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[–]SexThrowaway1126 110 points111 points  (3 children)

DURING THE WHAT, MASON?

[–]ogodilovejudyalvarez 35 points36 points  (0 children)

"Mason, my friend... Tell me... What is left to believe in, when you are betrayed, by your own?"

[–]SopwithTurtle[S] 19 points20 points  (0 children)

During the march to a better meme generator, apparently.

[–]KonstantinePhoenix 92 points93 points  (6 children)

Lee apparently enslaved/re-enslaved blacks captured in the Gettysburg campaign...

[–]thequietthingsthat 39 points40 points  (4 children)

Was also by all accounts a particularly brutal slaveowner who treated slaves terribly.

[–]KonstantinePhoenix 21 points22 points  (3 children)

...which makes me wonder about the whole "lee hated slavery angle"

[–]fantomfrank 17 points18 points  (2 children)

I did my own research on it, he didnt hate it, in his letters he thought it was "disadvantageous to the white man" because they have to pay for upkeep and manage them, rather than simply paying a wage and the slaves manage themselves

So he didnt hold the opinion because he felt it was moral, he thought it didnt make business sense, which it didnt but like cmon man

[–]KonstantinePhoenix 1 point2 points  (1 child)

He got rid of the Custis skaves, didn't he? But kept his own family ones from memory 

[–]fantomfrank 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He might have been waiting for a time when it wasnt highly political to drop his slaves, or maybe he just wanted to ride it out and find another business?

Im not an expert on him, im sure someone past retirement age knows

[–]BigWilly526John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not just him he gave the his Army permission to do it

[–]Double_Welder647 85 points86 points  (4 children)

Lee inherited salves from his mother in the 1829 and later was the executor of his father-in-law's estate and inherited 197 slaves at Arlington Plantation in 1857 who were supposed to be freed no later than five years after his death. He would then take a two year leave from the army to personally oversee Arlington Plantation and would drive them so hard and impose such strict punishments that his torture of slaves would appear in the New York Tribune. Lee would then later petition courts twice to extend the five year emancipation deadline once in a US court in 1858 then again in a confederate court in 1862, and both times he was told no.

Lee didn't hate slavery. He benefited from it. He took an active part in it. He fought to protect it.

Also, Montgomery Meigs deserves a shout out for turning Lee's Arlington Plantation into Arlington National Cemetery, making it his personal mission in life to turn Lee's property into an ever present reminder of Lee's treason ordering that the graves by "planted up to the very door".

[–]mcduff13 29 points30 points  (2 children)

It's good to remember that people at the time were offended by his treason. This isn't just modern folks judging unfairly, his contemporaries felt the same way.

[–]Will512 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Still insane to me that Lee didn't hang after all this. He should've

[–]mcduff13 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They only hanged one confederate officer, the head of the Andersonville prison. I think they wanted healing, although I agree with your sentiment.

[–]TheMannisApproves 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Wait, even a confederate court told him that he would have to free his slaves?

[–]NomadLexicon 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Also the entire state of West Virginia.

[–]Far_Ladder_2836Kilroy was here 89 points90 points  (2 children)

I honestly believe NeoCons are just behind flat earthers in terms of academic and intellectual dishonesty.

My favorite gotcha is to ask which state left the Union first and ask them to look up the vote and article of succession.

Inevitably they'll panic and start looking up the rest of the original 9 and, yeah, they all said it.

[–]Will512 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Neocons?

[–]progbuck 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You mean paleocons, maybe? Neocon doesn't just mean "things I don't like", it specifically refers to the hawkish wing of the Republican party, most of whom werenot from the south and were more moderate on domestic policy. A lot of the original neocons were ex Trotskyists.

[–]Pope_Neia 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Forgot all of West Virginia

[–]Roadhouse699 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Alabamans protected a guy while he burned Georgia to the ground, that tracks

[–]thequietthingsthat 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Men like Farragut and Thomas were way better at their jobs too

[–]SopwithTurtle[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is logistics erasure - Meigs was also excellent at his job.

[–]greenpill98Rider of Rohan 2 points3 points  (11 children)

No one serious is saying he HAD to. But in the time and place the man lived, siding with one's state, family and neighbors over some union with people governed by a congress, president and sourt that was far removed from your daily life was normal and expected thing for a man to do in the United States. Doing otherwise was cutting yourself off from your family, friends and native land. The men who turned on their states for the same of keeping the Union together and in the end ridding the US of slavery are to be commended and praised. But that doesn't make the men who did otherwise evil.

It's easy for people living in the modern world to condemn the dead throughout history for making decisions that we in our modern comforts and 20/20 hindsight would NEVER make. Of course, we like to reserve a great deal of compassion and understanding for ourselves and the choices WE make, because golly gee wiz things aren't so simple these days, and we don't know what's going to happen in the future. But everyone who lived before us should have acted with the full and certain knowledge and morality that we have today, or they are bad people.

[–]mcduff13 4 points5 points  (2 children)

He sided against his nephew, who fought and died for the union. He turned against his sister, who never forgave him.

[–]greenpill98Rider of Rohan -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

Meanwhile, General Thomas(mentioned in the meme), was disowned by his family and never returned to his home state. These were the choices the men involved were faced with.

[–]mcduff13 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess, but he died in 1870, while still in the army at a posting in San Francisco. It's not like he had a lengthy retirement where he could choose where to live.

[–]Far_Ladder_2836Kilroy was here 24 points25 points  (1 child)

No one serious is saying he HAD to.

I think you deeply underestimate the racism of some people.  Personal anecdote, my supervisor who has the flag on his truck, UTV, and headset has expressed this multiple times and is 3 coors banquets away from saying they should do it again.

If you said "no one educated on the truth of the matter" I'd agree but then that would assume he led the CSA because he believed in what they stood for, not because he happened to live in Virginia.

You're also presenting a false dichotomy.

But in the time and place the man lived, siding with one's state, family and neighbors over some union with people governed by a congress, president and sourt that was far removed from your daily life was normal and expected thing for a man to do in the United States

Only works if you assume he couldn't have just refused to lead the CSA.  No, he agreed because the lives of Americans and Virginians were worth less than the institution of slavery.  He was complicit.

The men who turned on their states for the same of keeping the Union together and in the end ridding the US of slavery are to be commended and praised. But that doesn't make the men who did otherwise evil.

This is the only piece I take direct issue with, however.  Overwhelmingly the Union fought to preserve the Nation.  Overwhelmingly the CSA seceded  to preserve the institue of Slavery and they put it in their articles of secession.  Slavery in The South remained a popular idea throughout the entirety of the Civil War and into Reconstruction because they overwhelmingly fought to preserve slavery. 

[–]ZantaraLost 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Far removed?

Do you not realize where his homestead was?

The man spent almost his entire life less than 10 miles from Washington DC.

[–]SopwithTurtle[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Were the 500,000 slaves in Virginia not also his neighbors?

[–]FanraGump 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's easy for people living in the modern world to condemn the dead throughout history for making decisions that we in our modern comforts and 20/20 hindsight would NEVER make. Of course, we like to reserve a great deal of compassion and understanding for ourselves and the choices WE make, because golly gee wiz things aren't so simple these days, and we don't know what's going to happen in the future. But everyone who lived before us should have acted with the full and certain knowledge and morality that we have today, or they are bad people.

I'm not saying I would have the moral courage to stand against slavery if it caused me problems. However, I would not object to someone saying I was wrong to do so.

The whole idea of "Modern times are different and 20/20 hindsight" does not apply here. By 1860, everyone was well aware that slavery was viewed as wrong by millions of people in the USA and most "civilized" nations around the world. Every time a new state was added to the US, there was a big fight about whether it would be a slave state or a free state.

Around the world slavery was on the way out. That's why the South seceded. They saw the writing on the wall and decided to dig in and make their own country, with blackjack and hookers slaves.

The South was against the times, the times were not, "Slavery is fine". The times were "Slavery is bad". They knew they were the "Last bastion of slavery" and were willing to kill anyone that stood in their way.

[–]Blade_Shot24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you!

Someone was reading my comments and saw the apologists. It was appalling to say the least. Best believe they'd never do this in person.

[–]Rukdug7 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Huh, I knew about most of these but Montgomery Meigs and the Alabama Cavalry are a surprise. Nice.

[–]JustTheOneGoose22Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Anyone who says Lee hated slavery is a fool, a liar, or both.

[–]BigWilly526John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lee did not hate Slavery

[–]NeedsToShutUp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lee’s house was in DC until only about a dozen years prior to the Civil War.