Skip to main content Paul says very clearly that God is the Potter and we are the clay. He even says who are we the clay to argue with the Potter who molds us. How does this not destroy the free will argument? : r/AskAChristian

Paul says very clearly that God is the Potter and we are the clay. He even says who are we the clay to argue with the Potter who molds us. How does this not destroy the free will argument?

I'm down with being made any way God chooses. This takes the onus off me to worry about anything. I don't even need to judge myself. I'm just made the way God wants me.

Paul is saying we dont have free will here.

Do you disagree and if so why?

Two additional verses are needed for context on Romans. When Paul is speaking of clay in Romans 9 , he is directly referencing Jeremiah 18 , and I quote.

The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying; “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” “Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter, so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!” “The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.”

Note, the clay is able to choose its fate though repentance.

If this is not clear enough, Paul is wise enough to clarify this in 2 Timothy 2:20-21 .

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

Paul makes it clear in verse 6 that he is addressing the concept of Gods covenant with the Jewish people. Context makes it apparent that he isn’t addressing individual free will in the following verses - including the ones you refer to.

I guess it depends on how you are using the word free will, there are multiple definitions. If we are talking about libertarian free will (which is the more prominent view of freewill in Christianity) then I would agree. I am a compatibilist,

I think it is important to maintain God's sovereign choosing in molding because of verses like Romans 9, but it is also important to maintain human choice to the degree to which we may be held accountable to our actions. We even see these things happen simultaneously in Scripture (Gen 50:20 & Isaiah 10)

Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.

That's from the bible too. Everything I do has already been approved. It's all known, all approved, all accounted for. No need to judge myself or worry about a thing.

Why should I judge myself? You aren't even allowed to testify against yourself in a human court.

Paul is saying we dont have free will here.

When I read Romans 9, I don't see any verse where Paul is stating or implying that you don't have free will.


P.S. Unlike some of the other responders, I'm non-Calvinist.

So what do you suppose this free will is for and how does it fit into the idea of salvation by grace or God giving disciples to Jesus?

How does this not destroy the free will argument?

Because it's a metaphor? (Clearly... We are not literally the material known as clay)

But the metaphor must hold or its useless.

Are we molded or not? Is Paul wrong when he tells us we have no right to argue back with the way God has made us?

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What Paul was talking about is basically the conclusion of the story of Jonah. The point is that God is the authority over creation. We can't argue with God and win. We see it all the time, people arguing about how God is wrong. God can't be wrong, he is the author of life. That doesn't mean you don't have the power to make your own choices, it just means God has the authority to judge you for whether you are doing what you were designed for.

What is the free will argument?