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all 71 comments

[–]Public_Wallaby_9886 66 points67 points  (9 children)

Same thing happened to Man in the high castle.

Started out pretty good and became worse and worse with every season. During WW2 Germany dropped nukes on Moscow and Washington and split the world with Japan, occupying USA from two sides, leaving the Rocky mountains between them as a neutral zone. However the peace between them is fragile, and the Japanese fear, after the death of Hitler, the technologically superior Germany will attack them.

For me the low point was when the black Californian communists (backed by communist Chinese somehow through the Japanese controlled Pacific ocean) were the only power in the whole US to stand up against the Japanese and German occupiers...

[–]lyra833GET THE BOARD OUT, I GOT BINGO! ~ Mod 63 points64 points  (6 children)

So, some stories about Man in the High Castle, because I know a lot of people who worked on it and may have even been involved for a short bit.

It was literally the first show ever green lit by Amazon Prime Video. At the time, no one at Amazon knew SHIT about TV or film production. The only show that was doing numbers on what was then Amazon Streaming Video Now™ was Transparent, a knockoff of Modern Family. Bezos just wanted "our own game of thrones", so the team at Prime Video tried to replicate the formula by holding an open competition. Submit a script and an idea, and they'd give you $10,000 (that is not a lot) to make two episodes. The top 5 shows would go on the service and viewer metrics would decide who got the budget.

High Castle's producer (Frank Spotnitz) was a wizard at stretching money. He specifically looked for a cult classic in the public domain, then got Phillip Dick's daughter to work on the show basically for free, then got Ridley Scott (yes, that Ridley Scott) to help consult on production by lying and telling him the show had already won the contest. The actors were similarly sourced; Luke Kleintank (Joe Blake) had been seriously undervalued in his roles on stuff like Pretty Little Liars and so was eager to do it for cheap, especially since he was billed as the lead. The other actors were sourced similarly well. Rufus Sewell (incomparable as Obergruppenführer Smith) was literally sourced from British theater, which was insane to watch because he delivered all those performances on the first take. People couldn't believe it; he'd perform flawlessly over and over and over again while other people had to retry. The other Nazis were also sourced from the stage and paid less than TV actors, while many of the Japanese actors were pulled direct from NHK TV dramas, which meant lower salaries and shorter filming times. Alexa Davalos (Juliana Crane) was sourced directly from Clash of the Titans lmao. It was an insanely fun team of actors.

The VFX and historical accuracy teams were, I shit you not, largely sourced from the HOI4 forums. Spotnitz realized there was a community of nerds who did this shit for free and basically put out an open call. The show ended up with the most cracked WW2 autists ever and they basically did the work for free. The costumes were made on a commercial embroidery machine and some sewing machines and the VFX work was entirely done in Blender. The initial releases of the first two episodes (before they were fully brought on) had some EMBARRASSING mistakes (the SF airport was called "HIROHITO INTERNATIONAL", stuff like that) and were actually redacted a few months later. Sneaky sneaky!

Upon release, the first two episodes smashed everything Amazon had hoped for and it wasn't even a contest. Amazon threw checks at High Castle with basically no oversight and oh boy did that team of autists have fun. The marketing budget was spent in truly unhinged ways; covering subway cars in NYC with swastikas, putting up posters of Lady Liberty throwing up a Roman in Times Square, putting big ads in Shinjuku Station that said "WHAT IF WE'D PULLED IT OFF?" just the most insane atmosphere ever. There was a joke on the team that someone may be outed as a neo-Nazi or something. Regardless, the money was spent well, and we got two seasons of what may have been some of the best TV ever. They built custom Nazi mid-century modern furniture and they literally added a 10 minute Dr. Strangelove reference to the season 2 finale just because they could, and the guy they brought in to play the global Wehrmacht head actually evolved the Prussian military accent by two decades to approximate how it would have sounded in 1962. Very cool. The whole show was like that.

Anyhow, apparently the most hyped show in streaming history starting Season 2 with an idyllic picture of a perfect Nazi high school and ending with the most beloved character getting a full on Iron Guard salute in Berlin pissed off a few highly influential people because about 2 days after Season 2 dropped Amazon got some calls from, I shit you not, the ADL, who literally demanded that they be put in charge of the show. After a furious back and forth between Spotnitz and Amazon, the ADL was given control over hiring positions, the autists were mostly fired, and the entire producing staff was filled with Bay Area communists and Jewish "sensitivity consultants". That's why you hated the last two seasons; it was literally a different show. I think most of the actors quit too because the working environment went to absolute shit. What's ironic is that the HOI4 autists did a much better job authentically representing Jewish culture under the Nazi jackboot than an entire room full of the sensitivity consultants, who demanded two episodes entirely dedicated to, not shitting you, "Frank Frink's Bar Mitzvah". The show went to absolute shit in ratings, which I'm sure the ADL was fine with and had to resort to rage-baiting by letting random activists destroy the props and costumes on camera.

Sorry for the lengthy rant, but it was sad watching Greenblatt pick up the phone and just kill what may have been the best show ever released on streaming. I can share more stories if you want, but my advice to anyone watching Man In The High Castle is to stop after Season 2. Trust me. There's nothing beyond that. Not a place of honor, etc.

[–]CuTTyFL4M 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Well that's definitely interesting to read. You don't even need to check the early life paragraph.

[–]Public_Wallaby_9886 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Thank you!

[–]bigntazt 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is incredible. Thank you for sharing. I always knew something felt off after season 2. MITHC will always be a special show.

[–]Alarming-Ad1100 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Color me not surprised

[–]Tall_Irish_Guy [score hidden]  (0 children)

That was really interesting to read and I'd love to hear more of similar stories. Sucks but it's always the same people twisting and ruining everything.

[–]Lopsided-Survey8188 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Sad to hear. I absolutely love PKD's books including High Castle for their nuances. Most of the time sensitivity consultants/activists just ruin message they're supposed to advocate for, and this keeps happening to the point my brain's kinda grown to emotionally distance myself a bit every time I come across sensational narratives just to get a clearer view of things

[–]Unhappy_Analysis_906 27 points28 points  (1 child)

Ignoring the fact that at the time, China was absolutely devastated and required US help to stabilize, and wouldn't fall to communist for another decade after the war, after which it went through horrific perils due to communism and The Great Leap Forward

[–]lyra833GET THE BOARD OUT, I GOT BINGO! ~ Mod 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Magic post-S2 asspulls aside, China was obviously the Empire's Vietnam in both our timeline and high castle world. You already see the JPS starting to be spun off as an independent protectorate/dominion in-show despite supplying Japan with key resources and having abundant human capital, it's BADLY underdeveloped relative to Nazi America (or even 1962 Japan in our timeline) and the internal structure of the Empire is pretty clearly a mess from holding on to all of these restive territories.

If the show had been allowed to actually do seasons 3-5 instead of them being replaced with an ADL-backed black power fantasy, I imagine the big geopolitical plot point would have been Japan's white dominions (JPS, Alaska, Australia, New Zealand, maybe even HK/Weihai/Macau) demanding home rule with Tokyo torn between the obvious wins for stability and economy and giving more autonomy to their white subjects in a world where your Cold War opposition are literally white supremacists.

There was also gonna be a very interesting subplot in Azad-Hind controlled India, which didn't happen.

[–]KeekuBrigabroo 63 points64 points  (4 children)

Saw Seth Rogen's name on it, refuses to watch since Season 1. Decision has paid off well.

I was doing yard work and listened to a YouTuber talking about the shows decline. He counted the number of times people blackmailed each other to resolve plotlines and it's an average of more than once per episode.

[–]jimihenderson 19 points20 points  (2 children)

Even from the beginning it suffered from the "no actual stakes" issue that other shows like Ozark that started with promise suffered from. They wanted to have all their big epic moments but without any of the repercussions and changes in the story that would result. Crazy things that should overwhelmingly change all of the character dynamics happen regularly, then they just write their way out of it and go back to business as usual. Eventually you realize there are no actual stakes, no matter what happens, things will just keep on as they were by the next episode.

[–]Spiritual_Orange_737 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I would have probably enjoyed it more if it went the way of Supernatural, 5 seasons of "how do we take on this supe of the week?" Followed by some story plots that really don't matter.

[–]jimihenderson 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I have a special heart in my heart for shows that know what they are and lean into it. Supernatural definitely lost me at some point, but it never really lost itself. Sam and Dean are punching god in the face now, huh? Sure

[–]Striking-Drawers 22 points23 points  (2 children)

Thing is, Kripke publicly crashed out at people liking Homelander after season 1 and 2. He was mad that his Trump avatar wasn't outright hated. What the people saw? An unlikable flawed character that had a horrible upbringing and people felt a bit bad for his evil ass. People saw a well written and complicated character.

That's why there's such a big change after season 2.

[–]RileyTaker 9 points10 points  (0 children)

People saw a well written and complicated character.

And modern writers don't realize that at the end of the day, that's what people want. They don't want self-inserts. They want characters that they can actually give a shit about.

[–]katsuya_kaiba [score hidden]  (0 children)

Kripke was pissed people liked characters who are grey, so he decided to make all his characters back and white, no nuance or complexity for his show.

[–]TheGhostlyConsole07 15 points16 points  (1 child)

The moment they did the story where the shop worker got radicalized into shooting a foreigner because of a right wing radio show, I knew where this thing was headed.

You can literally see Eric Kripke descending into parody level Trump Derangement Syndrome as each season goes on. It was always lefty crap, but it 100% got worse over time.

[–]cerberus8700 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yeah I dropped it after that season and never looked back.

[–]VampireHunterAlex 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Because anymore it's Marxist dickheads that are handed the reigns to these multi-million dollar projects. Hopefully it'll work itself out eventually: They'll run out of other peoples money.

[–]lyra833GET THE BOARD OUT, I GOT BINGO! ~ Mod 39 points40 points  (6 children)

At the start, it was actually great. It felt like a fresh, dark parody of “what if superheroes were real”.

bro episode 2 of season 1 had a genocidal hate rant against white Christians; it's literally always been raw uncut woke id

I enjoy it for that reason, but the levels of self-denial required to imagine it was ever anything other than cartoonish sadistic prog fantasies must be astronomical.

[–]ColumbusJewBlackets 9 points10 points  (1 child)

It also had a Muslim supervillain whose superpower was making himself explode…

[–]Kitsui38 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Most realistic part of the series

[–]_The_Honored_One_[S] 12 points13 points  (3 children)

There was more nuance in season 1

[–]Striking-Drawers 13 points14 points  (1 child)

It was a more balanced in 1&2, but it was always uneven.

[–]make_reddit_great [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yes. I don't mind if a show has a left-wing sensibility so long as it's still good art and they don't take you out of it with intrusive grandstanding and polemics. Seasons 1 and 2 were good. Season 3 was very on the nose so I gave up on it then and never checked out season 4.

[–]lyra833GET THE BOARD OUT, I GOT BINGO! ~ Mod 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Again, the villain in S1E2 was Ezekiel. There was zero nuance aside from that you imagined yourself.

[–]lifebeginsat9pm 21 points22 points  (1 child)

What really stood out to me is the scene where a mob of Starlighters were fighting a mob of Hometeamers (s4 I think), every shot of the Hometeamers was brutal violence while every shot of Starlighters was as victims or trying to help each other. Even though both mobs were being violent. It was so surreal, like the showrunners themselves were doing in-universe propaganda.

Another really weird aspect of this show, that some others have pointed out, every villain has some unconventional kink, while every hero is into “normal” sex supposedly. It’s like they’re trying to paint anything other than vanilla sex as signs of moral degeneracy.

[–]Spiritual_Orange_737 15 points16 points  (2 children)

Honestly what annoys me more is The Boys or Invincible audience reaction and, "the comics this is inspired by were too young, edgy and crass; its made to be more adult now..."

Followed by a dozen swears in a given scene, an elite rape party or bestiality joke, and a cat-based super hero shitting in a litter box and coughing up hairballs.

[–]katsuya_kaiba [score hidden]  (0 children)

"the comics this is inspired by were too young, edgy and crass; its made to be more adult now..."

Said by assholes who never read the comics and just saw a handful of pictures of Ennis' usual shock pages that take advantage of the page turn.

They never see the pages where Starlight ambushes Hughie, begging him not to be mean to her after horrible number of days of people being cruel to her, where he replies "Why would I ever want to do that?" which makes her smile.

Or Butcher telling Hughie he always wanted a little brother.

Or Frenchie talking Female down from butchering somebody from the mob.

Or Butcher threatening to kill a woman and her kids if she ever did anything to hurt his people, because he cares about them.

But sure, the show where they had a guy turn into a giant rock because he couldn't quit gooning and Hughie apologizing to Starlight for being raped by a shapeshifter is the 'adult' version.

[–]BootlegFunko 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I've said it before, but I think the real reason people find The Boys appealing is because it perfectly reflects modern performative culture, so they had to make it partisian so people wouldn't notice they (the showrunners) are the gatekeepers of culture the show is criticizing.

[–]lyra833GET THE BOARD OUT, I GOT BINGO! ~ Mod 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I'm aware that this may be a pet issue for me personally, but holy shit Karen Fukuhara should demand damage payments from the writers' room.

[–]yeahsurewhateverokay 5 points6 points  (1 child)

It doesn’t help that Seth Roger is involved. He loves to subvert franchises such as TMNT. The fact that Stormfront was gender bent and turned into a PC safe edgy version of the character says all you need to know.

[–]DwavenhobbleKhazad-dûm is my Side Crib [score hidden]  (0 children)

And Sony Pictures..............

[–]kaytin911 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The entire point of it was wokeness mate.

[–]katsuya_kaiba 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Homelander is basically turned into a caricature of Donald Trump

Because that worked so well for Marvel.

[–]Unhappy-Bullfrog5597 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Been shit for years

[–]Batbuckleyourpants 9 points10 points  (2 children)

By season 3 most of the writers and producers had already left. Eric Kripke also decided to make it more political, do the ones to replace them are typical Trump derangement syndrome hacks.

[–]Striking-Drawers 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That true? I didn't know that much of the creatives had left. I know about Kripke's TDS and public crashouts. I'm guessing those that quit didn't agree with him.

The show always dug more into the right than the left, but it wasn't full on TDS.

This all makes sense. I watched season 3 before quitting. All the writing seemed way more on the nose.

[–]DwavenhobbleKhazad-dûm is my Side Crib 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also a certain normally video game linked company took over more control of the show allegedly.

You ever notice it's made by Sony for Amazon?

[–]Fevet0 8 points9 points  (6 children)

My sole incentive to watch this show is to see Homelander's fate while the story is being wrapped up. 

[–]HuntrrzReject ALL narratives 26 points27 points  (2 children)

I'm happy to wait for a 5-minute clip on YouTube.

[–]Mr__Castle_ 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Read the comics. 

[–]katsuya_kaiba 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Except the comics will have a different death because one person in the comic isn't the same as the one in the show.

[–]Fevet0 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The show is vastly different, they pretty much revamped the story

[–]MrMegaPhoenix 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I just hope homelander wins cos he wants to show us how bad the world is if conservatives rule the world

But really it’s just Anthony starr being awesome and badass

[–]Desperate_Put_4568 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I feel sorry for anyone who watches this. There's much better content out there.

[–]QuiverDance97 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"Fresh, dark parody"

It was edgy just for the sake of being edgy from the beginning...

The scene with the girl sitting on the man's face was the dumbest thing I've ever seen...

[–]SpectreAmazing [score hidden]  (0 children)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4N7lYQnXSI

Sorry, but you have yourself to blame when they already got something like this in the earlier seasons.

[–]EwMelanin 7 points8 points  (1 child)

even r/fourthwavewomen feminists disagree with current form of feminism

[–]TattedGuyser 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That sub is wild. It's just man hating through and through

[–]TheMinorityDeport 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Unsurprising. The Boys was always stupid because it's deconstruction. "Hurr durr what if good guy superheroes but evil." Boring.

Deconstruction is necessarily liberal, and we've been deconstructing cultural things that historically were portrayed as good for too long. Superheroes are good and villains are bad.

[–]DwavenhobbleKhazad-dûm is my Side Crib [score hidden]  (0 children)

The thing I think people don't realise is if you just deconstruct with just the plan to go "and this is all bad" then all you have left is pieces.

Farscape is a deconstruction of Star Trek ideals, one of the bigger bits of them doing this is the crew run into a civilisation on a Tomb world and it's all teenagers / at most people in their Mid 20s no-one older because they find they're basically living in a toxic environment that's killing them and the food they eat and stuff they drink is part of it. They try to solve it and reveal the toxic stuff to them and basically the population reject it because it's always been their way of life for generations even though some older people get found who somehow survived by going deeper into the cave system they live in. The crew basically have to get "screw it we tried" and leave the society to it's stagnation never developing or growing because they culture and society is based round basically teenagers / 20 somethings getting drunk, partying and doing stupid test of courage / worthiness they've created which keeps also killing some of them and just creating the food and brewing the alcohol to repeat the partying and getting drunk.

The thing is Farscape also shows why despite being flawed the Star Trek ideals are ones to push for and ultimately good and not something to reject.

[–]RileyTaker 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Unsurprising. The Boys was always stupid because it's deconstruction. "Hurr durr what if good guy superheroes but evil." Boring.

I completely agree, which was why I never got into the comic, and it took me a long time to get into the show.

Deconstruction is like satire, in that there is a very fine line when comes to doing it properly. It takes a special talent to be able to do it in a way that's actually clever, and Seth Rogen has never been clever.

[–]Gantolandon [score hidden]  (0 children)

There are good deconstructions. Worm (the webnovel) is a successful example when it comes to the superhero genre.

[–]Afghan_Whig 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Season 1 was absolutely phenomenal.

Season 2 I knew it was in trouble. 

Season 3 I had a hard time finishing. Never looked back after that. 

[–]Equivalent-Rope-5119 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Season 1 is good. Ive watched it twice and never felt the need to watch any more. 

[–]theryanlilo [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yeah, they turned it into Marxist slop.

[–]matthew_laneMr. Misogytransiphobe, Sexigrade and Fahrenhot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, it's pretty tedious now. Thank goodness this is the last season.

[–]Mikester345 [score hidden]  (0 children)

The only thing in season 5 I genuinely didn’t like so far was the opening. They zoom in on a guy at a homelander rally who looks like Charlie Kirk wearing a MAGA hat. Just felt tasteless.

[–]No_Heron7011 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Don’t know how Kripke went from the first 5 seasons of supernatural to this slop. Someone else must have been writing for him