全 114 件のコメント

[–]mckinnon30482009 Rabbit 2.5 82ポイント83ポイント  (5子コメント)

Car company sells dirtier cars than stated... Might go out of business, faces huge fines.

Bank creates largest global recession in the last 90 years... Gets billions in aid money

This planet is weird.

[–]dsn0wman'14 GLI, '04 Touareg V8 29ポイント30ポイント  (4子コメント)

If it was GM they'd be getting a bail out.

[–]PigSlam 17ポイント18ポイント  (2子コメント)

I guess VW should become an American company.

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]god_among_men2014 JSW TDI DSG 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    VW going under would be fairly bad for global markets, they'll get help if/when they need it. The worlds largest car company isn't going to fail because of this. They truly are "too big to fail."

    [–]MadMaxMercer 46ポイント47ポイント  (39子コメント)

    GM is fined $35mil for faulty parts that actually killed people, VW is fined over 500x that for pollution regulation violations? Nice.

    [–]notwhoithink 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    GM is fined $35mil for faulty parts that actually killed people, VW is fined over 500x that for pollution regulation violations? Nice.

    You might want to check that number again. They paid a $35 million dollar civil fine to NHTSA for being slow to recall the faulty parts in the ignition switch matter. This was literally the maximum civil fine allowed by law in this case. It just so happens that the laws that VW broke carried significantly larger potential penalties. These dollar figures are not arbitrarily made up, they are a matter of law. The EPA can fine up to $37,500 per car for deliberately violating the clean air act.

    By the way, you also forgot to mention the $900 million in criminal fines that GM had to pay for deliberately concealing the defects. They also wound up paying $575 million to settle the civil court cases for the 169 people who were killed due to their ignition switch issue.

    If you want we can revisit this issue when the fines are actually assessed and see how much VW actually gets fined by the U.S. government, and then we can see whose fine was bigger. Until then you're talking about hypotheticals.

    [–]notwhoithink 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

    VW hasn't been fined anything yet. Also, keep in mind that there is a difference between inadvertently faulty products and deliberately cheating the government.

    [–]MadMaxMercer 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Gm knew about the faulty parts, they changed the parts number to try and hide it yet issued no recall.

    [–]notwhoithink 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    GM got fined twice. They got slapped with a $35 million civil fine by NHTSA for being slow to issue the recall. That was literally the maximum fine that they could be given in this matter, by law.

    GM also got hit with a $900 million criminal fine for their criminal actions in this case. On top of that they were paying $575 million to settle most of the civil lawsuits brought by victims or their families. There were 169 deaths related to the ignition switch issue, so that comes out to about $3.4 million each. Not that this is an appropriate value for human life, but it is a substantial penalty.

    [–]mmiski2014 VW WE GTI 17ポイント18ポイント  (15子コメント)

    My mind still hasn't been able to fully process how quickly and badly this scandal escalated. You've got companies like Toyota and GM who got away with a slap on the wrist for issues resulting in several serious injuries and deaths. GM in particular knew damn well what they were doing beforehand and that made it all the more sickening. But when VW cheats the emissions system all of a sudden it's the end of the world. Wtf kind of assbackwards logic is that??

    I'm not saying VW should get away with lying at all. What they did was wrong and should be punished for it. But in the grand scheme of things I GM practically got away with murder, while VW is having the book thrown at them for an issue that didn't even kill any of its customers. Maybe I'm wrong with this assessment, but this leaves me with the impression that it's less about protecting consumers and peoples' lives and more about government agencies finding every opportunity to grab more money out of companies' pockets.

    [–]Morbidgrass2004.5 GLI[🍰] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I have my doubts a lot will happen. While government agencies would get money from fines I think a lot of politicians will be more worried about how many people will lose jobs in the areas they represent.

    [–]Brian-Puccio 4ポイント5ポイント  (10子コメント)

    while VW is having the book thrown at them for an issue that didn't even kill any of its customers

    True, a VW didn't mow someone down because of decisions made by the company.

    But my very basic understanding of the situation leads me to believe that this contributes to poorer health at a minimum:

    http://www3.epa.gov/airquality/nitrogenoxides/health.html

    ... and, depending on who you believe, does kill people (and not just its customers but anyone who breathes), possibly thousands:

    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/09/spreadsheet-day-how-many-people-did-vw-kill

    ... I don't know enough to decide myself, but I've got to figure that emission standards exist for a reason, not just because we're bored:

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/04/asia/china-beijing-blue-sky-disappears-after-military-parade/

    this leaves me with the impression that it's less about protecting consumers and peoples' lives and more about government agencies finding every opportunity to grab more money out of companies' pockets

    The EPA didn't find this out. According to some, the EPA only tests 15% of all models each year (which means after 7 years, they should have gone through all of the models):

    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100125_vw-diesel-emissions-recall-what-you-need-to-know-in-10-questions/page-3

    ... but some people think this is the US government's way to keep a trade advantage over the Germans or is possibly political retaliation.

    [–]Balzac_Onyerchin2011 TDI JSW 6MT. Black on Black. 5ポイント6ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Meanwhile in Murica: http://imgur.com/cPeV0T0

    No one bats an eye.

    [–]putzarino 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

    If you don't think that is illegal, I have a bridge to sell you.

    [–]HowdyAudi 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Is it a nice bridge?

    [–]Balzac_Onyerchin2011 TDI JSW 6MT. Black on Black. 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Back off; he offered it to me.

    edit: I am sure it must be illegal (I think it should be anyway). I live in the ass end of Eastern Washington state, and it can be a bit hillbilly around here and this sort of shit tends to be ignored. These are the same brodozers that rev menacingly at me while I am hogging "their" fuel pump.

    I just give a blank stare while jiggling the green hose. It usually shuts them up.

    [–]J_Schnetz"JTI" 20th REVO STG II 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Its funny because i'm pretty sure it not illegal. As long as it has catalytic converter it should be alright.

    [–]putzarino 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

    It's funny, because federal law, and most, if not all, US states makes it illegal to tamper with or disable emissions control systems.

    That includes cats, egr, and dpfs.

    [–]J_Schnetz"JTI" 20th REVO STG II 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    So it's illegal to buy an aftermarket exaust based on your definition of illegal

    [–]6890MKIV GTI 1.8T 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It is illegal in some locations. I'll dig out a link for ya once I'm off mobile

    EDIT: Here ya go

    [–]putzarino 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If you don't replace the exhaust system with something comparable, yes.

    [–]Markymark36MKV Rabbit 2.5 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    What about a spreadsheet of people who die from the amount of emissions that still enter the atmosphere through perfectly legal regulation? I have a hard time believing people died just from VW producing extra NOx

    [–]notwhoithink 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Every case is different. Toyota and GM had unintentionally defective products as opposed to deliberately cheating the emissions tests. Intent goes a long way here.

    As far as GMs cover-up, the laws that they got caught breaking were different than the laws that VW got caught breaking, the penalties will vary by statute.

    Finally, GM is (or has) had to pay out huge legal settlements for the people that were killed or injured by their faulty ignition systems. IIRC, there were only a hundred or so cases of that, most people who had ignition switch issues did not suffer damages from the case.

    [–]Supaflygti -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thank you!!!!!! I've been trying to explain this since the day this news was released!! The Obama administration relies heavily on the revenue being brought in by the over reaching hand that is the EPA. They saw this as an avenue to billions in profit and are exploiting it to the fullest. It's not only with auto makers...within the past year the EPA has tried to pass legislation that would grant government rights (read ownership) to any standing body of water on private or public property. This would result in one of the largest land grabs in recorded history. The EPA doesn't care about the health of you and I, only how to exploit the protection of our health for increased revenue.

    [–]I426Hemi 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I really hope not.

    [–]darksim905'04 2.0 GL BEV Jetta | CarChip | VCDS - New Jersey 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

    What is that article talking about regarding the 'parts' being used in this being made by Conti? BOSCH makes a large majority of the parts in VW vehicles & they're (usually) responsible for something like this. Are they talking about the parts required to retrofit the vehicles?

    [–]notwhoithink 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Continental and Bosch both make parts for VWs. Both have said that even if they provide parts that it's up to VW to configure the software to work with those parts, and that's a reasonable claim. Since neither Bosch nor Conti would be responsible for designing and building the entire engine and emissions system, there's no way that they could provide anything more than very generic software that then has to be modified my the manufacturer to meet their needs.

    [–]Segovax 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

    It may be telling that they're releasing this nugget ahead of the "fix announcement". I would not be surprised if we see a token mechanical remedy with modest to no compensation followed (in time) by bankruptcy protection.

    [–]notwhoithink 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I agree with the sentiment on the timing, but not about what the timing means. I think that they're making sure to get this idea of "this scandal could kill VW" into the public perception before they release their "plan" to the German authorities in the hopes that the perceived possibility of a bankruptcy will temper the government response (and possibly prime them for a bailout, if necessary). From a purely factual standpoint, this scandal DOES have the possibility of putting VW out of business. They're facing potentially $18 billion in fines (just in the U.S.), plus legal settlements for damages that will undoubtedly run into the billions, plus billions of dollars in expense to "fix" the issue. There will be investigations and more fines in the EU as well.

    Even if they manage to survive the fines and legal cases, they have already admitted that they are now cutting budgets. They have already said that they had been planning to spend $100 billion on R&D in the next 5 years, but now they're cutting the R&D budget (among other areas). That may not hurt them much today or tomorrow, but when 2020 rolls around they might end up being much less competitive than they would otherwise be.

    [–]Segovax 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    That's probably a more likely assessment. Using the announcement to prop up their position against the government(s). It also positions the new leadership in the role of savior if all goes well.

    [–]JettaGLi16v81 Rabbit Diesel Pickup, 78 Riviera camper bus, 74 THING (resto) 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    That would just be a death sentence.

    If they can't win back consumer confidence, they are sunk anyway.

    [–]Big_Test_Icicle 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Although sad where was this logic when they first thought of the idea? I get it that money was the biggest factor involved but this was sheer idiocy. Make a few million now collapse the company later and don't bring any money. It is better to make half of what they made for years then $0.

    [–]geordilaforge 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yeah, fucking geniuses who let this one play out.

    I just hope they can save their asses and maybe refund their customers or something.

    [–]dixadik 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Several engineers have admitted to creating the software aimed at cheating the tests, Germany's Bild am Sonntag newspaper reported Sunday.

    The real question I want answered is on whose order?

    [–]ATGGTCGATAATGAATCTTC2015 White Jetta Highline 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

    the problem i see with all the panicked flag raising surrounding all this is diesel packs twice the energy as gasoline. What size displacement gasoline engine would be needed to create the same torque as a 2l diesel? and how much pollution would that gasoline engine make in comparison. I don't think its accurate to compare a 2l diesel to a 2l gas, its apples and oranges. in my case that 2l diesel is keeping a 6l hemi off the road, as thats what i would have to buy to keep the same seat of the pants power as my tdi.

    [–]Markymark36MKV Rabbit 2.5 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Diesel does not have twice the energy per molecule as gasoline. The higher work output can be allotted to the high compression ratios on diesel engines, among other things .

    [–]ATGGTCGATAATGAATCTTC2015 White Jetta Highline 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    upon checking you are correct, gas 111kbtu diesel 128kbtu

    [–]dixadik 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    in my case that 2l diesel is keeping a 6l hemi off the road

    Not if you are talking NOx

    [–]ATGGTCGATAATGAATCTTC2015 White Jetta Highline 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    nox can easily eliminated in diesel, my water/meth system when running in boost mode exceeds the NOx performance of egr by orders of magnitude. when I went to get my emissions certified they made me prove it was the h2o/meth injection knocking the NOx down to unmeasurable levels. they thought i had some other defeat device on the car. use the right equipment for the right engine and you dont have problems.

    [–]whitefeather1403 Jetta TDI Wagon 5sp, 175k 11ポイント12ポイント  (19子コメント)

    The largest single automobile company in the world? SURE...

    Edit: by revenue and assets

    [–]Quentin718 15ポイント16ポイント  (18子コメント)

    Volkswagen owns Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, and other popular European brands. They're U.S. VW sales "only" account for 10% of their overall revenue stream. So yeah, Volkswagen Group is a pretty large automobile company.

    [–]Morbidgrass2004.5 GLI[🍰] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    While possible I am skeptical based purely on how many people they employ. Every governor who has a factory in their state is going to be on their side. Pretty much every politician who is in an area where VW employs lots of people will be on their side. When it comes down to laying people off politicians will act.

    [–]ArMcK 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Sometimes I wonder why business law is even a thing since we basically ignore it any chance we get.

    [–]Spsurgeon 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Something to consider. The US govt DOES NOT WANT small diesels with good milage to become popular in the US. Volkswagen was until this, threatening to make them popular. I own one of these 2013 diesel Golfs, of all the cars I have owned in 40 years of driving, its my favourite car. Lots of power, 50mpg (at 80mph) and quiet. This is all just silly banter unless, of course, gas prices go back to where there were.....

    [–]AbnormalousProspective TDI Customer 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I honestly can't wait for the inevitable increase in gas prices for everyone to come crawling back to diesel. It won't be such a dirty word in ten to fifteen years' time...

    [–]notwhoithink 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    In 10-15 years time the number of car owners in major cities will have declined by a fair bit, and the number of pure electric vehicles on the road will have skyrocketed. Sure, there will be plenty of gasoline and diesel vehicles on the road, but the era of the small diesel engine is winding to a close. Electric powered cars and small, turbocharged gasoline engines will displace a lot of small diesels.

    Let's put it this way, VW sells over 90% of all small diesel vehicles in the U.S, and over the past 6 years they've sold less than 500k of them in the United States. Americans aren't flocking to diesel, and after this they'll have even less reason to do so. As for Europe, one of the reasons they are so popular is due to the huge tax credits that the governments have been offering (at the behest of manufacturers like VW) to consumers who buy diesels. I don't expect that those sorts of programs will continue after this.

    [–]Suntory_Black 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Why not? I would think the US would want small diesels as bio fuel is probably around the corner and diesels are the most likely to take advantage of the locally produced fuel.

    [–]NDMagoo 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    You're arguing a very logical point regarding ecological sustainability, but this is not the primary concern for a government bought and paid for by the petroleum industry.

    [–]Suntory_Black 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The future is electric or hydrogen. Anything to keep fossil fuel motors relevant for a few more years would be encouraged by the petroleum industry. Game over is coming soon. Of course we'll always need some petroleum, but nothing like the demand now.

    [–]EvilLinux 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Exactly who in the US government is plotting to keep you from having small diesels with good mileage? Where is the payoff for them? Are you suggesting there is an anti-diesel lobby? And what are their long term motives in doing so?

    [–]notwhoithink 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The US govt DOES NOT WANT small diesels with good milage to become popular in the US.

    This may be the dumbest thing that I have read today. IT'S ALL A GUBMINT CON-SPEER-A-CY!!! OBAMA IS COMING FOR OUR DIESEL ENGINES!!! AND OUR GUNS!!! AND OUR WHITE WOMEN!!!

    [–]MR_Fook 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Rather than crippling fines just arrest the people responsible and put them through due process. VW parts are made in the US why put people out of a job for this?

    I do feel like this is just PR and an attempt being made for sympathy. I doubt they will end up paying more than a few billion.

    [–]AbnormalousProspective TDI Customer 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    People don't have large enough brains to know that a company is not a living, breathing, decision-making entity. Insidious people inside who are the ones who commit crimes, not the entire company. When it comes time for punishment though, people can't think beyond the VW logo to the individuals responsible for such a huge oversight.

    [–]notwhoithink 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    No, we're perfectly capable of thinking in those terms. This wasn't the actions of a couple of rogue software engineers, this was the effort of a fairly large number of people acting on the orders of a fairly high level executive. The problem is that individual criminal acts will not be a deterrent against corporate malfeasance. If a senior executive issues orders to underlings to violate the law, what incentive to the underlings have to report the illegal orders? What's to stop a clever executive from denying responsibility for the orders and blaming it on the underlings? If there are poor records and enough finger pointing then you end up with a case of the company breaking the law on an epic scale and nobody being punished for it.

    At the end of the day, the company is the entity that is responsible. It's the company that stands to gain from illegal activity, and therefore it makes sense for the company to be punished. If you have ever worked a major company (and I'm talking Fortune 100-sized) they have all sorts of education and certification programs around corporate and legal compliance. The amount of time they spend trying to drill into employees (even rank and file peons) their legal obligations and the potential costs to the company for non-compliance is mind-numbing. Companies of this size know what they are responsible for doing, and they have systems in place to ensure that everyone knows their role in ensuring compliance with applicable laws.

    [–]Freeroot 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I have a question. I just happen to own and drive a VW TDI... What does all this mean for me?

    [–]AbnormalousProspective TDI Customer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Overall? The resale value has just taken a hit, even for compliant diesels. If you have your car fitted with the EA 189 engine (1.6 or 2.0 4-cylinder engine), you're a "polluter." Any other diesel (sixes and eights found in larger VW models) needs no further action.

    If you live in the EU (and more specifically the UK), there'll be a recall to have your car retrofitted with new software and maybe a different fuel pump. This will decrease your performance and efficiency, but I don't suppose it will be a huge hit to the 50+MPG and 140HP. In the US, a plan of action is due to be announced on Wednesday, but all cars are safe and legal to drive.

    [–]Eaders'90 Golf VR6; '10 Golf 2.5L; '93 Passat IDI -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Looks to me like the top execs would rather see the company fail then adjust their payrates.

    [–]goldandguns 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Are you seriously arguing that a few hundred million in pay is going to change the course of a company worth tens of billions of dollars?

    [–]h2g2Ben 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The company lost $34 billion in valuation, and faces potential fines of up to $18 billion in the US alone - let alone EU. There's no paycut in the world that would save VW if regulators came down hard on them.

    [–]m4050m3 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Sad to hear, but maybe this is what they need. Obviously there has been corruption in the company and who knows what other issues. Maybe they need a restructuring.