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[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child)

How to start an argument in this subreddit: Ask for definitions.

Elsewhere the answer is both, at different times and in different contexts. Personally I use the term transsexual to differentiate physical discomfort with just role discomfort. Most transsexuals are both, but most that are transgender are not transsexual.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How to start an argument in this subreddit: Ask for definitions.

Funny

[–]interiotnonbinary/transfem, attracted to women and androgynous folks 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Many people use the word "transgender" as an umbrella term, something that covers many forms of gender variance, from people who want all possible medical interventions, to folks who don't want any medical intervention, and possibly including folks who present as gender-variant for a small percentage of the time.

However, many crossdressers don't self-identify as transgender, even if other people might suggest they fall under that heading. I firmly believe that everyone should self-ID however they want, because nobody else knows what an individual feels inside. And speaking on behalf of someone else causes invisibilization and erasure.

[–]patienceinbee…an empty sky, an empty sea, a violent place for us to be… 2 points3 points  (15 children)

I operate on and have advanced on reddit a foundation that gender is a language.

It is a special language because it it endemic to human socialization and all but precedes spoken/written communication. I would even go as far to hypothesize that gender and our evolution to becoming a social genus (Homo, not just Homo sapiens sapiens) are possibly interconnected.

But anyway. Gender has principal dialects, usually no more than a handful in any given culture. The most recognizable and universal dialects are femininity and masculinity. These dialects constitute a huge foundation for spoken languages, some more so than others. A few cultures have had additional dialects of gender which are part of those localized societies. This can help to comprehend usefully why Thailand, India, and elsewhere today have a third recognized dialect of gender; a few isolated places may have a fourth.

For most people, they only end up being taught and using one dialect of gender their entire lives. These are cisgender people. For a few, they pick up, learn, and use a new, second dialect of gender. These are transgender people.

Within each dialect of gender there are limitless accents. Accents are how we interact according to the audience. How one articulates their dialect of gender varies when it's your boss, your parents, your lover, or your child. An accent you might use with your lover in bed would probably be ill-appropriate at work. No matter the accent, though, the dialect (of either femininity or masculinity) will be immediately recognizable to others.

This is why one cannot escape gender or be genderless: it is everywhere in how we as humans see the world around us, how we construct our functional realities, and in how we see other people (as well as ourselves). To eschew gender is to eschew the social world. It is, as I've painfully said here a couple of times recently, a bit like the Matrix (which has me wincing for self-evident reasons).

This understanding of gender, the language, also forecloses on the (constantly controversial, never fixed, and responsible for silencing minorities, etc.) "gender is an umbrella" model — a model which only found its footing some short 20 years ago. It is not a universally acknowledged framework.

That said, unless there's overwhelming consensus, then a model predicated on the idea of "inclusion" still manages to exclude or silence people in the process.

Whether gender-as-language shall become an acceptable framework is to be known, but it carries the unique distinction of including everybody, and it removes an umbrella hierarchy in favour of orthogonal relationships between the social part of humanity and the congenital aspects of physical (i.e., brain and body) sex. These can be for a separate discussion.

[–]echochambr 4 points5 points  (1 child)

since you seem to be serious about this, what do you see as the utility of this framework? do you mean to propose it is an actual language (i.e., one that would be accepted by linguists as fitting their criteria)? is it more useful to trans people (and people in general) to think of gender in linguistic rather than scientific terms? i am new to this reddit so if you've discussed this already please feel free to link me to your previous posts.

it carries the unique distinction of including everybody, and it removes an umbrella hierarchy in favour of orthogonal relationships

julia serano (a molecular biologist and trans woman) has a scientific model of gender that also does this. quoting from her book Whipping Girl:

  1. Subconscious sex [i.e. brain sex], gender expression, and sexual orientation represent separate gender inclinations that are determined largely independently of one another.
  2. These gender inclinations are, to some extent, intrinsic to our persons, as they occur on a deep, subconscious level and generally remain intact despite social influences and conscious attempts by individuals to purge, repress, or ignore them.
  3. Because no single genetic, anatomical, hormonal, environmental, or psychological factor has ever been found to directly cause any of these gender inclinations, we can assume they are quantitative traits (i.e., multiple factors determine them through complex interactions). As a result, rather than producing discrete classes (such as feminine and masculine; attraction to women or men), each inclination shows a continuous range of possible outcomes.
  4. Each of these inclinations roughly correlates with physical sex, resulting in a bimodal distribution pattern (i.e., two overlapping bell curves) similar to that seen for other gender differences, such as height.

Because these inclinations appear to have multiple inputs and show a continuous range of outcomes, it is incorrect to assume that those with exceptional sexual orientations, subconscious sexes, or gender expressions represent developmental, biological, or environmental "errors"; rather, they are naturally occurring examples of human variation.

i can appreciate your language model as an analogy, but i think this set of scientific facts seems to be more useful in terms of moving us towards political and social progress.

[–]patienceinbee…an empty sky, an empty sea, a violent place for us to be… 0 points1 point  (0 children)

since you seem to be serious about this, what do you see as the utility of this framework? do you mean to propose it is an actual language (i.e., one that would be accepted by linguists as fitting their criteria)? is it more useful to trans people (and people in general) to think of gender in linguistic rather than scientific terms? i am new to this reddit so if you've discussed this already please feel free to link me to your previous posts.

As for this working model, which has been sort of browbeaten here in this reddit for a while now, the utility of so doing is to present scholars with a reasonably informed hypothesis (predicated here on other scholarly frameworks and bringing them together in a novel relationship) on which to approach the kind of interdisciplinary research that would be absolutely imperative to confirming, clarifying, refuting, and finding causal relationships behind the big picture contained by the model.

That you mentioned Julia Serano is not a surprise. The framework on which this model is built — and the rationale for making this argument — pivots on at least three key scholars:

1) On the orthogonal — rather than "umbrella" — relationship between one having a cissexual or transsexual body, versus whether one is cisgender or transgender, I am turning to Dr. Viviane Namaste's work; in particular, Sex Change, Social Change, which I have mentioned in greater detail elsewhere on this reddit.

2) On the distinction and significance of neurological sex and body/morphological sex being the key concerns with which most people need to be concerned, this is where Dr. Julia Serano's tome comes into play. Semantics are minimally different, but where she refers to "subconscious sex", I am referring to as "neurological sex". I go with this because of the tangible, correlative peer review on encephalic (brain) structures which appear consistently distinct for people with transsexual bodies which are not generally present on their cissexual counterparts. And where Serano uses "conscious sex", I refer to similar with "morphological sex." The basic model agrees with Serano's hypothesis. This was similarly raised in another reddit discussion — one which did have a slightly tetchy exchange.

3) With the hypothesis that gender is a language, this turns to Noam Chomsky's theory of Language Acquisition Device and he human ability to pick up a language, but only within a certain window of time. I made mention to this in an earlier discussion. To advance that gender precedes spoken language is a heady proposition and one which will take anthropological linguists many minds and many years to determine whether this framework holds any merit.

i can appreciate your language model as an analogy, but i think this set of scientific facts seems to be more useful in terms of moving us towards political and social progress.

And as far as "scientific facts" pertain to linguistics, I think you would need to be a little more thorough with the clarity of your argument. Linguistics is a social science and not one as clean and neat as a quantitative science.

[–]kejo 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Do you have a blog?

[–]patienceinbee…an empty sky, an empty sea, a violent place for us to be… 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No, but I've been thinking about it.

[–]taranov2007[S] 0 points1 point  (10 children)

But isn't there a difference between the terms sex and gender and gender presentation?

[–]patienceinbee…an empty sky, an empty sea, a violent place for us to be… 1 point2 points  (3 children)

There is a difference between morphological/body sex (i.e., the genitals), neurological/brain sex, and the articulation — or communication — of gender.

This is general response: the problem with terms "sex", "gender", and "gender presentation" is that they all mean very different things to very different people, social conventions, and institutions. And because of this inconsistency in meaning and agreed understanding, the ideas and concepts trying to be conveyed by these arbitrarily used phrases suffer a lot for being lost in a bad translation.

Take, for instance, "gender" and "gender presentation": what do these actually mean? And to whom? And in what language? How do they differ from one another? Why do some legal jurisdictions inconsistently (and interchangeably) refer to "sex" as "gender" and then once in a while refer to "sex" as "sex" as it suits their ends?

I don't think this embedded ambiguity (that is, in usage, in comprehension, etc.) is accidental, but neither do I think it is intentional or even conscious on behalf of most people.

[–]echochambr 1 point2 points  (2 children)

yes, there is a difference between the way academics use these words (which the trans community has largely shaped and adopted) as compared to legal institutions, the general public, etc. but don't you agree that trans people should take a stand on which definitions most accurately reflect our own experiences and communicate those definitions to others (especially when they ask us about them directly)? whether we like it or not every major institutional decision about our rights and freedoms is made by cissexual people, and progress towards equal rights depends on being able to communicate with them. accurate, useful language is also crucial for communicating with other members of our own communities and in the formation of our own identities.

[–]patienceinbee…an empty sky, an empty sea, a violent place for us to be… 0 points1 point  (1 child)

but don't you agree that trans people should take a stand on which definitions most accurately reflect our own experiences and communicate those definitions to others (especially when they ask us about them directly)?

Indeed. This is my stand. I have a transsexual body. I am a cisgender woman. I never learnt how to properly articulate a masculine dialect of gender, and this inability did not come without some consequence.

[–]echochambr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

cool, thanks for elaborating. :)

[–]echochambr 1 point2 points  (5 children)

sex is whether a person is physically male or female, based on physical traits (including chromosomes, hormones, reproductive system, etc.)

gender (a.k.a. gender identity) is whether somebody identifies as female, male, both, neither, etc.

gender presentation (a.k.a gender expression and gender roles) describes whether a person acts feminine, masculine, both, neither, etc.

[–]catamorphismLiterally the unique homomorphism from an initial F-algebra 1 point2 points  (4 children)

The brain is also a physical trait; thus trans men are physically male, and trans women are physically female.

Chromosomes, hormones, reproductive systems don't really enter into it -- they only get brought up when a trans person is asked to "prove" their sex. Cissexual people get the privilege of having their internal neurological sex recognized without having to present any additional (chromosomal, hormonal, reproductive...) evidence.

[–]echochambr 1 point2 points  (3 children)

yes, brain sex is another physical trait that constitutes physical sex. i also agree with you that there is no objective reason to prioritize genital appearance when it comes to determining physical sex, and i do consider my brain sex (male) to make me physically, biologically male.

however, this:

Chromosomes, hormones, reproductive systems don't really enter into it

is an oversimplification. of course these things also constitute physical sex, otherwise males and females would have the same bodies. doctors don't test your chromosomes to determine the sex they assign you at birth, nor do chromosomes necessarily have anything to do with your brain sex, but that doesn't mean they aren't sex characteristics.

[–]catamorphismLiterally the unique homomorphism from an initial F-algebra 2 points3 points  (1 child)

People who aren't hip to trans issues still recognize that a person's sex is male or female based on their gendered presentation, which (unless someone is trans and being forced to live as their assigned gender) is how they communicate their internal, neurological sex. Such people are happy to say that someone's sex is male or female without ever having seen or seen evidence of their chromosomes, hormonal levels, genitals, or reproductive organs.

That's why I say that anything other than brain sex is irrelevant in most situations where people believe sex to be relevant. Of course, reproductive organs matter if you are trying to get pregnant, and hormones matter for your personal well-being. It's just that to the extent that your sex is anyone else's concern, it's your brain sex that's relevant.

[–]echochambr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

People who aren't hip to trans issues still recognize that a person's sex is male or female based on their gendered presentation, which (unless someone is trans and being forced to live as their assigned gender) is how they communicate their internal, neurological sex.

people don't communicate "my neurological sex is male" with their gender presentation. to the general public, a masculine gender presentation on a man (for example, a leather jacket) might communicate toughness, aggression, etc., while a feminine gender presentation on a man (for example, a man wearing a dress) most likely is interpreted as communicating homosexuality. People look to physical characteristics (i.e. sex characteristics), not gender presentation, to determine if someone is male or female. If this wasn't true, then any woman who cuts her hair and wears masculine clothing would be perceived as a man.

Such people are happy to say that someone's sex is male or female without ever having seen or seen evidence of their chromosomes, hormonal levels, genitals, or reproductive organs.

all of those things determine the sex-related cues we give off though. hormones are responsible for secondary sex characteristics in adults and result in prominent sex markers such as beard growth, adam's apple, etc. high testosterone levels in a woman could result in development of traits that are typical of men and might cause her to be mistaken for a man (e.g. a bodybuilder using steroids who has a deep voice and masculinized facial features). similarly, strangers won't ask to see what's in your pants before they decide if you're male or female, but a bulge in a trans woman's jeans could (and has) lead people to decide she's "really a man." anyways, regardless of your point about whether people see these factors on the surface and judge your sex by them, they still constitute biological differentiation of sex. are you arguing against that? or are you just trying to argue that in most cases most people are oblivious to them?

It's just that to the extent that your sex is anyone else's concern, it's your brain sex that's relevant.

you're arguing for the primacy of brain sex in establishing how we define the concept of sex. i agree with that. the fact is, there are other sexually dimorphic traits beyond just brain sex (hormones, reproductive systems, etc.), which happen to be distributed in such a way that they all roughly correlate with each other most of the time. they are characteristics of sex even if they're not the one you or i would consider the primary defining characteristic of sex (i.e., brain sex).

[–]patienceinbee…an empty sky, an empty sea, a violent place for us to be… 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Of course this is a simplification, but it is a useful way of helping keep the water clear enough for people who lack specialized knowledge of concepts like phenotype, genotype, encephalic, chromosomal and so on, to wrap their head around these core ideas. These mean little to most in any kind of meaningful, conveyable sense (i.e., if you can't explain it to your grandparent or nieces and nephews, then it's probably too complex).

For purposes of cutting to an unambiguous point — for the core point that very few people outside of academia actually even comprehend chromosomes, hormones, etc. — the two sexes which are most germane to the dialectics of how and why a transsexual body comes to be are the body's sex (which for sake of simplicity with lay discussion includes reproductive capabilities) and neurological sex (which is what badly trips up most people in practically limitless variations).

Chromosomes are an instruction set. While this may be apparent to you and others who are keeping up with this discussion, it isn't to most others. The idea that chromosomes are some sort of essence or marker of individual cells as "male" or "female" (I have had people try to explain this to me in their comprehension of how a trans person can't ever be their transitioned sex — without them knowing that they were speaking to someone with a transsexual body) is why some have argued that a transsexual man is still a "woman", and vice-versa, all because of an instruction set which they believe radically alters the chemical composition of a cell so as to think of a trans person as "tainted" by their "real sex"— and why a cissexual man vaginally penetrating a trans woman in a heterosexual moment of intimacy so disgusts some of them.

Because of this poor comprehension of chromosomes and genetics generally, we have actually begun seeing policy and law being written and predicated around a concept that most of those promulgating these rulings fail to understand. It has become harmful towards non-cissexual and even non-cisgender people.

This is why, for casual discussion, keeping it simple (stupid) is the most important tool we have to explain how and why we are, and how genetics was not the arbiter for why some of us have a transsexual body today.

[–]sugarandslugs -1 points0 points  (31 children)

It's not at all clear what the scope of your question is. Are you someone who knows nothing about anything trans related and are asking for a trans 101 introduction, or are you trying to debate the finer nuances of terminology?

Have you read the Wikipedia page describing the term transgender?

It looks to me like you're after basic trans 101 material (i.e., wanting to have basics explained to you), but the answers you're getting so far (e.g., Patience with her “gender is language” PoV) are more of the definitional-debate kind.

[–]taranov2007[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I've heard the basics - I just thought that people seemed to use two different definitions, so I wanted a clarification. Turns out that I was confused for a reason, since people do use gender to mean either the way one identifies physically versus more of a personality thing.

[–]sugarandslugs 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Well, there are different aspects to gender, including:

  • Gender presentation (what sex you appear to be)
  • Gender role (how well you meet gender-stereotyped behavior)
  • Gender identity (a.k.a. subconscious sex, the subconscious, intrinsic, self-understanding that all people experience regarding their own sex embodiment)

When someone just says gender by itself, people usually have to infer which of these aspects they're taking about.

[–]taranov2007[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This makes sense. Thanks!

[–]patienceinbee…an empty sky, an empty sea, a violent place for us to be… 0 points1 point  (27 children)

Well, considering how rich the internet is with variations on the same popular definitions for transgender, I actually thought an space of engagement and discussion is what reddit is for. If someone just wants a living Wikipedia, then perhaps they should consult with Wikipedia.

That said, when someone asks a question like that here, they are going to get the responses expected of a varied selection of people who will have different ways of knowing, experiencing, and seeing.

(e.g., Patience with her “gender is language” PoV)

That was dismissive. Please reserve your use of scare quotes.

[–]sugarandslugs 0 points1 point  (26 children)

I actually thought an space of engagement and discussion is what reddit is for.

But there are different levels of engagement. How nuanced an opinion I give on something is governed in large part by who I am talking to. For example, if some largely ignorant cis person wanders in and wants to know what the deal is with trans people, I'll probably present things relatively straightforwardly. But, the truth is that privately I find a lot of the explanations we give at best tenuously proven, and at worst unconvincing, as explored in my blog post I Don’t “Get It” Either. (Of course, that's not to say that transphobic people don't have even less evidence to support their bigotry.)

Thus, asking the OP what sort of explanation they're looking for seems sensible to me.

(e.g., Patience with her “gender is language” PoV)

That was dismissive. Please reserve your use of scare quotes.

I'd far prefer it if you wrote “I read that as dismissive, and your quotes as scare quotes”. I'll take on board that you read it that way. I'd appreciate it if you likewise recognize that there are other interpretations, such as calling out your comment might actually mean that I consider it one of the more notable ones in the thread, and that “gender is a language” is about the most pithy quote I can take that summarizes your position. Quotes are not automatically “scary”.

FWIW, I'm mostly ambivalent about your gender is a language point of view — it's an interesting take. Your attempts to redefine words like cisgender I find more problematic and at odds with common usage (e.g., the way you've advanced the notion of cisgender transsexual women), although I think I understand where you're coming from — namely, the desire for our language to have more of a sane logical foundation, rather than the unruly evolved consensus definitions that we actually have. Honestly, I don't really mind when someone says they wish flammable and inflammable meant different things, but it bugs me when someone tells everyone that they do mean different things because they wish it were so.

[–]echochambr 2 points3 points  (16 children)

Your attempts to redefine words like cisgender I find more problematic and at odds with common usage (e.g., the way you've advanced the notion of cisgender transsexual women)

There is no redefinition involved in recognizing that transsexual women and men can also be cisgendered. I am a binary-identified, masculine transsexual man, and my gender happens to be very normative and always has been. Being a part of this community does not automatically mean I am gender-variant or that I am transgendered. The umbrella term "transgender" is just the name we use for the political coalition between the different groups of us who face similar types of gender-based discrimination. The term we chose for the umbrella could have just as easily been abbreviated as "trans," in which case there would be no confusion here.

[–]TraumaPonyLieutenant of the Queer Mafia 0 points1 point  (15 children)

Cisgender doesn't mean you have a binary gender.

[–]echochambr 0 points1 point  (14 children)

you're right, it doesn't. cisgender means you have a gender that is conventional for your sex in the society you inhabit. masculine trans men with normatively masculine genders are not automatically transgendered if we are not gender-variant, don't transgress gender norms, don't defy societal expectations for men, etc. and just to add in a bit of history, when the word "transgender" was initially coined by Virginia Price, it was pointedly anti-transsexual. just because people use it as a community name doesn't mean that it describes my gender. this is why i prefer "trans" as the umbrella term.

[–]sugarandslugs 0 points1 point  (13 children)

From Wikipedia,

Kristen Schilt and Laurel Westbrook defined "cisgender" as a label for "individuals who have a match between the gender they were assigned at birth, their bodies, and their personal identity", complementing "transgender".

So, if your gender identity doesn't match the sex you were assigned at birth, it's not so clear that you can lay claim to the label cisgender.

But, like all these things, people don't seem to entirely agree. I'd argue that if you see transgender as an umbrella term, then cisgender counts those people not under the umbrella. If you see transgender as being more specific somehow, then you can call more people cisgender.

If you see transgendered and transgender as different, then presumably the same difference ought to apply to cisgendered and cisgender.

Personally, I'm waiting for people to lay claim to the identity of cisgenderist.

[–]catamorphismLiterally the unique homomorphism from an initial F-algebra 0 points1 point  (1 child)

From one of the authors of the Wikipedia article which you quote, I chose Schilt and Westbrook's definition more or less arbitrarily out of the set of definitions in a credible, published source that I could find easily. They don't own the word "cisgender"; you don't, I don't. Just like the kids these days might use "sick" to refer to something that is cool or awesome rather than something that is experiencing disease, the meanings of words can change by popular consensus.

It's a pretty risky thing to use Wikipedia in support of a linguistic land-grab, as anyone could cause it to vanish out from under you. It's pretty amusing as well, given that the concept of an encyclopedia that anyone can edit is quite opposed to the dream of a centralized authority that determines the meanings of words once and for all.

[–]sugarandslugs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Umm, that's why I had those other paragraphs, and said “But, like all these things, people don't seem to entirely agree.” If we can't agree what transgender means, and we can't (nothwithstanding the fact that all participants are hanging out here on asktransgender), it's no surprise that there's no universal agreement on cisgender either.

[–]echochambr -1 points0 points  (10 children)

Kristen Schilt and Laurel Westbrook defined "cisgender" as a label for "individuals who have a match between the gender they were assigned at birth, their bodies, and their personal identity", complementing "transgender".

why do you want a person's current gender identity to be automatically defined by a cissexist and inaccurate assignment of their sex at birth? you'd be pretty unhappy if someone was to say that your gender will always be that of a man because you were assigned male at birth, regardless of the fact that you're living as a woman now. saying a transsexual person is automatically transgendered based on their assignment at birth is making the exact same argument. is that progressive? how useful is that in light of the fact that there are increasing numbers of trans people transitioning as children and living shorter lengths of time being perceived as the wrong sex? how useful is that when in my adult life now, i am never perceived as gender-variant, and move through the world perceived as a normatively masculine straight man? calling me transgendered makes about as much sense as calling me a lesbian, because the only way you could say that i'm gender-variant is if you think of me on some level as a woman.

if you like quotes, here's one by Dr. Viviane Namaste (herself a trans woman):

"The term transgender is now so overdetermined as to exclude the majority of transsexuals." [From her book Sex Change, Social Change (2005), p. 21]

and one from Dr. Julia Serano (also a trans woman):

The far-reaching inclusiveness of the word "transgender" was purposely designed to accommodate the many gender and sexual minorities who were excluded from the previous feminist and gay rights movements. At the same time, its broadness can be highly problematic in that it often blurs or erases the distinctiveness of its constituents ... Thus, the best way to reconcile the nebulous nature of the word is to recognize that it is primarily a political term, one that brings together disparate classes of people to fight for the common goal of ending all discrimination based on sex/gender variance. While useful politically, transgender is too vague of a word to imply much commonality between individual people's identities, life experiences, or understanding of gender ... Many transsexuals disavow the term because of its anti-transsexual roots or because they feel that the transgender movement tends to privilege those identities, actions, and appearances that most visibly "transgress" gender norms. This tendency renders invisible the fact that many of us struggle more with issues related to our physical femaleness or maleness than we do with our expressions of femininity or masculinity. [from Whipping Girl (2007) p. 25-27]

you wrote:

But, like all these things, people don't seem to entirely agree.

of course we don't all agree. that's why we need to be having this conversation. we need to at least understand the implications of the words we're using in order to make informed choices about which to use.

I'd argue that if you see transgender as an umbrella term, then cisgender counts those people not under the umbrella. If you see transgender as being more specific somehow, then you can call more people cisgender.

if the word transgender includes all people who are gender-variant (genderqueers, cross-dressers, drag performers, feminine men, and so on), whether you want to call that an umbrella or not, then cisgender includes all people who are not gender-variant. thus cisgender is a term that includes some but not all transsexual people. obviously some transsexuals are also transgender on account of being gender-variant.

[–]sugarandslugs 1 point2 points  (9 children)

I'm pretty much exactly on the same page as Serrano (thanks for the quote!). I think that because at the very least some people construe it broadly, and many of us have to do so at least some of the time, I cede to the broad definition of transgender.

If you construe it narrowly in the way that some here seem to want to, as present gender variance, yes, its not a term that applies to many transsexuals. Outside of the a possibly androgyny period around transition, I'd argue that most transsexuals aren't out there transgressing gender norms or deliberately attempting to be a showcase of gender variance.

Yet many people don't construe it that narrowly. Transsexuals usually do have history where at some point they crossed from one gender presentation to another, thus the transgender label can also be seen as applying to them, even if it is not the most specific or useful label to use.

And, when I look here on reddit, at who is participating on r/asktransgender and r/transgender, it isn't so much a haven for genderqueers, cross-dressers, drag performers, feminine men, and so on, but is occupied largely by transsexuals. Thus there's a certain irony to seeing a discussion here where people say “the term ‘transgender’ doesn't apply to me!”.

Because the term transgender is so open to interpretation and misunderstanding, I think that it's largely useless as a label to use to identify oneself — no one knows what you mean without further elaboration. If you have to go around saying “when I say it, it means this” (and in essence, that's exactly what you do need to do), you might as well use another label. If you're genderqueer, say genderqueer. If you're butch, say butch. And so on.

Is it useful for anything then? I'm with Serrano, who says (as you quoted):

Thus, the best way to reconcile the nebulous nature of the word is to recognize that it is primarily a political term, one that brings together disparate classes of people to fight for the common goal of ending all discrimination based on sex/gender variance.

[–]echochambr 1 point2 points  (8 children)

I'm pretty much exactly on the same page as Serrano

then you would use "trans" as the umbrella instead of "transgender" for this reason, as Serano does.

If you construe it narrowly in the way that some here seem to want to, as present gender variance, yes, its not a term that applies to many transsexuals ... Yet many people don't construe it that narrowly.

Gender-variant is an accepted synonym for transgender, so i'm not narrowly redefining anything here. And, as I've quoted above, prominent trans academics also see it this way (i.e. that transsexual people are not automatically transgendered), so it's not as if I'm talking about some fringe viewpoint.

people lump us under the umbrella because (1) we are all working towards similar goals and they forget/ignore that we're not just one monolithic group, and/or (2) they're making the same "but you used to be perceived differently" argument that you're making, which i'll address below.

let me be clear here. i absolutely do agree that transsexual people belong in this political coalition of those "disparate classes of people to fight for the common goal of ending all discrimination based on sex/gender variance," as Serano puts it. somebody decided to name that coalition "the transgender community" even though transsexuals are not automatically transgendered. they could have just as easily named it the "trans community" or a variety of other possible names.

Transsexuals usually do have history where at some point they crossed from one gender presentation to another, thus the transgender label can also be seen as applying to them

there are several problems with this argument. (1) i've always had a normatively masculine gender presentation. while my outward sex characteristics have changed, my gender has never changed. that makes me a transsexual man but not transgendered. i have the same haircut, wear the same clothes, have the same style, have the same masculine hobbies (and so on) as i did before i medically transitioned. the other problem is (2), saying "you used to at some point be ___ so that still applies to you now" is wrong. can you not see how this logic is also transphobic? that's like saying to a trans woman "at some point you were a man, so that label still applies to you now." this is the same thinking that keeps trans women out of women's spaces (e.g. the "you have male socialization" argument), and allows trans men into women's spaces.

And, when I look here on reddit, at who is participating on r/asktransgender and r/transgender, it isn't so much a haven for genderqueers, cross-dressers, drag performers, feminine men, and so on, but is occupied largely by transsexuals. Thus there's a certain irony to seeing a discussion here where people say “the term ‘transgender’ doesn't apply to me!”.

why is that ironic? is this reddit only open to participation from self-identified transgender individuals? if transgendered people are trying to dictate the terms of my transsexual identity, do you think it's ironic that i (i.e. a transsexual person) would want to engage them in a conversation about it? the bottom line is, even though i am years post-transition and am long past the time of needing information or support from the community, i continue to participate because i care that others need information and support. i believe, as Serano stated, that "transgender" is a political term under which a variety of groups of people can support each other and organize for social change. i fully acknowledge that transsexuals are and should be a part of this community. i've repeated this point several times, but if people called the umbrella "trans" i'd have no issue with it. that's what Serano does, who you claim to be "pretty much exactly on the same page as." but what i most want from this discussion is for people to acknowledge that transsexual and transgendered people are distinct but overlapping groups, with different identities and needs. Viviane Namaste, for example, always says "transsexual and transgendered people" when she talks about our community, and i appreciate that.

[–]patienceinbee…an empty sky, an empty sea, a violent place for us to be… 0 points1 point  (8 children)

(e.g., Patience with her “gender is language” PoV)

I'd far prefer it if you wrote “I read that as dismissive, and your quotes as scare quotes”.

Well, since splitting hairs is about to become the new black, I don't possess the idea that gender is a language (an idea really cannot be possessed). The grievance I expressed was not limited to your use of scare quotes.

Not saying, but saying. Thanks.

[–]sugarandslugs 0 points1 point  (7 children)

I don't possess the idea that gender is a language (an idea really cannot be possessed).

What? Did anyone say that the idea was your exclusive property? I was merely point out that you have advanced a the idea that gender is a language — you've said as much yourself:

I operate on and have advanced on reddit a foundation that gender is a language.

Also, while you're not the only person to say these words and don't own the idea, when I look at reddit, it appears from a quick Google search that you're the only one saying it here.

The grievance I expressed was not limited to your use of scare quotes.

Well, to use your own words, I suggest you try to “Have a better one...”.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What? Did anyone say that the idea was your exclusi

Patience was just trying to show you what splitting hairs looks like... (<3 subtle bitchiness)

It looks to me like you're after basic trans 101 materia

And the OP said they werent here for trans 101.

Let's not fight...

[–]sugarandslugs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And the OP said they werent here for trans 101.

I don't think the OP had said that at the time I wrote my comment, otherwise I wouldn't have asked the question I asked.

Let's not fight...

I'm all for not fighting. I am in favor of discussion though, and I don't think we should be afraid of hearing different points of view from our peers, or probing those points of view to better understand them.

I think it really helps if in those discussions we try to avoid vilifying each other.

[–]patienceinbee…an empty sky, an empty sea, a violent place for us to be… 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Go read some Roland Barthes and "Death of the Author" (a wikipedia précis here).

[–]sugarandslugs 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Go read some Roland Barthes and "Death of the Author"

If you don't believe in linking ideas to their advocates, why would you mention that Death of an Author was by Roland Barthes?

[–]patienceinbee…an empty sky, an empty sea, a violent place for us to be… 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Barthes argued that any text, once created, is divorced from the creator. That I mentioned this in the context of Barthes is because there are still signifiers with which one must resolve to make sense of, in this case, the origin of a semiotics theory. Post-structuralist scholars are sort of taught that "Death of the Author", the essay, was not from the mind of an anonymous. It was from the pen of Barthes. But once the text was written, Barthes argued, it was no longer his to possess, nor was it him or any manifestation thereof. It was an artefact which he no longer owned — if ever he did (and I believe he would have argued that no, it was never his to own).

And yes, when you're learning this for the first time, it's slightly hard to wrap one's noodle around the idea.

[–]sugarandslugs 0 points1 point  (1 child)

it's slightly hard to wrap one's noodle around the idea[s of post-structuralist scholarship and semiotics theory as presented in Death of the Author]

Well, I hope you found the challenge worth it.

Could you highlight why these distinctions are important to make in this context?

[–]patienceinbee…an empty sky, an empty sea, a violent place for us to be… 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, because going into a meta-analysis any deeper into Barthes is getting off-topic.