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Spreadsheet | Betting Form | Top 200 Characters | Betting Information


Starting in November 2016, eight dedicated rankers will be dissecting 200 prominent characters in the Harry Potter canon, and ranking them based on their strength as characters. You can see the current rankings in this spreadsheet.

Starting in November 2016, a legion of dedicated commenters will be descending on their posts to argue passionately for their favourites.

Welcome to Harry Potter Rankdown 2.0. We're thrilled to have you here.

This edition's rankers are...

House Ranker
Gryffindor /u/PsychoGeek
Gryffindor /u/theduqoffrat
Hufflepuff /u/ETIwillsaveusall
Hufflepuff /u/Khajiit-ify
Ravenclaw /u/pizzabangle
Ravenclaw /u/seanmik620
Slytherin /u/bubblegumgills
Slytherin /u/Marx0r

The rankers will be able to call on the four Marauders, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs, in order to aid their cutting process and help protect the characters they care about the most.

The /r/harrypotter community will have the opportunity to place bets on which characters they believe will meet the axe in any given month. For more information on betting, please go to this link. If you want to place your bets, just mosey on over to this form.


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all 60 comments

[–]AmEndevomTag 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Just a little point (I have only ready up to that quote):

She actually kidnaps and imprisons a journalist in a jar for a year

Hermione didn't keep Rita in that jar for a year. Rita was supposed not to write any more lies for a year, but Hermione let het out at King's Cross station.

Rita was not sitting in a jar while doing the Quibbler-interview in book 5. ;-)

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I need to get my books tonight and check that. I can't remember if that is 100% the case, though I trust you over my faulty memory.

[–]BasilFronsacRavenclaw 1 point2 points  (1 child)

She imprisoned her in a jar for about a week. Still terrible.

[–]AmEndevomTag 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hey, at least she fed her. ;-)

[–]Maur1neRavenclaw 3 points4 points  (5 children)

This is not directly in response to the (great!) write-up, but I thought I'd mention it because it's often brought up. Her leading Umbridge to the Forbidden Forest is sometimes listed as one of Hermione's more questionable actions. I don't think this is fair. Umbridge was about to torture Harry, so Hermione had to think quickly (and she doesn't always come up with her best ideas in stressful situations). Leading Umbridge to the forest and leaving her to some dangerous beings or creatures that live there was the only possible solution she could come up with at that moment. Her goal was to rescue Harry from the Cruciatus Curse and go on to save Sirius. Harming Umbridge was just a side effect that she didn't care about. She was weighing the well-being and life of two of her friends against the well-being of a person who had very often proven to be evil through and through.

I am inclined to think that Hermione was planning to come across the centaurs. However, believing they'd be happy to "drive her off for [them]" without touching Harry and her, she misjudged them just like she misjudged the house-elves. She probably didn't think much about what exactly the centaurs would do to Umbridge, though. Her plan wasn't about taking revenge on Umgridge for all the horrible things she'd done. She just wanted to rescue her friends and therefore needed Umbridge out of the way.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (4 children)

I can understand why she would do it - leading a theoretically capable witch into a vaguely dangerous situation after said witch threatens to torture Harry, while Sirius's life (as far as she can assume at this point anyway) depends entirely on them, but I do think it was poor judgement on her part to think this plan would actually work.

[–]AmEndevomTag 2 points3 points  (1 child)

but I do think it was poor judgement on her part to think this plan would actually work.

IMO, this is a bit unfair. It's not that Hermione had any time to think about a detailed plan.

Umbridge just announced that she was about to torture Harry. Hermione had seen the Longbottoms in St. Mungo's, she knew what the Cruciatus Curse could do. So she was understandably upset.

Hermione tried to stop Umbridge, first by reasonably telling her, that Fudge wouldn't allow this. Then Umbridge delivers the next blow, announcing that she would simply do it behind Fudge's back, while randomly admitting, that she already tried to kill Harry behind Fudge's back.

Then Hermione had seconds to think of another plan, because Umbridge already was about to torture Harry. And she had some vague idea, which she used. It's not that she had any time to think of a detailed plan.

And besides, she was the only one who in this situation had any idea at all. Harry, Ron, Ginny, Neville and Luna didn't come up with anything. Which is understandable, but given the situation it's still not fair to blame Hermione, that her plan was only half-baked, when nobody else had a plan at all.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

IMO, this is a bit unfair. It's not that Hermione had any time to think about a detailed plan.

Yeah... but I mean, just because I say she's lacking judgement doesn't mean I'm blaming her for it. Her ability to think on her feet is something she is originally terrible at and gets better over time until she's actually quite good (aka, while at Xeno's house, hiding Ron while revealing her and Harry to the Death Eaters is just badass!!).

But actually the poor judgement I was referring to (but was unclear about in my other comment) was just about the centaurs, and nothing to do with her ability to think quickly. Everything else about the plan was very clever (except I guess not detouring to Snape's office, haha, but that's just a joke....). Her judgement of the centaurs wouldn't have changed even if she had plenty of time to think. Her plan would have worked brilliantly if the centaurs were what she thought they were.

And I wouldn't have it any other way, her activist arc is better because she struggles with really understanding what being a good ally actually is, and she improves a lot over the series because of mistakes like this, and it's one of the many reasons I think she is one of the best written characters in the series. So, yes, she lacked judgement, but overall she is leagues ahead of her friends in her ability to think quickly, and I apologize if I'm being unfair to Hermione.

[–]Maur1neRavenclaw 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Maybe she knew herself it wasn't a very good plan, but she simply couldn't think of anything else and probably thought taking the risk of carrying out her plan was better than doing nothing.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's exactly what I think she was doing. She was in a super tight spot and we can't expect perfection, she used what she had available to her, which was basically nothing. Obviously hindsight is 20/20.

[–]edihauRavenclaw 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Knowing you are right and convincing others that you are, are two different things.

This is just one of so many parts of this write-up that made me think, "story of my life!" I really feel like I've been Hermione too, and this is the best write-up I have ever read--but not just because it's Hermione. She's a character that we get to know so much about, because she's not only in the vicinity of our title character, she's constantly creating her own storyline, constantly taking action. We get to learn more about her because she is always doing something to help--and she's so smart that the learning process is never something we see her struggle with. She gets to do more things not only because of this, but because Hermione is not tied down and never wants to be. Sure, the rules are the rules (with the exceptions you pointed out), but it's still a big world out there, and Hermione takes full advantage of it. Harry and Ron lack some combination of willingness and ability to do the same. Neither would have ever started the DA.

The one problem I have with Hermione is one that a few others have chimed in on--her mistakes rarely get traced back to her, even when they matter.

  • Leaving the list of DA members unencrypted in the Room of Requirement is a blunder, but nobody ever says that this is Hermione's mistake, and there's only a little plot point that you'd have to remember in order to know it was her mistake at all. In the same scene, Harry feels fierce respect for Hermione for jinxing the list so well, and this is what we're supposed to feel in this scene--not that she screwed up by insufficiently protecting the list from falling into enemy hands.

  • SPEW is her biggest mistake when it comes to personal missions, but it never comes back to "Ha, Hermione, I knew you were wrong!" Once again, other plot points take precedent in scenes where we figure out that Hermione has messed up (the discussion of gillyweed while Dobby and Harry are in the Gryffindor common room with a bunch of knitted hats; only a small quip after the trio is escorted from the kitchen that includes a retort about Ron only caring about the food anyway, then off to the next scene), and everything is just pushed to the side as a result.

  • When the trio is encased in Devil's snare and she panics, it's a small quip after the fact, and then they're off to the next room.

  • Her obsession with Lockhart isn't mentioned at all after he turns out to be a fraud. And while we see her learning from it after the fact (no longer has a complete trust in books or their authors), there's never a scene where we see her acknowledge this mistake. All we see is the result of her learning from it in future books.

In this way, she's written too perfectly for me to complain about this placement. Once again, phenomenal write-up.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Harry feels fierce respect for Hermione for jinxing the list so well, and this is what we're supposed to feel in this scene--not that she screwed up by insufficiently protecting the list from falling into enemy hands.

An excellent point and something I think one of the things we shockingly realize only when we read the books as adults.

All we see is the result of her learning from it in future books.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I really don't see the problem in not directly addressing her feelings for Lockhart after CoS. I personally feel this is adequately covered in context, especially considering that we see the result of her changing feelings, which seems to abide by the "show, don't tell" thing books often aim for. I forget what book it's in, but Ron teases Hermione and coughs something that sounds like "Lockhart", though I'm not sure Hermione hears, I do feel this is one of a things that address her poor judgement of Lockhart after the fact.

[–]edihauRavenclaw 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I forget what book it's in, but Ron teases Hermione and coughs something that sounds like "Lockhart"

It's in GOF when she feels something for Krum and Ron accuses her of only liking famous people. Missed that detail originally; thanks for checking me--I was wrong to include that as an example.

[–]PsychoGeekGryffindor Ranker 2 points3 points  (3 children)

My feelings for this ranking are saltiness mixed with relief. Relief, because I was genuinely worried she might end up first, saltiness because... wtf? Wasn't the majority opinion on her placement within the 10-15 range last time around? There is no way she should have outranked Snape or Ron or Draco or Sirius, at the very least.

u/a_wisher goes into many reasons why Hermione shouldn't be this high.. much of which I agree with. Another reason for this is that I never felt Hermione had to struggle as much as other characters of her stature. As a consequence, she does not have a truly interesting story. She does not fall apart, hit rock bottom and have to pick herself up. She does not walk out on her friends, does not cause her godfather's death, does not play a pawn in Voldemort's games, does not consider suicide after causing her not-lover's death. She does not have that delicious internal conflict that so attracts me to characters.

That last one is especially a shame, because Hermione's less moral tendencies had great potential for exploration. I could have looked past the good guys going oh well, had Hermione questioned her own decision to curse Marietta. But alas, no moral conflict. All that stuff - the scars, Rita Skeeter, the canaries - which could have been a huge plus to her characterization, instead gives an almost special snowflake like status in the narrative.

Oh, and there's the whole activist arc that's really presented as less of an activist arc and more of an "lol sjw" arc. That story arc really goes nowhere, and the end of things house elves are still greatly offended by her and it never seems that Hermione acknowledges her past mistakes with them. It is very questionable that she has changed at all - even as the conversation with Griphook shows growth in the social justice area, she still has a massive blind spot for house elves. Did you know that we’ve wanted elves to be freed for years?, Hermione tells Griphook proudly, and it is very doubtful she has learned anything at all from her "hide poorly knit clothes in the junk" days.

Hermione is a good character with several layers of characterization (which you brought out brilliantly, great write-up!), but some of these layers are frustratingly underdeveloped and she does not have an accompanying brilliant story. I have her at around 15, roughly the same as Harry. Here I ranked her 9.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I know I push her activist arc more to the "she does learn!" arena while you push it the other way, (which is totally fair, not arguing, I know I see some things in her activist arc that aren't directly there), but I think it's clear she has learned how to handle house-elves at the very least. Harry directly follows her lead on how to handle Kreacher, Harry would never have done it properly without her telling him what to do, and Hermione does it by seeing things from Kreacher's point of view finally. I think anyone who appreciates Kreacher's character arc should also acknowledge the crucial role Hermione plays in it, something she couldn't have done if she was still the misguided person she was with S.P.E.W.

[–]PsychoGeekGryffindor Ranker 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Could you generalize Kreacher's case to all house elves? She certainly manages to see things from Kreacher's PoV in this case, but I don't think she's ever had that trouble when their immediate goals aligned. She's always got along fairly well with Dobby, for instance.

I would be fine going with your view (even if I dislike the lack of acknowledgement of past misdeeds), but what do you make of Hermione's comments on elves to Griphook? She seems to strongly believe in the righteousness of her "free elves" crusade she undertook in the past. She even goes with the pronoun we (ignoring Ron's uncomfortable shuffling at her side) - which is consistent of her overzealousness when dealing with the spew stuff in her fourth and fifth year.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

She's always got along fairly well with Dobby, for instance.

In GoF, she did hold Dobby up in front of the other house-elves as an example of what they should want, and Dobby asked her to stop and seemed very embarrassed. I would not say she understands his point of view at this point, even if Dobby isn't as offended by her as the other house-elves, he still doesn't seem to see totally eye-to-eye with her.

but I don't think she's ever had that trouble when their immediate goals aligned

I don't understand this - are you saying that the desperation of needing something from Kreacher made things click for her in a way they wouldn't have otherwise? This would show that she ultimately learns a lesson from her experience with Kreacher and grows from it in time to talk to Griphook. Or, are you saying she would otherwise have not bothered to help Kreacher (except that their goals aligned) even though she knew how to help him? Neither of these points seem to be the one you're trying to make though, because both of them show that she has grown significantly since S.P.E.W. in understanding the house-elf point of view.

Could you generalize Kreacher's case to all house elves?

Can you insist Kreacher's case is an isolated or accidental event for Hermione? Did she just stumble on the right words to say?

Harry says to Kreacher,

“I don’t understand you, Kreacher,” he said finally. “Voldemort tried to kill you, Regulus died to bring Voldemort down, but you were still happy to betray Sirius to Voldemort?”

But Hermione does understand, she says,

“Harry, Kreacher doesn’t think like that. He’s a slave; house-elves are used to bad, even brutal treatment; what Voldemort did to Kreacher wasn’t that far out of the common way. What do wizard wars mean to an elf like Kreacher? He’s loyal to people who are kind to him, and Mrs. Black must have been, and Regulus certainly was, so he served them willingly and parroted their beliefs”

“[...] Kreacher had been alone for a long time when Sirius came to live here, and he was probably starving for a bit of affection. I’m sure ‘Miss Cissy’ and ‘Miss Bella’ were perfectly lovely to Kreacher when he turned up, so he did them a favor and told them everything they wanted to know. I’ve said all along that wizards would pay for how they treat house-elves. Well, Voldemort did . . . and so did Sirius.”

Harry sits and thinks about what she's said, how it aligns with what Dumbledore had said the night Sirius had died, and he becomes immediately nicer to Kreacher, even though he struggles because Kreacher had just called Hermione a Mudblood.

I also really don't understand what's wrong with what she says to Griphook. I've just re-read that whole scene to try to understand, and it seems fine to me. Should she have gone into the nuances of where she went wrong with Winky? And even if I did get the sense she is overly-righteous (which I don't) I wouldn't blame her because her rant follows Griphook not only claiming that Harry, Ron, and Hermione benefit from Voldemort gaining power because they are wizards, but also that no wizard ever protests for magical creatures rights, something Hermione has devoted years to. Hermione was every bit as righteous as she ought to be, shooting holes in Griphook's ignorance, because Griphook is talking out of his ass about things of which he only has a partial understanding. Hermione doesn't need a history of perfectly-executed activism to back up her righteousness, she just needs a history of protesting, and that she absolutely did.

edit: I also want to add, I don't think she is as analytical of her arc as we are, meaning I don't think she is necessarily aware that she went about it the wrong way back then, I just think she just wouldn't do it that way anymore. Sometimes I don't realize how far I've come until I'm reading an old diary entry or reddit post. If it weren't for having my own words staring back at me, I'd probably forget that I ever saw things differently than I do now.

[–]a_wisherRavenclaw 4 points5 points  (13 children)

takes a deep breath

Oh man, I think I'm going to be hated for the comment I'm going to make. But the spirit of HPR2 is discussion so... To start with, I love this write-up. I truly do. I agree with (almost) all the points made and I think it's a great write-up showing why Hermione shouldn't be in Top 3.

But before we get into that, I have to say that I love Hermione. Back when the series was still in progress, she was my favourite character. As an idealist teenager, she was the role-model that I aspired to be like. And Hermione Granger is a great role model - like BGG said, she showed that when one applies oneself, there's no limit to what we can achieve. I wanted to be like her, even if I was a guy. Because Hermione obliterated the limits imposed on gender or race. I cheered for her and basked in her sheer awesomeness.

Books! And cleverness! There are more important things ...

For me, this quote defines what is Hermione Granger. Many tend to limit her to her intelligence but she's so so so much more than that. There's this scene where she arrives at the Yule Ball with one of the most sought guys, utterly transformed and different. Harry thinks how at that moment, she isn't preoccupied about house elves. Or how without the weight of books, her posture seems so different. For me, this moment shows that beneath that logical and determined persona, Hermione is a girl like everyone, where she wanted to be the prettiest girl in the ball. And it's great thing because it makes her human. There's also the famous 'emotional range of teaspoon' scene where Hermione explains about Cho's dilemma. Or how she advises and helps Ginny. I love this because people tend to equal feminists with these cold 'nagging' emotionless stereotype which is so wrong. Everyone can be a feminist. IMO, what makes Hermione truly extraordinary is her emotional side, her empathy.

Hermione Granger encompasses the traits of all the Hogwarts house: the bravery and daring of Gryffindor, the ambition of Slytherin, the wit and knowledge of Ravenclaw and the unfaltering loyalty and compassion of Hufflepuff.

I agree with this (I actually had the very same thought when I was thinking about Hermione's failing as a character) and this is where her characterisation falters. Having characteristics of all four houses isn't wrong. Harry has Gryffindor's bravery, Slytherin's resourcefulness, Hufflepuff's loyalty and Ravenclaw's wit. But it works for Harry because we see where that these qualities stemmed from - resourcefulness from the abuse of Dursley/Harry-hunting; wit as coping mechanism; loyalty for this new world that accepted him with open hands; bravery from his parents who sacrificed themselves for him... For Hermione, we don't have that. So it comes across as... 'deus-ex-machina' (I'm not sure if it's the word I want)? Skeeter needs a firm hand? Let's make Hermione ruthless. Need an illegal group? Let's make Hermione break rules. Need someone to oppose the HBP book? Let's make Hermione follow the rules. Without a background story to explain such a wide range of opposing traits, Hermione's characterisation becomes confusing.

And I think the issue is the origin of the character in itself - Hermione is, by JKR's own admission, a self-insert. I'm not saying that she's a Mary Sue (she's definitely not) But Hermione's qualities are openly acknowledged and exaggerated but her flaws often go unquestioned. It might be an unconscious move on JKR's part but it is there.

Talking about her 'official' flaws, they are her bossiness/nagging and her stubborness to not stop when it's time too. IMO, these are like the flaws that you tell your prospective employer during an interview - I work too hard, I can be too focused... Yes, she does suffer for this (in PS & PoA). But these flaws help the trio so many times - whether it's the nagging during exams or the drive even when no answers loom on the horizon.

Hermione's true flaws, however, are completely unquestioned or are even lauded. This is where she pales in comparison to Harry & Ron. When Harry brings them to DoM, he gets Sirius killed & everyone doubts him in HBP. When he ignores Ron in DH, he brings the Snatchers to them and gets them kidnapped. When Ron leaves the group in DH, he gets attacked by Snatchers and his two friends had to face Nagini alone. But Hermione? When she kidnaps and imprisons Rita? Instead of being treated a flaw, it becomes a positive trait since it gives them leverage for the Quibbler article. When she scars Marietta? Her friends doesn't seem to be bothered at all and no consequence from the staff. She's the one to form the DA yet it's Harry who faces the fall in Dumbledore's office (it becomes his fault). Whether it's doubting Harry about Malfoy being DE or breaking his wand, it's just a comment (or just a look in the former's case) and nothing more (compared to weeks' of silence for Ron when he returns).

Coming back to my initial comment, this is why Hermione works as a role model. She's this perfect symbol - a great benchmark to aspire to. That's why the idealist me idolised her in my teenage years. And that's why the realist me see that she's 'too perfect to be true'. Because everyone falters and everyone makes mistakes which one would have to face consequences for. So yes, in terms of likeability, Hermione would certainly be in my Top 3 but for literary merit, I'm afraid not.

Would end this (so effing long!) comment by re-iterating that it was a great write-up. Based on my own interpretation and personal experience, I simply disagree with certain points.

[–]BasilFronsacRavenclaw 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Ad the DA and Hermione's flaws.

“Ernie, do you really think I’d leave that list lying around?” said Hermione testily.

...

And to Harry’s horror, she withdrew from her pocket the list of names that had been pinned upon the Room of Requirement’s wall and handed it to Fudge.

Without Hermione the Ministry and Umbridge wouldn't know the name of the DA and its members.

[–]AmEndevomTag 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I was never sure about this one, because Umbridge said:

We needed evidence and the room provided it.

So it may be that the Room of Requirement made the DA list appear out of thin air.

[–]BasilFronsacRavenclaw 3 points4 points  (3 children)

She pinned the piece of paper with all of their names on it on the wall and wrote DUMBLEDORE’S ARMY across the top in large letters.

If she hid it in Gryffindor common room, Umbridge probably wouldn't be able to get it. So I'd say it's Hermione's fault that she didn't hide it better or "encrypt" it.

[–]AmEndevomTag 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I still thinks this scene is a bit unclear. We don't know that she didn't take the piece of paper from, when she was escaping. All we know is that according to Umbridge, the room provided the evidence.

In Deathly Hallows The RoR produced whole bathrooms, so teleporting a piece of paper into the room, because Umbridge asked for some evidence, seems to be a comparatively simple task.

And by the way, I would prefer if Hermione had just left the parchment in the Room, because she was in a hurry. It would have led to one of her actions having bad consequences in a very believable and realistic way. But I'm not sure this is what we are meant to think.

[–]a_wisherRavenclaw 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If the RoR truly teleports items into the room for you, then, it would be very over-powered, IMO. You just have request for the Philosopher's Stone or the Elder Wand or any desired item and it's in your hand. And then, there would be the question of why it didn't teleport food from the kitchen for the DA in DH. I like to think that in a hurry, she left the paper there (it's a very natural reaction given the panic).

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And by the way, I would prefer if Hermione had just left the parchment in the Room, because she was in a hurry. It would have led to one of her actions having bad consequences in a very believable and realistic way. But I'm not sure this is what we are meant to think.

This is actually exactly what I think. The last mention of the parchment is her pinning it to the wall of the room, isn't it?

[–]Maur1neRavenclaw 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I agree with a lot of what you said; I'd just like to add that while Hermione doesn't face direct consequences after scarring Marietta, she is, in a way, confronted with it in HBP during her stay at the Burrow over the summer, when she is hit by the twins' telescope, which leaves her with a black eye that she isn't able to get rid of until they visit Fred and George in their store and they tell her how to remove it. Hermione spends a while worrying she'll look like "half a panda" for the rest of her life. Although the curse on the DA paper didn't cause this incident, I do interpret the latter as a response to the former in a literary sense. It's not much, and there's no indication that Hermione connects this event to Marietta's pimples, let alone feels remorse, but at least one could interpret this to say that the narrative doesn't completely excuse Hermione's actions, even though nobody but Cho openly says that Hermione went too far.

Also, I don't see Hermione as a role model. Her rigid narrow-mindedness and her strict obeying of rules unless she disapproves and takes drastic, questionable actions may not be strongly punished or even pointed out by the narrative, but in my opinion they are flaws nonetheless. A flawless character that works as a perfect role model would be boring, though. If anything, I prefer to regard someone as a role model in regards to certain aspects of their personality or behaviour and have other role models for different character traits.

[–]a_wisherRavenclaw 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Never thought of the black eye as literary justice for the scarring. That said, I do understand (and somewhat agree too). Like you said, even it's the case, it's still an unbalanced situation - Hermione's black eye disappears after a day but Marietta's scarring remains even after months and is visible even with makeup.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A flawless character that works as a perfect role model would be boring, though. If anything, I prefer to regard someone as a role model in regards to certain aspects of their personality or behaviour and have other role models for different character traits.

....So basically Hermione is a role model just like any other flawed character.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (3 children)

So it comes across as... 'deus-ex-machina' (I'm not sure if it's the word I want)? Skeeter needs a firm hand? Let's make Hermione ruthless. Need an illegal group? Let's make Hermione break rules. Need someone to oppose the HBP book? Let's make Hermione follow the rules. Without a background story to explain such a wide range of opposing traits, Hermione's characterisation becomes confusing.

Deus Ex Machina might be the wrong word, but I think I understand what you mean. Without Hermione's backstory, who is she?

I would have loved to have more of the "How Muggle parents react to witches" aspect that her parents could have brought to the series. I mean, think of the amount of humor that could have come out of the Grangers experiencing Diagon Alley! It also would be interesting to get a sense of how her parents felt about Hermione barely seeing them, choosing her new life over them. In these ways, I think knowing her parents could only have been a benefit to the series and would have added an interesting angle to Hermione.

But I disagree that we need to know those things in order to understand why she is ruthless or why she sometimes abides by rules and sometimes doesn't. In fact, I think these aspects of her are the strongest part of her characterization because they are so well done despite not having a character background. She grows right in front of our eyes, and we can see how her experiences shape who she is. Her relationship with authority and books changes throughout the series based on her experiences. Someone once said on this sub that she blindly trusts books, but that's not true at all. She starts out blindly trusting them, but learns in CoS that authors can have an alterior motive (Lockhart's books, an awareness that prepares her for Rita Skeeter and Umbridge's DADA book), she learns in PoA that not all reference material is comprehensive (unregistered animagi, a skill she'll use with Rita), she learns in GoF that books gloss over negative information (no house-elves in Hogwarts, A History, which prepares her for Rita Skeeter's book). Just halfway through the series she is no longer blindly trusting books at all, and this transition is documented in the plot, and her growth then feeds back into the plot, and then the plot feeds back into her characterization. The way the plot and her characterization are so well crafted together is at the core of why I think she is one of the best written characters. And as much as I love Dumbledore, his characterization is so god damned sloppy in the first three books, that I absolutely definitely four thousand gazillion percent love how Hermione's is so well done.

Her rule-breaking follows a similar growth, which I won't bother to get into, because I think /u/bubblegumgills covers it well with,

Hermione respects rules and authority, yes, but they need to respect her back.

Hermione sees the structure and value in rules, and wants a structured world, but the structure is not always fair or moral or to her benefit. In those times she is willing to break the rules. I think this makes sense for her characterization even without knowing about her childhood. I would even say we are witnessing her childhood. Maybe Harry enters the story already "resourceful" and "brave" because of his known earlier hardships, but with Hermione, we are witnessing her experiencing the hardships that develop these qualities in her. I wouldn't automatically call that bad.

But like I said, I actually do think we could have benefitted from knowing more about her childhood, I just don't think one of those benefits would be to clarify an apparently confusing characterization, because I don't think her characterization is confusing.

[–]a_wisherRavenclaw 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I loved the idea of Hermione's growth through her dwindling trust in books. I agree with what you said. But doesn't her reaction in HBP negate that? She reverts back to her earlier stances where she says that printed methods are the ones to follow and not the notes from a stranger, even when the results show otherwise. Her Potions keep being subpar yet she keeps trusting the official instructions in the book.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great example, but I don't think she is reverting back to her old stance at all. If I've appeared to say Hermione distrusts all published books, then I'll clear things up now. Being skeptical of where your information comes from doesn't mean you universally distrust all books forever, it just means you don't automatically trust it just because it's written. She is very very very skeptical of the Half-Blood Prince, so I think she is acting perfectly in line with her characterization.

She is also fueled by jealousy because she works hard to get good grades and Harry isn't working hard at all and getting all the glory, but to be honest, I think despite her jealousy and emotion, it's her logical skepticism that is the major factor in her distrust of the book. Some random unknown person is writing notes in the margin of this book and her friend is blindly trusting it? Not on Hermione's watch! Hermione devotes months of research to discovering who the Half-Blood Prince is while constantly warning Harry how dangerous it is to blindly trust this book.

I wouldn't say she is reverting to her past stance at all, but is using her previously learned skepticism.

edit: clarification

[–]Maur1neRavenclaw 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I partially agree. I'm not sure if Hermione really ever comes to mistrust books. On the other hand, I think in potions lessons in HBP her main motivation to stick the book were different. If she had stopped following the original instructions, she would have indirectly admitted that the HBP was right. She also didn't have many other options. She lacked Snape's brilliant understanding of potions and wouldn't have been able to alter the instructions to get better results. Hence she would have had to ask Harry for the HBP's notes and there was no way she'd admit the HBP was better at options than her after all the times she had openly disapproved of his (in her mind: her) notes (not only on potions but also the spells he'd invented). But you're right, in their first potions lesson in HBP, when Harry tells her and Ron how to achieve better results, her initial reaction is to point out that the book says differently, so it was probably a combination of reluctance to mistrust books, unwillingness to admit that someone was better than her and being suspicious of the HBP.

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Hermione Granger was Ranked #9 by /u/DabuSurvivor in /r/HPRankdown

The Betters ranked her 2 with an average score of 3.45

THE FOLLOWING PEOPLE GOT THIS RANK SPOT ON

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Level Gryffindor Hufflepuff Ravenclaw Slytherin Muggle
SPOT ON 4 8 5 4 2
WITHIN 1 8 13 16 4 1
WITHIN 2 10 9 14 9 0
WITHIN 3 2 2 7 1 1
WITHIN 4 1 0 4 2 0

[–]ETIwillsaveusallHufflepuff Ranker 12 points13 points  (1 child)

THE BETTERS RANKED HIM 2 WITH AN AVERAGE SCORE OF 3.45

“Just because it’s taken you three years to notice, Ron, doesn’t mean no one else has spotted I’m a girl!”

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah totally changed it now!

[–]Khajiit-ifyHufflepuff Ranker 1 point2 points  (7 children)

/u/TheDuqOfFRAT I love how you unintentionally called me by my alternate account LMAO.

BGG this was an amazing cut. <3 It's been such a pleasure to work alongside you for the last 9 months.

[–]theduqoffratGryffindor Ranker 2 points3 points  (1 child)

THERES TOO MANY OF YOU

[–]Khajiit-ifyHufflepuff Ranker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lmao. <3 luv ya, duq. Hahahahaha.

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I saw that and didn't want to change it! :P

Thank you <3 I've been a wild ride and I can't imagine a cooler set of people to do this alongside.

[–]oomps62 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Wait, are you Larixon?

[–]Khajiit-ifyHufflepuff Ranker 2 points3 points  (2 children)

This should become a meme with how many people seem to have missed that fact lmao.

[–]oomps62 0 points1 point  (1 child)

:P

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

But oomps, who is /u/poomps62?

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (9 children)

To start off extremely pedantically,

When she figures out Rita Skeeter’s secret, Hermione doesn’t just blackmail. She actually kidnaps and imprisons a journalist in a jar for a year

She can't have imprisoned her for a year, unless you mean she is figuratively imprisoned by Hermione's blackmail, because she kidnaps her at the end of the school year (May/June? I'm not sure what month), but the next February is anxiously waiting for a letter from Rita Skeeter. I've actually always assumed she let Rita go after they got off the train or shortly after anyway, and that's when the blackmailing started.

This same thing happens to Umbridge. Hermione respects rules and authority, yes, but they need to respect her back.

Ahhh, such a good line and describes Hermione very well!

but I do think she wanted to frighten her (and things got out of hand when she underestimated Umbridge’s racist tendencies)

I don't personally feel she underestimated Umbridge's racist tendancies, I think she didn't realize how reactionary and violent the centaurs would be. I think she thought a witch with a wand could probably handle herself, and they'd battle it out, but everyone would ultimately be alive and all that, and meanwhile Harry and Hermione could run away because they are "just kids". Meaning what she really did was underestimate her own racist tendancies because that was really low of her to use the centaurs that way.

She embodies feminist traits of wanting a better life for everyone, not just the privileged few.

I love this so much! And especially because while she fights for others, she isn't perfect, and doesn't do things very well at first, but she grows in this, and I think that's great. Though, as others have pointed out, her activism arc could have been more front and center and kind of wasn't addressed at all a the end of the series.

Galadriel’s speech in The Fellowship of the Ring

Oh my god, you just reminded me that Galadriel is my favorite character in LOTR, not Sam! Or maybe they're tied. Movie Galadriel is great and god knows I want to grow up to be Cate Blanchett, but Book Galadriel just blew me away. God, what a fantastic character. I need to re-read her scenes, because I already kind of forget why I love her so much.


Well, /u/Moostronus, it looks like #1 and #2 are our favorites.

[–]MoostronusRanker 1.0, Analysis 2.0 3 points4 points  (8 children)

Seeing Lupin in the top two is making me way happier than I ever should be in a concentration camp.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Happiness can be found even in the darkest of places.

(to be perfectly honest, though, I don't know how true that is. I'm glad that's a movie quote, and not a book quote, I can't really see book Dumbledore saying that, or at least phrasing it that way. It's like..... it's a nice quote and I'm glad people like it (and I like it too) - okay this is turning rambly, but whatever, the rankdown is almost over and I'm running out of opportunities to ramble in front of an audience that actually might read it, but the quote is a bit too...... everything-is-going-to-be-alright type of comforting, and that's not really Dumbledore's style. But I am really really really really really happy that people find comfort in these words - like this girl who's family was murdered and she used this quote. It is amazing that she uses this quote to uncover whatever comfort and happiness she can.

And I guess it's a little bit better than "everything's going to be alright", because at least movie Dumbledore is saying the strength comes from within, which is something Dumbledore would emphasis...

I don't know, it's one of those lines that in some scenarios feels like it's saying "Just be happy!" and in other scenarios helps people have perspective and gives them the strength to get through serious hardships... I guess no quote works for every situation... Maybe my biggest gripe with it isn't that it's a bad quote, but that I feel really shitting using it for a concentration camp - the darkest place of all...)

[–]MoostronusRanker 1.0, Analysis 2.0 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Honestly, we're taking that attitude. We're sitting around and drinking and swapping stories and playing violin. The antidote to hate is love.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Cheers to that!!

(although I was thinking more about how the people who suffered in the camps might feel about this line, and not those visiting it afterward, but either way, I think I'm going to shut up about this line and let people find happiness any way they can - so long as it doesn't hurt anybody else obviously)

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

I NEED YOUR OPINION ON THIS CUT MOOS

[–]MoostronusRanker 1.0, Analysis 2.0 1 point2 points  (2 children)

IN DUE TIME PROBABLY TONIGHT I JUST GOT OFF A TRAIN FROM BUDAPEST TO BERLIN

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

NOT GOOD ENOUGH MOOS. I NEED YOUR VALIDATION OPINION DAMMIT.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Moving from planes to trains I see.

[–]PsychoGeekGryffindor Ranker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

IT'S COMPLETE SHIT

WOULD HAVE BEEN GREAT HAD IT BEEN AT LIKE THIRTEEN

[–]MoostronusRanker 1.0, Analysis 2.0 1 point2 points  (2 children)

BGG, the time has finally come for me to say nice things about you. Slytherin was absolute murder to choose, because there were so many brilliant, talented people. Your application really stuck out, though, because of your commitment to intertextuality when analyzing Harry Potter, a concept which I fucking love on a scholarly level. We hadn't seen it before in Rankdown, and I'm so thrilled that you brought it here. You brought a clarity and depth of thinking that Rankdown 2.0 so desperately needed at times. Thank you for your service, and now your watch is ended.

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm so excited for our drinks now!

[–]MoostronusRanker 1.0, Analysis 2.0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

:D

[–]jel99 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Number of Times Betters' Guesses Were Spot On:

6+ out of 8: 0 people

5 out of 8: 2 people - PsychoGeek, shaantya

4 out of 8: 2 people - doormouse1, Hattless

3 out of 8: 11 people - AmEndeVomTag, jel99, minesweepers, Nerusan, ObeseOwl, PikaV2002, Redbookbluebook, Silvestress, Theotech, Undividable410, wantsome_moore

2 out of 8: 34 people - -MrJ-, a_wisher, aegongreyjoy, AnOrangeCactus, AweBeyCon, Baronvonrothenstein, BasilFronsac, beep5, BEETLEJUICEME, bowtiesrcool86 , bubbasaurus, Dead-thing, Digidark123321, domusdecus, ellie102, HeartChakra22, Hplove21, Hufflepuff_, infinityxero, jarris123, jeanclawheron, jlim201, MacabreGoblin, mindputtee, Oskar31415, rhinorhinoo, Seanmik620, sparksbet, starflashfairy, Suitelifeofem, themixedqueenb, Throwawayjust_incase, Wazzup44, Williukea

1 out of 8: 51 people - MrSnowflake2, 10forever, Accio-username, alexi_lupin, Aralia_, Arctiva , Ayaa96, beyondtheveil13, bisonburgers, Celest3alove, Childish__Gambino, Deidana, eclectique, emsmale, eyl327, f4nnypacks, Feminist_Cat, gorillabut, HeatherLeMouse, HermioneReynaChase, Husblah, ibigandscary, Kakumei_keahi, kirri18, kitkatlibrarian, Kiwias, lizzyrizzy, Maur1ne, MirandaTheSavage, mumbling_marauder, nosucces, pezes, pinguemcecidero, Ravenclawintj, RavenoftheSands, Rozejade, Ryan814, ryette, ShirtlessKirk46, SirHealer, snowjewel, spludgiexx, svipy, swooping_evil, TheJoshwa, thereefa, thtdharris1, Thunderkron, timland33, Whitebri, Zaplyn 0 out of 8: 33 people - anuragkadiyala, asdf-user, asilentletter, Atibabykt , cardsfan90909, Chefjones, DarcRose22, dawnphoenix, Dina-M, edihau, El_Quetzal, Feverel, HashcoinShitstorm, HermioneChaseKenobi, IIEarlGreyII, justonekindoffolks, KackelDackel, LoseHerSong, Mika6523, milcom_, MockingbirdRambler, NiteMary, Omg_Neil, ptrst, Queenstaysqueen, Quote_the_Ravenclaw, Rockwithsunglasses, Seekaterun, Superboy1777, teddiekeet, Telsion, TKtheOne, xeferial

Top Betters

Rank User House Doe Pts
#1 PsychoGeek Muggle 72
#2 jeanclawheron Ravenclaw 62
#2 jel99 Ravenclaw 62
#2 Maur1ne Ravenclaw 62
#2 rhinorhinoo Ravenclaw 62
#6 bisonburgers Gryffindor 60
#6 Seanmik620 Muggle 60
#6 spludgiexx Ravenclaw 60
#6 wantsome_moore Hufflepuff 60

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Are the top better results just counting the votes for top ten?

[–]jel99 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The points are just based on how close the bets were to the actual rank (from rank #10 until this one). The scoring is 10 pts for spot on, 8 for 1 off, 6 for 2 off, 4 for 3 off, and 2 for 4 off.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh, got it! Thanks!

[–]RavenclawINTJMolly was robbed 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hermione was my favorite character for years until Molly took her place. She still falls in the 2-4 range for me. I'm shocked and excited that she made it this high since she always seems to have a lot of haters in this part of the fanbase.

Edit: Given the characters in the endgame, I would have Hermione at number 1. She is the only character in my current top 5 to make endgame.

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Spreadsheet | Betting Form | Top 200 Characters | Betting Information


Starting in November 2016, eight dedicated rankers will be dissecting 200 prominent characters in the Harry Potter canon, and ranking them based on their strength as characters. You can see the current rankings in this spreadsheet.

Starting in November 2016, a legion of dedicated commenters will be descending on their posts to argue passionately for their favourites.

Welcome to Harry Potter Rankdown 2.0. We're thrilled to have you here.

This edition's rankers are...

House Ranker
Gryffindor /u/PsychoGeek
Gryffindor /u/theduqoffrat
Hufflepuff /u/ETIwillsaveusall
Hufflepuff /u/Khajiit-ify
Ravenclaw /u/pizzabangle
Ravenclaw /u/seanmik620
Slytherin /u/bubblegumgills
Slytherin /u/Marx0r

The rankers will be able to call on the four Marauders, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs, in order to aid their cutting process and help protect the characters they care about the most.

The /r/harrypotter community will have the opportunity to place bets on which characters they believe will meet the axe in any given month. For more information on betting, please go to this link. If you want to place your bets, just mosey on over to this form.


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all 60 comments

[–]AmEndevomTag 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Just a little point (I have only ready up to that quote):

She actually kidnaps and imprisons a journalist in a jar for a year

Hermione didn't keep Rita in that jar for a year. Rita was supposed not to write any more lies for a year, but Hermione let het out at King's Cross station.

Rita was not sitting in a jar while doing the Quibbler-interview in book 5. ;-)

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I need to get my books tonight and check that. I can't remember if that is 100% the case, though I trust you over my faulty memory.

[–]BasilFronsacRavenclaw 1 point2 points  (1 child)

She imprisoned her in a jar for about a week. Still terrible.

[–]AmEndevomTag 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hey, at least she fed her. ;-)

[–]Maur1neRavenclaw 3 points4 points  (5 children)

This is not directly in response to the (great!) write-up, but I thought I'd mention it because it's often brought up. Her leading Umbridge to the Forbidden Forest is sometimes listed as one of Hermione's more questionable actions. I don't think this is fair. Umbridge was about to torture Harry, so Hermione had to think quickly (and she doesn't always come up with her best ideas in stressful situations). Leading Umbridge to the forest and leaving her to some dangerous beings or creatures that live there was the only possible solution she could come up with at that moment. Her goal was to rescue Harry from the Cruciatus Curse and go on to save Sirius. Harming Umbridge was just a side effect that she didn't care about. She was weighing the well-being and life of two of her friends against the well-being of a person who had very often proven to be evil through and through.

I am inclined to think that Hermione was planning to come across the centaurs. However, believing they'd be happy to "drive her off for [them]" without touching Harry and her, she misjudged them just like she misjudged the house-elves. She probably didn't think much about what exactly the centaurs would do to Umbridge, though. Her plan wasn't about taking revenge on Umgridge for all the horrible things she'd done. She just wanted to rescue her friends and therefore needed Umbridge out of the way.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (4 children)

I can understand why she would do it - leading a theoretically capable witch into a vaguely dangerous situation after said witch threatens to torture Harry, while Sirius's life (as far as she can assume at this point anyway) depends entirely on them, but I do think it was poor judgement on her part to think this plan would actually work.

[–]AmEndevomTag 2 points3 points  (1 child)

but I do think it was poor judgement on her part to think this plan would actually work.

IMO, this is a bit unfair. It's not that Hermione had any time to think about a detailed plan.

Umbridge just announced that she was about to torture Harry. Hermione had seen the Longbottoms in St. Mungo's, she knew what the Cruciatus Curse could do. So she was understandably upset.

Hermione tried to stop Umbridge, first by reasonably telling her, that Fudge wouldn't allow this. Then Umbridge delivers the next blow, announcing that she would simply do it behind Fudge's back, while randomly admitting, that she already tried to kill Harry behind Fudge's back.

Then Hermione had seconds to think of another plan, because Umbridge already was about to torture Harry. And she had some vague idea, which she used. It's not that she had any time to think of a detailed plan.

And besides, she was the only one who in this situation had any idea at all. Harry, Ron, Ginny, Neville and Luna didn't come up with anything. Which is understandable, but given the situation it's still not fair to blame Hermione, that her plan was only half-baked, when nobody else had a plan at all.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

IMO, this is a bit unfair. It's not that Hermione had any time to think about a detailed plan.

Yeah... but I mean, just because I say she's lacking judgement doesn't mean I'm blaming her for it. Her ability to think on her feet is something she is originally terrible at and gets better over time until she's actually quite good (aka, while at Xeno's house, hiding Ron while revealing her and Harry to the Death Eaters is just badass!!).

But actually the poor judgement I was referring to (but was unclear about in my other comment) was just about the centaurs, and nothing to do with her ability to think quickly. Everything else about the plan was very clever (except I guess not detouring to Snape's office, haha, but that's just a joke....). Her judgement of the centaurs wouldn't have changed even if she had plenty of time to think. Her plan would have worked brilliantly if the centaurs were what she thought they were.

And I wouldn't have it any other way, her activist arc is better because she struggles with really understanding what being a good ally actually is, and she improves a lot over the series because of mistakes like this, and it's one of the many reasons I think she is one of the best written characters in the series. So, yes, she lacked judgement, but overall she is leagues ahead of her friends in her ability to think quickly, and I apologize if I'm being unfair to Hermione.

[–]Maur1neRavenclaw 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Maybe she knew herself it wasn't a very good plan, but she simply couldn't think of anything else and probably thought taking the risk of carrying out her plan was better than doing nothing.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's exactly what I think she was doing. She was in a super tight spot and we can't expect perfection, she used what she had available to her, which was basically nothing. Obviously hindsight is 20/20.

[–]edihauRavenclaw 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Knowing you are right and convincing others that you are, are two different things.

This is just one of so many parts of this write-up that made me think, "story of my life!" I really feel like I've been Hermione too, and this is the best write-up I have ever read--but not just because it's Hermione. She's a character that we get to know so much about, because she's not only in the vicinity of our title character, she's constantly creating her own storyline, constantly taking action. We get to learn more about her because she is always doing something to help--and she's so smart that the learning process is never something we see her struggle with. She gets to do more things not only because of this, but because Hermione is not tied down and never wants to be. Sure, the rules are the rules (with the exceptions you pointed out), but it's still a big world out there, and Hermione takes full advantage of it. Harry and Ron lack some combination of willingness and ability to do the same. Neither would have ever started the DA.

The one problem I have with Hermione is one that a few others have chimed in on--her mistakes rarely get traced back to her, even when they matter.

  • Leaving the list of DA members unencrypted in the Room of Requirement is a blunder, but nobody ever says that this is Hermione's mistake, and there's only a little plot point that you'd have to remember in order to know it was her mistake at all. In the same scene, Harry feels fierce respect for Hermione for jinxing the list so well, and this is what we're supposed to feel in this scene--not that she screwed up by insufficiently protecting the list from falling into enemy hands.

  • SPEW is her biggest mistake when it comes to personal missions, but it never comes back to "Ha, Hermione, I knew you were wrong!" Once again, other plot points take precedent in scenes where we figure out that Hermione has messed up (the discussion of gillyweed while Dobby and Harry are in the Gryffindor common room with a bunch of knitted hats; only a small quip after the trio is escorted from the kitchen that includes a retort about Ron only caring about the food anyway, then off to the next scene), and everything is just pushed to the side as a result.

  • When the trio is encased in Devil's snare and she panics, it's a small quip after the fact, and then they're off to the next room.

  • Her obsession with Lockhart isn't mentioned at all after he turns out to be a fraud. And while we see her learning from it after the fact (no longer has a complete trust in books or their authors), there's never a scene where we see her acknowledge this mistake. All we see is the result of her learning from it in future books.

In this way, she's written too perfectly for me to complain about this placement. Once again, phenomenal write-up.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Harry feels fierce respect for Hermione for jinxing the list so well, and this is what we're supposed to feel in this scene--not that she screwed up by insufficiently protecting the list from falling into enemy hands.

An excellent point and something I think one of the things we shockingly realize only when we read the books as adults.

All we see is the result of her learning from it in future books.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I really don't see the problem in not directly addressing her feelings for Lockhart after CoS. I personally feel this is adequately covered in context, especially considering that we see the result of her changing feelings, which seems to abide by the "show, don't tell" thing books often aim for. I forget what book it's in, but Ron teases Hermione and coughs something that sounds like "Lockhart", though I'm not sure Hermione hears, I do feel this is one of a things that address her poor judgement of Lockhart after the fact.

[–]edihauRavenclaw 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I forget what book it's in, but Ron teases Hermione and coughs something that sounds like "Lockhart"

It's in GOF when she feels something for Krum and Ron accuses her of only liking famous people. Missed that detail originally; thanks for checking me--I was wrong to include that as an example.

[–]PsychoGeekGryffindor Ranker 2 points3 points  (3 children)

My feelings for this ranking are saltiness mixed with relief. Relief, because I was genuinely worried she might end up first, saltiness because... wtf? Wasn't the majority opinion on her placement within the 10-15 range last time around? There is no way she should have outranked Snape or Ron or Draco or Sirius, at the very least.

u/a_wisher goes into many reasons why Hermione shouldn't be this high.. much of which I agree with. Another reason for this is that I never felt Hermione had to struggle as much as other characters of her stature. As a consequence, she does not have a truly interesting story. She does not fall apart, hit rock bottom and have to pick herself up. She does not walk out on her friends, does not cause her godfather's death, does not play a pawn in Voldemort's games, does not consider suicide after causing her not-lover's death. She does not have that delicious internal conflict that so attracts me to characters.

That last one is especially a shame, because Hermione's less moral tendencies had great potential for exploration. I could have looked past the good guys going oh well, had Hermione questioned her own decision to curse Marietta. But alas, no moral conflict. All that stuff - the scars, Rita Skeeter, the canaries - which could have been a huge plus to her characterization, instead gives an almost special snowflake like status in the narrative.

Oh, and there's the whole activist arc that's really presented as less of an activist arc and more of an "lol sjw" arc. That story arc really goes nowhere, and the end of things house elves are still greatly offended by her and it never seems that Hermione acknowledges her past mistakes with them. It is very questionable that she has changed at all - even as the conversation with Griphook shows growth in the social justice area, she still has a massive blind spot for house elves. Did you know that we’ve wanted elves to be freed for years?, Hermione tells Griphook proudly, and it is very doubtful she has learned anything at all from her "hide poorly knit clothes in the junk" days.

Hermione is a good character with several layers of characterization (which you brought out brilliantly, great write-up!), but some of these layers are frustratingly underdeveloped and she does not have an accompanying brilliant story. I have her at around 15, roughly the same as Harry. Here I ranked her 9.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I know I push her activist arc more to the "she does learn!" arena while you push it the other way, (which is totally fair, not arguing, I know I see some things in her activist arc that aren't directly there), but I think it's clear she has learned how to handle house-elves at the very least. Harry directly follows her lead on how to handle Kreacher, Harry would never have done it properly without her telling him what to do, and Hermione does it by seeing things from Kreacher's point of view finally. I think anyone who appreciates Kreacher's character arc should also acknowledge the crucial role Hermione plays in it, something she couldn't have done if she was still the misguided person she was with S.P.E.W.

[–]PsychoGeekGryffindor Ranker 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Could you generalize Kreacher's case to all house elves? She certainly manages to see things from Kreacher's PoV in this case, but I don't think she's ever had that trouble when their immediate goals aligned. She's always got along fairly well with Dobby, for instance.

I would be fine going with your view (even if I dislike the lack of acknowledgement of past misdeeds), but what do you make of Hermione's comments on elves to Griphook? She seems to strongly believe in the righteousness of her "free elves" crusade she undertook in the past. She even goes with the pronoun we (ignoring Ron's uncomfortable shuffling at her side) - which is consistent of her overzealousness when dealing with the spew stuff in her fourth and fifth year.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

She's always got along fairly well with Dobby, for instance.

In GoF, she did hold Dobby up in front of the other house-elves as an example of what they should want, and Dobby asked her to stop and seemed very embarrassed. I would not say she understands his point of view at this point, even if Dobby isn't as offended by her as the other house-elves, he still doesn't seem to see totally eye-to-eye with her.

but I don't think she's ever had that trouble when their immediate goals aligned

I don't understand this - are you saying that the desperation of needing something from Kreacher made things click for her in a way they wouldn't have otherwise? This would show that she ultimately learns a lesson from her experience with Kreacher and grows from it in time to talk to Griphook. Or, are you saying she would otherwise have not bothered to help Kreacher (except that their goals aligned) even though she knew how to help him? Neither of these points seem to be the one you're trying to make though, because both of them show that she has grown significantly since S.P.E.W. in understanding the house-elf point of view.

Could you generalize Kreacher's case to all house elves?

Can you insist Kreacher's case is an isolated or accidental event for Hermione? Did she just stumble on the right words to say?

Harry says to Kreacher,

“I don’t understand you, Kreacher,” he said finally. “Voldemort tried to kill you, Regulus died to bring Voldemort down, but you were still happy to betray Sirius to Voldemort?”

But Hermione does understand, she says,

“Harry, Kreacher doesn’t think like that. He’s a slave; house-elves are used to bad, even brutal treatment; what Voldemort did to Kreacher wasn’t that far out of the common way. What do wizard wars mean to an elf like Kreacher? He’s loyal to people who are kind to him, and Mrs. Black must have been, and Regulus certainly was, so he served them willingly and parroted their beliefs”

“[...] Kreacher had been alone for a long time when Sirius came to live here, and he was probably starving for a bit of affection. I’m sure ‘Miss Cissy’ and ‘Miss Bella’ were perfectly lovely to Kreacher when he turned up, so he did them a favor and told them everything they wanted to know. I’ve said all along that wizards would pay for how they treat house-elves. Well, Voldemort did . . . and so did Sirius.”

Harry sits and thinks about what she's said, how it aligns with what Dumbledore had said the night Sirius had died, and he becomes immediately nicer to Kreacher, even though he struggles because Kreacher had just called Hermione a Mudblood.

I also really don't understand what's wrong with what she says to Griphook. I've just re-read that whole scene to try to understand, and it seems fine to me. Should she have gone into the nuances of where she went wrong with Winky? And even if I did get the sense she is overly-righteous (which I don't) I wouldn't blame her because her rant follows Griphook not only claiming that Harry, Ron, and Hermione benefit from Voldemort gaining power because they are wizards, but also that no wizard ever protests for magical creatures rights, something Hermione has devoted years to. Hermione was every bit as righteous as she ought to be, shooting holes in Griphook's ignorance, because Griphook is talking out of his ass about things of which he only has a partial understanding. Hermione doesn't need a history of perfectly-executed activism to back up her righteousness, she just needs a history of protesting, and that she absolutely did.

edit: I also want to add, I don't think she is as analytical of her arc as we are, meaning I don't think she is necessarily aware that she went about it the wrong way back then, I just think she just wouldn't do it that way anymore. Sometimes I don't realize how far I've come until I'm reading an old diary entry or reddit post. If it weren't for having my own words staring back at me, I'd probably forget that I ever saw things differently than I do now.

[–]a_wisherRavenclaw 4 points5 points  (13 children)

takes a deep breath

Oh man, I think I'm going to be hated for the comment I'm going to make. But the spirit of HPR2 is discussion so... To start with, I love this write-up. I truly do. I agree with (almost) all the points made and I think it's a great write-up showing why Hermione shouldn't be in Top 3.

But before we get into that, I have to say that I love Hermione. Back when the series was still in progress, she was my favourite character. As an idealist teenager, she was the role-model that I aspired to be like. And Hermione Granger is a great role model - like BGG said, she showed that when one applies oneself, there's no limit to what we can achieve. I wanted to be like her, even if I was a guy. Because Hermione obliterated the limits imposed on gender or race. I cheered for her and basked in her sheer awesomeness.

Books! And cleverness! There are more important things ...

For me, this quote defines what is Hermione Granger. Many tend to limit her to her intelligence but she's so so so much more than that. There's this scene where she arrives at the Yule Ball with one of the most sought guys, utterly transformed and different. Harry thinks how at that moment, she isn't preoccupied about house elves. Or how without the weight of books, her posture seems so different. For me, this moment shows that beneath that logical and determined persona, Hermione is a girl like everyone, where she wanted to be the prettiest girl in the ball. And it's great thing because it makes her human. There's also the famous 'emotional range of teaspoon' scene where Hermione explains about Cho's dilemma. Or how she advises and helps Ginny. I love this because people tend to equal feminists with these cold 'nagging' emotionless stereotype which is so wrong. Everyone can be a feminist. IMO, what makes Hermione truly extraordinary is her emotional side, her empathy.

Hermione Granger encompasses the traits of all the Hogwarts house: the bravery and daring of Gryffindor, the ambition of Slytherin, the wit and knowledge of Ravenclaw and the unfaltering loyalty and compassion of Hufflepuff.

I agree with this (I actually had the very same thought when I was thinking about Hermione's failing as a character) and this is where her characterisation falters. Having characteristics of all four houses isn't wrong. Harry has Gryffindor's bravery, Slytherin's resourcefulness, Hufflepuff's loyalty and Ravenclaw's wit. But it works for Harry because we see where that these qualities stemmed from - resourcefulness from the abuse of Dursley/Harry-hunting; wit as coping mechanism; loyalty for this new world that accepted him with open hands; bravery from his parents who sacrificed themselves for him... For Hermione, we don't have that. So it comes across as... 'deus-ex-machina' (I'm not sure if it's the word I want)? Skeeter needs a firm hand? Let's make Hermione ruthless. Need an illegal group? Let's make Hermione break rules. Need someone to oppose the HBP book? Let's make Hermione follow the rules. Without a background story to explain such a wide range of opposing traits, Hermione's characterisation becomes confusing.

And I think the issue is the origin of the character in itself - Hermione is, by JKR's own admission, a self-insert. I'm not saying that she's a Mary Sue (she's definitely not) But Hermione's qualities are openly acknowledged and exaggerated but her flaws often go unquestioned. It might be an unconscious move on JKR's part but it is there.

Talking about her 'official' flaws, they are her bossiness/nagging and her stubborness to not stop when it's time too. IMO, these are like the flaws that you tell your prospective employer during an interview - I work too hard, I can be too focused... Yes, she does suffer for this (in PS & PoA). But these flaws help the trio so many times - whether it's the nagging during exams or the drive even when no answers loom on the horizon.

Hermione's true flaws, however, are completely unquestioned or are even lauded. This is where she pales in comparison to Harry & Ron. When Harry brings them to DoM, he gets Sirius killed & everyone doubts him in HBP. When he ignores Ron in DH, he brings the Snatchers to them and gets them kidnapped. When Ron leaves the group in DH, he gets attacked by Snatchers and his two friends had to face Nagini alone. But Hermione? When she kidnaps and imprisons Rita? Instead of being treated a flaw, it becomes a positive trait since it gives them leverage for the Quibbler article. When she scars Marietta? Her friends doesn't seem to be bothered at all and no consequence from the staff. She's the one to form the DA yet it's Harry who faces the fall in Dumbledore's office (it becomes his fault). Whether it's doubting Harry about Malfoy being DE or breaking his wand, it's just a comment (or just a look in the former's case) and nothing more (compared to weeks' of silence for Ron when he returns).

Coming back to my initial comment, this is why Hermione works as a role model. She's this perfect symbol - a great benchmark to aspire to. That's why the idealist me idolised her in my teenage years. And that's why the realist me see that she's 'too perfect to be true'. Because everyone falters and everyone makes mistakes which one would have to face consequences for. So yes, in terms of likeability, Hermione would certainly be in my Top 3 but for literary merit, I'm afraid not.

Would end this (so effing long!) comment by re-iterating that it was a great write-up. Based on my own interpretation and personal experience, I simply disagree with certain points.

[–]BasilFronsacRavenclaw 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Ad the DA and Hermione's flaws.

“Ernie, do you really think I’d leave that list lying around?” said Hermione testily.

...

And to Harry’s horror, she withdrew from her pocket the list of names that had been pinned upon the Room of Requirement’s wall and handed it to Fudge.

Without Hermione the Ministry and Umbridge wouldn't know the name of the DA and its members.

[–]AmEndevomTag 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I was never sure about this one, because Umbridge said:

We needed evidence and the room provided it.

So it may be that the Room of Requirement made the DA list appear out of thin air.

[–]BasilFronsacRavenclaw 3 points4 points  (3 children)

She pinned the piece of paper with all of their names on it on the wall and wrote DUMBLEDORE’S ARMY across the top in large letters.

If she hid it in Gryffindor common room, Umbridge probably wouldn't be able to get it. So I'd say it's Hermione's fault that she didn't hide it better or "encrypt" it.

[–]AmEndevomTag 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I still thinks this scene is a bit unclear. We don't know that she didn't take the piece of paper from, when she was escaping. All we know is that according to Umbridge, the room provided the evidence.

In Deathly Hallows The RoR produced whole bathrooms, so teleporting a piece of paper into the room, because Umbridge asked for some evidence, seems to be a comparatively simple task.

And by the way, I would prefer if Hermione had just left the parchment in the Room, because she was in a hurry. It would have led to one of her actions having bad consequences in a very believable and realistic way. But I'm not sure this is what we are meant to think.

[–]a_wisherRavenclaw 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If the RoR truly teleports items into the room for you, then, it would be very over-powered, IMO. You just have request for the Philosopher's Stone or the Elder Wand or any desired item and it's in your hand. And then, there would be the question of why it didn't teleport food from the kitchen for the DA in DH. I like to think that in a hurry, she left the paper there (it's a very natural reaction given the panic).

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And by the way, I would prefer if Hermione had just left the parchment in the Room, because she was in a hurry. It would have led to one of her actions having bad consequences in a very believable and realistic way. But I'm not sure this is what we are meant to think.

This is actually exactly what I think. The last mention of the parchment is her pinning it to the wall of the room, isn't it?

[–]Maur1neRavenclaw 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I agree with a lot of what you said; I'd just like to add that while Hermione doesn't face direct consequences after scarring Marietta, she is, in a way, confronted with it in HBP during her stay at the Burrow over the summer, when she is hit by the twins' telescope, which leaves her with a black eye that she isn't able to get rid of until they visit Fred and George in their store and they tell her how to remove it. Hermione spends a while worrying she'll look like "half a panda" for the rest of her life. Although the curse on the DA paper didn't cause this incident, I do interpret the latter as a response to the former in a literary sense. It's not much, and there's no indication that Hermione connects this event to Marietta's pimples, let alone feels remorse, but at least one could interpret this to say that the narrative doesn't completely excuse Hermione's actions, even though nobody but Cho openly says that Hermione went too far.

Also, I don't see Hermione as a role model. Her rigid narrow-mindedness and her strict obeying of rules unless she disapproves and takes drastic, questionable actions may not be strongly punished or even pointed out by the narrative, but in my opinion they are flaws nonetheless. A flawless character that works as a perfect role model would be boring, though. If anything, I prefer to regard someone as a role model in regards to certain aspects of their personality or behaviour and have other role models for different character traits.

[–]a_wisherRavenclaw 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Never thought of the black eye as literary justice for the scarring. That said, I do understand (and somewhat agree too). Like you said, even it's the case, it's still an unbalanced situation - Hermione's black eye disappears after a day but Marietta's scarring remains even after months and is visible even with makeup.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A flawless character that works as a perfect role model would be boring, though. If anything, I prefer to regard someone as a role model in regards to certain aspects of their personality or behaviour and have other role models for different character traits.

....So basically Hermione is a role model just like any other flawed character.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (3 children)

So it comes across as... 'deus-ex-machina' (I'm not sure if it's the word I want)? Skeeter needs a firm hand? Let's make Hermione ruthless. Need an illegal group? Let's make Hermione break rules. Need someone to oppose the HBP book? Let's make Hermione follow the rules. Without a background story to explain such a wide range of opposing traits, Hermione's characterisation becomes confusing.

Deus Ex Machina might be the wrong word, but I think I understand what you mean. Without Hermione's backstory, who is she?

I would have loved to have more of the "How Muggle parents react to witches" aspect that her parents could have brought to the series. I mean, think of the amount of humor that could have come out of the Grangers experiencing Diagon Alley! It also would be interesting to get a sense of how her parents felt about Hermione barely seeing them, choosing her new life over them. In these ways, I think knowing her parents could only have been a benefit to the series and would have added an interesting angle to Hermione.

But I disagree that we need to know those things in order to understand why she is ruthless or why she sometimes abides by rules and sometimes doesn't. In fact, I think these aspects of her are the strongest part of her characterization because they are so well done despite not having a character background. She grows right in front of our eyes, and we can see how her experiences shape who she is. Her relationship with authority and books changes throughout the series based on her experiences. Someone once said on this sub that she blindly trusts books, but that's not true at all. She starts out blindly trusting them, but learns in CoS that authors can have an alterior motive (Lockhart's books, an awareness that prepares her for Rita Skeeter and Umbridge's DADA book), she learns in PoA that not all reference material is comprehensive (unregistered animagi, a skill she'll use with Rita), she learns in GoF that books gloss over negative information (no house-elves in Hogwarts, A History, which prepares her for Rita Skeeter's book). Just halfway through the series she is no longer blindly trusting books at all, and this transition is documented in the plot, and her growth then feeds back into the plot, and then the plot feeds back into her characterization. The way the plot and her characterization are so well crafted together is at the core of why I think she is one of the best written characters. And as much as I love Dumbledore, his characterization is so god damned sloppy in the first three books, that I absolutely definitely four thousand gazillion percent love how Hermione's is so well done.

Her rule-breaking follows a similar growth, which I won't bother to get into, because I think /u/bubblegumgills covers it well with,

Hermione respects rules and authority, yes, but they need to respect her back.

Hermione sees the structure and value in rules, and wants a structured world, but the structure is not always fair or moral or to her benefit. In those times she is willing to break the rules. I think this makes sense for her characterization even without knowing about her childhood. I would even say we are witnessing her childhood. Maybe Harry enters the story already "resourceful" and "brave" because of his known earlier hardships, but with Hermione, we are witnessing her experiencing the hardships that develop these qualities in her. I wouldn't automatically call that bad.

But like I said, I actually do think we could have benefitted from knowing more about her childhood, I just don't think one of those benefits would be to clarify an apparently confusing characterization, because I don't think her characterization is confusing.

[–]a_wisherRavenclaw 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I loved the idea of Hermione's growth through her dwindling trust in books. I agree with what you said. But doesn't her reaction in HBP negate that? She reverts back to her earlier stances where she says that printed methods are the ones to follow and not the notes from a stranger, even when the results show otherwise. Her Potions keep being subpar yet she keeps trusting the official instructions in the book.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great example, but I don't think she is reverting back to her old stance at all. If I've appeared to say Hermione distrusts all published books, then I'll clear things up now. Being skeptical of where your information comes from doesn't mean you universally distrust all books forever, it just means you don't automatically trust it just because it's written. She is very very very skeptical of the Half-Blood Prince, so I think she is acting perfectly in line with her characterization.

She is also fueled by jealousy because she works hard to get good grades and Harry isn't working hard at all and getting all the glory, but to be honest, I think despite her jealousy and emotion, it's her logical skepticism that is the major factor in her distrust of the book. Some random unknown person is writing notes in the margin of this book and her friend is blindly trusting it? Not on Hermione's watch! Hermione devotes months of research to discovering who the Half-Blood Prince is while constantly warning Harry how dangerous it is to blindly trust this book.

I wouldn't say she is reverting to her past stance at all, but is using her previously learned skepticism.

edit: clarification

[–]Maur1neRavenclaw 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I partially agree. I'm not sure if Hermione really ever comes to mistrust books. On the other hand, I think in potions lessons in HBP her main motivation to stick the book were different. If she had stopped following the original instructions, she would have indirectly admitted that the HBP was right. She also didn't have many other options. She lacked Snape's brilliant understanding of potions and wouldn't have been able to alter the instructions to get better results. Hence she would have had to ask Harry for the HBP's notes and there was no way she'd admit the HBP was better at options than her after all the times she had openly disapproved of his (in her mind: her) notes (not only on potions but also the spells he'd invented). But you're right, in their first potions lesson in HBP, when Harry tells her and Ron how to achieve better results, her initial reaction is to point out that the book says differently, so it was probably a combination of reluctance to mistrust books, unwillingness to admit that someone was better than her and being suspicious of the HBP.

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Hermione Granger was Ranked #9 by /u/DabuSurvivor in /r/HPRankdown

The Betters ranked her 2 with an average score of 3.45

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Level Gryffindor Hufflepuff Ravenclaw Slytherin Muggle
SPOT ON 4 8 5 4 2
WITHIN 1 8 13 16 4 1
WITHIN 2 10 9 14 9 0
WITHIN 3 2 2 7 1 1
WITHIN 4 1 0 4 2 0

[–]ETIwillsaveusallHufflepuff Ranker 12 points13 points  (1 child)

THE BETTERS RANKED HIM 2 WITH AN AVERAGE SCORE OF 3.45

“Just because it’s taken you three years to notice, Ron, doesn’t mean no one else has spotted I’m a girl!”

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah totally changed it now!

[–]Khajiit-ifyHufflepuff Ranker 1 point2 points  (7 children)

/u/TheDuqOfFRAT I love how you unintentionally called me by my alternate account LMAO.

BGG this was an amazing cut. <3 It's been such a pleasure to work alongside you for the last 9 months.

[–]theduqoffratGryffindor Ranker 2 points3 points  (1 child)

THERES TOO MANY OF YOU

[–]Khajiit-ifyHufflepuff Ranker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lmao. <3 luv ya, duq. Hahahahaha.

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I saw that and didn't want to change it! :P

Thank you <3 I've been a wild ride and I can't imagine a cooler set of people to do this alongside.

[–]oomps62 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Wait, are you Larixon?

[–]Khajiit-ifyHufflepuff Ranker 2 points3 points  (2 children)

This should become a meme with how many people seem to have missed that fact lmao.

[–]oomps62 0 points1 point  (1 child)

:P

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

But oomps, who is /u/poomps62?

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 1 point2 points  (9 children)

To start off extremely pedantically,

When she figures out Rita Skeeter’s secret, Hermione doesn’t just blackmail. She actually kidnaps and imprisons a journalist in a jar for a year

She can't have imprisoned her for a year, unless you mean she is figuratively imprisoned by Hermione's blackmail, because she kidnaps her at the end of the school year (May/June? I'm not sure what month), but the next February is anxiously waiting for a letter from Rita Skeeter. I've actually always assumed she let Rita go after they got off the train or shortly after anyway, and that's when the blackmailing started.

This same thing happens to Umbridge. Hermione respects rules and authority, yes, but they need to respect her back.

Ahhh, such a good line and describes Hermione very well!

but I do think she wanted to frighten her (and things got out of hand when she underestimated Umbridge’s racist tendencies)

I don't personally feel she underestimated Umbridge's racist tendancies, I think she didn't realize how reactionary and violent the centaurs would be. I think she thought a witch with a wand could probably handle herself, and they'd battle it out, but everyone would ultimately be alive and all that, and meanwhile Harry and Hermione could run away because they are "just kids". Meaning what she really did was underestimate her own racist tendancies because that was really low of her to use the centaurs that way.

She embodies feminist traits of wanting a better life for everyone, not just the privileged few.

I love this so much! And especially because while she fights for others, she isn't perfect, and doesn't do things very well at first, but she grows in this, and I think that's great. Though, as others have pointed out, her activism arc could have been more front and center and kind of wasn't addressed at all a the end of the series.

Galadriel’s speech in The Fellowship of the Ring

Oh my god, you just reminded me that Galadriel is my favorite character in LOTR, not Sam! Or maybe they're tied. Movie Galadriel is great and god knows I want to grow up to be Cate Blanchett, but Book Galadriel just blew me away. God, what a fantastic character. I need to re-read her scenes, because I already kind of forget why I love her so much.


Well, /u/Moostronus, it looks like #1 and #2 are our favorites.

[–]MoostronusRanker 1.0, Analysis 2.0 3 points4 points  (8 children)

Seeing Lupin in the top two is making me way happier than I ever should be in a concentration camp.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Happiness can be found even in the darkest of places.

(to be perfectly honest, though, I don't know how true that is. I'm glad that's a movie quote, and not a book quote, I can't really see book Dumbledore saying that, or at least phrasing it that way. It's like..... it's a nice quote and I'm glad people like it (and I like it too) - okay this is turning rambly, but whatever, the rankdown is almost over and I'm running out of opportunities to ramble in front of an audience that actually might read it, but the quote is a bit too...... everything-is-going-to-be-alright type of comforting, and that's not really Dumbledore's style. But I am really really really really really happy that people find comfort in these words - like this girl who's family was murdered and she used this quote. It is amazing that she uses this quote to uncover whatever comfort and happiness she can.

And I guess it's a little bit better than "everything's going to be alright", because at least movie Dumbledore is saying the strength comes from within, which is something Dumbledore would emphasis...

I don't know, it's one of those lines that in some scenarios feels like it's saying "Just be happy!" and in other scenarios helps people have perspective and gives them the strength to get through serious hardships... I guess no quote works for every situation... Maybe my biggest gripe with it isn't that it's a bad quote, but that I feel really shitting using it for a concentration camp - the darkest place of all...)

[–]MoostronusRanker 1.0, Analysis 2.0 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Honestly, we're taking that attitude. We're sitting around and drinking and swapping stories and playing violin. The antidote to hate is love.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Cheers to that!!

(although I was thinking more about how the people who suffered in the camps might feel about this line, and not those visiting it afterward, but either way, I think I'm going to shut up about this line and let people find happiness any way they can - so long as it doesn't hurt anybody else obviously)

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

I NEED YOUR OPINION ON THIS CUT MOOS

[–]MoostronusRanker 1.0, Analysis 2.0 1 point2 points  (2 children)

IN DUE TIME PROBABLY TONIGHT I JUST GOT OFF A TRAIN FROM BUDAPEST TO BERLIN

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

NOT GOOD ENOUGH MOOS. I NEED YOUR VALIDATION OPINION DAMMIT.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Moving from planes to trains I see.

[–]PsychoGeekGryffindor Ranker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

IT'S COMPLETE SHIT

WOULD HAVE BEEN GREAT HAD IT BEEN AT LIKE THIRTEEN

[–]MoostronusRanker 1.0, Analysis 2.0 1 point2 points  (2 children)

BGG, the time has finally come for me to say nice things about you. Slytherin was absolute murder to choose, because there were so many brilliant, talented people. Your application really stuck out, though, because of your commitment to intertextuality when analyzing Harry Potter, a concept which I fucking love on a scholarly level. We hadn't seen it before in Rankdown, and I'm so thrilled that you brought it here. You brought a clarity and depth of thinking that Rankdown 2.0 so desperately needed at times. Thank you for your service, and now your watch is ended.

[–]bubblegumgillsSlytherin Ranker[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm so excited for our drinks now!

[–]MoostronusRanker 1.0, Analysis 2.0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

:D

[–]jel99 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Number of Times Betters' Guesses Were Spot On:

6+ out of 8: 0 people

5 out of 8: 2 people - PsychoGeek, shaantya

4 out of 8: 2 people - doormouse1, Hattless

3 out of 8: 11 people - AmEndeVomTag, jel99, minesweepers, Nerusan, ObeseOwl, PikaV2002, Redbookbluebook, Silvestress, Theotech, Undividable410, wantsome_moore

2 out of 8: 34 people - -MrJ-, a_wisher, aegongreyjoy, AnOrangeCactus, AweBeyCon, Baronvonrothenstein, BasilFronsac, beep5, BEETLEJUICEME, bowtiesrcool86 , bubbasaurus, Dead-thing, Digidark123321, domusdecus, ellie102, HeartChakra22, Hplove21, Hufflepuff_, infinityxero, jarris123, jeanclawheron, jlim201, MacabreGoblin, mindputtee, Oskar31415, rhinorhinoo, Seanmik620, sparksbet, starflashfairy, Suitelifeofem, themixedqueenb, Throwawayjust_incase, Wazzup44, Williukea

1 out of 8: 51 people - MrSnowflake2, 10forever, Accio-username, alexi_lupin, Aralia_, Arctiva , Ayaa96, beyondtheveil13, bisonburgers, Celest3alove, Childish__Gambino, Deidana, eclectique, emsmale, eyl327, f4nnypacks, Feminist_Cat, gorillabut, HeatherLeMouse, HermioneReynaChase, Husblah, ibigandscary, Kakumei_keahi, kirri18, kitkatlibrarian, Kiwias, lizzyrizzy, Maur1ne, MirandaTheSavage, mumbling_marauder, nosucces, pezes, pinguemcecidero, Ravenclawintj, RavenoftheSands, Rozejade, Ryan814, ryette, ShirtlessKirk46, SirHealer, snowjewel, spludgiexx, svipy, swooping_evil, TheJoshwa, thereefa, thtdharris1, Thunderkron, timland33, Whitebri, Zaplyn 0 out of 8: 33 people - anuragkadiyala, asdf-user, asilentletter, Atibabykt , cardsfan90909, Chefjones, DarcRose22, dawnphoenix, Dina-M, edihau, El_Quetzal, Feverel, HashcoinShitstorm, HermioneChaseKenobi, IIEarlGreyII, justonekindoffolks, KackelDackel, LoseHerSong, Mika6523, milcom_, MockingbirdRambler, NiteMary, Omg_Neil, ptrst, Queenstaysqueen, Quote_the_Ravenclaw, Rockwithsunglasses, Seekaterun, Superboy1777, teddiekeet, Telsion, TKtheOne, xeferial

Top Betters

Rank User House Doe Pts
#1 PsychoGeek Muggle 72
#2 jeanclawheron Ravenclaw 62
#2 jel99 Ravenclaw 62
#2 Maur1ne Ravenclaw 62
#2 rhinorhinoo Ravenclaw 62
#6 bisonburgers Gryffindor 60
#6 Seanmik620 Muggle 60
#6 spludgiexx Ravenclaw 60
#6 wantsome_moore Hufflepuff 60

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Are the top better results just counting the votes for top ten?

[–]jel99 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The points are just based on how close the bets were to the actual rank (from rank #10 until this one). The scoring is 10 pts for spot on, 8 for 1 off, 6 for 2 off, 4 for 3 off, and 2 for 4 off.

[–]bisonburgersGryffindor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh, got it! Thanks!

[–]RavenclawINTJMolly was robbed 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hermione was my favorite character for years until Molly took her place. She still falls in the 2-4 range for me. I'm shocked and excited that she made it this high since she always seems to have a lot of haters in this part of the fanbase.

Edit: Given the characters in the endgame, I would have Hermione at number 1. She is the only character in my current top 5 to make endgame.

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