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[–]Trenzalore11th 2493 points2494 points  (95 children)

I'm glad Germany wasn't included here. Would have required a lot of scrolling.

[–]IncidentOk853 1065 points1066 points  (90 children)

A foreign (Austrian) absolute monarch -> surprise Napoleon -> Prussian absolute monarch -> republic -> whatever the fuck the Nazis called their system of government -> half forced into democracy, other half forced into communism —> democracy!

[–]metatalksOversimplified is my history teacher 381 points382 points  (72 children)

its gonna get more complicated when the AfD wins

[–]FalconRelevantSenātus Populusque Rōmānus 224 points225 points  (25 children)

1000 years of HRE clusterfuck, sometimes I wonder if German culture has just become incompatible with any form of government too far from feudalism.

[–]SpaceSlothLaurence 51 points52 points  (20 children)

Serious question, where would you draw the line between Germany (modern) and Germanic peoples (the separate states that would form the German empire after the franco-prussian war)?

Would there be a line to draw at all?

[–]Byter128 44 points45 points  (1 child)

I wouldn't draw a line because the concept of one German people and the concept of German peoples co-existed and remain to co-exist, though you can see a clear shift towards "a german people" winning more and more ground over "german peoples" since at least the begin of the first world war

[–]FalconRelevantSenātus Populusque Rōmānus 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Probably not. Regions in the Federal Republic, especially in places like Bavaria still retain distinct regional character.

[–]Gerry-Mandarin 11 points12 points  (11 children)

That line is the crux of the Sonderweg Thesis.

Which is basically a historiographical perspective that highlights the unique evolution of the German people, which ultimately culminated in the Nazi state and the Holocaust.

How the Nazis were not the same sort of fascism or totalitarianism we saw in Spain, Italy, Russia, Japan etc - but a unique, purely German, phenomenon.

Some historians take it as far back as the Reformation. But it is generally regarded to start, at the latest, with the fall of the Holy Roman Empire into several smaller states.

[–]SpaceSlothLaurence 9 points10 points  (8 children)

That's extremely interesting I'll have to check that out, I've always known that the whole Nazi regime was weird even to other Fascists at the time. I always assumed it was something that Hitler and Görring did their best to hide from the mainstream.

I can see Martin Luther's bitch ass being responsible for all of this. 99 theses but a jew ain't one smdh.

ETA: it's interesting to consider the quote on the wiki page, "... Germany did not, according to the now prevailing opinion, differ from the great European nations to an extent that would justify speaking of a 'uniwue German path'. And in any case, no country on earth took what can be described as the 'normal path'"

Truly what would be the "normal route" to democracy? Could one ever consider any path to democracy from any form of authoritarianism normal? Cool philosophical topic I hadn't considered beforehand.

[–]BlaBlub85 2 points3 points  (1 child)

If we are going by a strictly quantative approach the "normal" way to democracy would be to fight or annoy the British long enough they dont consider it worth the trouble anymore and grant you independence

[–]Areign 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Revolution by democratic group?

[–]fishanddipflip 1 point2 points  (1 child)

The meaning of the word german has changed after the second reich. I am swiss, and before the unification of germany, i would have been german too, same as the dutch or austrians. But if you go to an Austrian or swiss today and tell them they are german, they won't be amused.

So in conclusion, the modern germany and the modern meaning of the word german changed with unification.

[–]ChristianLW3 42 points43 points  (18 children)

Glad to see someone else mentioning them

With nearly all eyes on the US, people don’t notice the AFD has been gaining support

[–]ButterdPoopr 15 points16 points  (2 children)

Funny. I remember about 8 years ago or so, it had small support. And people on Reddit were like ‘they will never be able to reach the momentum for Germany’ or some shit like that. Look at them now

[–]SerHodorTheThrallJohn Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 14 points15 points  (1 child)

Look at them now

At the same 10-20% support they all other major far-right Euroskeptic party have held since the beginning of time?

The large European nations have many parties so the RWNJs can't hold the conservatives hostage. Even in somewhere like Italy, the Center-Right is still in charge, even if Salvini is Transportation secretary.

[–]My_18th_Account 2 points3 points  (0 children)

you and your data and facts and shit.

[–]metatalksOversimplified is my history teacher 10 points11 points  (0 children)

“Democracy dies in the shadows”

[–]Snudget 1 point2 points  (10 children)

I hope it doesn't turn into a fight between them and other parties. It is important that we have variety in parties and not just two like the US. But I fear that those people who vote AfD don't feel listened to by other parties and people who see through the lies of the AfD voting for big parties to have any chance. In my opinion the AfD should be forbidden on accord of being right-extremist before it is to late

[–]WeedAlmighty 3 points4 points  (3 children)

. In my opinion the AfD should be forbidden on accord of being right-extremist before it is to late

So you're saying you don't want democracy? Why have elections at all if you're just going to ban the ones you don't like?

If the AFD got into power and started banning the parties you liked you would be calling them fascist, think about that for a minute.

[–]yeah-I-know-that 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think they are scared that history will repeat itself and some right wing party will come and consolidate all power like the NSDAP did in 1933. Ofc if you ask those people how the NSDAP managed to do that they will draw a blank because they likely don't even know.

The German constitution back then was different and allowed for things that wouldn't be possible in Germany today.

[–]7-1_Enjoyer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That will be bad faith idiocracy.

[–]Daniel_Potter 1 point2 points  (0 children)

i think democracy has been replaced by populism

This is from Populism: A Very Short Introduction. In the book, they have the people, the elite and the general will.

More concretely, we define Populism as a thin-centered ideology that considers society to be ultimately separated into two homogeneous and antagonistic camps, “the pure people” versus “the corrupt elite,” and which argues that politics should be an expression of the volonté générale (general will) of the people.

Unlike “thick-centered” or “full” ideologies (e.g., fascism, liberalism, socialism), thin-centered ideologies such as populism have a restricted morphology, which necessarily appears attached to and sometimes is even assimilated into—other ideologies. In fact, populism almost always appears attached to other ideological elements, which are crucial for the promotion of political projects that are appealing to a broader public. Consequently, by itself populism can offer neither complex nor comprehensive answers to the political questions that modern societies generate.

In many cases populists will combine different interpretations of the elite and the people, i.e., class, ethnicity, and morality. For example, contemporary American right-wing populists such as Sarah Palin and the Tea Party describe the elite as latte-drinking and Volvo-driving East Coast liberals; contrasting this, implicitly, to the real/common/native people who drink regular coffee, drive American-made cars, and live in Middle America (the heartland).

Pauline Hanson, leader of the right-wing populist One Nation party, would juxtapose the true people of rural Australia, proud of their British settler heritage, to the intellectual urban elite, who “want to turn this country upside down by giving Australia back to the Aborigines.”

For example, xenophobic populists in Europe often define the people in ethnic terms, excluding “aliens” (i.e., immigrants and minorities), but they do not argue that the elite are part of another ethnic group. They do argue, however, that the elite favors the interests of the immigrants over those of the native people.

For the anti-communist populists “the people” were the common and patriotic (“real”) Americans from the heartland, whereas “the elite” lived in the coastal areas, notably the Northeast, and covertly or overtly supported “un-American” socialist ideas. Linking populism to producerism, in which the pure people are squeezed between a corrupt elite above them and a racialized underclass below them, they accused the elite of mooching off the hard work of the people and of “redistributing” their wealth to the non-white underclass to stay in power.

While not a populist at heart, Nixon popularized the term “silent majority” as a reference to the majority of the (real) American people figuratively and literally silenced by the (liberal) elite.

In 1968 former Democratic governor George C. Wallace of Alabama ran as the candidate of the American Independent Party (AIP), winning almost 10 million votes, or 13.5 percent of those cast. Running essentially a single-issue campaign in defense of segregation, in which his producerist populism targeted both the African American poor below and the anti-segregationist white elites above, Wallace carried five states in the South.

In 1992 Texas billionaire Ross Perot would do even better, winning almost 20 million votes, 18.9 percent of the ballots cast. His “United We Stand, America” campaign combined a broad range of right-wing concerns and issues, such as the budget deficit and gun control, with moderate producerism and strong populism. Using folksy language to pit the pure heartland against the corrupt East Coast, Perot promised the (real) American people that he would “clean out the barn” in Washington.

While the main “enemy within” of right-wing populists has changed somewhat through time—for instance, the communists in the 1950s were replaced by the civil rights movement in the 1960s and the “activist judges” in the 1970s—the main socioeconomic and, even more important, sociocultural grievances have remained remarkably constant: “our way of life” is attacked by the “liberal elite” who use an oppressive (federal) state and a far too expensive and expansive welfare state to stifle the initiative and values of the people while providing “special privileges” to non-deserving minorities.

In contrast, the depiction of “the elite” has changed somewhat. While big business and politicians from the Northeast are still central to the populist discourse, an alleged cultural elite has become more prominent. In essence, this cultural “liberal elite” works through (higher) education, particularly the Ivy League universities, where they “pervert” the bureaucrats, judges, and politicians of the future with “un-American” ideas.

This is the why the right is on the rise right now. They all use the same playbook, same rhetoric. If they don't use it, they don't even get on the ballot, hence moderate politicians get pushed aside. And democracy has no failsafes to prevent that.

Also, this can be applied even outside of politics. Like, take incels, andrew tate and the like. They are the people, and the women are the elite, particularly liberal women/feminists.

[–]PadishaEmperor 38 points39 points  (4 children)

Austrian wasn’t foreign and the Prussian monarchy was from absolute.

[–]Dreadgoat 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Austrian wasn’t foreign

larry_david.gif

this is why it would require a lot of scrolling. A big question that has no clear answer: When was Germany?

[–]Ok_Ruin4016 17 points18 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure the Austrian absolute monarch should be considered foreign tbh since at that time Austria was just as German as Prussia or Bavaria or any of the other pre-unification German states were.

[–]Background_Bee_713 26 points27 points  (0 children)

Missed opportunity to include a second (Austrian)

[–]HaLordLeSenātus Populusque Rōmānus 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The german empire wasn't an absolute monarchy. But to balance that, you forgot whatever 1848 in germany was

[–]TheMonocleRogue 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And to think democracy was achieved due to a slip-up during a live broadcast.

[–]Low-HangingFruit 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Koenigsburg is still stuck in Russia.

[–]Noriaki_Kakyoin_OwO 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Maybe someday it’ll return under the rightful Polish rule as a vassal

Which will then be gifted to the Czech Republic

[–]Powerful-Speed4149 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Being German, I was a bit afraid

[–]0ut0fBoundsException 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Germany is symptom of the sick modern mind. There’s no such thing

don’t get me started on “Italy”

[–]Manetho77 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Belgium too.

[–]szopatoszamuraj 1029 points1030 points  (101 children)

Tbf, out of all of them, ireland tried democracy the latest. The irish had a lot of examples to base their work on

[–]IllGift924 576 points577 points  (23 children)

Yeah it's not really a fair comparison. We won our independence from a democratic nation, and we already had a strong democratic tradition and ideology

[–]GrumbusWumbus 162 points163 points  (6 children)

This really seems to be the biggest factor. Ireland didn't have a revolution that overthrew every government institution and was forced to build from the ground up. It had a war of independence and was able to inherit the democratic governmental institutions put in place by the british and change them slowly. The United States war of independence was similar.

Haiti was a slave colony built for exploitation. There was nothing the French put in place worth saving, and the French holding onto power and refusing reform so stubbornly meant that the country was wrecked by war and had no government left to hold anything together.

When a country becomes completely chaotic and the original government was overthrown by a loose coalition of conflicting ideals, it's not surprising that those same groups would be willing to continue fighting afterwards. It's also not surprising that the government that tends to hold power at the end is the one that's most willing to kill and imprison dissenters before they can build enough support to threaten them.

[–]PirateKingOmega 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The only thing Haiti had that was of value were the plantations. During the revolution leaders actually tried to keep them as they were practically the only thing keeping the island profitable/capable of importing vital supplies. This failed disastrously as you leaders attempted to have their cake and eat it too.

[–]IZZY33n 4 points5 points  (1 child)

don't forget the reparations haiti had to pay France for "destroying their property"(freeing the slaves) and finished in like the 60s

[–]certainlynotdio 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dude what the fuck, I had no idea something like this took place

[–]IllGift924 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Great comment

[–]Dominarion 86 points87 points  (9 children)

Woop there buddy. You were an integral part to the difficult evolution of Britain into a democracy! Without the Irish constantly bugging the English and Scots for equality of rights, freedom of Religion and the right to vote (also dying of hunger and deeply humiliating Britain in the process), Great Britain would have stayed an Aristocratic dystopia far longer than it did.

[–]IllGift924 42 points43 points  (3 children)

Of course, I'm not denying that. That's why we already had a strong democratic tradition and ideology. Depite English oppression, Irish people had been engaging in democracy for a long time prior to independence

[–]Super-Cynical 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Thank Daniel O'Connell for that

[–]IllGift924 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Thank you Daniel O'Connell. Keep winning in heaven! You're an angel now

[–]Drunkgummybear1 4 points5 points  (0 children)

*British oppression, to be accurate. Otherwise you’re leaving out a fair chunk of others involved.

[–]board3659And then I told them I'm Jesus's brother 3 points4 points  (3 children)

the UK was already had significant traditions associated with parliamentarianism and reducing the crowns authority. There probably was some impact and it was one of the dominos that made imperialism less popular amongst the public but not the extent your framing it

[–]TiberiusTheFish 7 points8 points  (0 children)

We became independent at a time when democracy was going out of fashion in much of Europe. The trend was very much towards authoritarianism and military dictatorship. The choice seemed to be Bolshevism or dictatorship. Bolshevism was never likely in Ireland, but democracy was not a given. It's a pretty remarkable achievement that Ireland didn't head that way.

[–]Forward-Cat6083 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, even America got most of its democratic ideas from England. They just got rid of the monarch.

[–]TheMaskedHamster 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's... that's the point.

[–]ETsUncle 84 points85 points  (26 children)

They also, quite literally, had a lot of troubles getting there

[–]BusOrigami 62 points63 points  (13 children)

I appreciate the play on words, but the troubles were quite a bit later . . .

[–]Dominarion 8 points9 points  (3 children)

De facto, maybe, but de jure, Ireland was troubled since it was conquered by the Tudors.

[–]xaranetic 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Troubled since the vikings

[–]ETsUncle 33 points34 points  (2 children)

Dang, my joke bombed

[–]Don_Speekingleesh 1 point2 points  (2 children)

The pogroms against Irish people in the new Northern Ireland were also known as The Troubles too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles_in_Ulster_%281920%E2%80%931922%29?wprov=sfla1

[–]BusOrigami 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I was not aware of that, thank you - you learn something new everyday!

[–]Bartellomio 21 points22 points  (9 children)

Ireland was founded and established long before the Troubles happened. It definitely wasn't a politically smooth process but it also wasn't founded by the kinds of violent revolutions or overthrows that lead to flawed states. Ireland was, despite all obstacles, part of a stable democracy (though it did not have complete suffrage) before it became independent, which set it up to be a democracy afterward.

[–]Dominarion 3 points4 points  (8 children)

And, despite the British dissing the Irish for centuries, telling the world they were lazy, brutish and ignorant, incapable of self-governance: the Republic of Ireland is one of the most productive nations of the planet, a very stable democracy and very well governed country. To boot, Ireland got a higher GDP per capita and life expectancy than the UK.

[–]elykl12 9 points10 points  (2 children)

Ireland started with women’s suffrage and had the first women cabinet minister in Europe with Labour Minister Constance Markievicz in the first government in 1922

It’d be like California splitting off from the U.S. and celebrating its struggle towards democracy

[–]Complete-Day-8971 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The first part is irrelevant since Britian was a colonial power that controlled Ireland as a colony, they wete oppressive and cruel

[–]Wgh555 8 points9 points  (7 children)

It did have democratic representation in Westminster since it was integrated into the UK in 1801. Previously was treated entirely as a colony with no Parliament representation. Only really aristocrats/landowners could vote at that time though, which was the same for most contemporary democracies.

[–]SmellsLikeHoboSpirit 1 point2 points  (6 children)

It was Irish Catholics that needed to be wealthy property owners to vote in 1801, the Anglo Irish Protestant had that right regardless. Not the same for most contemporary democracies.

[–]Dominarion 11 points12 points  (9 children)

😑 they would have tried way earlier if it wasn't of their nasty neighbors.

[–]Local-Echo-5613 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Why is this being downvoted? You’re right!

[–]DrHolmes52 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Maybe a little too smooth (that whole war/civil war thing) but having a number of examples helped.

[–]BenderRodriguez14 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There's also some serious cropping going on, if you could expand the left side of the Ireland roadmap. 

[–]i-eat-solder 293 points294 points  (43 children)

Britain is my favourite example of a democracy building even if they're not a republic per se. King does an oopsie and ends up in an unfortunate position -> people demand more rights or else. Rinse, repeat.

[–]MissionLet7301 100 points101 points  (8 children)

Fight a civil war to get rid of the monarchy

Succeed

Everybody hates the person in charge afterwards

Fuck it, reinstate the monarchy, but make them pinky promise to behave

[–]gracklemancometh 52 points53 points  (4 children)

Tbf, Cromwell was basically a Fascist dictator 250 years before Mussolini was born. He was hated for some very, very good reasons.

After getting a taste of that you can see why people were pretty keen on getting the king back. And bonus! Now he knows you really will chop his head off if he oversteps.

[–]Spursious_Caeser 22 points23 points  (1 child)

Cromwell's exploits in Ireland alone show what sort of man he was - a butcher masquerading as a man of God.

[–]Mr_SunnyBones 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think this gets forgotten in Britain .
Britons " he's terrible cos he banned Christmas"
Irish people : " He's like if Hitler , Stalin and Pol Pot had a 3 way , and created history's actual worst monster!!."

[–]deadlygaming11 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Eh, the bigger part was after that. King James I got deposed due to following the wrong type of christianity and the bill of rights was passed in 1689 which forced the monarch to be constitutional and logical, reduced the monarchs power, banned the cruel and unusual punishments, and declared that parliament is in charge.

[–]Dominarion 105 points106 points  (10 children)

This. Sometimes I hear people say dumb shit like Great Britain became a democracy when the Magna Carta was ratified.

Like, no. It was revoked a decade later. It wasn't even democratic. It was aristocratic. Then it was a constant struggle between the British various classes and ethnic groups for centuries with very small, incremental consultative changes that often fell into abysses of tyranny. The Brits kind of evolved into a democracy by accident because they had two sovereigns incapable of exercising direct rules who ruled for a very long time in the 1700s and 1800s.

[–]gracklemancometh 26 points27 points  (4 children)

The UK abolished inheritable seats in the upper house of Parliament three weeks ago.

We tried a Christian military dictatorship for a few years in the 1600s and ever since have settled on slowly reforming the monarchy. It's very much still a work in progress, but it avoids the turmoil of a revolution.

It does mean that progress is very, very slow, so there are very much downsides, but it's working so far.

[–]drquakersStill salty about Carthage 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Britain has been very fortunate that more often than not the people in charge of the military have decided "yes I would rather give up a little of my power instead of killing a large number of people that I have power over"

[–]MasterpieceBrief4442 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Well, the English and later the British were never very fond of centralized standing armies in the European model. A king could use it to attack Parliament or an ambitious general could lead a coup. It's why the Navy and Air Force are Royal, they were formed centralized under the sovereign (and later Parliament but through the monarch). The Army is plain old Army and answers to Parliament.

[–]Infamous-Use7820 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yes, but I do think there are a few caveats there, mostly for the sake of non-Brits.

One, hereditary peers were a minority of Lords. Two, the HoL is pretty weak in comparison to must upper chambers in the world - it mainly just has the power to delay legislation. Three, lots of people think all Hereditary peers are/were aristocrats, but most were actually descendants of people added to the Lords on a merit basis in the late 19th and early 20th century. The issue was that there were no 'Life Peers' until 1958, so if you wanted, say, Clement Attlee (the post-war British PM who built much of the welfare state) to go into the Lords, you automatically conferred a seat to his descendants.

[–]deadlygaming11 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Wasn't the main point of the Magna Carta just to make the monarch be on the same level as a regular person in terms of the law anyway? It also established some actual laws and that most people need to be treated semi-fairly.

[–]Dominarion 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Or rather make the King subject to its own laws. All its provisions were repelled very quickly but it inspired later people (like Montfort) in their demands.

[–]Secure_Garlic_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Magna Carta had very little to do with "regular people." It was entirely about codifying the relationship between the king and the nobility. Regular people were still serfs who had to obey the whims of the nobles that owned the land they farmed on.

[–]The-Senate-Palpy 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Im not a brit to be clear, but i find the hardcore "abolish the monarchy" brit crowd to be extremely interesting and, honestly, very compelling

[–]Fun_Marionberry_6088 25 points26 points  (13 children)

The UK functions exactly the same as a republic, the King has literally no de facto power.

It wasn't quite that iterative though, there was a fair bit of violence involved in the 17th century.

Since then parliament just bit by bit eroded the King's power because it had already taken away his ability to do anything to stop them, most notably by removing any ability to raise taxes (contrary to what the founding fathers claimed, George III had nothing to do with that, it was parliament).

[–]merp_mcderp9459 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Iirc George III was also more willing to reconcile with the colonies and compromise on their demands. It was the Prime Minister at the time who decided that there would be no compromise

[–]Prometheus720 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But nobility has had power in Parliament and in commerce.

[–]leoskini 529 points530 points  (58 children)

This chart implies that the February revolution was somehow a step backwards for democracy, which is... a perspective of sorts I guess.

[–]ShinySuiteTheory 150 points151 points  (31 children)

It also implies that Napoleon was a complete drop off for democracy from… the restored monarchy????

[–]redvodkandpinkgin 80 points81 points  (2 children)

The Reign of Terror is shown as an easier path that the 1789 revolution, which is nuts. It also presents EVERY monarchical restoration as the easy path.

[–]SpinachMajor1857 11 points12 points  (1 child)

Pendant ce temps, Régime de Vichy : "Am I a joke to you ?"

[–]Opus_723 8 points9 points  (23 children)

Genuine question, don't know much French history: Was there much difference between Napolean and a king that wasn't just names of things?

[–]electricshoutTaller than Napoleon 41 points42 points  (18 children)

Yeah, Napoleon favored meritocracy and did a lot to improve the rights of the fellow man as long as you weren’t a woman or former colonial slave.

[–]Opus_723 11 points12 points  (16 children)

Those might be good things, but are they democratic specifically? It's not like you could vote, right, it was just whatever Napolean wanted?

Having a good king isn't more democratic, even if it's preferable to a bad king.

[–]Physix_R_Cool 21 points22 points  (13 children)

Those might be good things, but are they democratic specifically

Napoleon was elected emperor in 1804. That the people voted for it means the empire was legitimized by the people, which is distinctly different from a monarch who rules by divine right.

[–]hauntologically-red 14 points15 points  (6 children)

Which is also why he crowned himself, instead of being crowned by an archbishop or pope.

No doubt Napoleon did have a ridiculously massive ego, but I hate the (Anglo) historiography of his coronation. No, it wasn't just a megalomaniacal heel turn, it was a declaration that his authority emerged from the people, not from the church.

[–]typingatrandom 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Plus he had the pope come all the way from Rome to Paris to attend...

[–]borkthegee 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So, Napoleon packaged many of the values of the French revolution into his brand of autocracy as a revolutionary modernizer.

The Bourbons, the monarchy, still protected many old feudal practices. Society was split into the Three Estates and society was totally corrupted by governance being run by those with hereditary feudal titles. Taxes were a mess, the law was a mess, everything was a mess and the monarchy basically imploded.

Napoleon was totally different. He embraced the revolutionary goal of getting rid of the three estates and he implemented a meritocracy where positions were given to the worthy. He overhauled all French law into the Napoleonic codes, simplified and modernized taxes, established a central bank and ultimately modernized france. So in this way he was very different than the monarchy.

And I would say he possessed more power than any bourbon king of his era. Many of the contemporary bourbon kings were only moderately effective. Napoleon was absolutely beloved by the people during his era and had insane control over the military. He was simply more powerful than the monarchy imo

[–]AffectionateLow6824[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Napoleon III is often called "the first modern dictator"

Though he probably was more democratic than the monarchs

[–]SpinachMajor1857 8 points9 points  (0 children)

There are two phases in Napoléon III's reign, the 1852-1860 hard mode and the 1860-1871 softer mode, where press freedom and parliaments' rights started to bloom, more or less. It's quite interesting when you dig in it

[–]LastEsotericistStill salty about Carthage 96 points97 points  (1 child)

that's the tiny bit of flat ground right in front of the bike

[–]axonxorz 18 points19 points  (2 children)

Women's suffrage, too.

I'm not convinced the author understands how line charts work.

[–]4ofclubs 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Def has an agenda

[–]Crab2406 51 points52 points  (12 children)

debatable, yes you made the Tsar abdicate and Assembly kinda leads the country, but thats it, country is in ruins, half of the army deserted, smaller revolutions happen in distant cities, constant in-fighting and losses upon losses on the eastern front

[–]kichererbs 50 points51 points  (4 children)

I mean it’s just kind of questionable to see the Russia after the February Revolution further away from democracy than the Russian Empire was…

[–]Crab2406 2 points3 points  (3 children)

well, Russian empire had Duma after 1905 revolution events. and it was somewhat stable. but i think it depends on the details i am not aware of

[–]kichererbs 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I mean that Duma had less power/influence than the Duma of today has.

[–]motherofdinos_ 12 points13 points  (0 children)

The Duma was largely a symbolic gesture of appeasement and had no real power as the tsar could convene dissolve it at will. They essentially just suggested policy and had no real authority to enforce legislation, especially since the tsar could and did mandate new elections at any time.

[–]cyanwaw 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The Duma was useless.

[–]Agitated_Guard_3507 26 points27 points  (6 children)

February Revolution instituted liberal democracy, but they wanted to keep fighting so the Bolsheviks overthrew them

[–]This-Wall-1331 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Yeah, it's a confusing one. Imperial Russia was way less democratic than the USSR or today's Russia.

The only two times Russia was ever democratic was between the February and October revolutions and during the "crazy" 1990s. In both times, democracy failed spectacularly.

I'm not saying Russia can't be democratic in the future, but the transition will have to be organized better, unlike what happened in the past.

[–]Nibaa 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I mean it doesn't differentiate between the revolutions, and the February revolution directly resulted in a government that specifically did not have popular support. Most of the provitional government also opposed democratization efforts, they just lacked the power to stop the rise of soviets and ultimately fell to them.

[–]leoskini 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Sure, but the standard here is not a fully democratic society, but a comparision to the previous, fully autocratic rule of the tsars.

[–]Harold_Zoid 1 point2 points  (0 children)

the y-axis is not the degree of democracy but bumps in the road.

[–]CardOk755 158 points159 points  (25 children)

Sort of glossing over the Irish civil war and the decades of stagnation and corruption.

[–]Super-Cynical 22 points23 points  (18 children)

Fianna Fáil 99 seasons, De Valera, Taoiseach for life, 2 seasons of interparty filler though

[–]TheHistoryMaster2520Decisive Tang Victory 7 points8 points  (0 children)

iirc when Cosgrave's party lost elections in 1932 and had to cede power, there was a real threat of Ireland sliding back into civil war because the IRA feared Cumann na Gadheal would not give up power

[–]CardOk755 12 points13 points  (14 children)

There was a long period where Ireland sort of looked like a soft version of Franco's Spain or Salazar's Portugal.

[–]Craicriture 10 points11 points  (5 children)

It was 100% democratic and remained so. It was just very socially conservative and enamoured with the Catholic Church for a large chunk of the 20th century, while being a full democracy and seeing democracy, rebellion against all things monarchy related and the proclamation of independence as a huge part of identity. It goes fairly far reaching, for example the courts in Ireland ruling that the concept of sovereign immunity was extinguished after independence etc is fairly unusual and quite the opposite of fascism.

It’s was just that during the 20th century hardcore social conservative Catholic views were popular amongst a big chunk of the Irish electorate. The church’s grip was slowly shaken off in the 60s, 70s and then very rapidly as the 90s arrived.

It has a lot parallels with social changes in Quebec a couple of decades earlier - also existed as a very stuffy and conservative 100% democratic entity that ended up rapidly flipping to being socially progressive.

However Ireland also suffered a youth emigration cultural brain drain and ended up dominated by a stuffy, conservative, old population in the mid 20th century. That drove some very conservative political culture. You see the turn around in dominant social attitudes coinciding with economic successes and the younger cohort beginning to stick around.

[–]gracklemancometh 8 points9 points  (1 child)

It was 100% democratic and remained so. It was just very socially conservative and enamoured with the Catholic Church 

I think people often miss this. Sometimes people vote for opressive and regressive regimes because they like it. It doesn't always have to be forced.

Look at America or Hungary. Trump and Orban were elected in democratic elections by openly running on platforms of undermining democratic elections. Democracy gives you the right to vote away your rights.

[–]CardOk755 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I did say "soft". The stagnation without the violent repression.

[–]I-am-a-Fancy-Boy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You'd think our history would be interesting enough for people to remember but we'll take the good boy points ig

[–]Mr_SunnyBones 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Thabks to Dev's Maidens dancing at the Crossroads ethos , Catholic Church had too damn much power and sadly a lot of the time used it for awful things like covering up sexual abuse ,Magdaline Laundries , Mother and Child centres , blocking contraception being available to anyone and ( not as important) banning all the good films!

[–]SolidestCereal 14 points15 points  (1 child)

Putting "Independence" as a flat road (and the "start" of Ireland too) is already instant proof the creator doesn't know or care and just needed an example for the joke.

[–]Dookwithanegg 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Also all the defeated rebellions that happened before the war for independence.

[–]Scumbag__ 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah Ireland is more like;

Battle of Clontarf -> Norman invasion -> Flight of the Earls -> Cromwells genocide -> Battle of the Boyne -> Penal Laws -> 1798 Rebellion -> Robert Emmets Rebellion -> Famine -> Young Irelander Rebellion -> Fenian Rising -> Dublin Lock Out -> Easter Rising -> Irish Soviets -> War of Independence -> Anglo-Irish treaty -> Civil War -> Partition -> The Troubles

[–]Gav3121 51 points52 points  (5 children)

You really simplified the french one

[–]Elekitu 20 points21 points  (2 children)

Yeah, absolutely nothing noteworthy happened for us after Napoleon III.

What's that, you want to know what we did during WWII? Don't worry about it :)

[–]DepartureNatural9340 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Aha op is French! Only true frenchmen pretend Vichy never happened /s

[–]lucasj 23 points24 points  (0 children)

I enjoy that the Revolution was the nadir of democracy, and the Terror was a marked improvement, according to the chart.

[–]ArcticTern4theWorse 106 points107 points  (8 children)

Somehow, Napoleon returned

[–]HG2321 9 points10 points  (1 child)

If I had a dollar for every time a Bonaparte became president and then elevated themselves to emperor from there, I'd have two dollars.

Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.

[–]PygmeePony 28 points29 points  (1 child)

Turns out when you exile a military leader you shouldn't give him his own private army.

[–]nolok 13 points14 points  (0 children)

To be fair the guy turned over the royal army to his cause too. The whole "who will shoot his emperor?" thing kinda established who was in charge of the country long before he reached Paris.

[–]vomicyclin 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The funny thing about this is that this was pretty much how it happened.

He sailed from Elba to France and Marshall Ney was send by Louis XVIII with an army to stop him.

They stood before Napoleon to shoot him, but instead of shooting, the men joined him.

[–]AffectionateLow6824[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

When you rule 3 times longer than your uncle and basically right the handbook for modern dictators but no one remembers you because you didn't do a lot of war stuff

[–]Elpsyth 7 points8 points  (0 children)

He was an amazing administrator and did wonders for the country though. And he got more territory expansion than his uncle.

If he did not lose the Franco Prussian war he would be remembered like one of the greatest statesman of modern history

[–]Gogyoo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Luckily they sent him to another island.

[–]hot_messxoxo 72 points73 points  (1 child)

this is kinda random but it reminded me of something my ex used to say… he’d always talk about how “nothing real ever comes easy” and i used to roll my eyes at it, but looking back it’s weird how true it felt in different ways. like we had such an easy start and i thought that meant it was meant to last, but when things actually got hard we couldn’t hold it together. now whenever i see stuff like this it makes me think about how messy the process is for anything meaningful, whether it’s countries or relationships… it’s never just a straight line 😭

[–]Drucchi 26 points27 points  (0 children)

For Denmark I will note that when women got the vote it is often forgotten that every adult got the vote, before that it was only wealthy land owning men who could vote, meaning that the entire working class got the vote then.

[–]DefTheOcelot 17 points18 points  (1 child)

Putting the Absolute Monarchy as a hill at all is not very historically informed. Even in the monarchies of europe, it was tyrannical, holding onto serfdom to the early 1900s. They were basically always 25 years behind western europe on progress. The very concept of 'power comes from the people' of the enlightenment deeply offended Catherine the great.

[–]buppus-hound 46 points47 points  (20 children)

Russia was more democratic when a monarchy than when communist?

[–]Mystic-Mastermind 13 points14 points  (0 children)

How is the reign of terror better than revolution or nappy 1?

[–]Salt-Grass6209 89 points90 points  (11 children)

Generations of Russians watching their autocratic and oppressive government collapse and be replaced with another one: 🫩

[–]merp_mcderp9459 52 points53 points  (1 child)

In the specific order of bald, hairy, bald, hairy, bald, hairy, etc.

[–]maxofJupiter1 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Next Russian dictator needs facial hair

[–]Affectionate-Mail612 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I'm very fortunate to live through the 00's and having a bit of hope in Russia and the world. I don't think I will experience it ever again. Neither kids in today's Russia. Neither many places to be fair.

[–]GandalfTheJaded 14 points15 points  (5 children)

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

[–]Salt-Grass6209 8 points9 points  (4 children)

Russian citizens: you have saved us!

Lenin/Stalin/Yeltsin/Putin: Oh I wouldn’t say freed, More like under new management

[–]thex25986e 2 points3 points  (3 children)

replace yeltsin with brehznev.

yeltsin at least tried to do better. he failed, but he at least tried.

[–]StrontiumDawn 25 points26 points  (2 children)

France did the hard fighting for us (DK). They scared every monarch in Europe shitless.

[–]AffectionateLow6824[S] 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Yeah the french revolution probably did more for democracy in other European countries then it did for democracy in france

[–]Suspected_Magic_User 28 points29 points  (5 children)

Yeah... In my lifetime there have already been 4 popes, but only 2 presidents of Russia.

[–]Suspicious-Act671 18 points19 points  (3 children)

Technically 3, but even Russians joking about Medvedev not being a real president

[–]Suspected_Magic_User 20 points21 points  (2 children)

I'm counting Putin and Medvedev, I was born in 2001

[–]Suspicious-Act671 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Oh, yeah,my bad

[–]ShameSudden6275 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Tbf Popes are also old as shit when they come to power simply because getting to be a cardinal is a long and arduous process.

[–]Aggressive-Rate-5022 10 points11 points  (1 child)

It’s kinda stupid to show “reign of terror” as closer to democracy than “revolution”. Or Napoleon I and restoration of monarchy.

The same can be said about Russian “absolute monarchy” and revolution. I know that people don’t like communists and revolution in Russia is linked to this, but monarchy was unbelievable shit, not one bit closer to democracy than communism. If anything, it was further in this regard.

Edit: I get the sentiment, but because of this little details picture still looks kinda goofy.

[–]Affectionate-Mail612 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Early Soviet Russia was as progressive as a country could be. Being gay, trans was allowed, women could vote, speak any language (no enforced Russian). National republics founded.

That coupled with military communism policy, repressions and total economical collapse.

Fascinating times nonetheless.

[–]jimmypadkock 9 points10 points  (0 children)

 Irish History, yes, that total walk in the park Vs the greatest empire  the world had known until the second world war. Also at a nearly 800 struggle at least it was over quickly.

[–]West-Contribution797 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Haha, yeah :( sobbing in russian

[–]Affectionate-Mail612 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Взойдет звезда пленительного счастья

[–]MorgrainX 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Try Germany next

Might need a couple pages

[–]AffectionateLow6824[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

constitutional monarchy -> unstable republic + 2 apocalyptic financial crises -> funny moustache man does unspeakable atrocities -> rehabilitation period (occupation by 2 superpowers) -> democracy

[–]Rabid_Lederhosen 11 points12 points  (7 children)

The Democracy flag for Ireland should arguably be before Independence.

[–]SmellsLikeHoboSpirit 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not really, there was still Gerrymandering of elections and paramilitary influence in thins like the home rule bill even if there was democratic elections. Unfortunately this continued in Northern Ireland after.

[–]VladimireUncoolKilroy was here 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Bicycles are always a solution to all of Denmark's problems

[–]MateuszC1 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Why would you consider the "reign of terror" as an "up"? It was by far the worst part of the, already bad, French Revolution.

[–]darranj85 6 points7 points  (0 children)

There was several hundred years of rebellions in Ireland before independence to be fair

[–]putyouradhere_ 19 points20 points  (8 children)

The soviets were way more democratic than the Tsars

[–]Affectionate-Mail612 8 points9 points  (2 children)

That's actually true. My grandma was a local MP in Soviet times. Not sure what exactly she did tho, but it was something.

[–]Shadalow 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Kinda disagree. The tsar actually had a functionnal parliament, with multi party, even left leaning ones, between 1905 an 1917.

[–]Prometheus720 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Inaccurate on Russia. You have to show them almost making it and then falling down into a pit of doom.

February was supposed to be a social democracy.

[–]Plodderic 3 points4 points  (2 children)

It’s been a long road, getting from there to here

[–]TripleEhBeef 2 points3 points  (1 child)

It's been a long time, but my time is finally near...

[–]Mr_SunnyBones 1 point2 points  (0 children)

..and I will see my dream come alive again , I will touch the sky

[–]MrRemoto 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I don't know which British person created this meme, but Ireland's path prior to that little "independence" note wasn't exactly a stroll in the park.

[–]Senior-Sale273 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Who the fuck drew the line for Ireland? A british royalist?

[–]El-estratega_memeroFine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer 2 points3 points  (3 children)

I'm surprised Spain didn't appear in here, we went nuts with our governments during the period from 1812-1939

[–]Orti36 2 points3 points  (2 children)

" Estoy hasta los cojones de todos nosotros" - Estanislao Figueras, primer presidente de la Primera República. Je.

[–]Saikamur 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Hasta un rey abdicó después de 2 años y medio... Imagínate cómo tendría que estar el percal para que el bueno de Amadeo dijera que el trono no le compensaba...

[–]El-estratega_memeroFine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Presidente más basado no podía haber

[–]GoMinii 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I feel like Ireland should be Canada. Didn’t Canada ask the crown for independence and their response was basically, “ok, good luck.”

[–]undreamedgore 1 point2 points  (3 children)

The US's is actually similar to Denmark's which for how early (relative to it's contemporaries) it was is pretty great.

Greatest thing Gorege Washington ever did was stop being President.

[–]gmuslera 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Right now US seems to be on the edge of a cliff, and ready to take a step forward.

[–]Revolver_Kurisu 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Britain kinda just tumbled down the stairs into a pseudo democracy

[–]EmergencyGrocery3238 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Russia looked at this and decided go backwards

[–]RearEndDrunk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Denmark entered two civil wars with foreign intervention, went bankrupt and lost 3/4 of it's territory and Ireland was a prototypical settler colony for the British, suffered two famines and a civil war.

[–]AmITeej 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Are we forgetting about the absolute GOATs of the category, the Motherfuckers who invented democracy, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA BABY RAAAAHHHHHH🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅

[–]Polar_VortxLet's do some history 1 point2 points  (0 children)

U.S.: [gmod ragdoll-halfway-in-the-floor collision noises]

[–]MikeinMunster 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No way in hell was Ireland that easy

[–]Efficient_Bag_3804 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ireland occupation by United Kingdom was plenty of suffering. I remember they had a famine so bad they Ottoman Emperor volunteered to sent food, but the English denied their help out of pride.

[–]TheTimocraticMan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm a big fan of the implication here that the Tsardom was more democratic than everything that came after 🤣

[–]Real-Pomegranate-235The OG Lord Buckethead 2 points3 points  (0 children)

UK: Very slowly edging towards it until 1928 on a really long hill

[–]are_you_a_clanker 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It’s mildly weird that it skips over all of Ireland’s rebellions but eh

[–]CockchopsMcGraw 4 points5 points  (30 children)

Russia will collapse before it becomes a healthy democracy, the sooner the better

[–]muha4004 21 points22 points  (13 children)

Collapsed twice, became worse each time.

[–]waldleben 20 points21 points  (11 children)

I get saying the moidern russian federation is worse than the Soviet Union but saying that the soviets were worse than the Monarchy is just straight up incorrect.

[–]DasistMamba 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It depends on the criteria you use and the time period in question. For example, the courts and prisons were worse under the Soviet Union. Take Vera Zasulich, for instance: she shot Trepov, the Governor-General of St. Petersburg (and the tsar’s brother), and was later acquitted by a jury. That would have been unthinkable in the Soviet Union.

[–]CockchopsMcGraw 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Kept their territorial integrity though. Next one will be worse I think

[–]johnnykidlx 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ah, yes, the illusion of democracy and why it should apply to everyone who are not delusional.