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all 36 comments

[–]TurnThatPaige 35 points36 points  (6 children)

I would not take Lovegood's and a few Redditors' description of Hermione as "close-minded" as general fandom perception. I agree with you that it is a bit of an extreme analysis of her as a person. She is also deeply compassionate and loving.

But...the thing about the burden of proof fallacy is that one can use it to disprove just about any major belief system or anything that does not have hard science to back it. The point that Rowling is trying to make about Hermione here is that she cannot conceive of someone believing something so profoundly as Xeno believes in the Hallows if it is not proven conclusively in a book somewhere. It's why Rowling says that she cannot hear anything beyond the Veil: she cannot truly believe in something (the afterlife, in this instance) unless there is proof. She behaves in a similar way to Trelawney. And it's important to note that in both cases, she's wrong: the Hallows exist, Trelawney can sometimes make predictions, even if she is mostly a fraud.

There is nothing inherently wrong with being a skeptic like Hermione. But skeptics can be wrong. It's just that it can sometimes be socially preferable to not go as far as Hermione does in the Xeno scene disrespecting others' beliefs. It's rude. Some people believe in things that we cannot see, (like the Hallows) and it is what it is.

[–]ObversaRaven / Horned Serpent / Elm with Dragon Core[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There is nothing inherently wrong with being a skeptic like Hermione. But skeptics can be wrong. It's just that it can sometimes be socially preferable to not go as far as Hermione does in the Xeno scene disrespecting others' beliefs. It's rude. Some people believe in things that we cannot see, (like the Hallows) and it is what it is.

I wanted to address this in particular, as I feel that some others on the thread are overlooking the full scope and context of how - and why - Hermione reacted in the way that she did. As always, there are good reasons, and ones that may not be immediately apparent to most, given that the book is from Harry's POV.

[...] consider just how high the stakes were, and how Hermione basically saved Harry's and Ron's arses countless times in Deathly Hallows. The reason she was able to do so? Through her skepticism, planning ahead, and logical thinking.

One wrong move or misstep could - and almost did - result in them being captured, and/or killed, by Death Eaters. (Several times, I might add, such as when Harry saying "Voldemort" activated the Taboo in the coffee shop.) I don't think it's unreasonable at all that, given this, Hermione wanted to make absolutely sure that the Ministry infiltration was nothing less than a success - especially given all of the potential ways it could've gone horribly, massively wrong.

Also consider the enemy they were going up against - Lord Voldemort. According to Dumbledore himself, Tom Riddle / Voldemort had been "one of the most brilliant students Hogwarts had ever seen". Now that Dumbledore was gone, and could no longer protect Harry, Hermione had no choice but to shoulder Dumbledore's Atlas-esque burden, and all on her own. Otherwise, in her mindset...who else would protect Harry in the same way, but herself?

Thus, given the circumstances, I don't think Hermione's heightened emotions around Mr. Lovegood were simply because she was "close-minded". Consider that they had been camping in the tent and been on the run, being hunted as wizarding Britain's biggest fugitives, for a while now - with Hermione doing a vast majority of the leg work - and it's no wonder that her facade "cracked" when Mr. Lovegood made his claim(s).

I also wanted to address this:

But...the thing about the burden of proof fallacy is that one can use it to disprove just about any major belief system or anything that does not have hard science to back it. The point that Rowling is trying to make about Hermione here is that she cannot conceive of someone believing something so profoundly as Xeno believes in the Hallows if it is not proven conclusively in a book somewhere. It's why Rowling says that she cannot hear anything beyond the Veil: she cannot truly believe in something (the afterlife, in this instance) unless there is proof. She behaves in a similar way to Trelawney. And it's important to note that in both cases, she's wrong: the Hallows exist, Trelawney can sometimes make predictions, even if she is mostly a fraud.

And how many times has Hermione been right about something? Far more often than the times she has been wrong. I feel like a lot of people overlook that - whether due to preconcieved biases about her character, or something else - just like the misconception that "Hermione isn't creative".


Pinging /u/ignotusvir to avoid reposting.

[–]AeolianMelodiesAsh, unicorn hair, 11", unyielding 3 points4 points  (2 children)

She is also deeply compassionate and loving.

And? That doesn't mean she open-minded.

[–]TurnThatPaige 15 points16 points  (1 child)

I would actually argue that compassion and empathy are essential for true open-mindedness.

And she shows plenty of those things in her friendships with people like Lupin and Hagrid, who her society (both wizard and muggle) would have her fear. In befriending a werewolf and a half-giant, and even in her misguided but well-intentioned efforts for the house elves, she shows, in the context of her the society in which she lives, open-mindedness towards people/creatures who most write off as below them in some way.

[–]AeolianMelodiesAsh, unicorn hair, 11", unyielding 7 points8 points  (0 children)

You can be open-minded towards people but not towards ideas. I'm actually like that a lot.

[–]TheNobleHouseOf 0 points1 point  (1 child)

You've put it into words very well!

[–]TurnThatPaige 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you! <3

[–]ronin005 15 points16 points  (6 children)

This may not be a direct answer to that but... I think the way Hermione was portrayed is that if she was the sole/main decision maker, decisions would come too late, and a solid answer may not be useful if it comes too late. It was her who tried to prepare longer before the Ministry attack and Hogwarts. Being skeptical (which I'd prefer to call it instead of 'closed-minded') also makes decisions slower, because you will need to collect more evidence before deciding. This is not to say it's a bad trait per se. As a team she was working with an optimist and an intuitive thinker, and they needed a bit of slowing down, as Dumbledore said.

I do agree that calling her 'closed-minded' employing Xenophilius is one-sided. As I said, 'skeptical' would be better.

[–]TurnThatPaige 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Oh, good point! Her rigid attitudes have their benefits, but they are not always to the greater benefit. Harry is right about the Hallows, but of course Dumbledore wanted very badly for her to dissuade him about them. Everyone has their role.

[–]Amy713[🍰] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

She's not skeptical, she's dismissive.

[–]ronin005 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Isn't she both?

The fallacy thing is clearly skeptic thinking, and I do see her acting at times dismissively.

[–]ObversaRaven / Horned Serpent / Elm with Dragon Core[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Of all the answers / comments I've gotten from this thread, yours is the assessment I agree with the most. You have a good point about skepticism - but also consider just how high the stakes were, and how Hermione basically saved Harry's and Ron's arses countless times in Deathly Hallows. The reason she was able to do so? Through her skepticism, planning ahead, and logical thinking.

One wrong move or misstep could - and almost did - result in them being captured, and/or killed, by Death Eaters. (Several times, I might add, such as when Harry saying "Voldemort" activated the Taboo in the coffee shop.) I don't think it's unreasonable at all that, given this, Hermione wanted to make absolutely sure that the Ministry infiltration was nothing less than a success - especially given all of the potential ways it could've gone horribly, massively wrong.

Also consider the enemy they were going up against - Lord Voldemort. According to Dumbledore himself, Tom Riddle / Voldemort had been "one of the most brilliant students Hogwarts had ever seen". Now that Dumbledore was gone, and could no longer protect Harry, Hermione had no choice but to shoulder Dumbledore's Atlas-esque burden, and all on her own. Otherwise, in her mindset...who else would protect Harry in the same way, but herself?

Thus, given the circumstances, I don't think Hermione's heightened emotions around Mr. Lovegood were simply because she was "close-minded". Consider that they had been camping in the tent and been on the run, being hunted as wizarding Britain's biggest fugitives, for a while now - with Hermione doing a vast majority of the leg work - and it's no wonder that her facade "cracked" when Mr. Lovegood made his claim(s).

[–]AeolianMelodiesAsh, unicorn hair, 11", unyielding 7 points8 points  (6 children)

I absolutely love Hermione as a character but her extremely logical side does make her close-minded. It's not just with Luna and her father too.

[–]ykickamoocow111 7 points8 points  (4 children)

True, but it has its benefits too. If Harry listened to Hermione's logic near the end of OotP then Sirius would not have died.

[–]kreton1 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Well, using the floor network from Umbridges office to check if Sirius is still in his house was Hermiones Idea and Harry did listen to her on this.

[–]ykickamoocow111 7 points8 points  (2 children)

True, but Hermione also told Harry that the visions he was seeing was a trick from Voldemort, something Harry flat out ignored.

[–]kreton1 0 points1 point  (1 child)

That is true, you have a point but even then, usually asking kreacher should have been enough.

[–]star_rush 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We have to keep in mind that Sirius was told by Dumbledore to not go to the Ministry that night but he insisted. Harry should have double checked but there were many to blame for Sirius' death, not just Harry.

[–]ObversaRaven / Horned Serpent / Elm with Dragon Core[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can you cite other examples?

[–]kreton1 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I think she is somewhat close minded but not because of what she thinks about the Lovegoods and their Ideas. I think so because she usually refuses to acknowledge something if she has no Authority backing it up. The potions book of the half blood prince was a good example (before the whole sectumsempra thing). She refused to use those obviously good hints for potions making just because they didn't come from a source of authority. Had Snape suddenly mentioned "That is my book" she would have inhaled those scribbles as Snape is an authority. And if the book had Slughorns 7th year lessons in it but nobody told her that, she would have reacted the same.

[–]ziggirawk 5 points6 points  (0 children)

But Hermione is close minded. She's a rationalist, and that's ok. She is written that way on purpose. The entire point of the Luna/Hermione juxtoposition is that you can be intelligent in different ways. Hermione is a very firm rationalist, and is very stubborn, but she is extremely intelligent. Luna is more open to curiosity and belief over proof, but she is very observational and good at thinking outside of the box.

I'll just repeat what I said in another thread about Hermione not fitting in Ravenclaw because she's close minded. Look at the way McGonagall and Luna enter Ravenclaw Tower. McGonagall gives the textbook, rational answer to her question and is allowed in. Luna gives a much more creative answer to hers, but one that is still clever and makes sense, and is allowed in.

It's perfectly ok for Hermione to be stubborn and close minded. It's not an awful thing. The same way it's ok for Luna to be weird and out there. There are different ways to be smart.

Hell, even Lockhart was smart. The guy was a self-made playboy who was making bank and who knew how to work crowds, how to write compelling books(even if the stories were stolen, the writing still had to be good), was amazing at memory charms(and probably charms in general, since we never see memory charms taught in 1st thru 6th year, and they're important enough that they'd probably be mentioned if they were), etc. The guy was one hell of an entrepeneur. That takes brains.

But....as far as your post goes, yeah. People using that particular scene to call Hermione close minded is dumb. The only thing that bothers me is that Hermione doesn't specifically point out the fallacy.

[–]thatguysammojust your average wizard 1 point2 points  (0 children)

yes his arguments were bad... I would equate them to some of the arguments used by theists to try and disprove atheists... but...

Hermione at this stage did still suffer from the belief that the skeptical response is always the more intelligent response... To her skeptical mind the Hallows sounded like ridiculous fantasies, so she was annoyed the moment someone presented the complete opposite response (Xenophilius) and immediately discounts it and attempts to disprove it.

She could quite have easily accepted Xenophiliuses belief, but her natural instinct was to correct him thus showing her superior intellect.

[–]Nyxaus_Motts 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think given who Xenophilius Lovegood is and his resolved belief in the Hallows Hermione is not close-minded. At the time she had the word of a man who at the best of times believes in such outlandish things as Sirius being a musician that was caught in a case of mistaken identity and Fudge having a secret goblin murder chamber. She was also given a children's book, which she can't be faulted for not taking seriously, and Harry's Cloak which while super great wasn't the only cloak they knew of so she was skeptical it was the one from the book. I would like to think if she heard this from someone she respected who could give her legitimate premises to base an argument on she would have been open to the possibility. Personally if some whacked out dude who was acting even stranger than usual was telling me that a fairy tale was real while also telling me a rhinoceros horn was actually a unicorn's I would probably be super close minded. I think it is unfair to call Hermione close minded because she is wary of a super sketchy dude who turns out to have betrayed them.

[–]Amy713[🍰] 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Hermione is the very definition of close minded.

They all have their flaws and strengths, this is one of Hermione's flaws. This is not solely based on the scene you described. She's so close minded that Dumbledore actually counted on her to slow Harry down. But she's not just close minded, she's dismissive and condescending about it, even when it turns out she was wrong, which in the latter books is more often than not. This is when Harry has gone through a lot of character growth while she stayed mostly the same.

[–]Hurtin93 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Counted on her to slow him down? Mind elaborating a bit?

[–]Amy713[🍰] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

He says it directly in the chapter in limbo.

[–]Hurtin93 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Will have to reread it. Am in OOTP now. So glad I got through goblet of fire. Always hardest for me to stay interested.

[–]ignotusvir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If Hermione's response was "Perhaps, but we have no reason to believe this is reliable," then it would be true skepticism. However, Hermione actively insists that the story is false. To give Xeno the most benefit of the doubt, his point to Hermione is that it's very hard to disprove something, and ruling out possibilities is risky. He doesn't take offense to Hermione's retort that his argument is a fallacy. To be extra generous, it's possible that his response "prove that it is not," was to guide Hermione to the fallacy fallacy (motivated, perhaps, by hearing Hermione's dependence upon established information to observe the world)

[–]RIKHAL -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Prove to me that Dumbledore isn't a time travelling Ron Weasley...THEY BOTH LIKE BERTIE BOTT'S EVERY FLAVOUR BEANS?!

https://www.bustle.com/articles/127463-an-examination-of-the-dumbledore-is-a-time-traveling-ron-weasley-theory

[–]Dark8695 -4 points-3 points  (2 children)

If I was a muggle and one day someone said to me that magic was real, I would never question if something was real or not. Hermione is close minded through the whole books.

[–]ObversaRaven / Horned Serpent / Elm with Dragon Core[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But be honest - how many people, aside from yourself, wouldn't believe magic is real? Or that it was, instead, some form of science? Probably the majority. To demonstrate my point, I'll link "Eagle Owl in the Library" - note how many people automatically assume a real, breathing owl is some sort of advanced animatronic upon first glance.

Also, to cite Clarke's third law:

Clarke's Third law is predicated on the assumption that magic is only a descriptor for unnamed and undiscovered science. If Magic is repeatable and observable then it follows that Magic itself can be treated as a science. Clarke's law says that if we ever discover magic, it will just become another application of the scientific method- refined and repeated.

Hermione's approach is based off of Clarke's view, or so it seems. Mr. Lovegood's isn't.

[–]kreton1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Magic is real.

[–]Telsion12,5" Aspen, Phoenix Feather, slightly springy | Goshawk | EoV -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

So that type of reasoning is called fallacy. One learns something new every day.

[–]ObversaRaven / Horned Serpent / Elm with Dragon Core[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not sure if sarcastic or not.

π Rendered by PID 128004 on app-418 at 2017-11-22 01:14:04.955397+00:00 running 021be80 country code: JP.

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all 36 comments

[–]TurnThatPaige 35 points36 points  (6 children)

I would not take Lovegood's and a few Redditors' description of Hermione as "close-minded" as general fandom perception. I agree with you that it is a bit of an extreme analysis of her as a person. She is also deeply compassionate and loving.

But...the thing about the burden of proof fallacy is that one can use it to disprove just about any major belief system or anything that does not have hard science to back it. The point that Rowling is trying to make about Hermione here is that she cannot conceive of someone believing something so profoundly as Xeno believes in the Hallows if it is not proven conclusively in a book somewhere. It's why Rowling says that she cannot hear anything beyond the Veil: she cannot truly believe in something (the afterlife, in this instance) unless there is proof. She behaves in a similar way to Trelawney. And it's important to note that in both cases, she's wrong: the Hallows exist, Trelawney can sometimes make predictions, even if she is mostly a fraud.

There is nothing inherently wrong with being a skeptic like Hermione. But skeptics can be wrong. It's just that it can sometimes be socially preferable to not go as far as Hermione does in the Xeno scene disrespecting others' beliefs. It's rude. Some people believe in things that we cannot see, (like the Hallows) and it is what it is.

[–]ObversaRaven / Horned Serpent / Elm with Dragon Core[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There is nothing inherently wrong with being a skeptic like Hermione. But skeptics can be wrong. It's just that it can sometimes be socially preferable to not go as far as Hermione does in the Xeno scene disrespecting others' beliefs. It's rude. Some people believe in things that we cannot see, (like the Hallows) and it is what it is.

I wanted to address this in particular, as I feel that some others on the thread are overlooking the full scope and context of how - and why - Hermione reacted in the way that she did. As always, there are good reasons, and ones that may not be immediately apparent to most, given that the book is from Harry's POV.

[...] consider just how high the stakes were, and how Hermione basically saved Harry's and Ron's arses countless times in Deathly Hallows. The reason she was able to do so? Through her skepticism, planning ahead, and logical thinking.

One wrong move or misstep could - and almost did - result in them being captured, and/or killed, by Death Eaters. (Several times, I might add, such as when Harry saying "Voldemort" activated the Taboo in the coffee shop.) I don't think it's unreasonable at all that, given this, Hermione wanted to make absolutely sure that the Ministry infiltration was nothing less than a success - especially given all of the potential ways it could've gone horribly, massively wrong.

Also consider the enemy they were going up against - Lord Voldemort. According to Dumbledore himself, Tom Riddle / Voldemort had been "one of the most brilliant students Hogwarts had ever seen". Now that Dumbledore was gone, and could no longer protect Harry, Hermione had no choice but to shoulder Dumbledore's Atlas-esque burden, and all on her own. Otherwise, in her mindset...who else would protect Harry in the same way, but herself?

Thus, given the circumstances, I don't think Hermione's heightened emotions around Mr. Lovegood were simply because she was "close-minded". Consider that they had been camping in the tent and been on the run, being hunted as wizarding Britain's biggest fugitives, for a while now - with Hermione doing a vast majority of the leg work - and it's no wonder that her facade "cracked" when Mr. Lovegood made his claim(s).

I also wanted to address this:

But...the thing about the burden of proof fallacy is that one can use it to disprove just about any major belief system or anything that does not have hard science to back it. The point that Rowling is trying to make about Hermione here is that she cannot conceive of someone believing something so profoundly as Xeno believes in the Hallows if it is not proven conclusively in a book somewhere. It's why Rowling says that she cannot hear anything beyond the Veil: she cannot truly believe in something (the afterlife, in this instance) unless there is proof. She behaves in a similar way to Trelawney. And it's important to note that in both cases, she's wrong: the Hallows exist, Trelawney can sometimes make predictions, even if she is mostly a fraud.

And how many times has Hermione been right about something? Far more often than the times she has been wrong. I feel like a lot of people overlook that - whether due to preconcieved biases about her character, or something else - just like the misconception that "Hermione isn't creative".


Pinging /u/ignotusvir to avoid reposting.

[–]AeolianMelodiesAsh, unicorn hair, 11", unyielding 3 points4 points  (2 children)

She is also deeply compassionate and loving.

And? That doesn't mean she open-minded.

[–]TurnThatPaige 15 points16 points  (1 child)

I would actually argue that compassion and empathy are essential for true open-mindedness.

And she shows plenty of those things in her friendships with people like Lupin and Hagrid, who her society (both wizard and muggle) would have her fear. In befriending a werewolf and a half-giant, and even in her misguided but well-intentioned efforts for the house elves, she shows, in the context of her the society in which she lives, open-mindedness towards people/creatures who most write off as below them in some way.

[–]AeolianMelodiesAsh, unicorn hair, 11", unyielding 7 points8 points  (0 children)

You can be open-minded towards people but not towards ideas. I'm actually like that a lot.

[–]TheNobleHouseOf 0 points1 point  (1 child)

You've put it into words very well!

[–]TurnThatPaige 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you! <3

[–]ronin005 15 points16 points  (6 children)

This may not be a direct answer to that but... I think the way Hermione was portrayed is that if she was the sole/main decision maker, decisions would come too late, and a solid answer may not be useful if it comes too late. It was her who tried to prepare longer before the Ministry attack and Hogwarts. Being skeptical (which I'd prefer to call it instead of 'closed-minded') also makes decisions slower, because you will need to collect more evidence before deciding. This is not to say it's a bad trait per se. As a team she was working with an optimist and an intuitive thinker, and they needed a bit of slowing down, as Dumbledore said.

I do agree that calling her 'closed-minded' employing Xenophilius is one-sided. As I said, 'skeptical' would be better.

[–]TurnThatPaige 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Oh, good point! Her rigid attitudes have their benefits, but they are not always to the greater benefit. Harry is right about the Hallows, but of course Dumbledore wanted very badly for her to dissuade him about them. Everyone has their role.

[–]Amy713[🍰] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

She's not skeptical, she's dismissive.

[–]ronin005 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Isn't she both?

The fallacy thing is clearly skeptic thinking, and I do see her acting at times dismissively.

[–]ObversaRaven / Horned Serpent / Elm with Dragon Core[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Of all the answers / comments I've gotten from this thread, yours is the assessment I agree with the most. You have a good point about skepticism - but also consider just how high the stakes were, and how Hermione basically saved Harry's and Ron's arses countless times in Deathly Hallows. The reason she was able to do so? Through her skepticism, planning ahead, and logical thinking.

One wrong move or misstep could - and almost did - result in them being captured, and/or killed, by Death Eaters. (Several times, I might add, such as when Harry saying "Voldemort" activated the Taboo in the coffee shop.) I don't think it's unreasonable at all that, given this, Hermione wanted to make absolutely sure that the Ministry infiltration was nothing less than a success - especially given all of the potential ways it could've gone horribly, massively wrong.

Also consider the enemy they were going up against - Lord Voldemort. According to Dumbledore himself, Tom Riddle / Voldemort had been "one of the most brilliant students Hogwarts had ever seen". Now that Dumbledore was gone, and could no longer protect Harry, Hermione had no choice but to shoulder Dumbledore's Atlas-esque burden, and all on her own. Otherwise, in her mindset...who else would protect Harry in the same way, but herself?

Thus, given the circumstances, I don't think Hermione's heightened emotions around Mr. Lovegood were simply because she was "close-minded". Consider that they had been camping in the tent and been on the run, being hunted as wizarding Britain's biggest fugitives, for a while now - with Hermione doing a vast majority of the leg work - and it's no wonder that her facade "cracked" when Mr. Lovegood made his claim(s).

[–]AeolianMelodiesAsh, unicorn hair, 11", unyielding 7 points8 points  (6 children)

I absolutely love Hermione as a character but her extremely logical side does make her close-minded. It's not just with Luna and her father too.

[–]ykickamoocow111 7 points8 points  (4 children)

True, but it has its benefits too. If Harry listened to Hermione's logic near the end of OotP then Sirius would not have died.

[–]kreton1 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Well, using the floor network from Umbridges office to check if Sirius is still in his house was Hermiones Idea and Harry did listen to her on this.

[–]ykickamoocow111 7 points8 points  (2 children)

True, but Hermione also told Harry that the visions he was seeing was a trick from Voldemort, something Harry flat out ignored.

[–]kreton1 0 points1 point  (1 child)

That is true, you have a point but even then, usually asking kreacher should have been enough.

[–]star_rush 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We have to keep in mind that Sirius was told by Dumbledore to not go to the Ministry that night but he insisted. Harry should have double checked but there were many to blame for Sirius' death, not just Harry.

[–]ObversaRaven / Horned Serpent / Elm with Dragon Core[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can you cite other examples?

[–]kreton1 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I think she is somewhat close minded but not because of what she thinks about the Lovegoods and their Ideas. I think so because she usually refuses to acknowledge something if she has no Authority backing it up. The potions book of the half blood prince was a good example (before the whole sectumsempra thing). She refused to use those obviously good hints for potions making just because they didn't come from a source of authority. Had Snape suddenly mentioned "That is my book" she would have inhaled those scribbles as Snape is an authority. And if the book had Slughorns 7th year lessons in it but nobody told her that, she would have reacted the same.

[–]ziggirawk 5 points6 points  (0 children)

But Hermione is close minded. She's a rationalist, and that's ok. She is written that way on purpose. The entire point of the Luna/Hermione juxtoposition is that you can be intelligent in different ways. Hermione is a very firm rationalist, and is very stubborn, but she is extremely intelligent. Luna is more open to curiosity and belief over proof, but she is very observational and good at thinking outside of the box.

I'll just repeat what I said in another thread about Hermione not fitting in Ravenclaw because she's close minded. Look at the way McGonagall and Luna enter Ravenclaw Tower. McGonagall gives the textbook, rational answer to her question and is allowed in. Luna gives a much more creative answer to hers, but one that is still clever and makes sense, and is allowed in.

It's perfectly ok for Hermione to be stubborn and close minded. It's not an awful thing. The same way it's ok for Luna to be weird and out there. There are different ways to be smart.

Hell, even Lockhart was smart. The guy was a self-made playboy who was making bank and who knew how to work crowds, how to write compelling books(even if the stories were stolen, the writing still had to be good), was amazing at memory charms(and probably charms in general, since we never see memory charms taught in 1st thru 6th year, and they're important enough that they'd probably be mentioned if they were), etc. The guy was one hell of an entrepeneur. That takes brains.

But....as far as your post goes, yeah. People using that particular scene to call Hermione close minded is dumb. The only thing that bothers me is that Hermione doesn't specifically point out the fallacy.

[–]thatguysammojust your average wizard 1 point2 points  (0 children)

yes his arguments were bad... I would equate them to some of the arguments used by theists to try and disprove atheists... but...

Hermione at this stage did still suffer from the belief that the skeptical response is always the more intelligent response... To her skeptical mind the Hallows sounded like ridiculous fantasies, so she was annoyed the moment someone presented the complete opposite response (Xenophilius) and immediately discounts it and attempts to disprove it.

She could quite have easily accepted Xenophiliuses belief, but her natural instinct was to correct him thus showing her superior intellect.

[–]Nyxaus_Motts 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think given who Xenophilius Lovegood is and his resolved belief in the Hallows Hermione is not close-minded. At the time she had the word of a man who at the best of times believes in such outlandish things as Sirius being a musician that was caught in a case of mistaken identity and Fudge having a secret goblin murder chamber. She was also given a children's book, which she can't be faulted for not taking seriously, and Harry's Cloak which while super great wasn't the only cloak they knew of so she was skeptical it was the one from the book. I would like to think if she heard this from someone she respected who could give her legitimate premises to base an argument on she would have been open to the possibility. Personally if some whacked out dude who was acting even stranger than usual was telling me that a fairy tale was real while also telling me a rhinoceros horn was actually a unicorn's I would probably be super close minded. I think it is unfair to call Hermione close minded because she is wary of a super sketchy dude who turns out to have betrayed them.

[–]Amy713[🍰] 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Hermione is the very definition of close minded.

They all have their flaws and strengths, this is one of Hermione's flaws. This is not solely based on the scene you described. She's so close minded that Dumbledore actually counted on her to slow Harry down. But she's not just close minded, she's dismissive and condescending about it, even when it turns out she was wrong, which in the latter books is more often than not. This is when Harry has gone through a lot of character growth while she stayed mostly the same.

[–]Hurtin93 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Counted on her to slow him down? Mind elaborating a bit?

[–]Amy713[🍰] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

He says it directly in the chapter in limbo.

[–]Hurtin93 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Will have to reread it. Am in OOTP now. So glad I got through goblet of fire. Always hardest for me to stay interested.

[–]ignotusvir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If Hermione's response was "Perhaps, but we have no reason to believe this is reliable," then it would be true skepticism. However, Hermione actively insists that the story is false. To give Xeno the most benefit of the doubt, his point to Hermione is that it's very hard to disprove something, and ruling out possibilities is risky. He doesn't take offense to Hermione's retort that his argument is a fallacy. To be extra generous, it's possible that his response "prove that it is not," was to guide Hermione to the fallacy fallacy (motivated, perhaps, by hearing Hermione's dependence upon established information to observe the world)

[–]RIKHAL -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Prove to me that Dumbledore isn't a time travelling Ron Weasley...THEY BOTH LIKE BERTIE BOTT'S EVERY FLAVOUR BEANS?!

https://www.bustle.com/articles/127463-an-examination-of-the-dumbledore-is-a-time-traveling-ron-weasley-theory

[–]Dark8695 -4 points-3 points  (2 children)

If I was a muggle and one day someone said to me that magic was real, I would never question if something was real or not. Hermione is close minded through the whole books.

[–]ObversaRaven / Horned Serpent / Elm with Dragon Core[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But be honest - how many people, aside from yourself, wouldn't believe magic is real? Or that it was, instead, some form of science? Probably the majority. To demonstrate my point, I'll link "Eagle Owl in the Library" - note how many people automatically assume a real, breathing owl is some sort of advanced animatronic upon first glance.

Also, to cite Clarke's third law:

Clarke's Third law is predicated on the assumption that magic is only a descriptor for unnamed and undiscovered science. If Magic is repeatable and observable then it follows that Magic itself can be treated as a science. Clarke's law says that if we ever discover magic, it will just become another application of the scientific method- refined and repeated.

Hermione's approach is based off of Clarke's view, or so it seems. Mr. Lovegood's isn't.

[–]kreton1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Magic is real.

[–]Telsion12,5" Aspen, Phoenix Feather, slightly springy | Goshawk | EoV -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

So that type of reasoning is called fallacy. One learns something new every day.

[–]ObversaRaven / Horned Serpent / Elm with Dragon Core[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not sure if sarcastic or not.

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