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[–]chubbysuperbikerIT Director 1469 points1470 points  (168 children)

So let me get this straight, not only is this a massive security bug that unpatched could let a VM write to another VM, but patched it will incur a 30+% performance hit?

Goddamnit 2018 you were supposed to be better than 2017.

[–]Patriotaus 749 points750 points  (92 children)

Only if you use Intel (99% of the market)

[–]meatwad75892Trade of All Jacks 578 points579 points  (58 children)

RIP Opteron. In other news, that one admin that pushed for EPYC is going to be so smug today.

[–]excalibur_zd 154 points155 points  (29 children)

They will never be doubted again in the future!

[–]Start_button 78 points79 points  (26 children)

Hey, you dropped this "/s".

[–]ihsw 147 points148 points  (24 children)

Speaking as someone that bought into the hype of Opteron Bulldozer, I can understand the skepticism directed at AMD. It ran like a fucking dog and it dispersed heat like no tomorrow. Seven years ago, nobody gave a shit about sixteen-cores because AMD screwed the pooch with a god damned awful product.

AMD embraced their bullshit by screaming more cores are better but then Intel ate their lunch (and dinner, and everything but the smallest scraps for the next 7 years).

Thankfully, Zen and, consequently, ThreadRipper, are something worth looking at. The work on ThreadRipper guaranteed Epyc to be a decent product.

[–]starmizzleS-1-5-420-512 38 points39 points  (7 children)

Not sure what kind of performance you expected from a CPU named "Bulldozer". =P

[–]Nkechinyerembi 45 points46 points  (5 children)

I mean, it doesn't embody the nature of "speed" or anything. More like subscribes to the method of "throw power at it and eventually something will happen"

[–]Lhun 19 points20 points  (4 children)

IT is truly like the difference between a V8 and a turbocharged 4 banger, though - the problem is nobody had the tires to handle the torque on the V8 and they just did burnouts everywhere and never did any work. AMD provided the tools to make things run on their hardware BETTER AND FASTER then intel and nvidia and everyone said "fuck that I'm using gameworks and cuda, and fuck your compiler I'll use the one that specifically targets intel". The "GENERIC" most commonly used C++ compiler and the people who write it are guilty of this, even. Without intel specific optimization exe's compiled properly for AMD perform incredibly fast.

[–]tiduxLinux Admin 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I can confirm that an FX-8350 Running gcc compiled binaries with-march=native goes super fast. Thanks, Gentoo.

[–]Elrabin 25 points26 points  (11 children)

The work on ThreadRipper guaranteed Epyc to be a decent product.

You have that backwards

Threadripper is a scaled down Epyc

[–]m7samuelCCNA/VCP 29 points30 points  (6 children)

I'm not clear why you wouldn't be pushing for Epyc to begin with, given the fact that $4k Epycs go toe to toe with $5k and $8k Skylake-SPs, and support way more memory and PCIe to boot.

[–]SpacePotatoBear 26 points27 points  (10 children)

Except you can't buy racks with epyc yet, have to be a big OEM partner.

[–]meatwad75892Trade of All Jacks 46 points47 points  (3 children)

That was more of a joke at AMD folks' expense than a literal thought, but yea.

On that note, I recall HPe announcing some Gen10's with EPYC. Those should be around soon.

[–]0ctavContractor 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Yes, the HPE DL385 Gen10 (two-socket, EPYC) should be available now. Haven't heard anything about AMD blade servers from HPE, though, which is unfortunate.

[–]4d656761466167676f74 62 points63 points  (4 children)

Welp, I'm unaffected then. I am the 1%.

[–]broadsheetvstabloid 134 points135 points  (19 children)

Intel (99% of the market)

Not for long, when this news breaks and with vendors finally starting to carry Epyc servers.

[–]baskura 30 points31 points  (12 children)

Might be a good time to get some AMD shares lol.

[–]slims_s 60 points61 points  (10 children)

[–]MrJoeMthe guy who breaks the printer 59 points60 points  (3 children)

intels-ceo-just-sold-a-lot-of-stock

I will offer an alternate explanation. He lives in CA. Due to the recently passed federal tax changes, there may be good reasons to realize some gains under 2017 tax regime vs 2018. The limits on write off of state tax against federal will certainly hit him. So taking the action in 2017 he can use the deduction, but not in 2018. He is certainly hitting top tax brackets so 13.3% * 39.6% works out to a >5% take home difference. Not earth shattering, but definitely worth considering pulling some transactions in 2017.

[–]b4k4ni 31 points32 points  (4 children)

I'm still waiting for 1 Socket boards ... only supermicro has them listed at all and no in the wild right now. Feels like ages already.

[–]Etunimi 122 points123 points  (7 children)

I'd guess the typical performance hit will not be near 30%. From a Nov 10 version of the patchset:

Most workloads that we have run show single-digit regressions. 5% is a good round number for what is typical. The worst we have seen is a roughly 30% regression on a loopback networking test that did a ton of syscalls and context switches.

[–]rich000 30 points31 points  (3 children)

grsec apparently found 50% for du -s. Makes sense since that is just one system call after another with nothing more than adding up some totals in-between. Ultimately it depends on how often there is a syscall.

[–]nroach44 10 points11 points  (2 children)

That was on an AMD processor, so it's not particularly relevant to the patch (which is only turned on for Intel).

[–]rato123 95 points96 points  (3 children)

2018 will be better. For AMD.

[–]agumonkey 7 points8 points  (0 children)

amd struggling to stay zen right now

[–]dalik 45 points46 points  (1 child)

Expect a 40%min price increase to your bill

[–]samsonx 631 points632 points  (41 children)

Are we getting security updates from 4chan now ?

What a world!

[–]MrPoletski 229 points230 points  (24 children)

who is this "FOUR CHAN" ??

[–]Starscream918 79 points80 points  (13 children)

>van explodes

[–]sparc64what what in the cloud 5 points6 points  (0 children)

hackers on steroids

[–]zurohki 49 points50 points  (4 children)

He's a famous hacker, I've seen him on the news.

[–]HimeranceMSP Slave 30 points31 points  (3 children)

Isn't he that guy with the mask? You know, like in Mr. Robot?

[–]sarascha 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Notorious H. A. C. K. E. R.

[–]hdpq 35 points36 points  (5 children)

We have a world leader who communicates with other world leaders using 280 characters at a time. It's like a telegram, except less secure.

WhatATimeToBeAlive

[–]GMginger 255 points256 points  (33 children)

So there's Linux and Windows patches in the pipeline - wonder when we'll hear if there's VMware patches to come along too.
If the virtualisation layer is patched, hopefuly that renders the attack vector unusable in any guest OS too.

[–]dasunsrule32Lead Administrator[S] 103 points104 points  (30 children)

Yes, those will come through the VMware security announcements and then as a patch once it's been tested.

It seems Xen hvm machines are not affected by this bug.

[–]fattylewisLinux Admin 48 points49 points  (25 children)

Would that suggest AWS isnt likely affected then? As they (currently) use Xen.

[–]dasunsrule32Lead Administrator[S] 45 points46 points  (2 children)

Correct, from what I can tell.

Edit: they do have VMware in their portfolio now, but their main infrastructure is built on Xen.

https://aws.amazon.com/vmware/

[–]fattylewisLinux Admin 25 points26 points  (1 child)

I guess there is also their new HV they are building based on KVM as well.

[–]Flakmaster92 24 points25 points  (21 children)

They do use HVM Xen, plus KVM. But note that parent said “HVM Xen” And not just “Xen” which would indicate that PV might be affected.

[–]eldridcof 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Where did you get info that Xen was not impacted? https://xenbits.xen.org/xsa/ seems to indicate an embargoed security release for announcement Thursday as well.

[–]jw12321Student 379 points380 points  (22 children)

This... looks really, really bad. Not sure what else to say other than that. I can't imagine this will stay embargoed for much longer at this point.

There's a good amount of technical discussion on this HackerNews post if anyone is interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16046636

[–]sethstorm 52 points53 points  (1 child)

January 4th is official Damage Control Day.

[–]project2501aScary Devil Monastery 98 points99 points  (19 children)

This... looks really, really bad. Not sure what else to say other than that. I can't imagine this will stay embargoed for much longer at this point.

It is really bad. Intel-should-go-up-in-flames bad.

Especially since their CEO sold his stock.

[–]nemec 45 points46 points  (13 children)

Damn. Not just sold a bunch of stock, he sold all of it that he's allowed to (bylaws say the CEO must own 250,000 shares of the stock - he sold all but 250,000 shares...)

https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/12/19/intels-ceo-just-sold-a-lot-of-stock.aspx

[–]Wesside 30 points31 points  (11 children)

He also bought it at Employee pricing (lower than market pricing) and immediately sold it. Realistically, he was paying his taxes or something, not shorting the company.

[–]s1m0n8 273 points274 points  (18 children)

If this thing gets a catchy name and a logo, it could be serious.

[–]YaoiVeteran 83 points84 points  (6 children)

Can I propose that it be called the Hammertime Bug?

[–]Faggotitus 29 points30 points  (0 children)

The Great Page Table Cooch Snooch of '18

[–]OzymandiasKoK 9 points10 points  (1 child)

But it just slows things down, it doesn't STOP them!

[–]Seref15DevOps 48 points49 points  (3 children)

Since it lets VMs reach across the "fence" to each other, we should call it "Gate." And then tech sites will run headlines that say "Gategate."

[–]ralliasChief EVERYTHING Officer 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I heard "FUCKWIT" being thrown around as a potential name.

Forcefully Unmap Complete Kernel With Interrupt Trampolines

[–]CatMerc 437 points438 points  (20 children)

What an EPYC opportunity!

I'm sorry, I know where the door is.

[–]Aggrajag 77 points78 points  (1 child)

Don't forget your coat!

[–]-Malky- 36 points37 points  (2 children)

I'm sorry, I know where the door is.

The back door ?

[–]SirEDCaLot 42 points43 points  (1 child)

Yes, this is the door. Please show yourself in.

[–]CatMerc 41 points42 points  (0 children)

The watermarks sell the meme.

[–]RedditorBe 19 points20 points  (0 children)

I googled and came back to tell you not to let it hit you on the way out.

[–]wthbbq 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yeaaah, we're also going to need you to turn in your badge before you leave. Keep the laptop, it has an Intel chip anyway.

[–]viggy96 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This guy sees it.

[–]nerddtvgSys- and Netadmin 105 points106 points  (6 children)

This is probably why Microsoft released a notice that some VMs in Azure must be rebooted prior to or they will be automatically rebooted on January 10th. Of course that could just be standard maintenance as it isn't like they release a lot of information either way.

[–]temotodochiJack of All Trades 53 points54 points  (3 children)

Yup and loads of aws classic instances are being rebooted as well

[–]RadioShackTRS80Mod3 242 points243 points  (72 children)

Should I start buying AMD shares?

[–]nibbles200Sysadmin 168 points169 points  (22 children)

Short Intel I think would be better...

[–]cmsvgx 75 points76 points  (18 children)

People are going to have to buy more CPUs to make up for the 30% performance hit, if anything the sales should boost intel's stock price.

[–]nibbles200Sysadmin 97 points98 points  (4 children)

I think the issue may be a bit more complicated then that. I am more concerned about lawsuits.

[–]meatyscientist 50 points51 points  (3 children)

Lawsuits are normal operating costs nowadays.

[–]Talpss 48 points49 points  (0 children)

Intel knows this better than anyone.

[–]LandOfTheLostPassDoer of things 22 points23 points  (1 child)

Na, just wait for the news to go mainstream. That should cause an a nice panic drop in Intel. While it's down, buy up shares and wait for them to recover. While this is bad news, it isn't going to end Intel. And I doubt it's going to end Intel's dominance in the CPU market. So, at most, it'll be a blip.

[–]tipsle 84 points85 points  (18 children)

Maybe that's what Intel's CEO did with his shares...

[–]maurycy0Jack of All Trades 54 points55 points  (10 children)

isn't that insider trading and therefore illegal?

[–]Apolojuice 131 points132 points  (0 children)

lol, I have some Equifax shares you can buy.

[–]sx2eck 30 points31 points  (3 children)

No and yes. "Insiders" are a legally defined and regulated class of holders and have to sell based on specific rules. So true insiders can trade, but not quickly and it must be declared in advance

[–]tomlinas 30 points31 points  (2 children)

He filed a Form 4, so no, and you can go read the form to see exactly why he did it.

Looking at his trade history, this is his 18th insider trade of the year, and he started 2017 with a touch over 250k shares, so likely he just profit takes every year and then diversifies. Which is smart. Like most CEOs. ;)

[–]broadsheetvstabloid 20 points21 points  (2 children)

lucky me? I am already sitting on AMD shares.

[–]huxley00 101 points102 points  (12 children)

There was JUST a post a week ago in /r/personalfinance from a guy who inherited his stock portfolio from his dad, valued at 325k of Intel stock.

He was worried about having all his eggs in one basket. Hopefully he got moving on that...

[–]tuba_manDevFlops 22 points23 points  (2 children)

Either sell today or buy more tomorrow and wait out the slump. It'd take more than this to kill Intel

[–]hulagalula 24 points25 points  (5 children)

I don't know. It looks like people might have to buy some more Intel chips to get back to their prior performance…

[–]kn1820 13 points14 points  (3 children)

I would just buy EPYC to plug the gap.

[–]driedapricots 9 points10 points  (1 child)

AMD (Global Foundries) is at production capacity of 14nm wafers. Vega - sold out, Polaris +150$ msrp, Ryzen in stock, Eypc shortages. Ryzen is only in stock because they're taking the higher binned chips for Epyc.

And at the time, they haven't gone out of their way to dual source chips yet. Of course they could announce this tomorrow but it still won't make a difference for 3 months.

[–]synept 52 points53 points  (12 children)

Who figures KASLR is useless? I'm curious to see some references on that.

[–]Patriotaus 171 points172 points  (17 children)

Thomas Lendacky is a PMTS Software Engineer at AMD. His LinkedIn say he works on Linux kernel development. It's probably safe to say he knows whether or not this will effect AMD.

"AMD processors are not subject to the types of attacks that the kernel page table isolation feature protects against"

[–]fartsAndEggs 109 points110 points  (8 children)

*affect.

I had to do it. The rampant misuse of effect and affect is affecting all of reddit, and the effects cannot be underestimated, which is why I have effected a strategy to combat this problem

[–]shaded_in_dover 181 points182 points  (7 children)

They already incur the 35% performance penalty so there's that ...

[–]b4k4ni 19 points20 points  (5 children)

That's why someone already asked for the function to be disabled if an AMD CPU is used

[–]sethstorm 16 points17 points  (4 children)

So it's controlled by a flag that could be patched out and recompiled.

Nice.

[–]neoKushanJack of All Trades 52 points53 points  (1 child)

Get AT LEAST 30% better performance with this ONE NEAT TRICK

[–]tomlinas 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Security professionals hate him!

[–]kuar_zCitrix Admin 44 points45 points  (0 children)

Oof!

[–]SteelChickenDEVOPS Synergy Bubbler 84 points85 points  (24 children)

From the iklm.org link:

The AMD microarchitecture does not allow memory references, including speculative references, that access higher privileged data when running in a lesser privileged mode

Why would Intel do this any other way? Some kind of performance hack?

[–]rich000 49 points50 points  (5 children)

I'm not an expert in such things, but it sounds like skipping bounds checking on a data structure - the check costs you something, and if you are confident that the check is unnecessary then cutting it out saves you clock ticks.

It sounds like this is tied to speculative execution. If you're speculatively executing an instruction then it is possible you'll just end up throwing away the result anyway, so you want to do it as cheaply as possible. Maybe Intel figured out that they can skip the priv checks while speculatively executing, and then perform them before actually implementing the results if it turns out the instruction was needed. However, maybe it turns out that the speculative execution opens up some back-door way of getting at the data, such as via the cache/timing/etc, which wouldn't be exposed if an exception was raised sooner.

[–]neoKushanJack of All Trades 131 points132 points  (14 children)

It's funny, this seems to happen to AMD rather a lot - they under perform against the competition in raw pwer, but then over time it turns out that AMD's design was "better" in some crucial capacity.

Look at the GPU world - everyone knows Nvidia's cards are better for gaming, but it turns out AMD's cards (even older ones) got serious benefits from DX12/Vulkan when people started testing, in many cases often outperforming Nvidia's "better" cards. The Cryptominers quickly figure that one out, too.

Now here we are, Intel's processors generally outperform AMD's yet they're about to get a 30% performance bitch slap.

[–]kindkitsune 26 points27 points  (0 children)

so I'm just rolling into this subreddit from a link on a completely unrelated forum's top news post atm but i am a graphics programmer and can offer further input -

This has to do, at least partially imo, with just how much easier it is to implement drivers as an IHV for these low-level APIs. If you've seen the source for Mesa and how many layers of checks and state checks etc etc there is for OpenGL this shouldn't be too surprising.

Nvidia has a bigger budget and a bigger staff, so they've got more time to dump into optimizing their OpenGL and DirectX pre-12 drivers - including optimizations for individual games using these APIs.

Unfortunately AMD's cards still by and large lag behind, which bothers me. I rather dislike nvidia for a ton of reasons, and AMD contributes tons to the open source community from releasing one of their Vulkan drivers on github to maintaining a lovely collection of useful Vulkan articles and example projects/resources (like their positively kickass memory allocator for Vulkan).

I could rant more about nvidia but this isn't the place. I do hope AMD's cards make a comeback like Ryzen though, I really want them to

[–]SteelChickenDEVOPS Synergy Bubbler 87 points88 points  (11 children)

Intel might be suffering from a "hyper-optimized" engineering focus which works well until it runs into some odd use case and then it doesn't work anymore.

With regards to Nvidia and AMD, its not quite so cut and dry. They have chosen slightly different architectural philosophies, and it just so happens AMD's are better at crypto and Nvidias are better at AI/ML and are certainly more power efficient.

One thing worth mentioning is that AMD's driver/installation package quality is still shit. Jesus. Get some decent programmers and sufficient QA testers. Great hardware - if you can actually use it.

[–]starmizzleS-1-5-420-512 39 points40 points  (1 child)

I agree with you, but Nvidia can eat Richards with their "create an Nvidia account so you can keep using functionality on your card that you were already using" (talking specifically about their game recorder).

[–]Draculea 18 points19 points  (0 children)

You can use NVENC just fine with other screen-grabbing software. It still works, you just can't use their software package without an account. Check out the NVENC profiles in something like Open Broadcaster - lighter on system resources than Shadowplay, too.

[–]slayer991 107 points108 points  (15 children)

This is great news...for AMD.

AMD introduces their most competitive chip in nearly a decade...and now this. This should make things interesting...

[–]Harbinger2nd 30 points31 points  (12 children)

The only downside to AMD right now is their capacity to produce chips being limited by their agreement with Global Foundries.

[–]yukaia 24 points25 points  (9 children)

They're not locked in to only buying from GF, they can go to other 3rd parties so long as they continue to hit their purchase targets for GF.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/10631/amd-amends-globalfoundries-wafer-supply-agreement-through-2020

[–]Harbinger2nd 8 points9 points  (6 children)

AMD paid 2 large sums for the 6th WSA, the first being $100m in payments ($25m a quarter) between q4 2016 and q3 2017. The second being the 75 million stock warrant. And there's a third payment to GloFlo every time AMD buys wafers from a third party.

So while technically true, GloFlo still has their hands in every wafer AMD sources.

[–]dasunsrule32Lead Administrator[S] 26 points27 points  (0 children)

All major providers have been buying EPYC boxes, so there's that. Now we know why...

[–]Aesthetically 28 points29 points  (3 children)

Brb replacing my mobo and 7700k

[–]captaincobol 24 points25 points  (1 child)

Article on the Register goes into what's known.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/02/intel_cpu_design_flaw/

I like the original acronym better.

[–]biggest_decision 118 points119 points  (37 children)

Those performance numbers are going to be pretty task specific though, it's unlikely to be 34% across the board.

Where this patch does hurt performance is context switching in and out of the kernel. So if your application is making heaps of syscalls all the time, it might really harm your performance.

It's really hard to have any idea about how serious this is going to be till we see it in the real world though. Guess we'll known soon enough.

[–]gex80Wannabe VMware Admin 105 points106 points  (2 children)

So hypervisors?

[–]HenryKushinger 23 points24 points  (31 children)

Sooo is it possible that if I'm just a regular user whose Intel powered computer is used for media, content creation and gaming, the performance hit might be negligible? I am by no means a computer scientist or even close to it, just a hardware hobbyist and gamer, so I really don't know what to make of this.

[–]paroxon 12 points13 points  (0 children)

The core nature of this bug is that certain CPUs may allow unprivileged processes to access things they shouldn't. This has the biggest impact in virtualized environments (where the bug could allow an attacker to break out of a virtual machine) but it seems to allow for more mundane attacks against a regular pc.

Current thoughts are that it will have similar implications to the Rowhammer bug. So while cloud server providers are likely to be the worst affected, anyone using a vulnerable CPU is potentially open to attack.

[–]darrkwolf 88 points89 points  (28 children)

What generation intel cores could be affected?

[–]SirEDCaLot 157 points158 points  (23 children)

From the looks of it, all of them :\

[–]darrkwolf 41 points42 points  (13 children)

If thats the case then i know what im doing for the next few weeks (after the patch gets released) at work.

[–]Sterkenburg 132 points133 points  (10 children)

Waiting for other suckers to install it first in case there are bugs?

[–]CoatedChilliNuts 75 points76 points  (8 children)

That practice won't last if you keep warning all the potential beta-bunnies. : (

[–]TechSwitch 16 points17 points  (6 children)

Or just have your own test hardware like a normal operation. I doubt that anyone making these decisions has delusions about the quality of day 1 patches.

[–]No_Im_SharticusCisco Voice/Data 136 points137 points  (1 child)

Every organization has a test environment. Some are lucky enough that it's separate from the production environment.

[–]Sterkenburg 15 points16 points  (3 children)

We have test environments and we typically install software patches very shortly after release. CPU firmware upgrades though, we might give that one a month.

Fortunately it's not like Windows where they have ten million hardware drivers to support. Between Skylake and Kaby Lake there are only a few dozen processors.

Of course Apple only has 20 models of iPhone and iPad, and it seems they couldn't QA their software if their life depended on it, as evidenced by one patch where the Calculator app misses a plus sign and thinks 1+2+3 = 24 (but only if you type it quicky?) and another where you couldn't type the letter i.

So I'll give this one a few weeks.

[–]NeedsMoarCoffeeAssistant to the IT Administrator 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Seems like this one may be fixed faster than the last Intel issue. Still waiting on Vendors to release patches for all the systems we use for the last security issue.

[–]penny_eater 8 points9 points  (0 children)

depends on your mitigation strategies. how many physical hosts do you have running VM workloads that are potentially malicious? for cloud providers this is bad because every single one is potentially malicious. for a corporation that controls all the workloads closely anyway, keep them safe and this bug becomes a very small risk.

[–]mad8vskillz 21 points22 points  (2 children)

so should I short INTC?

[–]4d656761466167676f74 106 points107 points  (18 children)

2015: HTTPS is literally useless

2016: Monitors allow remote code execution on phones even when the phones have all network services disabled

2017: WPA2 is one hundred percent compromised, all wifi networks are basically public and nearly unsecurable

2018: All intel processors allow undefined access to kernelspace memory and potentially Ring-1 code execution even from web browsers

What's next, are we going to suddenly learn that USB ports come alive at night and slaughter people? Why was this the decade that all technology suddenly became completely insecure?

[–]Xalteox 45 points46 points  (0 children)

Why was this the decade that all technology suddenly became completely insecure?

Technology became massively more complicated and people are only human.

[–]skilliard7 25 points26 points  (3 children)

2015: HTTPS is literally useless

Was quickly fixed

2016: Monitors allow remote code execution on phones even when the phones have all network services disabled

Can someone fill me in on this one?

2017: WPA2 is one hundred percent compromised, all wifi networks are basically public and nearly unsecurable

Lies. The vulnerability was only on the host device, not the router. If the host device has patched drivers/firmware, the vulnerability is fixed.

[–]jepsonr 10 points11 points  (5 children)

Newbie here, what happened in 2015 to make HTTPS useless?

[–]RedShift9 29 points30 points  (3 children)

It didn't make HTTPS useless. It was a bug in OpenSSL which has been fixed. Headline way out of proportion.

[–]sethstorm 38 points39 points  (0 children)

First of all, as @grsecurity points out, some comments in the code have been redacted, and additionally the main documentation file describing the work is presently missing entirely from the Linux source tree.

So there's mystery meat running now.

[–]robertito42Security Admin 68 points69 points  (7 children)

It used to be the CPU was the lowest level of abstraction, now there are layers below it that we don't understand which almost certainly are being used to spy on us.

[–]Palkonium 68 points69 points  (21 children)

Explain this to me like I'm five

[–]name_censored_ 589 points590 points  (14 children)

Computer hides your treasure from the bad man. The bad man shakes the boxes to find your treasure. Computer has to spend more time hiding the treasure. Computer is slow now :(

[–]AsuMagic 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Big CPU bug which affects something hardwired inside of the chip, related to memory accesses, seemingly unfixable by microcode (which is "software" which basically defines how some instructions work to the CPU).
There is a fix for Linux and Windows which changes the stuff that may be affected to avoid people from exploiting the bug, but with a performance cost.

[–]bopsbt 52 points53 points  (7 children)

Any decent write ups that are not on Tumblr? (blocked at work)

[–]TheCatOfWar 39 points40 points  (0 children)

Here's an archive.is if it helps

[–]clickwir 89 points90 points  (4 children)

Who writes up technical documents and uses Tumblr... Wtf

[–]chihuahua001 45 points46 points  (1 child)

How about Intel just admits that all of their products are backdoored out of the box?

[–]DeezoNutso 64 points65 points  (0 children)

NSA Inside

[–]BloodyIron 12 points13 points  (4 children)

X86_BUG_CPU_INSECURE

One would think they could name it better.

[–]UnemployedMerchant 58 points59 points  (1 child)

Is this a new way of telling next gen will have 40% of improvement. And not even any but ipc.Sneaky marketing, but we have learned from people like them, several times

[–]Sandwich247 19 points20 points  (3 children)

Another one? Darn this sucks.

[–]JustNiltJack of All Trades 29 points30 points  (0 children)

This is what happens when everyone starts realizing code is code whether it's burned in hardware or not. Suddenly all these silly bugs start actually being an issue.

[–]productionse 154 points155 points  (43 children)

Call me paranoid, but this sounds like an NSA backdoor implementation.

Edit grammar

[–]harry3harry3harry 121 points122 points  (12 children)

Big if true. That means the AMD backdoor still hasn't been discovered. ;)

[–]Im_a_Bad_Dog 27 points28 points  (11 children)

Yum discovering backdoors

[–]MrPoletski 46 points47 points  (7 children)

Discovering isn't the fun. The fun is penetrating the backdoors.

[–]Colorado_odaroloCSr. Sysadmin 31 points32 points  (6 children)

I don't like how you guys are standing behind me...

[–]gsav55 19 points20 points  (4 children)

I think you dropped your pen

[–]Colorado_odaroloCSr. Sysadmin 21 points22 points  (3 children)

Starts sliding towards supply closet, with back firmly against the wall.

[–]Harbinger2nd 19 points20 points  (2 children)

You fool! you've activated my trap card! Reveals glory hole right behind you

[–]VIDGuideJack of All Trades 42 points43 points  (2 children)

The "bug" or the patch?

[–]shaded_in_dover 69 points70 points  (0 children)

The "bug" or the patch?

YES

[–]MiataCory 68 points69 points  (0 children)

First one, then the other.

[–]jakibaki 21 points22 points  (1 child)

If a nsa-backdoor were to be implemented into the linux kernel it would probably come as a "bug" in a minor kernel-patch.

[–]WiseassWolfOfYoitsuScary developer with root (and a CISSP) 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Or a bug in a minor, trivial, nearly useless feature added to OpenSSL >.>

[–]chillinewman 31 points32 points  (6 children)

The NSA already has a backdoor on intel cpu's.

https://libreboot.org/faq.html#intel

[–]DatOpenSauce 6 points7 points  (1 child)

They need to renew their cert. They have HSTS enabled too.

[–]Wahrscheinlich 20 points21 points  (8 children)

you guys are on /r/All

do I need to shit my pants? the only thing i'm an admin of besides my pc is my router

[–]LapinAdroit 32 points33 points  (1 child)

Just don't wear any pants and you should be fine.

[–]OmegaZero55 13 points14 points  (3 children)

Probably not. You're not running a massive amount of Virtual Machines (or any) and your router doesn't use an Intel chip. Just make sure your computer is regularly updated and you should be good to go. Don't forget to update your router too, though, since that's always a good practice.

[–]Wahrscheinlich 16 points17 points  (2 children)

...i can update my router?

[–]Klynn7Windows Admin 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Ha, this is probably my favorite thread in here.

[–]ErikTheEngineer 20 points21 points  (2 children)

Wow, I thought the Achilles heel of public cloud was authentication (Azure AD, AWS IAM, etc.) I thought hackers would pound on the identity management stuff with all their weapons, or just wait for someone at Microsoft or Amazon to accidentally release the private keys on an unprotected storage account.

This sounds like it could affect basically anyone running a multitenant bit-barn. I'm assuming this affects VMWare and Hyper-V also?

[–]moldyjellybean 17 points18 points  (5 children)

My amd stock did go up 2.5% so far at open

[–]bionic80 17 points18 points  (3 children)

I started a new job today - showed this thread to my boss (who IS former sysadmin) and he's already got 2 extra VM hosts on order for horizon... and he already asked me if I'd like more pay. It's a good day.

[–]svsdvfds 15 points16 points  (1 child)

My Pentium 1 is safe.

[–]frankv1971Windows Admin 6 points7 points  (9 children)

Call me stupid but for private organisations that run no VMs other than their own this patch would not be needed (and the performance hit)?

[–]njl4515Security Admin 11 points12 points  (3 children)

Well, if you're running a PowerEdge with Hyper-V or a UCS with VMware locally, it depends on exactly how exploitable this bug is from inside your locked down network. That's actually something I'm having trouble finding as well.

[–]VTCEngineersMistress of Video 5 points6 points  (3 children)

I am assuming no CVE just yet...Or is there?

[–]sethstorm 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Nothing yet. Just incompletely documented patches.

[–]MrKaru 5 points6 points  (4 children)

As a pure gamer, the refund window on my 6600k is coming to an end. I could return it by the 6th for a full refund. Is it worth doing that and getting a 1700x? It's hard to get info on this, and I understand that everybody is saying "We should wait and see", but with a time limit only a few days away, I don't want to jump ship if it's not needed or stick with it and get screwed.

[–]dasunsrule32Lead Administrator[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Then return it and wait to decide what to buy until after.

[–]Mr2-1782Man 6 points7 points  (10 children)

I have an objection to the way the kernel devs are handling this. Seems like they're penalizing everyone for an Intel problem. The line

if (c->x86_vendor != X86_VENDOR_AMD)

is what prevents a CPU from being marked insecure. Even if you don't know coding you should see that this whitelists AMD instead of blacklisting Intel. The problems with this should be obvious. Instead of let's slightly rework the code to be more Intel-like

if (c->x86_vendor == GENUINE_INTEL)
  kill_performance();

[–]DerfK 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Oh man, they better fix that! An additional 50% penalty on my Cyrix 486 is going to make my computer useless!

[–]glassuser 11 points12 points  (7 children)

How much mass does a hardware bug have?

[–]sethstorm 15 points16 points  (6 children)

Until it's properly disclosed, none and infinite, per /u/chihuahua001.

[–]chihuahua001 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Wouldn't it be simultaneously none and infinite until it's observed?

[–]iamnos 30 points31 points  (5 children)

At the end of November, the Intel CEO sold every stock he legally could and still remain CEO.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/12/19/intels-ceo-just-sold-a-lot-of-stock.aspx

This is probably not long after Intel learned about the bug if you consider MS was working on a patch in November.

[–]2y3t8rvIH5PpDnwM7bve 8 points9 points  (0 children)

He returned to roughly what his total ownership was at the beginning of the year. The majority of what he sold was through the purchase and immediate selling of optioned stock.

[–]casino_r0yale 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Yeah because he lives in CA where the Trump taxes are about to railroad us. He’d keep way more money by selling now instead of holding into 2018

π Rendered by PID 13511 on app-464 at 2018-01-03 10:21:21.046792+00:00 running 41be81f country code: JP.

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[–]chubbysuperbikerIT Director 1469 points1470 points  (168 children)

So let me get this straight, not only is this a massive security bug that unpatched could let a VM write to another VM, but patched it will incur a 30+% performance hit?

Goddamnit 2018 you were supposed to be better than 2017.

[–]Patriotaus 749 points750 points  (92 children)

Only if you use Intel (99% of the market)

[–]meatwad75892Trade of All Jacks 578 points579 points  (58 children)

RIP Opteron. In other news, that one admin that pushed for EPYC is going to be so smug today.

[–]excalibur_zd 154 points155 points  (29 children)

They will never be doubted again in the future!

[–]Start_button 78 points79 points  (26 children)

Hey, you dropped this "/s".

[–]ihsw 147 points148 points  (24 children)

Speaking as someone that bought into the hype of Opteron Bulldozer, I can understand the skepticism directed at AMD. It ran like a fucking dog and it dispersed heat like no tomorrow. Seven years ago, nobody gave a shit about sixteen-cores because AMD screwed the pooch with a god damned awful product.

AMD embraced their bullshit by screaming more cores are better but then Intel ate their lunch (and dinner, and everything but the smallest scraps for the next 7 years).

Thankfully, Zen and, consequently, ThreadRipper, are something worth looking at. The work on ThreadRipper guaranteed Epyc to be a decent product.

[–]starmizzleS-1-5-420-512 38 points39 points  (7 children)

Not sure what kind of performance you expected from a CPU named "Bulldozer". =P

[–]Nkechinyerembi 45 points46 points  (5 children)

I mean, it doesn't embody the nature of "speed" or anything. More like subscribes to the method of "throw power at it and eventually something will happen"

[–]Lhun 19 points20 points  (4 children)

IT is truly like the difference between a V8 and a turbocharged 4 banger, though - the problem is nobody had the tires to handle the torque on the V8 and they just did burnouts everywhere and never did any work. AMD provided the tools to make things run on their hardware BETTER AND FASTER then intel and nvidia and everyone said "fuck that I'm using gameworks and cuda, and fuck your compiler I'll use the one that specifically targets intel". The "GENERIC" most commonly used C++ compiler and the people who write it are guilty of this, even. Without intel specific optimization exe's compiled properly for AMD perform incredibly fast.

[–]tiduxLinux Admin 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I can confirm that an FX-8350 Running gcc compiled binaries with-march=native goes super fast. Thanks, Gentoo.

[–]Elrabin 25 points26 points  (11 children)

The work on ThreadRipper guaranteed Epyc to be a decent product.

You have that backwards

Threadripper is a scaled down Epyc

[–]m7samuelCCNA/VCP 29 points30 points  (6 children)

I'm not clear why you wouldn't be pushing for Epyc to begin with, given the fact that $4k Epycs go toe to toe with $5k and $8k Skylake-SPs, and support way more memory and PCIe to boot.

[–]SpacePotatoBear 26 points27 points  (10 children)

Except you can't buy racks with epyc yet, have to be a big OEM partner.

[–]meatwad75892Trade of All Jacks 46 points47 points  (3 children)

That was more of a joke at AMD folks' expense than a literal thought, but yea.

On that note, I recall HPe announcing some Gen10's with EPYC. Those should be around soon.

[–]0ctavContractor 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Yes, the HPE DL385 Gen10 (two-socket, EPYC) should be available now. Haven't heard anything about AMD blade servers from HPE, though, which is unfortunate.

[–]4d656761466167676f74 62 points63 points  (4 children)

Welp, I'm unaffected then. I am the 1%.

[–]broadsheetvstabloid 134 points135 points  (19 children)

Intel (99% of the market)

Not for long, when this news breaks and with vendors finally starting to carry Epyc servers.

[–]baskura 30 points31 points  (12 children)

Might be a good time to get some AMD shares lol.

[–]slims_s 60 points61 points  (10 children)

[–]MrJoeMthe guy who breaks the printer 59 points60 points  (3 children)

intels-ceo-just-sold-a-lot-of-stock

I will offer an alternate explanation. He lives in CA. Due to the recently passed federal tax changes, there may be good reasons to realize some gains under 2017 tax regime vs 2018. The limits on write off of state tax against federal will certainly hit him. So taking the action in 2017 he can use the deduction, but not in 2018. He is certainly hitting top tax brackets so 13.3% * 39.6% works out to a >5% take home difference. Not earth shattering, but definitely worth considering pulling some transactions in 2017.

[–]b4k4ni 31 points32 points  (4 children)

I'm still waiting for 1 Socket boards ... only supermicro has them listed at all and no in the wild right now. Feels like ages already.

[–]Etunimi 122 points123 points  (7 children)

I'd guess the typical performance hit will not be near 30%. From a Nov 10 version of the patchset:

Most workloads that we have run show single-digit regressions. 5% is a good round number for what is typical. The worst we have seen is a roughly 30% regression on a loopback networking test that did a ton of syscalls and context switches.

[–]rich000 30 points31 points  (3 children)

grsec apparently found 50% for du -s. Makes sense since that is just one system call after another with nothing more than adding up some totals in-between. Ultimately it depends on how often there is a syscall.

[–]nroach44 10 points11 points  (2 children)

That was on an AMD processor, so it's not particularly relevant to the patch (which is only turned on for Intel).

[–]rato123 95 points96 points  (3 children)

2018 will be better. For AMD.

[–]agumonkey 7 points8 points  (0 children)

amd struggling to stay zen right now

[–]dalik 45 points46 points  (1 child)

Expect a 40%min price increase to your bill

[–]samsonx 631 points632 points  (41 children)

Are we getting security updates from 4chan now ?

What a world!

[–]MrPoletski 229 points230 points  (24 children)

who is this "FOUR CHAN" ??

[–]Starscream918 79 points80 points  (13 children)

>van explodes

[–]sparc64what what in the cloud 5 points6 points  (0 children)

hackers on steroids

[–]zurohki 49 points50 points  (4 children)

He's a famous hacker, I've seen him on the news.

[–]HimeranceMSP Slave 30 points31 points  (3 children)

Isn't he that guy with the mask? You know, like in Mr. Robot?

[–]sarascha 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Notorious H. A. C. K. E. R.

[–]hdpq 35 points36 points  (5 children)

We have a world leader who communicates with other world leaders using 280 characters at a time. It's like a telegram, except less secure.

WhatATimeToBeAlive

[–]GMginger 255 points256 points  (33 children)

So there's Linux and Windows patches in the pipeline - wonder when we'll hear if there's VMware patches to come along too.
If the virtualisation layer is patched, hopefuly that renders the attack vector unusable in any guest OS too.

[–]dasunsrule32Lead Administrator[S] 103 points104 points  (30 children)

Yes, those will come through the VMware security announcements and then as a patch once it's been tested.

It seems Xen hvm machines are not affected by this bug.

[–]fattylewisLinux Admin 48 points49 points  (25 children)

Would that suggest AWS isnt likely affected then? As they (currently) use Xen.

[–]dasunsrule32Lead Administrator[S] 45 points46 points  (2 children)

Correct, from what I can tell.

Edit: they do have VMware in their portfolio now, but their main infrastructure is built on Xen.

https://aws.amazon.com/vmware/

[–]fattylewisLinux Admin 25 points26 points  (1 child)

I guess there is also their new HV they are building based on KVM as well.

[–]Flakmaster92 24 points25 points  (21 children)

They do use HVM Xen, plus KVM. But note that parent said “HVM Xen” And not just “Xen” which would indicate that PV might be affected.

[–]eldridcof 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Where did you get info that Xen was not impacted? https://xenbits.xen.org/xsa/ seems to indicate an embargoed security release for announcement Thursday as well.

[–]jw12321Student 379 points380 points  (22 children)

This... looks really, really bad. Not sure what else to say other than that. I can't imagine this will stay embargoed for much longer at this point.

There's a good amount of technical discussion on this HackerNews post if anyone is interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16046636

[–]sethstorm 52 points53 points  (1 child)

January 4th is official Damage Control Day.

[–]project2501aScary Devil Monastery 98 points99 points  (19 children)

This... looks really, really bad. Not sure what else to say other than that. I can't imagine this will stay embargoed for much longer at this point.

It is really bad. Intel-should-go-up-in-flames bad.

Especially since their CEO sold his stock.

[–]nemec 45 points46 points  (13 children)

Damn. Not just sold a bunch of stock, he sold all of it that he's allowed to (bylaws say the CEO must own 250,000 shares of the stock - he sold all but 250,000 shares...)

https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/12/19/intels-ceo-just-sold-a-lot-of-stock.aspx

[–]Wesside 30 points31 points  (11 children)

He also bought it at Employee pricing (lower than market pricing) and immediately sold it. Realistically, he was paying his taxes or something, not shorting the company.

[–]s1m0n8 273 points274 points  (18 children)

If this thing gets a catchy name and a logo, it could be serious.

[–]YaoiVeteran 83 points84 points  (6 children)

Can I propose that it be called the Hammertime Bug?

[–]Faggotitus 29 points30 points  (0 children)

The Great Page Table Cooch Snooch of '18

[–]OzymandiasKoK 9 points10 points  (1 child)

But it just slows things down, it doesn't STOP them!

[–]Seref15DevOps 48 points49 points  (3 children)

Since it lets VMs reach across the "fence" to each other, we should call it "Gate." And then tech sites will run headlines that say "Gategate."

[–]ralliasChief EVERYTHING Officer 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I heard "FUCKWIT" being thrown around as a potential name.

Forcefully Unmap Complete Kernel With Interrupt Trampolines

[–]CatMerc 437 points438 points  (20 children)

What an EPYC opportunity!

I'm sorry, I know where the door is.

[–]Aggrajag 77 points78 points  (1 child)

Don't forget your coat!

[–]-Malky- 36 points37 points  (2 children)

I'm sorry, I know where the door is.

The back door ?

[–]SirEDCaLot 42 points43 points  (1 child)

Yes, this is the door. Please show yourself in.

[–]CatMerc 41 points42 points  (0 children)

The watermarks sell the meme.

[–]RedditorBe 19 points20 points  (0 children)

I googled and came back to tell you not to let it hit you on the way out.

[–]wthbbq 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yeaaah, we're also going to need you to turn in your badge before you leave. Keep the laptop, it has an Intel chip anyway.

[–]viggy96 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This guy sees it.

[–]nerddtvgSys- and Netadmin 105 points106 points  (6 children)

This is probably why Microsoft released a notice that some VMs in Azure must be rebooted prior to or they will be automatically rebooted on January 10th. Of course that could just be standard maintenance as it isn't like they release a lot of information either way.

[–]temotodochiJack of All Trades 53 points54 points  (3 children)

Yup and loads of aws classic instances are being rebooted as well

[–]RadioShackTRS80Mod3 242 points243 points  (72 children)

Should I start buying AMD shares?

[–]nibbles200Sysadmin 168 points169 points  (22 children)

Short Intel I think would be better...

[–]cmsvgx 75 points76 points  (18 children)

People are going to have to buy more CPUs to make up for the 30% performance hit, if anything the sales should boost intel's stock price.

[–]nibbles200Sysadmin 97 points98 points  (4 children)

I think the issue may be a bit more complicated then that. I am more concerned about lawsuits.

[–]meatyscientist 50 points51 points  (3 children)

Lawsuits are normal operating costs nowadays.

[–]Talpss 48 points49 points  (0 children)

Intel knows this better than anyone.

[–]LandOfTheLostPassDoer of things 22 points23 points  (1 child)

Na, just wait for the news to go mainstream. That should cause an a nice panic drop in Intel. While it's down, buy up shares and wait for them to recover. While this is bad news, it isn't going to end Intel. And I doubt it's going to end Intel's dominance in the CPU market. So, at most, it'll be a blip.

[–]tipsle 84 points85 points  (18 children)

Maybe that's what Intel's CEO did with his shares...

[–]maurycy0Jack of All Trades 54 points55 points  (10 children)

isn't that insider trading and therefore illegal?

[–]Apolojuice 131 points132 points  (0 children)

lol, I have some Equifax shares you can buy.

[–]sx2eck 30 points31 points  (3 children)

No and yes. "Insiders" are a legally defined and regulated class of holders and have to sell based on specific rules. So true insiders can trade, but not quickly and it must be declared in advance

[–]tomlinas 30 points31 points  (2 children)

He filed a Form 4, so no, and you can go read the form to see exactly why he did it.

Looking at his trade history, this is his 18th insider trade of the year, and he started 2017 with a touch over 250k shares, so likely he just profit takes every year and then diversifies. Which is smart. Like most CEOs. ;)

[–]broadsheetvstabloid 20 points21 points  (2 children)

lucky me? I am already sitting on AMD shares.

[–]huxley00 101 points102 points  (12 children)

There was JUST a post a week ago in /r/personalfinance from a guy who inherited his stock portfolio from his dad, valued at 325k of Intel stock.

He was worried about having all his eggs in one basket. Hopefully he got moving on that...

[–]tuba_manDevFlops 22 points23 points  (2 children)

Either sell today or buy more tomorrow and wait out the slump. It'd take more than this to kill Intel

[–]hulagalula 24 points25 points  (5 children)

I don't know. It looks like people might have to buy some more Intel chips to get back to their prior performance…

[–]kn1820 13 points14 points  (3 children)

I would just buy EPYC to plug the gap.

[–]driedapricots 9 points10 points  (1 child)

AMD (Global Foundries) is at production capacity of 14nm wafers. Vega - sold out, Polaris +150$ msrp, Ryzen in stock, Eypc shortages. Ryzen is only in stock because they're taking the higher binned chips for Epyc.

And at the time, they haven't gone out of their way to dual source chips yet. Of course they could announce this tomorrow but it still won't make a difference for 3 months.

[–]synept 52 points53 points  (12 children)

Who figures KASLR is useless? I'm curious to see some references on that.

[–]Patriotaus 171 points172 points  (17 children)

Thomas Lendacky is a PMTS Software Engineer at AMD. His LinkedIn say he works on Linux kernel development. It's probably safe to say he knows whether or not this will effect AMD.

"AMD processors are not subject to the types of attacks that the kernel page table isolation feature protects against"

[–]fartsAndEggs 109 points110 points  (8 children)

*affect.

I had to do it. The rampant misuse of effect and affect is affecting all of reddit, and the effects cannot be underestimated, which is why I have effected a strategy to combat this problem

[–]shaded_in_dover 181 points182 points  (7 children)

They already incur the 35% performance penalty so there's that ...

[–]b4k4ni 19 points20 points  (5 children)

That's why someone already asked for the function to be disabled if an AMD CPU is used

[–]sethstorm 16 points17 points  (4 children)

So it's controlled by a flag that could be patched out and recompiled.

Nice.

[–]neoKushanJack of All Trades 52 points53 points  (1 child)

Get AT LEAST 30% better performance with this ONE NEAT TRICK

[–]tomlinas 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Security professionals hate him!

[–]kuar_zCitrix Admin 44 points45 points  (0 children)

Oof!

[–]SteelChickenDEVOPS Synergy Bubbler 84 points85 points  (24 children)

From the iklm.org link:

The AMD microarchitecture does not allow memory references, including speculative references, that access higher privileged data when running in a lesser privileged mode

Why would Intel do this any other way? Some kind of performance hack?

[–]rich000 49 points50 points  (5 children)

I'm not an expert in such things, but it sounds like skipping bounds checking on a data structure - the check costs you something, and if you are confident that the check is unnecessary then cutting it out saves you clock ticks.

It sounds like this is tied to speculative execution. If you're speculatively executing an instruction then it is possible you'll just end up throwing away the result anyway, so you want to do it as cheaply as possible. Maybe Intel figured out that they can skip the priv checks while speculatively executing, and then perform them before actually implementing the results if it turns out the instruction was needed. However, maybe it turns out that the speculative execution opens up some back-door way of getting at the data, such as via the cache/timing/etc, which wouldn't be exposed if an exception was raised sooner.

[–]neoKushanJack of All Trades 131 points132 points  (14 children)

It's funny, this seems to happen to AMD rather a lot - they under perform against the competition in raw pwer, but then over time it turns out that AMD's design was "better" in some crucial capacity.

Look at the GPU world - everyone knows Nvidia's cards are better for gaming, but it turns out AMD's cards (even older ones) got serious benefits from DX12/Vulkan when people started testing, in many cases often outperforming Nvidia's "better" cards. The Cryptominers quickly figure that one out, too.

Now here we are, Intel's processors generally outperform AMD's yet they're about to get a 30% performance bitch slap.

[–]kindkitsune 26 points27 points  (0 children)

so I'm just rolling into this subreddit from a link on a completely unrelated forum's top news post atm but i am a graphics programmer and can offer further input -

This has to do, at least partially imo, with just how much easier it is to implement drivers as an IHV for these low-level APIs. If you've seen the source for Mesa and how many layers of checks and state checks etc etc there is for OpenGL this shouldn't be too surprising.

Nvidia has a bigger budget and a bigger staff, so they've got more time to dump into optimizing their OpenGL and DirectX pre-12 drivers - including optimizations for individual games using these APIs.

Unfortunately AMD's cards still by and large lag behind, which bothers me. I rather dislike nvidia for a ton of reasons, and AMD contributes tons to the open source community from releasing one of their Vulkan drivers on github to maintaining a lovely collection of useful Vulkan articles and example projects/resources (like their positively kickass memory allocator for Vulkan).

I could rant more about nvidia but this isn't the place. I do hope AMD's cards make a comeback like Ryzen though, I really want them to

[–]SteelChickenDEVOPS Synergy Bubbler 87 points88 points  (11 children)

Intel might be suffering from a "hyper-optimized" engineering focus which works well until it runs into some odd use case and then it doesn't work anymore.

With regards to Nvidia and AMD, its not quite so cut and dry. They have chosen slightly different architectural philosophies, and it just so happens AMD's are better at crypto and Nvidias are better at AI/ML and are certainly more power efficient.

One thing worth mentioning is that AMD's driver/installation package quality is still shit. Jesus. Get some decent programmers and sufficient QA testers. Great hardware - if you can actually use it.

[–]starmizzleS-1-5-420-512 39 points40 points  (1 child)

I agree with you, but Nvidia can eat Richards with their "create an Nvidia account so you can keep using functionality on your card that you were already using" (talking specifically about their game recorder).

[–]Draculea 18 points19 points  (0 children)

You can use NVENC just fine with other screen-grabbing software. It still works, you just can't use their software package without an account. Check out the NVENC profiles in something like Open Broadcaster - lighter on system resources than Shadowplay, too.

[–]slayer991 107 points108 points  (15 children)

This is great news...for AMD.

AMD introduces their most competitive chip in nearly a decade...and now this. This should make things interesting...

[–]Harbinger2nd 30 points31 points  (12 children)

The only downside to AMD right now is their capacity to produce chips being limited by their agreement with Global Foundries.

[–]yukaia 24 points25 points  (9 children)

They're not locked in to only buying from GF, they can go to other 3rd parties so long as they continue to hit their purchase targets for GF.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/10631/amd-amends-globalfoundries-wafer-supply-agreement-through-2020

[–]Harbinger2nd 8 points9 points  (6 children)

AMD paid 2 large sums for the 6th WSA, the first being $100m in payments ($25m a quarter) between q4 2016 and q3 2017. The second being the 75 million stock warrant. And there's a third payment to GloFlo every time AMD buys wafers from a third party.

So while technically true, GloFlo still has their hands in every wafer AMD sources.

[–]dasunsrule32Lead Administrator[S] 26 points27 points  (0 children)

All major providers have been buying EPYC boxes, so there's that. Now we know why...

[–]Aesthetically 28 points29 points  (3 children)

Brb replacing my mobo and 7700k

[–]captaincobol 24 points25 points  (1 child)

Article on the Register goes into what's known.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/02/intel_cpu_design_flaw/

I like the original acronym better.

[–]biggest_decision 118 points119 points  (37 children)

Those performance numbers are going to be pretty task specific though, it's unlikely to be 34% across the board.

Where this patch does hurt performance is context switching in and out of the kernel. So if your application is making heaps of syscalls all the time, it might really harm your performance.

It's really hard to have any idea about how serious this is going to be till we see it in the real world though. Guess we'll known soon enough.

[–]gex80Wannabe VMware Admin 105 points106 points  (2 children)

So hypervisors?

[–]HenryKushinger 23 points24 points  (31 children)

Sooo is it possible that if I'm just a regular user whose Intel powered computer is used for media, content creation and gaming, the performance hit might be negligible? I am by no means a computer scientist or even close to it, just a hardware hobbyist and gamer, so I really don't know what to make of this.

[–]paroxon 12 points13 points  (0 children)

The core nature of this bug is that certain CPUs may allow unprivileged processes to access things they shouldn't. This has the biggest impact in virtualized environments (where the bug could allow an attacker to break out of a virtual machine) but it seems to allow for more mundane attacks against a regular pc.

Current thoughts are that it will have similar implications to the Rowhammer bug. So while cloud server providers are likely to be the worst affected, anyone using a vulnerable CPU is potentially open to attack.

[–]darrkwolf 88 points89 points  (28 children)

What generation intel cores could be affected?

[–]SirEDCaLot 157 points158 points  (23 children)

From the looks of it, all of them :\

[–]darrkwolf 41 points42 points  (13 children)

If thats the case then i know what im doing for the next few weeks (after the patch gets released) at work.

[–]Sterkenburg 132 points133 points  (10 children)

Waiting for other suckers to install it first in case there are bugs?

[–]CoatedChilliNuts 75 points76 points  (8 children)

That practice won't last if you keep warning all the potential beta-bunnies. : (

[–]TechSwitch 16 points17 points  (6 children)

Or just have your own test hardware like a normal operation. I doubt that anyone making these decisions has delusions about the quality of day 1 patches.

[–]No_Im_SharticusCisco Voice/Data 136 points137 points  (1 child)

Every organization has a test environment. Some are lucky enough that it's separate from the production environment.

[–]Sterkenburg 15 points16 points  (3 children)

We have test environments and we typically install software patches very shortly after release. CPU firmware upgrades though, we might give that one a month.

Fortunately it's not like Windows where they have ten million hardware drivers to support. Between Skylake and Kaby Lake there are only a few dozen processors.

Of course Apple only has 20 models of iPhone and iPad, and it seems they couldn't QA their software if their life depended on it, as evidenced by one patch where the Calculator app misses a plus sign and thinks 1+2+3 = 24 (but only if you type it quicky?) and another where you couldn't type the letter i.

So I'll give this one a few weeks.

[–]NeedsMoarCoffeeAssistant to the IT Administrator 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Seems like this one may be fixed faster than the last Intel issue. Still waiting on Vendors to release patches for all the systems we use for the last security issue.

[–]penny_eater 8 points9 points  (0 children)

depends on your mitigation strategies. how many physical hosts do you have running VM workloads that are potentially malicious? for cloud providers this is bad because every single one is potentially malicious. for a corporation that controls all the workloads closely anyway, keep them safe and this bug becomes a very small risk.

[–]mad8vskillz 21 points22 points  (2 children)

so should I short INTC?

[–]4d656761466167676f74 106 points107 points  (18 children)

2015: HTTPS is literally useless

2016: Monitors allow remote code execution on phones even when the phones have all network services disabled

2017: WPA2 is one hundred percent compromised, all wifi networks are basically public and nearly unsecurable

2018: All intel processors allow undefined access to kernelspace memory and potentially Ring-1 code execution even from web browsers

What's next, are we going to suddenly learn that USB ports come alive at night and slaughter people? Why was this the decade that all technology suddenly became completely insecure?

[–]Xalteox 45 points46 points  (0 children)

Why was this the decade that all technology suddenly became completely insecure?

Technology became massively more complicated and people are only human.

[–]skilliard7 25 points26 points  (3 children)

2015: HTTPS is literally useless

Was quickly fixed

2016: Monitors allow remote code execution on phones even when the phones have all network services disabled

Can someone fill me in on this one?

2017: WPA2 is one hundred percent compromised, all wifi networks are basically public and nearly unsecurable

Lies. The vulnerability was only on the host device, not the router. If the host device has patched drivers/firmware, the vulnerability is fixed.

[–]jepsonr 10 points11 points  (5 children)

Newbie here, what happened in 2015 to make HTTPS useless?

[–]RedShift9 29 points30 points  (3 children)

It didn't make HTTPS useless. It was a bug in OpenSSL which has been fixed. Headline way out of proportion.

[–]sethstorm 38 points39 points  (0 children)

First of all, as @grsecurity points out, some comments in the code have been redacted, and additionally the main documentation file describing the work is presently missing entirely from the Linux source tree.

So there's mystery meat running now.

[–]robertito42Security Admin 68 points69 points  (7 children)

It used to be the CPU was the lowest level of abstraction, now there are layers below it that we don't understand which almost certainly are being used to spy on us.

[–]Palkonium 68 points69 points  (21 children)

Explain this to me like I'm five

[–]name_censored_ 589 points590 points  (14 children)

Computer hides your treasure from the bad man. The bad man shakes the boxes to find your treasure. Computer has to spend more time hiding the treasure. Computer is slow now :(

[–]AsuMagic 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Big CPU bug which affects something hardwired inside of the chip, related to memory accesses, seemingly unfixable by microcode (which is "software" which basically defines how some instructions work to the CPU).
There is a fix for Linux and Windows which changes the stuff that may be affected to avoid people from exploiting the bug, but with a performance cost.

[–]bopsbt 52 points53 points  (7 children)

Any decent write ups that are not on Tumblr? (blocked at work)

[–]TheCatOfWar 39 points40 points  (0 children)

Here's an archive.is if it helps

[–]clickwir 89 points90 points  (4 children)

Who writes up technical documents and uses Tumblr... Wtf

[–]chihuahua001 45 points46 points  (1 child)

How about Intel just admits that all of their products are backdoored out of the box?

[–]DeezoNutso 64 points65 points  (0 children)

NSA Inside

[–]BloodyIron 12 points13 points  (4 children)

X86_BUG_CPU_INSECURE

One would think they could name it better.

[–]UnemployedMerchant 58 points59 points  (1 child)

Is this a new way of telling next gen will have 40% of improvement. And not even any but ipc.Sneaky marketing, but we have learned from people like them, several times

[–]Sandwich247 19 points20 points  (3 children)

Another one? Darn this sucks.

[–]JustNiltJack of All Trades 29 points30 points  (0 children)

This is what happens when everyone starts realizing code is code whether it's burned in hardware or not. Suddenly all these silly bugs start actually being an issue.

[–]productionse 154 points155 points  (43 children)

Call me paranoid, but this sounds like an NSA backdoor implementation.

Edit grammar

[–]harry3harry3harry 121 points122 points  (12 children)

Big if true. That means the AMD backdoor still hasn't been discovered. ;)

[–]Im_a_Bad_Dog 27 points28 points  (11 children)

Yum discovering backdoors

[–]MrPoletski 46 points47 points  (7 children)

Discovering isn't the fun. The fun is penetrating the backdoors.

[–]Colorado_odaroloCSr. Sysadmin 31 points32 points  (6 children)

I don't like how you guys are standing behind me...

[–]gsav55 19 points20 points  (4 children)

I think you dropped your pen

[–]Colorado_odaroloCSr. Sysadmin 21 points22 points  (3 children)

Starts sliding towards supply closet, with back firmly against the wall.

[–]Harbinger2nd 19 points20 points  (2 children)

You fool! you've activated my trap card! Reveals glory hole right behind you

[–]VIDGuideJack of All Trades 42 points43 points  (2 children)

The "bug" or the patch?

[–]shaded_in_dover 69 points70 points  (0 children)

The "bug" or the patch?

YES

[–]MiataCory 68 points69 points  (0 children)

First one, then the other.

[–]jakibaki 21 points22 points  (1 child)

If a nsa-backdoor were to be implemented into the linux kernel it would probably come as a "bug" in a minor kernel-patch.

[–]WiseassWolfOfYoitsuScary developer with root (and a CISSP) 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Or a bug in a minor, trivial, nearly useless feature added to OpenSSL >.>

[–]chillinewman 31 points32 points  (6 children)

The NSA already has a backdoor on intel cpu's.

https://libreboot.org/faq.html#intel

[–]DatOpenSauce 6 points7 points  (1 child)

They need to renew their cert. They have HSTS enabled too.

[–]Wahrscheinlich 20 points21 points  (8 children)

you guys are on /r/All

do I need to shit my pants? the only thing i'm an admin of besides my pc is my router

[–]LapinAdroit 32 points33 points  (1 child)

Just don't wear any pants and you should be fine.

[–]OmegaZero55 13 points14 points  (3 children)

Probably not. You're not running a massive amount of Virtual Machines (or any) and your router doesn't use an Intel chip. Just make sure your computer is regularly updated and you should be good to go. Don't forget to update your router too, though, since that's always a good practice.

[–]Wahrscheinlich 16 points17 points  (2 children)

...i can update my router?

[–]Klynn7Windows Admin 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Ha, this is probably my favorite thread in here.

[–]ErikTheEngineer 20 points21 points  (2 children)

Wow, I thought the Achilles heel of public cloud was authentication (Azure AD, AWS IAM, etc.) I thought hackers would pound on the identity management stuff with all their weapons, or just wait for someone at Microsoft or Amazon to accidentally release the private keys on an unprotected storage account.

This sounds like it could affect basically anyone running a multitenant bit-barn. I'm assuming this affects VMWare and Hyper-V also?

[–]moldyjellybean 17 points18 points  (5 children)

My amd stock did go up 2.5% so far at open

[–]bionic80 17 points18 points  (3 children)

I started a new job today - showed this thread to my boss (who IS former sysadmin) and he's already got 2 extra VM hosts on order for horizon... and he already asked me if I'd like more pay. It's a good day.

[–]svsdvfds 15 points16 points  (1 child)

My Pentium 1 is safe.

[–]frankv1971Windows Admin 6 points7 points  (9 children)

Call me stupid but for private organisations that run no VMs other than their own this patch would not be needed (and the performance hit)?

[–]njl4515Security Admin 11 points12 points  (3 children)

Well, if you're running a PowerEdge with Hyper-V or a UCS with VMware locally, it depends on exactly how exploitable this bug is from inside your locked down network. That's actually something I'm having trouble finding as well.

[–]VTCEngineersMistress of Video 5 points6 points  (3 children)

I am assuming no CVE just yet...Or is there?

[–]sethstorm 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Nothing yet. Just incompletely documented patches.

[–]MrKaru 5 points6 points  (4 children)

As a pure gamer, the refund window on my 6600k is coming to an end. I could return it by the 6th for a full refund. Is it worth doing that and getting a 1700x? It's hard to get info on this, and I understand that everybody is saying "We should wait and see", but with a time limit only a few days away, I don't want to jump ship if it's not needed or stick with it and get screwed.

[–]dasunsrule32Lead Administrator[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Then return it and wait to decide what to buy until after.

[–]Mr2-1782Man 6 points7 points  (10 children)

I have an objection to the way the kernel devs are handling this. Seems like they're penalizing everyone for an Intel problem. The line

if (c->x86_vendor != X86_VENDOR_AMD)

is what prevents a CPU from being marked insecure. Even if you don't know coding you should see that this whitelists AMD instead of blacklisting Intel. The problems with this should be obvious. Instead of let's slightly rework the code to be more Intel-like

if (c->x86_vendor == GENUINE_INTEL)
  kill_performance();

[–]DerfK 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Oh man, they better fix that! An additional 50% penalty on my Cyrix 486 is going to make my computer useless!

[–]glassuser 11 points12 points  (7 children)

How much mass does a hardware bug have?

[–]sethstorm 15 points16 points  (6 children)

Until it's properly disclosed, none and infinite, per /u/chihuahua001.

[–]chihuahua001 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Wouldn't it be simultaneously none and infinite until it's observed?

[–]iamnos 30 points31 points  (5 children)

At the end of November, the Intel CEO sold every stock he legally could and still remain CEO.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/12/19/intels-ceo-just-sold-a-lot-of-stock.aspx

This is probably not long after Intel learned about the bug if you consider MS was working on a patch in November.

[–]2y3t8rvIH5PpDnwM7bve 8 points9 points  (0 children)

He returned to roughly what his total ownership was at the beginning of the year. The majority of what he sold was through the purchase and immediate selling of optioned stock.

[–]casino_r0yale 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Yeah because he lives in CA where the Trump taxes are about to railroad us. He’d keep way more money by selling now instead of holding into 2018

π Rendered by PID 75676 on app-570 at 2018-01-03 10:21:13.126993+00:00 running 41be81f country code: JP.