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[–]Duder211iPhone X 256GB 70 points71 points  (12 children)

That's a little unsettling

[–]Sphincterzilla 21 points22 points  (9 children)

Apple mentioned in the keynote that close relatives will be more likely to be able to trick FaceID. It looks like he trained it with the glasses so FaceID recognises the glasses as a facial feature therefore making it more likely the brother will be able to unlock it.

[–]ikjadoon 65 points66 points  (6 children)

Shouldn't matter. Glasses shouldn't be a key part of the authentication--at all. What if the primary user isn't wearing his/her glasses? Is Face ID supposed to reject them, too?

Man. Windows Hello's infrared is 1 out of 100,000 false positives and twins couldn't be falsely authenticated even with 5 different pairs of twins. It means it's not the technology per se, but just the current iteration.

We did need Touch ID 2nd gen to get a really solid experience; maybe the same for Face ID 2nd gen next year.

[–]misterfeynman 17 points18 points  (1 child)

As far as I know the Windows Hello system also looks at your face’s vasculature. Which should be is sufficiently unique even for twins.

[–]uniqueguy263iPhone 7 Plus 32GB 16 points17 points  (0 children)

So should face id

[–]psilty 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Windows hello takes a couple seconds to work and has a higher false negative rate with glasses, etc.

Obviously the use case is different for something where you’re authenticating a few times a day while likely sitting down in a stable environment vs someone unlocking a phone dozens of times a day possibly outside, while walking around, etc. It’s a trade off between usability and absolute security.

[–]harrro 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Also Windows Hello has a ton more processing power available since it's on a full desktop/powerful laptop.

[–]HammyHavoc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

False. It was available on W10M with Snapdragon processors that paled compared to what's in an iPhone. It hardly uses any resources, even on a desktop with plenty available to it.

[–]mistaroundmountains 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They are factoring in glasses as part of matching algo...

[–]mohanishs[S] 51 points52 points  (24 children)

Hi,

We wanted to give an update on this, since we have had some time to play around with the phone a bit. And this is whats happening. I did not realize what exact steps we had followed until it happened again today. We have been resetting face id and doing it all over again. And this is what the steps are that makes it happen almost 50% of the time. Not sure if its intended or is a bug. 1. My brother(left) setup the face id. 2. Unlocks with his face. Does not with mine. 3. I entered the pin with the phone facing me. It it unlocked as expected. 4. Now I locked it again. 5. I raised it up to my face, and it unlocks. 6. It unlocks each time after that with my face

Again, it does not happen always. We have seen it happen around 50% of the time. Not sure if this is an intended ML behavior. Its an edge case where you need to know the ID and have similar features too. Maybe its a bug.

We feel a little better about the security, but still a few cracks to iron out.

[–]andreas16700iPhone5S 16 points17 points  (6 children)

  1. Unlocks with his face. Does not with mine. 3. I entered the pin with the phone facing me. It it unlocked as expected. 4. Now I locked it again. 5. I raised it up to my face, and it unlocks.

Seriously? That's pretty much how it learns appearance changes. You didn't think that was relevant information? That's literally expected behaviour. The headline is already making news. Great, more Face ID FUD.

[–]mohanishs[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yup and thats what the video says. We did not realize that when we made the first video. When I entered the passcode, it did not work right away..and started doing that after a few tries. So it was hard to point out the exact case. Hence the second video.

[–]a_reptile 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Hey do you know what doesn't look alike? Their fingerprints.

Look I don't know much about the faceid technology or how it stores your face data, but the fact of the matter is that there's a problem here.

Maybe it's expected behaviour and maybe that's how the tech works. But at the end of the day, two people are able to unlock the same iPhone, which is not okay.

So since the new iPhone can be unlocked by identical twins and tricked by siblings who look alike,(and maybe even dopplegängers. We'll have to wait and see) don't you think that apple is pulling numbers out of its ass when it comes to faceid and has essentially handed us a beta product?

[–]andreas16700iPhone5S 7 points8 points  (3 children)

but the fact of the matter is that there's a problem here.

Uhh not really? Why would anyone but the owner know the passcode?

But at the end of the day, two people are able to unlock the same iPhone, which is not okay.

Again, you need to know the passcode first

Look I don't know much about the faceid technology or how it stores your face data

sounds about right

[–]a_reptile 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Uhh not really? Why would anyone but the owner know the passcode?

All the kids I know know their parents' passcodes. All of my friends know their SO's passcodes. It's something that happens when you're in a relationship based on trust

Again, you need to know the passcode first

Doesn't matter. What matters is that someone else is able to get into the phone with faceid, whereas one wouldn't be able to with touchid

sounds about right

Context.

[–]dpkonofa 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Doesn't matter. What matters is that someone else is able to get into the phone with faceid, whereas one wouldn't be able to with touchid

That's completely not true. If someone knows your passcode, they can absolutely get into your phone with TouchID. That's the whole problem here. They've given their passcode to another person immediately after the initial training (which is exactly what the issue is here... FaceID is still learning the person's face). Had the person used it for an hour or 2 and then handed it to the other person, this wouldn't even be part of the discussion.

[–]lazygamer26 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What is more relevant is whether on changing the pin, it still authenticates the brother. Because once u know the pin, either person is always going to be in with pin. Face id is just redundant at that point of time

[–]oscarmendonca 17 points18 points  (6 children)

This should really be a pinned comment (if is possible in reddit). Like MrOverSt wrote, if you know your pin, and insert it, what did you expect? FaceID learns with time, if it fails but someone very similar to the previous data enters the pin, it will assume is the same person.

[–]jonlucciPhone 7 128GB 5 points6 points  (5 children)

This means that I can no longer use the pin to give access to people though. With TouchID, I can give the pin away when I want someone to access my phone without training it to always let that person in.

[–]harrro 5 points6 points  (3 children)

If you trust someone with your pin, then you're actually giving them more access than touchID/FaceID.

This is why your phone forces you to enter the PIN after a restart or if you haven't used the App store in a while and try to make a purchase.

[–]yummy_stuff 4 points5 points  (2 children)

You can easily change you pin, you can't change your face

[–]harrro 1 point2 points  (0 children)

you can't change your face

Prosthetics? Plastic surgery?

[–]narrowtuxiPhone6 64GB Space Grey 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You can delete what it learned and start from scratch

[–]oscarmendonca 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If is a similar person, and they try to unlock with their face, yes. Although I imagine once you unlock with your face again, the other person’s face wouldn’t be a match.

Also the longer you use this, the better the phone will know you.

[–]MrOverSt 7 points8 points  (7 children)

Its pretty obvious what happening here. Why would anyone other than the person that registered their face with Face ID know the password?

If it works like the Kinect works. Its actually recording face data when the password is entered manually. Since you guys look alike. The phone thinks its a missed scan and corrects it self with the data that was just recorded.

Also take your glasses off when you register Face ID.

[–]mohanishs[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I was trying to look for it. But not sure if I can pin it. Reddit doesnt allow that

[–]MrOverSt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It actually makes perfectly good sense why pure getting it to fail. It operating as intended. One word of advice.

Do you initial setup without your glasses. And remember that the passcode overrides Face ID data. As far as why. It’s self explanatory.

[–]gablopico 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think MrOverSt explained very well. You might wanna edit your post for clarification. Btw, this is going viral. I came here from the article on quartz!

[–]ratedsar 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Why would anyone other than the person that registered their face with Face ID know the password?

A lot of significant others and family members know eachother's passwords and pins.

[–]MrOverSt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok, then people shouldn't get mad when the security of their iPhone is compromised because they gave their password out. Logic.

[–]digitalpizza 0 points1 point  (1 child)

So people should take their glasses off to unlock their phone?

[–]MrOverSt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why are you asking stupid questions?

[–]mohanishs[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We have a new video showing the steps to reproduce the issue.

https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/7atwap/update_iphonex_face_id_fail/

[–]england-is-my-gender 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This seems like its adapting to what it thinks is changes in your face. Since the two of you look very similar, when the second brother opens it with the passcode, that makes the phone adapt more to him, since it now thinks he is the owner. I think it seems to be working as intended, just adapting to the new facial look, although I would assume it wouldn't happen if the person looks nothing like you

[–]SshaawnniPhone X 64GB 37 points38 points  (1 child)

That’s it, I’m calling my brother. More to come..

[–]agumonkey 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If the iPhone fails to fail with a brother, would it challenge it reveals his adoption ?

ps: Can't wait for families to scan their siblings to see if they're true apple-familiness score.

[–]spazma7ik 60 points61 points  (12 children)

Question - did you setup FaceID with your glasses on? Not that it should matter.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 96 points97 points  (4 children)

It shouldn’t matter at all according to Apple. This is a big fail

[–]eydendibiPhone 7 Plus 128GB 1 point2 points  (3 children)

It's like saying "Touch ID doesn't work for people with sweaty hands and some other cases so it's a huge failure!"

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Comparison doesn’t make sense. Besides sweaty hands and gloves making Touch ID almost inaccessible, has there been a case of bypassing Touch ID’s security?

[–]eydendibiPhone 7 Plus 128GB 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm making a point of it being a failure. If 70% of the total population of iPhone X owners actually face this kind of problem, talks of failure should then be discussed. And this is what? The third? fourth? Fifth? Against millions? I don't think that considers as a failure yet. For the specific cases, yes, but for the general population, no.

Read the update OP has made about the situation. They didn't even give Face ID a chance to learn the owner's face because they would keep resetting Face ID for every failure.

[–]jasonlotito 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If Apple says it will work with something, and it doesn't, would you call it a success or failure?

[–]mohanishs[S] 33 points34 points  (6 children)

Yes my brother did. Actually when my brother set it up. He was wearing a different set of glasses. Not very similar to the ones we have on in the video.

[–]agracadabara 27 points28 points  (3 children)

Since removing the glasses made it unable to unlock with your face.

Set it up without glasses and see if it still can't distinguish you vs your brother.

The false match probability drops for twins and siblings. The glasses during setup probably drop it further since the frame reduces the number or match points.

"The probability of a false match is different for twins and siblings that look like you "

https://images.apple.com/business/docs/FaceID_Security_Guide.pdf

[–]iamagoatm8 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Removing the glasses and setting it up should work, but then you will have to remove your glasses everytime you want to unlock your device!

[–]agracadabara 16 points17 points  (0 children)

No you won’t have to. You set it up without anything so it gets a accurate map of your actual face. Then it uses that to find a match with occlusions.

Since the original data has more match points the software can extrapolate better.

[–]HandsomeAssNiggaiPhone 7 Plus 128GB 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not true. I don’t wear glasses and set up FaceID at home when I got my phone.

Phone still unlocked with my shades on and safety glasses on at work.

[–]fanisp 41 points42 points  (0 children)

Ouch that hurts !

[–]ChemPetE 135 points136 points  (14 children)

Probably unlocking with both of you trains it to accept either or more often as well. Probably resetting it to a single person and keeping it with that one person for a while would tighten up the security.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 34 points35 points  (10 children)

Probably unlocking with both of you trains it to accepr either or more often as well

How was the 2nd face able to unlock it in the first place since Apple claimed ‘Face ID is a face at a time?’

[–]icandrive155 36 points37 points  (1 child)

With a 1 in 1,000,000 failure rate /s

[–]agracadabara 16 points17 points  (3 children)

Can you post a video of your setup process and replicate the failure? Also set it up without glasses and see if you can still cause it to fail.

The acetate frame glasses seem to be reducing the number of points on your face it uses to compute a match. Since your bother couldn't unlock it without glasses on.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Don’t need to as it’s already been done by marshable and OP. Not everyone has the device or a sibling to ‘replicate the failure’.

[–]agracadabara 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Sorry the way your phone tag shows up I thought you were the OP.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No worries

[–]dpkonofa 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Because the 2nd face unlocked it, during the training period, with the passcode. They literally trained the phone to open using the 2nd person's face and then were surprised when it did exactly that. This whole thing is such nonsense.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 1 point2 points  (1 child)

There’s no point trying to defend Face ID’s flaws as this ‘training period’ makes little sense to me.

Moved from android to iOS and people told me that it’s possible to train Touch ID by going to settings and placing your fingerprints to enhance it.

Tbh, it’s made little to no difference on improving the accuracy of Touch ID on my 7.

[–]threeseed 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The training period is a critical part of the process if you understood how FaceID works i.e. recurrent neural networks.

FaceID needs to be adjust to handle changes in your face and the passcode is the key that determines whether the change is accepted or not.

[–]Renovatius 24 points25 points  (0 children)

This needs to be higher up. A very probable reason. Especially in the first few days of training.

[–]sirbonce 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Were there reports of Touch ID being tricked this easily without going so far as copying the person's fingerprint?

[–]Jabingla 33 points34 points  (20 children)

As Apple said in the keynote, the chance that a random person can open your phone is 1,000,000 to 1, but for family members, particularly close ones, it’s less.

They even recommended that twins just use a passcode.

It’s unfortunate for those with similar looking relatives, but not totally unexpected.

[–]stiff_lip 38 points39 points  (1 child)

Yes, one in a million with stipulations. Interestinly enough it's easier to find someone looking like you than matching your fingerprints.

[–]Jabingla 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yeah that’s totally true, good point!

[–]icandrive155 35 points36 points  (16 children)

Well then FaceId is pure shit isn't it?

[–]PeacefulSkeptic 4 points5 points  (6 children)

I think you may be overreacting slightly.

[–]icandrive155 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Security feature is easily defeated. Yeah, hopefully not keeping national security secrets on your iPhone but if it can be beaten this easily it's pretty much shit. They need to figure out how to get Touch ID to work again.

[–]PeacefulSkeptic 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Easily defeated

Yes potentially by a twin or a close looking sibling. Which Apple has already mentioned and documented.

Yeah, hopefully not keeping national security secrets on your iPhone

Yeah you’re just trying to be outrageous. Let’s be real, is this something Apple should tighten up? Absolutely. Is this actually going to affect real people in any substantial way? Probably not.

[–]icandrive155 5 points6 points  (3 children)

"Which Apple has already mentioned and documented."

What the hell difference does this make? Disclosing a weakness does not in any way insulate Apple from responsibility for the failure. Confessing doesn't give them a free pass for screwing the pooch. They've gone all in on face id and it's been proven to be defeated by someone who just looks like the actual owner. This is a glaring security flaw. They have to do much better than this.

[–]PeacefulSkeptic 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Siblings or twins. This isn’t as big a deal as you want it to be. And I think deep down you know this isn’t as big a deal as you’re making it out to be. I’m running through scenarios in my head where I try to find a practical way this would be used against me, I can’t think of one.

[–]icandrive155 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Right. So only the few of us with siblings need to worry about this one.

[–]dpkonofa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Only the few of you with siblings that you give the passcode to and then train to use your face as your own... You are making a big deal out of nothing here.

[–]tetroxid 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yes, basically

[–]loggedn2say 4 points5 points  (4 children)

for the overwhelming majority, no. but facial recognition tech is going to have a difficult time with identical twins and very close relatives.

but that's the tech and apple iteration is apparently the best version yet. if someone has an evil twin though, i wouldn't get this phone or use the passcode only.

[–]ikjadoon 10 points11 points  (3 children)

but that's the tech and apple iteration is apparently the best version yet

Doubtful. Granted, Microsoft has a lot more experience with infrared cameras (a la Kinect), but not even five pairs of twins could get Windows Hello to fuck up.

We need a Face ID gen2.

[–]loggedn2say 2 points3 points  (2 children)

having used microsoft version back then it likely can be as specific as microsoft's, but like microsoft's version will require more exact head position and have higher rate of failure.

see also: non-pr setups https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY8gGlkyOgY

[–]ikjadoon 6 points7 points  (1 child)

but like microsoft's version will require more exact head position

Nah, Microsoft's position is up to 15 degrees. How recently have you used it?...

and have higher rate of failure.

Ostensibly.

see also: non-pr setups https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY8gGlkyOgY

It was done by a newspaper and they tested five pairs of twins, not one. Do you know what The Australian is?

[–]loggedn2say 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nah, Microsoft's position is up to 15 degrees.

that's less than faceid...

and they tested five pairs of twins, not one.

well, the video of OP is only one failure too. it also failed in your link

In the case of Isabelle and Natalie Brown, 11, Windows Hello was unable to log in either. That was the only instance where the system failed.

and was slow like i said

In the end, there were some cases of Windows Hello taking its time to identify a twin

It was done by a newspaper

which is probably pitched and assisted by microsoft. that's pretty common for hardware featurettes but is hard to confirm.

[–]Jabingla 4 points5 points  (2 children)

If you have an identical twin or spouse that looks very similar. Then yeah.

[–]nupogodiiPhone X 256GB 53 points54 points  (1 child)

Spouse? Calm down, Lannister ...

[–]Jabingla 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Ha shit! I’m not even going to edit my comment, don’t want to ruin your joke 🙂

[–]loggedn2say 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yup for those worried in that situation better keep it on passcode only or not get a facial unlock phone.

[–]agracadabara 28 points29 points  (22 children)

"The probability that a random person the population could look at your iPhone X and unlock it using Face ID is approximately 1 in 1,000,000 (versus 1 in 50,000 for Touch ID). For additional protection, Face ID allows only five unsuccessful match attempts before a passcode is required to obtain access to your iPhone. The probability of a false match is different for twins and siblings that look like you as well as among children under the age of 13, because their distinct facial features may not have fully developed. If you're concerned about this, we recommend using a passcode to authenticate."

https://images.apple.com/business/docs/FaceID_Security_Guide.pdf

[–]BPOPRiPhone 2G 4GB 15 points16 points  (18 children)

Please Do Not Interrupt the Circle Jerk

[–]ikjadoon 14 points15 points  (15 children)

Eh, not so much. Apple's marketing is...doing marketing. We're calling attention to the missing information in that paragraph. They only compared Face ID vs Touch ID when it was favourable for Face ID.

In other words: your siblings don't have the same fingerprints, at all. A better reading would've been,

The probability that a random person the population could look at your iPhone X and unlock it using Face ID is approximately 1 in 1,000,000 (versus 1 in 50,000 for Touch ID).

The probability that your sibling could look at your iPhone X and unlock it using Face ID is approximately 1 in 5,000 (versus 1 in 50,000 for Touch ID).

Whatever the number is, but even twins have different fingerprints, so your siblings' prints are sure the fuck super different.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 4 points5 points  (11 children)

These people just argue to suit their own narrative. If for instance my sister can unlock my device while I’m asleep using Face ID, it’s really concerning. Whereas the possibility of her unlocking my device with Touch ID is very low.

The X is a great device for someone new to iOS or upgrading from a 5s and below but Face ID still needs time to get better just like Touch ID first gen. if people keep making excuses for this failure due to bias then it might not get better.

[–]dpkonofa 0 points1 point  (7 children)

If for instance my sister can unlock my device while I’m asleep using Face ID, it’s really concerning. Whereas the possibility of her unlocking my device with Touch ID is very low.

This wouldn't really be possible with your sister unless, like in the OP's video, you erased the FaceID data between every attempt and used her face with a PIN to unlock it at some point in the past. The entire crux of the issue is that FaceID gets more secure the more it authenticates against the "correct" face. If you immediately train it with an "incorrect" face, then the margin of error will be greater. All it would take is an hour or two of use by the "correct" face to fix the issue in question.

As for the second part, it's curious that you're more concerned about a sibling unlocking the phone and bring up the chances of TouchID unlocking for the sibling yet don't mention at all that the chances of a random stranger opening up a TouchID enabled phone is far greater. It's still "good enough" but for 99% of people using this, FaceID is far more secure than TouchID.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 1 point2 points  (6 children)

In the practical sense, Touch ID is more secure than Face ID since facial features are more similar than fingerprints.

[–]dpkonofa 0 points1 point  (5 children)

That is absolutely not true. TouchID has a 1:50,000 rate of error with a random stranger. FaceID has a 1:1,000,000 rate of false positive with a stranger. The issue in the video is that they trained it using both of their facial data. Facial features, especially when dot-scanned and using IR (which responds to things like blood flow in the face), are not more similar than fingerprints.

[–]PM_ME_YO_GAMS_GIRL 0 points1 point  (4 children)

TouchID has a 1:50,000 rate of error with a random stranger. FaceID has a 1:1,000,000 rate of false positive with a stranger.

Well we're not talking about two random strangers. We're talking about two relatives who are more likely to look the same. Of course apple doesn't tell us the rate of false positives with relatives, but I'm sure it's pretty high which in the end makes touch ID more secure since two relatives aren't going to share the same or similar finger prints.

[–]dpkonofa 0 points1 point  (3 children)

No, we're talking about the security of Face ID vs. Touch ID. You said that Touch ID is more secure than Face ID and that's just not factually true. As long as Face ID is set up properly, as instructed, and it has a correct model of the person built, it will always be more secure than Touch ID. Twins are the exception and even people can't always tell the difference apart. Relatives are not an issue unless the system is not trained properly and the relative has access to the PIN/passcode.

[–]PM_ME_YO_GAMS_GIRL 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Twins are the exception and even people can't always tell the difference apart. Relatives are not an issue unless the system is not trained properly and the relative has access to the PIN/passcode.

And because of this, Face ID is less secure. End of story. If Face ID grants twins and some family members access, then it is less secure than a fingerprint since even identical twins have different fingerprints. That 1 in a million number is for two random strangers, but the rate of false positives is probably much higher than Touch ID because of the fact that family members are more likely to have access to your phone.

I've seen a few videos already of people fooling Face ID. Haven't seen the same with Touch ID. How does that make Face ID MORE secure when the whole point of it is to stop other people from accessing your device?

[–]loggedn2say 0 points1 point  (2 children)

If for instance my sister can unlock my device while I’m asleep using Face ID

not possible unless you sleep with your eyes open (some people do), in which case i'd say you're vulnerable with touchid too.

it's not better than touchid in every situation but that doesnt make it bad if you know it's limitations and make an informed decision when you buy it. for those concerned i think it's fine to stay away.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Was talking about her picking up my device while I’m asleep while she uses her face to unlock it due to similar features. You completely missed my point.

[–]loggedn2say 1 point2 points  (0 children)

if you think you are the 1 in 5000 that look close enough to your sister, then you should be scared i guess...i'd bet cash money you/she cant though. "similar features" isn't the same as what happened in the video here

[–]loggedn2say 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Whatever the number is, but even twins have different fingerprints, so your siblings' prints are sure the fuck super different.

i think this is the definition of making a mountain out of a molehill.

if you carry sensitive info and feel you are susceptible by a relative or doppelganger it seems like you should stay far away from this phone and/or be ok with using passcode.

otherwise it's compromises over touchid are likely fine for people that want the phone.

[–]rich-evans 4 points5 points  (1 child)

think this is the definition of making a mountain out of a molehill.

Apple sells a $1000 product that features an authentication method that they claim is many many times safer than its predecessor, without mentioning that it's basically useless if you have a same-sex sibling. If people complaining about that are making a mountain out of a molehill, I'd like to see what you consider a serious issue.

[–]loggedn2say 1 point2 points  (0 children)

they claim is many many times safer than its predecessor

they did... where?

without mentioning that it's basically useless if you have a same-sex sibling.

yeah...one unverified video isnt proof of that. it works by measuring the distance between features and those features. if the scale is close it will fail. they arent hiding it.

If people complaining about that are making a mountain out of a molehill, I'd like to see what you consider a serious issue.

they flat out tell you it can fail. guess what, it will fail under the right circumstances. i do not consider that a huge issue, because touchid wasn't 100% secure either. guess what if someone with enough resources wants in your phone, touch, face, passcode will not matter. if you dont trust your siblings and they are the few 1 in 5000 that will fail the security don't get this phone. if that is a big problem for you, you are playing life on extremely hard.

Apple sells a $1000

and the majority of people who can pay that, probably don't have an evil sibling who has access to their phone.

[–]Benmjt 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is a $1000 phone

[–]LlindediPhone 8 Plus 64GB 5 points6 points  (1 child)

The probability of a false match is different for twins and siblings that look like you as well as among children under the age of 13, because their distinct facial features may not have fully developed. If you're concerned about this, we recommend using a passcode to authenticate.

So, it's safe when someone is not looking like you, meanwhile everybody including children have different fingerprints.

[–]agracadabara 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In this case I think the setup was done with glasses. I would like to see them repeat this with doing the setup without the glasses which occlude facial features and increase the false match probability.

[–]one_pump_trump 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Apple did say 1 in a million... but there are billions of people on the earth. Technically they aren't lying. Fingerprints are 1 in 50000, but relatives don't necessarily share similar fingerprints, but relatives do have similar facial features.

Lets call it FaceGate.

[–]xTheCriticx 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Let’s be honest with the community. These gentlemen look a lot a like. They’re like Mario and Luigi in their similarities. You could fool me that they’re not twins let alone a phone.

[–]jviiPhone6s 64GB Gold 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yea, pretty much same nose, chin, ears, lips. Face shape and maybe eyebrow structure is a bit different, but eyes look pretty similar too.

[–]Erwaso 10 points11 points  (5 children)

Bring back touch id!

[–]InspireAndAdmire[🍰] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Or just get the 8?

[–]Erwaso 19 points20 points  (2 children)

I did. I got a Note 8 lol

[–]InspireAndAdmire[🍰] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I meant iPhone 8 lol

[–]Erwaso 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Haha I know

[–]jkslate 2 points3 points  (0 children)

yeah, get the inferior phone to get the superior tech, thats the answer!

[–]Crrack 25 points26 points  (4 children)

Failing aside, watching how specific you need to be with the movement of lifting the phone in front of your face to unlock is confirming my main issue I had with the whole FaceID idea.

[–]nupogodiiPhone X 256GB 22 points23 points  (0 children)

They are exaggerating for the video to make it clear when they are attempting to unlock the phone

Realistically you only need to kinda look at the thing. It's quite seamless and doesn't require you to exaggeratedly glare at the phone

I pick it up and swipe up and I might see the FaceID screen for 1/10th of a second or so before it unlocks

[–]My_Normal_Account 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Not at all. He’s just new to the phone. You simply swipe up to go into the phone and it will take you right in if it’s any where near pointed at your face with eyes forward. That lock button doesn’t reflect it failing or working always. It’s a small software thing - but it always pops right in immediately. I’m honestly blown away at how fast it is. I am concerned about some of the duping failures and I wonder if it’s simply tuning the algorithm to tighten it up. 30,000 IR dots should be enough to differentiate between siblings if tuned and taught correctly.

[–]Crrack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean that's good in theory. But you can see him look at it and then alter it's position to be more in front of him so it will unlock.

[–]dpkonofa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

if tuned and taught correctly

This is the entire problem here. They're using both faces, with a PIN, to get into the phone prior to what they've shown in the video. They've basically provided bogus training data so that enough of their combined features will trigger for both individuals. If one of them had set the FaceID feature up and then used it for 24 hours, this video wouldn't work.

BREAKING NEWS: Brothers who set up FaceID with the intent to cause it to fail cause it to fail. Story at 11!

[–]NoHonorHokaido 5 points6 points  (0 children)

iPhone is clearly white and all asians look the same to him.

[–]kereth 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Give me back my TouchID

[–]x3n0n1ciPhone X 64GB 2 points3 points  (1 child)

To be at least a bit fair they do look pretty similar. Put the dude on the rights hair on the guy in te left and it helps highlight this..

https://i.imgur.com/dvTHpRb.jpg

[–]Aquuleus 9 points10 points  (2 children)

Do you suppose Mashable, BGR & their ilk are going to run articles now about how "trivially" easy it is to bypass Face ID? Just throw on a pair of specs and get right in.

In all seriousness though, that should be concerning. The phone has been live for only days now and already Mashable has tricked it using twins and now just being siblings can work.

[–]Sphincterzilla 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Apple mentioned during the event that it works with twins and close relatives are more likely to fool it. They obviously have a very similar bone structure in their face. I think the guy trained FaceID with his glasses on and now the glasses are seen as a facial feature which would explain why it didn’t work when his glasses were off.

[–]icandrive155 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They call that the Clark Kent feature, and it's magical.

[–]brndnprks 7 points8 points  (0 children)

We found this out last night too! My brother can unlock our dad’s iPhone X with Face ID. 100% of the time.

[–]AmishAvenger 24 points25 points  (12 children)

Yeah...not good. I think maybe they should’ve done some more testing before rolling it out on such a massive scale.

Also, what a horrendous ringtone!

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[–]lingaoyi 2 points3 points  (0 children)

hahahaha

[–]Randall_Stevenz 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Shutting mine off now.

[–]Easy_Toast 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Hopefully sarcasm lol

[–]Servername 5 points6 points  (12 children)

I wonder if ML would avoid this in the future. Since it’s supposed to get more accurate over time.

[–]SanDiegoDudeiPhone6 Plus 19 points20 points  (8 children)

This isn’t how ML works on devices. It does in the lab where the model is being trained, however that training results in a learned model that is applied at the Endpoint device. That’s why you don’t need to train an ML model on a device, because it is already trained to identify whatever feature elements it’s looking for.

Now if Apple tweaks the model in the lab to fix this problem and pushed out the learned model in an update, then maybe they can address the issue... but the learned model won’t be able to fix this issue over time on its own, it just doesn’t work that way.

(I work with Deep Learning/ANN systems)

[–]nupogodiiPhone X 256GB 9 points10 points  (6 children)

... except Apple does train the model on-device over time. Perhaps not in the classical "ML model" sense that you are describing - they are quite explicit that the model of your face that it uses to unlock, does evolve over time. I mean, think about it for a second - Apple cannot train the model to unlock for your face in the lab. They don't know your face! You are training it when you are setting up FaceID!

You are talking about the big pile of linear algebra with precise definition of the term 'ML model'. OP is not.

But in this case FaceID absolutely needs to be trained on your face.

edit: Also k-NN is a machine learning technique that requires absolutely nothing from the training data other than it existing and having a distance function defined. I know it's not identical to computer vision, like at all, but it's still a trivial example of on-device machine learning ... so saying on-device training is off the table, is simply untrue.

[–]SanDiegoDudeiPhone6 Plus 5 points6 points  (4 children)

Yea, that’s still not training the underlying ML model, at least from a traditional ANN standpoint.

Apple cannot train the model to unlock for your face in the lab. They don’t know your face! You are training it when you are setting up FaceID

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how ML works and what it actually does. (No offense, most folks don’t)

The model in the lab is “trained” to identify elements of whatever the target of the ML is meant to identify, whether its fingerprints, cars, dogs or faces. Artificial Neural Networking (ANN, aka deep learning) uses multilayered descriptors which the model actually chooses for itself (Traditional ML relies on humans to choose descriptors). These descriptors build the learned model by being tested with a huge amount of true and false training data (In FaceID’s case they likely fed the model millions of faces scraped from the internet along with pictures of non-faces)

Once the learned model is ready, it will be fed test data to determine its level of accuracy (This is the number that Tim Cook gave us onstage)

That learned model is what is actually pushed to your device. When you set up face ID, its going to analyze your face using the learned model from the lab and populate its data points. Its “ability to learn changing features over time” is not an adjustment of the learned model, but instead tweaking of the collected data points within the model.

Hopefully this makes sense and helps describe what’s actually happening. 👍🏼

[–]nupogodiiPhone X 256GB 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Its “ability to learn changing features over time” is not an adjustment of the learned model, but instead tweaking of the collected data points within the model.

... except your entire argument was that it doesn't "learn over time". But Apple has contradicted you in their own documentation, I've given you a trivial counterexample of on-device machine learning (literal learning, by growing the training data, in a technique that doesn't require any pre-calculation), I can point you to Apple's own API for compiling an ML model (although this is kind of a lame example, because you still need something to generate that model... you CAN compile it on-device!)

Yes, it's great that you work with ANN for your day job, I work with big data in a more limited capacity than that, but you said "it doesn't learn because that's not how it works" and, well... it does learn... because that is how it works. You are correct in the narrow problem space you defined for yourself, which is great for you, but it's not what anyone was talking about. You've literally contradicted your argument in the sentence that I've quoted ...

[–]SanDiegoDudeiPhone6 Plus 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Yep, you’re wrong. Read the white paper up above. It works exactly as I described. If you want I can pull excerpts. The model is trained in the lab, the learned model builds the mathematical representation of your face using the 30,000 IR dot collection for its data points, and those data points adjust over time. This is not adjusting the learned model, only the data points represented within that model (key difference here). If there is a flaw in the model, more data collections will not fix the flaw, which is what I was explaining in my original reply. The model itself must be corrected in the lab.

[–]nupogodiiPhone X 256GB 5 points6 points  (1 child)

and those data points adjust over time.

... so it learns over time. Christ, man, listen to yourself.

[–]SanDiegoDudeiPhone6 Plus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Adjusting over time and correcting a flaw in the model are not the same thing.

[–]rich-evans 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Like the person you're responding to, I also work with ML (for research, not in computer science) and it's clear to me that you don't know what it means to train a model. This is the reason for this discussion, and I suggest you read up on how this stuff works before trying to formulate an opinion or have a conversation.

[–]Servername 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the answer. This is beyond my scope, I was just wondering after I read the Face ID security white paper.

[–]StoicJ 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Samsung just does an Iris scanner, so family or not it's staying locked without going to the annoying lengths of printing it hd photos of their eyes

[–]spkos 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That's not going to work...... It uses ir light and it doesn't see paper

[–]shresthabijay26 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, you would need to make lens and wear it.

[–]preliminaryprelimina 20 points21 points  (16 children)

I mean, you DO look quite similar, even if you are "only" brothers. Not hard to see why it behaves the way it does.

[–]mohanishs[S] 47 points48 points  (9 children)

We thought that too. And I agree we do have some similar features...but we no way look that identical..i would expect the face id technology to better eliminate feature similarities within siblings.

[–]txaggies07 21 points22 points  (8 children)

They said the accuracy is 1 in a million....

I guess your brother is one of 7000 people on the planet to be able to unlock your phone. A little bit of a fail on Apple's part.

[–]no2t 9 points10 points  (1 child)

I would really like to know what the average accuracy is when comparing to siblings/parents/grandparents. It surely is below 1 in a million, but also assumes conditionally shared facial features.

[–]DragonTamerMCTiPhone 7 Plus 256GB 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Someone said Apple said (I know, mouthful) that the accuracy drops with identical twins, but it should still be able to tell them apart once it learns.

[–]clumsyalex 3 points4 points  (1 child)

apple also states that those numbers to do not apply to siblings that look alike or identical twins. I’m guessing the odds are much higher and that is why the did not specifically state those odds.

[–]Dukes_Mangola 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Exactly. The fact that they did not even mention those odds tells us how poor those numbers must have been for Apple.

[–]uberweb 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Some corporate IT security guy is going to decide iPhone faceId is not secure enough and prevent company network/vpn access unless you type in a password.

[–]that_one_random_dude 11 points12 points  (1 child)

That corporate IT security guy is going to be right.

[–]pantsoff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A little bit? Try increasing that a lot.

[–]bberlinn 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Good job guys. If you bought the iPhone X for its security. There you have your answer. Long live Touch ID.

[–]iRichi3 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Maybe Apple sold you Glasses ID? Lol damned early days of biometrics!

[–]Mikuka_G 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Sceptical about the chances being 1 in a million, that's a very rounded number given all the permutations

[–]clumsyalex 3 points4 points  (0 children)

“The probability of a false match is different for twins and siblings that look like you as well as among children under the age of 13”

[–]shresthabijay26 0 points1 point  (0 children)

well, that one in million just becomes 1 in 1000 for relatives and you will be in contact with them most of the time.

[–]OandG 1 point2 points  (1 child)

You guys are one in a million!

[–]UsernameTakenNot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But there are 7 billion people so 7000 people would be able to unlock their iPhone?

[–]TheItalianDude12345 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The actual owner of the device, show us you unlocking it without your glasses on. The reason I’d say it does this is because, first of all you two look very similar, so if the phone comes across similar looking people I’d say it looks for other different things, like a pair of glasses to tell them apart. So when he put on the glasses it opened, anyway Apple. Oils release an update in like a week and it would be fixed, unlike android..........

[–]vamsiyuvaraj 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think they trained face ID with both their faces. ( I know that face ID supports only one face, but during that set up, half the pattern might have been filled by one and the other half by the other. This can be done for touch ID as well. During training of touch ID, you can use two fingers for one training) So I can believe this only when they show the whole process from set up.

Set up using one face and unlock it using the other please!

[–]unscot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Glasses block part of your face so the system has to guess what's behind them. Best not to wear them for training.

[–]BronzeLogic 1 point2 points  (3 children)

This is really embarrassing for Face ID technology and Apple. These two individuals are not identical twins, they're not even fraternal twins. Two brothers 5 years apart. Even a cursory glance at their face and any human should be able to tell the difference. One has a mole on his right cheek and it doesn't. One has more hair than the other.

If you took any reasonably intelligent person and showed them a picture of the two and then asked them to identify the two in real life, they should never mistake the two because of these facial differences.

[–]shapeless69 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Before you go overboard read the OPs update.

[–]Dukes_Mangola 1 point2 points  (0 children)

OP's update came two hours after this guy made his post. Was he magically supposed to know there was an update coming?

[–]eydendibiPhone 7 Plus 128GB 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's a reason why it's called Artificial Intelligence. And on a phone, for that matter. It relies on algorithms and calculations, not perception.

Face ID main points are the nose, eyes, and the mouth. They look very similar to each other and that reduces the security percentage. Read the update comment.

[–]hismerecry 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Remember you can only register one face on the device so there’s no way both of them had their face IDs on the device

[–]Pavlovs_Doug 4 points5 points  (0 children)

"Not twins." Well good god damn, pretty fuckin close. Lol

[–]AncestralSpirit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why does your TV have a giant moustache that basically blocks the view?

[–]ghostfreckle611 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Doesn’t IR not work through glass? If it doesn’t, then putting on glasses decreases the amount of actual facial data that it can use to compare faces to unlock, thus making it easier to unlock with different faces. I’d think the eyes would be where the most individuality would be...

[–]Coompa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They swapped the phone.

[–]DonQuixoteee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While setting up Face ID, one of them did the first scan and the other did the second scan.

[–]media_lush 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I actually thought they were twins... my brain is obviously bionic too!

[–]MrOverSt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do initial setup without glasses. DUH!

[–]turbocomppro 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I believe this is a strategy on Apple where people are fed up with Face ID for the X, they'll bring back Touch ID for the Xs next year and everyone will buy that instead. Remember I said it first!

[–]shapeless69 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Guys read the OPs update. He mentions exactly how it’s happening. Looks like a bug.

Don’t feed the trolls.

You know the same trolls who mock Apple saying it’s not innovative and doesn’t do anything new.

When they do come up with a new tech these trolls wait for anything negative so they can use to bash Apple and its users.

It’s clearly first gen tech and need some time to tweak and make it perfect. I’m sure Apple will investigate and push some updates if it’s some bug.

Remember people will do anything nowadays to get something viral or clicks. Now give it some time before all the “publications” run clickbait articles on this.

I understand that if it’s a bug it has major security concerns and I have confidence Apple will find a solution. Stop moaning and give them a chance.

[–]thedonza 0 points1 point  (0 children)

FaceGate

[–]FrozenJackal 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How is no one calling bs on this, the iPhone goes out of frame many times during the video and even switches hands when they bring it back into frame. Am I the only one that watched the video before commenting?

[–]aztecdude 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unfortunately we have Face ID because Apple wasn’t able to figure out how to integrate Touch ID into the phone’s screen. Touch ID is the faster solution.

[–]Vortico 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Faces and fingerprints are usernames, not passwords. http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2013/10/fingerprints-are-user-names-not.html

[–]auci[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You look the same (except the hair)

[–]Treekiller 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Spooooooman

[–]_prodex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Has anyone considered the fact you can just use a picture of the person to unlock their phone? You don't need to overcomplicate it.

[–]Hardwareimpaired [score hidden]  (0 children)

Racist much? According to Apple, all you people look alike. Maybe they need just a touch of diversity in their engineering tea ,

[–]KnutheniPhone 6S Plus 64GB -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

unfortunately the phone is not shown the whole time. he COULD have swapped it after he puts on his glasses... Just saying :o

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Denial. Can’t believe you’re trying to excuse failure just because it’s Apple. They do NOT get a pass after 1000+ dollars.

[–]RedditHoss 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can you record it again, keeping the phone on-camera the entire time?

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top 200 commentsshow all 237

[–]Duder211iPhone X 256GB 70 points71 points  (12 children)

That's a little unsettling

[–]Sphincterzilla 21 points22 points  (9 children)

Apple mentioned in the keynote that close relatives will be more likely to be able to trick FaceID. It looks like he trained it with the glasses so FaceID recognises the glasses as a facial feature therefore making it more likely the brother will be able to unlock it.

[–]ikjadoon 65 points66 points  (6 children)

Shouldn't matter. Glasses shouldn't be a key part of the authentication--at all. What if the primary user isn't wearing his/her glasses? Is Face ID supposed to reject them, too?

Man. Windows Hello's infrared is 1 out of 100,000 false positives and twins couldn't be falsely authenticated even with 5 different pairs of twins. It means it's not the technology per se, but just the current iteration.

We did need Touch ID 2nd gen to get a really solid experience; maybe the same for Face ID 2nd gen next year.

[–]misterfeynman 17 points18 points  (1 child)

As far as I know the Windows Hello system also looks at your face’s vasculature. Which should be is sufficiently unique even for twins.

[–]uniqueguy263iPhone 7 Plus 32GB 16 points17 points  (0 children)

So should face id

[–]psilty 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Windows hello takes a couple seconds to work and has a higher false negative rate with glasses, etc.

Obviously the use case is different for something where you’re authenticating a few times a day while likely sitting down in a stable environment vs someone unlocking a phone dozens of times a day possibly outside, while walking around, etc. It’s a trade off between usability and absolute security.

[–]harrro 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Also Windows Hello has a ton more processing power available since it's on a full desktop/powerful laptop.

[–]HammyHavoc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

False. It was available on W10M with Snapdragon processors that paled compared to what's in an iPhone. It hardly uses any resources, even on a desktop with plenty available to it.

[–]mistaroundmountains 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They are factoring in glasses as part of matching algo...

[–]mohanishs[S] 51 points52 points  (24 children)

Hi,

We wanted to give an update on this, since we have had some time to play around with the phone a bit. And this is whats happening. I did not realize what exact steps we had followed until it happened again today. We have been resetting face id and doing it all over again. And this is what the steps are that makes it happen almost 50% of the time. Not sure if its intended or is a bug. 1. My brother(left) setup the face id. 2. Unlocks with his face. Does not with mine. 3. I entered the pin with the phone facing me. It it unlocked as expected. 4. Now I locked it again. 5. I raised it up to my face, and it unlocks. 6. It unlocks each time after that with my face

Again, it does not happen always. We have seen it happen around 50% of the time. Not sure if this is an intended ML behavior. Its an edge case where you need to know the ID and have similar features too. Maybe its a bug.

We feel a little better about the security, but still a few cracks to iron out.

[–]andreas16700iPhone5S 16 points17 points  (6 children)

  1. Unlocks with his face. Does not with mine. 3. I entered the pin with the phone facing me. It it unlocked as expected. 4. Now I locked it again. 5. I raised it up to my face, and it unlocks.

Seriously? That's pretty much how it learns appearance changes. You didn't think that was relevant information? That's literally expected behaviour. The headline is already making news. Great, more Face ID FUD.

[–]mohanishs[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yup and thats what the video says. We did not realize that when we made the first video. When I entered the passcode, it did not work right away..and started doing that after a few tries. So it was hard to point out the exact case. Hence the second video.

[–]a_reptile 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Hey do you know what doesn't look alike? Their fingerprints.

Look I don't know much about the faceid technology or how it stores your face data, but the fact of the matter is that there's a problem here.

Maybe it's expected behaviour and maybe that's how the tech works. But at the end of the day, two people are able to unlock the same iPhone, which is not okay.

So since the new iPhone can be unlocked by identical twins and tricked by siblings who look alike,(and maybe even dopplegängers. We'll have to wait and see) don't you think that apple is pulling numbers out of its ass when it comes to faceid and has essentially handed us a beta product?

[–]andreas16700iPhone5S 7 points8 points  (3 children)

but the fact of the matter is that there's a problem here.

Uhh not really? Why would anyone but the owner know the passcode?

But at the end of the day, two people are able to unlock the same iPhone, which is not okay.

Again, you need to know the passcode first

Look I don't know much about the faceid technology or how it stores your face data

sounds about right

[–]a_reptile 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Uhh not really? Why would anyone but the owner know the passcode?

All the kids I know know their parents' passcodes. All of my friends know their SO's passcodes. It's something that happens when you're in a relationship based on trust

Again, you need to know the passcode first

Doesn't matter. What matters is that someone else is able to get into the phone with faceid, whereas one wouldn't be able to with touchid

sounds about right

Context.

[–]dpkonofa 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Doesn't matter. What matters is that someone else is able to get into the phone with faceid, whereas one wouldn't be able to with touchid

That's completely not true. If someone knows your passcode, they can absolutely get into your phone with TouchID. That's the whole problem here. They've given their passcode to another person immediately after the initial training (which is exactly what the issue is here... FaceID is still learning the person's face). Had the person used it for an hour or 2 and then handed it to the other person, this wouldn't even be part of the discussion.

[–]lazygamer26 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What is more relevant is whether on changing the pin, it still authenticates the brother. Because once u know the pin, either person is always going to be in with pin. Face id is just redundant at that point of time

[–]oscarmendonca 17 points18 points  (6 children)

This should really be a pinned comment (if is possible in reddit). Like MrOverSt wrote, if you know your pin, and insert it, what did you expect? FaceID learns with time, if it fails but someone very similar to the previous data enters the pin, it will assume is the same person.

[–]jonlucciPhone 7 128GB 5 points6 points  (5 children)

This means that I can no longer use the pin to give access to people though. With TouchID, I can give the pin away when I want someone to access my phone without training it to always let that person in.

[–]harrro 5 points6 points  (3 children)

If you trust someone with your pin, then you're actually giving them more access than touchID/FaceID.

This is why your phone forces you to enter the PIN after a restart or if you haven't used the App store in a while and try to make a purchase.

[–]yummy_stuff 4 points5 points  (2 children)

You can easily change you pin, you can't change your face

[–]harrro 1 point2 points  (0 children)

you can't change your face

Prosthetics? Plastic surgery?

[–]narrowtuxiPhone6 64GB Space Grey 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You can delete what it learned and start from scratch

[–]oscarmendonca 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If is a similar person, and they try to unlock with their face, yes. Although I imagine once you unlock with your face again, the other person’s face wouldn’t be a match.

Also the longer you use this, the better the phone will know you.

[–]MrOverSt 7 points8 points  (7 children)

Its pretty obvious what happening here. Why would anyone other than the person that registered their face with Face ID know the password?

If it works like the Kinect works. Its actually recording face data when the password is entered manually. Since you guys look alike. The phone thinks its a missed scan and corrects it self with the data that was just recorded.

Also take your glasses off when you register Face ID.

[–]mohanishs[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I was trying to look for it. But not sure if I can pin it. Reddit doesnt allow that

[–]MrOverSt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It actually makes perfectly good sense why pure getting it to fail. It operating as intended. One word of advice.

Do you initial setup without your glasses. And remember that the passcode overrides Face ID data. As far as why. It’s self explanatory.

[–]gablopico 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think MrOverSt explained very well. You might wanna edit your post for clarification. Btw, this is going viral. I came here from the article on quartz!

[–]ratedsar 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Why would anyone other than the person that registered their face with Face ID know the password?

A lot of significant others and family members know eachother's passwords and pins.

[–]MrOverSt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok, then people shouldn't get mad when the security of their iPhone is compromised because they gave their password out. Logic.

[–]digitalpizza 0 points1 point  (1 child)

So people should take their glasses off to unlock their phone?

[–]MrOverSt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why are you asking stupid questions?

[–]mohanishs[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We have a new video showing the steps to reproduce the issue.

https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/7atwap/update_iphonex_face_id_fail/

[–]england-is-my-gender 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This seems like its adapting to what it thinks is changes in your face. Since the two of you look very similar, when the second brother opens it with the passcode, that makes the phone adapt more to him, since it now thinks he is the owner. I think it seems to be working as intended, just adapting to the new facial look, although I would assume it wouldn't happen if the person looks nothing like you

[–]SshaawnniPhone X 64GB 37 points38 points  (1 child)

That’s it, I’m calling my brother. More to come..

[–]agumonkey 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If the iPhone fails to fail with a brother, would it challenge it reveals his adoption ?

ps: Can't wait for families to scan their siblings to see if they're true apple-familiness score.

[–]spazma7ik 60 points61 points  (12 children)

Question - did you setup FaceID with your glasses on? Not that it should matter.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 96 points97 points  (4 children)

It shouldn’t matter at all according to Apple. This is a big fail

[–]eydendibiPhone 7 Plus 128GB 1 point2 points  (3 children)

It's like saying "Touch ID doesn't work for people with sweaty hands and some other cases so it's a huge failure!"

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Comparison doesn’t make sense. Besides sweaty hands and gloves making Touch ID almost inaccessible, has there been a case of bypassing Touch ID’s security?

[–]eydendibiPhone 7 Plus 128GB 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm making a point of it being a failure. If 70% of the total population of iPhone X owners actually face this kind of problem, talks of failure should then be discussed. And this is what? The third? fourth? Fifth? Against millions? I don't think that considers as a failure yet. For the specific cases, yes, but for the general population, no.

Read the update OP has made about the situation. They didn't even give Face ID a chance to learn the owner's face because they would keep resetting Face ID for every failure.

[–]jasonlotito 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If Apple says it will work with something, and it doesn't, would you call it a success or failure?

[–]mohanishs[S] 33 points34 points  (6 children)

Yes my brother did. Actually when my brother set it up. He was wearing a different set of glasses. Not very similar to the ones we have on in the video.

[–]agracadabara 27 points28 points  (3 children)

Since removing the glasses made it unable to unlock with your face.

Set it up without glasses and see if it still can't distinguish you vs your brother.

The false match probability drops for twins and siblings. The glasses during setup probably drop it further since the frame reduces the number or match points.

"The probability of a false match is different for twins and siblings that look like you "

https://images.apple.com/business/docs/FaceID_Security_Guide.pdf

[–]iamagoatm8 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Removing the glasses and setting it up should work, but then you will have to remove your glasses everytime you want to unlock your device!

[–]agracadabara 16 points17 points  (0 children)

No you won’t have to. You set it up without anything so it gets a accurate map of your actual face. Then it uses that to find a match with occlusions.

Since the original data has more match points the software can extrapolate better.

[–]HandsomeAssNiggaiPhone 7 Plus 128GB 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not true. I don’t wear glasses and set up FaceID at home when I got my phone.

Phone still unlocked with my shades on and safety glasses on at work.

[–]fanisp 41 points42 points  (0 children)

Ouch that hurts !

[–]ChemPetE 135 points136 points  (14 children)

Probably unlocking with both of you trains it to accept either or more often as well. Probably resetting it to a single person and keeping it with that one person for a while would tighten up the security.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 34 points35 points  (10 children)

Probably unlocking with both of you trains it to accepr either or more often as well

How was the 2nd face able to unlock it in the first place since Apple claimed ‘Face ID is a face at a time?’

[–]icandrive155 36 points37 points  (1 child)

With a 1 in 1,000,000 failure rate /s

[–]agracadabara 16 points17 points  (3 children)

Can you post a video of your setup process and replicate the failure? Also set it up without glasses and see if you can still cause it to fail.

The acetate frame glasses seem to be reducing the number of points on your face it uses to compute a match. Since your bother couldn't unlock it without glasses on.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Don’t need to as it’s already been done by marshable and OP. Not everyone has the device or a sibling to ‘replicate the failure’.

[–]agracadabara 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Sorry the way your phone tag shows up I thought you were the OP.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No worries

[–]dpkonofa 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Because the 2nd face unlocked it, during the training period, with the passcode. They literally trained the phone to open using the 2nd person's face and then were surprised when it did exactly that. This whole thing is such nonsense.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 1 point2 points  (1 child)

There’s no point trying to defend Face ID’s flaws as this ‘training period’ makes little sense to me.

Moved from android to iOS and people told me that it’s possible to train Touch ID by going to settings and placing your fingerprints to enhance it.

Tbh, it’s made little to no difference on improving the accuracy of Touch ID on my 7.

[–]threeseed 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The training period is a critical part of the process if you understood how FaceID works i.e. recurrent neural networks.

FaceID needs to be adjust to handle changes in your face and the passcode is the key that determines whether the change is accepted or not.

[–]Renovatius 24 points25 points  (0 children)

This needs to be higher up. A very probable reason. Especially in the first few days of training.

[–]sirbonce 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Were there reports of Touch ID being tricked this easily without going so far as copying the person's fingerprint?

[–]Jabingla 33 points34 points  (20 children)

As Apple said in the keynote, the chance that a random person can open your phone is 1,000,000 to 1, but for family members, particularly close ones, it’s less.

They even recommended that twins just use a passcode.

It’s unfortunate for those with similar looking relatives, but not totally unexpected.

[–]stiff_lip 38 points39 points  (1 child)

Yes, one in a million with stipulations. Interestinly enough it's easier to find someone looking like you than matching your fingerprints.

[–]Jabingla 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yeah that’s totally true, good point!

[–]icandrive155 35 points36 points  (16 children)

Well then FaceId is pure shit isn't it?

[–]PeacefulSkeptic 4 points5 points  (6 children)

I think you may be overreacting slightly.

[–]icandrive155 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Security feature is easily defeated. Yeah, hopefully not keeping national security secrets on your iPhone but if it can be beaten this easily it's pretty much shit. They need to figure out how to get Touch ID to work again.

[–]PeacefulSkeptic 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Easily defeated

Yes potentially by a twin or a close looking sibling. Which Apple has already mentioned and documented.

Yeah, hopefully not keeping national security secrets on your iPhone

Yeah you’re just trying to be outrageous. Let’s be real, is this something Apple should tighten up? Absolutely. Is this actually going to affect real people in any substantial way? Probably not.

[–]icandrive155 5 points6 points  (3 children)

"Which Apple has already mentioned and documented."

What the hell difference does this make? Disclosing a weakness does not in any way insulate Apple from responsibility for the failure. Confessing doesn't give them a free pass for screwing the pooch. They've gone all in on face id and it's been proven to be defeated by someone who just looks like the actual owner. This is a glaring security flaw. They have to do much better than this.

[–]PeacefulSkeptic 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Siblings or twins. This isn’t as big a deal as you want it to be. And I think deep down you know this isn’t as big a deal as you’re making it out to be. I’m running through scenarios in my head where I try to find a practical way this would be used against me, I can’t think of one.

[–]icandrive155 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Right. So only the few of us with siblings need to worry about this one.

[–]dpkonofa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Only the few of you with siblings that you give the passcode to and then train to use your face as your own... You are making a big deal out of nothing here.

[–]tetroxid 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yes, basically

[–]loggedn2say 4 points5 points  (4 children)

for the overwhelming majority, no. but facial recognition tech is going to have a difficult time with identical twins and very close relatives.

but that's the tech and apple iteration is apparently the best version yet. if someone has an evil twin though, i wouldn't get this phone or use the passcode only.

[–]ikjadoon 10 points11 points  (3 children)

but that's the tech and apple iteration is apparently the best version yet

Doubtful. Granted, Microsoft has a lot more experience with infrared cameras (a la Kinect), but not even five pairs of twins could get Windows Hello to fuck up.

We need a Face ID gen2.

[–]loggedn2say 2 points3 points  (2 children)

having used microsoft version back then it likely can be as specific as microsoft's, but like microsoft's version will require more exact head position and have higher rate of failure.

see also: non-pr setups https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY8gGlkyOgY

[–]ikjadoon 6 points7 points  (1 child)

but like microsoft's version will require more exact head position

Nah, Microsoft's position is up to 15 degrees. How recently have you used it?...

and have higher rate of failure.

Ostensibly.

see also: non-pr setups https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY8gGlkyOgY

It was done by a newspaper and they tested five pairs of twins, not one. Do you know what The Australian is?

[–]loggedn2say 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nah, Microsoft's position is up to 15 degrees.

that's less than faceid...

and they tested five pairs of twins, not one.

well, the video of OP is only one failure too. it also failed in your link

In the case of Isabelle and Natalie Brown, 11, Windows Hello was unable to log in either. That was the only instance where the system failed.

and was slow like i said

In the end, there were some cases of Windows Hello taking its time to identify a twin

It was done by a newspaper

which is probably pitched and assisted by microsoft. that's pretty common for hardware featurettes but is hard to confirm.

[–]Jabingla 4 points5 points  (2 children)

If you have an identical twin or spouse that looks very similar. Then yeah.

[–]nupogodiiPhone X 256GB 53 points54 points  (1 child)

Spouse? Calm down, Lannister ...

[–]Jabingla 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Ha shit! I’m not even going to edit my comment, don’t want to ruin your joke 🙂

[–]loggedn2say 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yup for those worried in that situation better keep it on passcode only or not get a facial unlock phone.

[–]agracadabara 28 points29 points  (22 children)

"The probability that a random person the population could look at your iPhone X and unlock it using Face ID is approximately 1 in 1,000,000 (versus 1 in 50,000 for Touch ID). For additional protection, Face ID allows only five unsuccessful match attempts before a passcode is required to obtain access to your iPhone. The probability of a false match is different for twins and siblings that look like you as well as among children under the age of 13, because their distinct facial features may not have fully developed. If you're concerned about this, we recommend using a passcode to authenticate."

https://images.apple.com/business/docs/FaceID_Security_Guide.pdf

[–]BPOPRiPhone 2G 4GB 15 points16 points  (18 children)

Please Do Not Interrupt the Circle Jerk

[–]ikjadoon 14 points15 points  (15 children)

Eh, not so much. Apple's marketing is...doing marketing. We're calling attention to the missing information in that paragraph. They only compared Face ID vs Touch ID when it was favourable for Face ID.

In other words: your siblings don't have the same fingerprints, at all. A better reading would've been,

The probability that a random person the population could look at your iPhone X and unlock it using Face ID is approximately 1 in 1,000,000 (versus 1 in 50,000 for Touch ID).

The probability that your sibling could look at your iPhone X and unlock it using Face ID is approximately 1 in 5,000 (versus 1 in 50,000 for Touch ID).

Whatever the number is, but even twins have different fingerprints, so your siblings' prints are sure the fuck super different.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 4 points5 points  (11 children)

These people just argue to suit their own narrative. If for instance my sister can unlock my device while I’m asleep using Face ID, it’s really concerning. Whereas the possibility of her unlocking my device with Touch ID is very low.

The X is a great device for someone new to iOS or upgrading from a 5s and below but Face ID still needs time to get better just like Touch ID first gen. if people keep making excuses for this failure due to bias then it might not get better.

[–]dpkonofa 0 points1 point  (7 children)

If for instance my sister can unlock my device while I’m asleep using Face ID, it’s really concerning. Whereas the possibility of her unlocking my device with Touch ID is very low.

This wouldn't really be possible with your sister unless, like in the OP's video, you erased the FaceID data between every attempt and used her face with a PIN to unlock it at some point in the past. The entire crux of the issue is that FaceID gets more secure the more it authenticates against the "correct" face. If you immediately train it with an "incorrect" face, then the margin of error will be greater. All it would take is an hour or two of use by the "correct" face to fix the issue in question.

As for the second part, it's curious that you're more concerned about a sibling unlocking the phone and bring up the chances of TouchID unlocking for the sibling yet don't mention at all that the chances of a random stranger opening up a TouchID enabled phone is far greater. It's still "good enough" but for 99% of people using this, FaceID is far more secure than TouchID.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 1 point2 points  (6 children)

In the practical sense, Touch ID is more secure than Face ID since facial features are more similar than fingerprints.

[–]dpkonofa 0 points1 point  (5 children)

That is absolutely not true. TouchID has a 1:50,000 rate of error with a random stranger. FaceID has a 1:1,000,000 rate of false positive with a stranger. The issue in the video is that they trained it using both of their facial data. Facial features, especially when dot-scanned and using IR (which responds to things like blood flow in the face), are not more similar than fingerprints.

[–]PM_ME_YO_GAMS_GIRL 0 points1 point  (4 children)

TouchID has a 1:50,000 rate of error with a random stranger. FaceID has a 1:1,000,000 rate of false positive with a stranger.

Well we're not talking about two random strangers. We're talking about two relatives who are more likely to look the same. Of course apple doesn't tell us the rate of false positives with relatives, but I'm sure it's pretty high which in the end makes touch ID more secure since two relatives aren't going to share the same or similar finger prints.

[–]dpkonofa 0 points1 point  (3 children)

No, we're talking about the security of Face ID vs. Touch ID. You said that Touch ID is more secure than Face ID and that's just not factually true. As long as Face ID is set up properly, as instructed, and it has a correct model of the person built, it will always be more secure than Touch ID. Twins are the exception and even people can't always tell the difference apart. Relatives are not an issue unless the system is not trained properly and the relative has access to the PIN/passcode.

[–]PM_ME_YO_GAMS_GIRL 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Twins are the exception and even people can't always tell the difference apart. Relatives are not an issue unless the system is not trained properly and the relative has access to the PIN/passcode.

And because of this, Face ID is less secure. End of story. If Face ID grants twins and some family members access, then it is less secure than a fingerprint since even identical twins have different fingerprints. That 1 in a million number is for two random strangers, but the rate of false positives is probably much higher than Touch ID because of the fact that family members are more likely to have access to your phone.

I've seen a few videos already of people fooling Face ID. Haven't seen the same with Touch ID. How does that make Face ID MORE secure when the whole point of it is to stop other people from accessing your device?

[–]loggedn2say 0 points1 point  (2 children)

If for instance my sister can unlock my device while I’m asleep using Face ID

not possible unless you sleep with your eyes open (some people do), in which case i'd say you're vulnerable with touchid too.

it's not better than touchid in every situation but that doesnt make it bad if you know it's limitations and make an informed decision when you buy it. for those concerned i think it's fine to stay away.

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Was talking about her picking up my device while I’m asleep while she uses her face to unlock it due to similar features. You completely missed my point.

[–]loggedn2say 1 point2 points  (0 children)

if you think you are the 1 in 5000 that look close enough to your sister, then you should be scared i guess...i'd bet cash money you/she cant though. "similar features" isn't the same as what happened in the video here

[–]loggedn2say 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Whatever the number is, but even twins have different fingerprints, so your siblings' prints are sure the fuck super different.

i think this is the definition of making a mountain out of a molehill.

if you carry sensitive info and feel you are susceptible by a relative or doppelganger it seems like you should stay far away from this phone and/or be ok with using passcode.

otherwise it's compromises over touchid are likely fine for people that want the phone.

[–]rich-evans 4 points5 points  (1 child)

think this is the definition of making a mountain out of a molehill.

Apple sells a $1000 product that features an authentication method that they claim is many many times safer than its predecessor, without mentioning that it's basically useless if you have a same-sex sibling. If people complaining about that are making a mountain out of a molehill, I'd like to see what you consider a serious issue.

[–]loggedn2say 1 point2 points  (0 children)

they claim is many many times safer than its predecessor

they did... where?

without mentioning that it's basically useless if you have a same-sex sibling.

yeah...one unverified video isnt proof of that. it works by measuring the distance between features and those features. if the scale is close it will fail. they arent hiding it.

If people complaining about that are making a mountain out of a molehill, I'd like to see what you consider a serious issue.

they flat out tell you it can fail. guess what, it will fail under the right circumstances. i do not consider that a huge issue, because touchid wasn't 100% secure either. guess what if someone with enough resources wants in your phone, touch, face, passcode will not matter. if you dont trust your siblings and they are the few 1 in 5000 that will fail the security don't get this phone. if that is a big problem for you, you are playing life on extremely hard.

Apple sells a $1000

and the majority of people who can pay that, probably don't have an evil sibling who has access to their phone.

[–]Benmjt 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is a $1000 phone

[–]LlindediPhone 8 Plus 64GB 5 points6 points  (1 child)

The probability of a false match is different for twins and siblings that look like you as well as among children under the age of 13, because their distinct facial features may not have fully developed. If you're concerned about this, we recommend using a passcode to authenticate.

So, it's safe when someone is not looking like you, meanwhile everybody including children have different fingerprints.

[–]agracadabara 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In this case I think the setup was done with glasses. I would like to see them repeat this with doing the setup without the glasses which occlude facial features and increase the false match probability.

[–]one_pump_trump 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Apple did say 1 in a million... but there are billions of people on the earth. Technically they aren't lying. Fingerprints are 1 in 50000, but relatives don't necessarily share similar fingerprints, but relatives do have similar facial features.

Lets call it FaceGate.

[–]xTheCriticx 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Let’s be honest with the community. These gentlemen look a lot a like. They’re like Mario and Luigi in their similarities. You could fool me that they’re not twins let alone a phone.

[–]jviiPhone6s 64GB Gold 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yea, pretty much same nose, chin, ears, lips. Face shape and maybe eyebrow structure is a bit different, but eyes look pretty similar too.

[–]Erwaso 10 points11 points  (5 children)

Bring back touch id!

[–]InspireAndAdmire[🍰] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Or just get the 8?

[–]Erwaso 19 points20 points  (2 children)

I did. I got a Note 8 lol

[–]InspireAndAdmire[🍰] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I meant iPhone 8 lol

[–]Erwaso 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Haha I know

[–]jkslate 2 points3 points  (0 children)

yeah, get the inferior phone to get the superior tech, thats the answer!

[–]Crrack 25 points26 points  (4 children)

Failing aside, watching how specific you need to be with the movement of lifting the phone in front of your face to unlock is confirming my main issue I had with the whole FaceID idea.

[–]nupogodiiPhone X 256GB 22 points23 points  (0 children)

They are exaggerating for the video to make it clear when they are attempting to unlock the phone

Realistically you only need to kinda look at the thing. It's quite seamless and doesn't require you to exaggeratedly glare at the phone

I pick it up and swipe up and I might see the FaceID screen for 1/10th of a second or so before it unlocks

[–]My_Normal_Account 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Not at all. He’s just new to the phone. You simply swipe up to go into the phone and it will take you right in if it’s any where near pointed at your face with eyes forward. That lock button doesn’t reflect it failing or working always. It’s a small software thing - but it always pops right in immediately. I’m honestly blown away at how fast it is. I am concerned about some of the duping failures and I wonder if it’s simply tuning the algorithm to tighten it up. 30,000 IR dots should be enough to differentiate between siblings if tuned and taught correctly.

[–]Crrack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean that's good in theory. But you can see him look at it and then alter it's position to be more in front of him so it will unlock.

[–]dpkonofa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

if tuned and taught correctly

This is the entire problem here. They're using both faces, with a PIN, to get into the phone prior to what they've shown in the video. They've basically provided bogus training data so that enough of their combined features will trigger for both individuals. If one of them had set the FaceID feature up and then used it for 24 hours, this video wouldn't work.

BREAKING NEWS: Brothers who set up FaceID with the intent to cause it to fail cause it to fail. Story at 11!

[–]NoHonorHokaido 5 points6 points  (0 children)

iPhone is clearly white and all asians look the same to him.

[–]kereth 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Give me back my TouchID

[–]x3n0n1ciPhone X 64GB 2 points3 points  (1 child)

To be at least a bit fair they do look pretty similar. Put the dude on the rights hair on the guy in te left and it helps highlight this..

https://i.imgur.com/dvTHpRb.jpg

[–]Aquuleus 9 points10 points  (2 children)

Do you suppose Mashable, BGR & their ilk are going to run articles now about how "trivially" easy it is to bypass Face ID? Just throw on a pair of specs and get right in.

In all seriousness though, that should be concerning. The phone has been live for only days now and already Mashable has tricked it using twins and now just being siblings can work.

[–]Sphincterzilla 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Apple mentioned during the event that it works with twins and close relatives are more likely to fool it. They obviously have a very similar bone structure in their face. I think the guy trained FaceID with his glasses on and now the glasses are seen as a facial feature which would explain why it didn’t work when his glasses were off.

[–]icandrive155 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They call that the Clark Kent feature, and it's magical.

[–]brndnprks 7 points8 points  (0 children)

We found this out last night too! My brother can unlock our dad’s iPhone X with Face ID. 100% of the time.

[–]AmishAvenger 24 points25 points  (12 children)

Yeah...not good. I think maybe they should’ve done some more testing before rolling it out on such a massive scale.

Also, what a horrendous ringtone!

[–]TotesMessenger 2 points3 points  (0 children)

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[–]lingaoyi 2 points3 points  (0 children)

hahahaha

[–]Randall_Stevenz 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Shutting mine off now.

[–]Easy_Toast 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Hopefully sarcasm lol

[–]Servername 5 points6 points  (12 children)

I wonder if ML would avoid this in the future. Since it’s supposed to get more accurate over time.

[–]SanDiegoDudeiPhone6 Plus 19 points20 points  (8 children)

This isn’t how ML works on devices. It does in the lab where the model is being trained, however that training results in a learned model that is applied at the Endpoint device. That’s why you don’t need to train an ML model on a device, because it is already trained to identify whatever feature elements it’s looking for.

Now if Apple tweaks the model in the lab to fix this problem and pushed out the learned model in an update, then maybe they can address the issue... but the learned model won’t be able to fix this issue over time on its own, it just doesn’t work that way.

(I work with Deep Learning/ANN systems)

[–]nupogodiiPhone X 256GB 9 points10 points  (6 children)

... except Apple does train the model on-device over time. Perhaps not in the classical "ML model" sense that you are describing - they are quite explicit that the model of your face that it uses to unlock, does evolve over time. I mean, think about it for a second - Apple cannot train the model to unlock for your face in the lab. They don't know your face! You are training it when you are setting up FaceID!

You are talking about the big pile of linear algebra with precise definition of the term 'ML model'. OP is not.

But in this case FaceID absolutely needs to be trained on your face.

edit: Also k-NN is a machine learning technique that requires absolutely nothing from the training data other than it existing and having a distance function defined. I know it's not identical to computer vision, like at all, but it's still a trivial example of on-device machine learning ... so saying on-device training is off the table, is simply untrue.

[–]SanDiegoDudeiPhone6 Plus 5 points6 points  (4 children)

Yea, that’s still not training the underlying ML model, at least from a traditional ANN standpoint.

Apple cannot train the model to unlock for your face in the lab. They don’t know your face! You are training it when you are setting up FaceID

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how ML works and what it actually does. (No offense, most folks don’t)

The model in the lab is “trained” to identify elements of whatever the target of the ML is meant to identify, whether its fingerprints, cars, dogs or faces. Artificial Neural Networking (ANN, aka deep learning) uses multilayered descriptors which the model actually chooses for itself (Traditional ML relies on humans to choose descriptors). These descriptors build the learned model by being tested with a huge amount of true and false training data (In FaceID’s case they likely fed the model millions of faces scraped from the internet along with pictures of non-faces)

Once the learned model is ready, it will be fed test data to determine its level of accuracy (This is the number that Tim Cook gave us onstage)

That learned model is what is actually pushed to your device. When you set up face ID, its going to analyze your face using the learned model from the lab and populate its data points. Its “ability to learn changing features over time” is not an adjustment of the learned model, but instead tweaking of the collected data points within the model.

Hopefully this makes sense and helps describe what’s actually happening. 👍🏼

[–]nupogodiiPhone X 256GB 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Its “ability to learn changing features over time” is not an adjustment of the learned model, but instead tweaking of the collected data points within the model.

... except your entire argument was that it doesn't "learn over time". But Apple has contradicted you in their own documentation, I've given you a trivial counterexample of on-device machine learning (literal learning, by growing the training data, in a technique that doesn't require any pre-calculation), I can point you to Apple's own API for compiling an ML model (although this is kind of a lame example, because you still need something to generate that model... you CAN compile it on-device!)

Yes, it's great that you work with ANN for your day job, I work with big data in a more limited capacity than that, but you said "it doesn't learn because that's not how it works" and, well... it does learn... because that is how it works. You are correct in the narrow problem space you defined for yourself, which is great for you, but it's not what anyone was talking about. You've literally contradicted your argument in the sentence that I've quoted ...

[–]SanDiegoDudeiPhone6 Plus 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Yep, you’re wrong. Read the white paper up above. It works exactly as I described. If you want I can pull excerpts. The model is trained in the lab, the learned model builds the mathematical representation of your face using the 30,000 IR dot collection for its data points, and those data points adjust over time. This is not adjusting the learned model, only the data points represented within that model (key difference here). If there is a flaw in the model, more data collections will not fix the flaw, which is what I was explaining in my original reply. The model itself must be corrected in the lab.

[–]nupogodiiPhone X 256GB 5 points6 points  (1 child)

and those data points adjust over time.

... so it learns over time. Christ, man, listen to yourself.

[–]SanDiegoDudeiPhone6 Plus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Adjusting over time and correcting a flaw in the model are not the same thing.

[–]rich-evans 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Like the person you're responding to, I also work with ML (for research, not in computer science) and it's clear to me that you don't know what it means to train a model. This is the reason for this discussion, and I suggest you read up on how this stuff works before trying to formulate an opinion or have a conversation.

[–]Servername 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the answer. This is beyond my scope, I was just wondering after I read the Face ID security white paper.

[–]StoicJ 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Samsung just does an Iris scanner, so family or not it's staying locked without going to the annoying lengths of printing it hd photos of their eyes

[–]spkos 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That's not going to work...... It uses ir light and it doesn't see paper

[–]shresthabijay26 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, you would need to make lens and wear it.

[–]preliminaryprelimina 20 points21 points  (16 children)

I mean, you DO look quite similar, even if you are "only" brothers. Not hard to see why it behaves the way it does.

[–]mohanishs[S] 47 points48 points  (9 children)

We thought that too. And I agree we do have some similar features...but we no way look that identical..i would expect the face id technology to better eliminate feature similarities within siblings.

[–]txaggies07 21 points22 points  (8 children)

They said the accuracy is 1 in a million....

I guess your brother is one of 7000 people on the planet to be able to unlock your phone. A little bit of a fail on Apple's part.

[–]no2t 9 points10 points  (1 child)

I would really like to know what the average accuracy is when comparing to siblings/parents/grandparents. It surely is below 1 in a million, but also assumes conditionally shared facial features.

[–]DragonTamerMCTiPhone 7 Plus 256GB 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Someone said Apple said (I know, mouthful) that the accuracy drops with identical twins, but it should still be able to tell them apart once it learns.

[–]clumsyalex 3 points4 points  (1 child)

apple also states that those numbers to do not apply to siblings that look alike or identical twins. I’m guessing the odds are much higher and that is why the did not specifically state those odds.

[–]Dukes_Mangola 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Exactly. The fact that they did not even mention those odds tells us how poor those numbers must have been for Apple.

[–]uberweb 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Some corporate IT security guy is going to decide iPhone faceId is not secure enough and prevent company network/vpn access unless you type in a password.

[–]that_one_random_dude 11 points12 points  (1 child)

That corporate IT security guy is going to be right.

[–]pantsoff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A little bit? Try increasing that a lot.

[–]bberlinn 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Good job guys. If you bought the iPhone X for its security. There you have your answer. Long live Touch ID.

[–]iRichi3 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Maybe Apple sold you Glasses ID? Lol damned early days of biometrics!

[–]Mikuka_G 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Sceptical about the chances being 1 in a million, that's a very rounded number given all the permutations

[–]clumsyalex 3 points4 points  (0 children)

“The probability of a false match is different for twins and siblings that look like you as well as among children under the age of 13”

[–]shresthabijay26 0 points1 point  (0 children)

well, that one in million just becomes 1 in 1000 for relatives and you will be in contact with them most of the time.

[–]OandG 1 point2 points  (1 child)

You guys are one in a million!

[–]UsernameTakenNot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But there are 7 billion people so 7000 people would be able to unlock their iPhone?

[–]TheItalianDude12345 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The actual owner of the device, show us you unlocking it without your glasses on. The reason I’d say it does this is because, first of all you two look very similar, so if the phone comes across similar looking people I’d say it looks for other different things, like a pair of glasses to tell them apart. So when he put on the glasses it opened, anyway Apple. Oils release an update in like a week and it would be fixed, unlike android..........

[–]vamsiyuvaraj 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think they trained face ID with both their faces. ( I know that face ID supports only one face, but during that set up, half the pattern might have been filled by one and the other half by the other. This can be done for touch ID as well. During training of touch ID, you can use two fingers for one training) So I can believe this only when they show the whole process from set up.

Set up using one face and unlock it using the other please!

[–]unscot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Glasses block part of your face so the system has to guess what's behind them. Best not to wear them for training.

[–]BronzeLogic 1 point2 points  (3 children)

This is really embarrassing for Face ID technology and Apple. These two individuals are not identical twins, they're not even fraternal twins. Two brothers 5 years apart. Even a cursory glance at their face and any human should be able to tell the difference. One has a mole on his right cheek and it doesn't. One has more hair than the other.

If you took any reasonably intelligent person and showed them a picture of the two and then asked them to identify the two in real life, they should never mistake the two because of these facial differences.

[–]shapeless69 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Before you go overboard read the OPs update.

[–]Dukes_Mangola 1 point2 points  (0 children)

OP's update came two hours after this guy made his post. Was he magically supposed to know there was an update coming?

[–]eydendibiPhone 7 Plus 128GB 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's a reason why it's called Artificial Intelligence. And on a phone, for that matter. It relies on algorithms and calculations, not perception.

Face ID main points are the nose, eyes, and the mouth. They look very similar to each other and that reduces the security percentage. Read the update comment.

[–]hismerecry 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Remember you can only register one face on the device so there’s no way both of them had their face IDs on the device

[–]Pavlovs_Doug 4 points5 points  (0 children)

"Not twins." Well good god damn, pretty fuckin close. Lol

[–]AncestralSpirit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why does your TV have a giant moustache that basically blocks the view?

[–]ghostfreckle611 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Doesn’t IR not work through glass? If it doesn’t, then putting on glasses decreases the amount of actual facial data that it can use to compare faces to unlock, thus making it easier to unlock with different faces. I’d think the eyes would be where the most individuality would be...

[–]Coompa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They swapped the phone.

[–]DonQuixoteee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While setting up Face ID, one of them did the first scan and the other did the second scan.

[–]media_lush 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I actually thought they were twins... my brain is obviously bionic too!

[–]MrOverSt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do initial setup without glasses. DUH!

[–]turbocomppro 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I believe this is a strategy on Apple where people are fed up with Face ID for the X, they'll bring back Touch ID for the Xs next year and everyone will buy that instead. Remember I said it first!

[–]shapeless69 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Guys read the OPs update. He mentions exactly how it’s happening. Looks like a bug.

Don’t feed the trolls.

You know the same trolls who mock Apple saying it’s not innovative and doesn’t do anything new.

When they do come up with a new tech these trolls wait for anything negative so they can use to bash Apple and its users.

It’s clearly first gen tech and need some time to tweak and make it perfect. I’m sure Apple will investigate and push some updates if it’s some bug.

Remember people will do anything nowadays to get something viral or clicks. Now give it some time before all the “publications” run clickbait articles on this.

I understand that if it’s a bug it has major security concerns and I have confidence Apple will find a solution. Stop moaning and give them a chance.

[–]thedonza 0 points1 point  (0 children)

FaceGate

[–]FrozenJackal 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How is no one calling bs on this, the iPhone goes out of frame many times during the video and even switches hands when they bring it back into frame. Am I the only one that watched the video before commenting?

[–]aztecdude 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unfortunately we have Face ID because Apple wasn’t able to figure out how to integrate Touch ID into the phone’s screen. Touch ID is the faster solution.

[–]Vortico 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Faces and fingerprints are usernames, not passwords. http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2013/10/fingerprints-are-user-names-not.html

[–]auci[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You look the same (except the hair)

[–]Treekiller 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Spooooooman

[–]_prodex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Has anyone considered the fact you can just use a picture of the person to unlock their phone? You don't need to overcomplicate it.

[–]Hardwareimpaired [score hidden]  (0 children)

Racist much? According to Apple, all you people look alike. Maybe they need just a touch of diversity in their engineering tea ,

[–]KnutheniPhone 6S Plus 64GB -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

unfortunately the phone is not shown the whole time. he COULD have swapped it after he puts on his glasses... Just saying :o

[–]Un-trollableiPhone 7 128GB 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Denial. Can’t believe you’re trying to excuse failure just because it’s Apple. They do NOT get a pass after 1000+ dollars.

[–]RedditHoss 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can you record it again, keeping the phone on-camera the entire time?

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