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[–]BlackLionYard 25 points26 points  (0 children)

but I’m a bit skeptical.

You are not alone in being skeptical.

Z wrote about firing 10 shots, and this fact had been published months earlier for sure. As far as I can tell, the other specific details he wrote about had not appeared in the press. I have seen claims that these details must have been obtained by someone with access to the case files, but for me, once we get into conspiracy theory territory, I get very suspicious.

Until SCSO calls a press conference and makes an official announcement that LHR wasn't a Z crime, then as far as I am concerned, it's a Z crime.

[–]JR-Dubs 6 points7 points  (20 children)

His statements were pretty definitive, but all stuff that would be in the police report. If he had access to the police report he could have gathered that information and reported it. LHR is odd, because according to the report it looks like it was a robbery gone wrong for some reason. Faraday had his fingers on his class ring, as though he was trying to remove it. It differs from the LB "fake robbery" in that, at LB the perpetrator took pains to put Shepard and Hartnell at ease in order to get them into a position to attack them safely. At LHR the killer did the opposite, by firing into the vehicle and shooting numerous rounds to entice the victims out of the vehicle. Which makes no sense for a hoax robbery. If you're gonna kill them, just shoot them in the car, a' la Blue Rock Springs, why get them out and shoot them, allowing Jensen the opportunity to make a break for it?

Maybe that's why he didn't do anything funny at BRS and just started blasting, and also why he engaged in subterfuge at LB, maybe he learned something.

Definitely odd.

[–]BlackLionYard 4 points5 points  (19 children)

because according to the report it looks like it was a robbery gone wrong for some reason.

One of the initial police reports clearly states "no apparent motive, robbery and sex ruled out." It was widely reported in the press that the initial motive investigated was jealousy, not robbery. By the spring of 1969, the theme of being a random killing by a "demented person" or "nut" had appeared in the press. One of the most insightful statements ever made about the Zodiac was made long before he announced himself by Mrs. Jensen:

We know he's a nut, but what kind of nut?

Faraday had his fingers on his class ring, as though he was trying to remove it.

This is still easily and best explained as a high school dude in the process of giving his ring to the girl he wants to go steady with.

[–]JR-Dubs 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is still easily and best explained as a high school dude in the process of giving his ring to the girl he wants to go steady with.

Seems like a weird time to give her the ring... after being forced out of the vehicle by gunfire, while being held at gunpoint. I can't believe this is a serious proposition, but you're pretty usually on point. Can you square that up?

Seems much more like the Lake Berryessa crime where he tried to incentivize them getting out of the car because it's "only a robbery", only to have Faraday reject his request, which compelled Zodiac to fire his weapon to force compliance.

One of the initial police reports clearly states "no apparent motive, robbery and sex ruled out.

You can say the same thing about Berryessa in a vacuum, right? He didn't take anything except keys. Robbery was not the motive, but it was the subterfuge. Perhaps LHR was much the same way, except he ran into a hero Eagle Scout.

I still think LHR is more like LB than BRS. I understand I'm in the minority on that one.

[–]HotAir25 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Sorry to add to the chorus, but I don’t find the explanation that he was in the process of giving a ring to his girl very plausible at that specific moment (interrupted or otherwise). 

It seems much more likely that he removed the ring because he thought he was about to be robbed and didn’t want it to be seen (the Zodiac may or may not have pretended to rob them but simply walking over to their car would have worried David all the same, hence concealing his valuables). 

[–]BlackLionYard 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Much depends on what we can conclude about how aware the kids were of Z's arrival and how much they even cared. The car seat was reclined, if the kids were also laying back, then their vision would be severely limited. Of course, it is true that they could have HEARD Z arriving in his car and sat up. Do we think that they did? We know that several cars drove by and saw the Rambler, which is as expected for that road; so, hearing traffic would be expected by the kids The turnout was fairly popular as a sort of lover's lane; there would be nothing unusual about another car driving in on a Friday night. If the heater was running as I have read, that could also have been a consideration.

I ultimately lean towards the kids not having had much time to be aware of someone coming at them, at least not in time to start reacting in a well-thought out manner. If David had the time necessary to react when he saw someone approaching, he had time to start the car and try to avoid a confrontation entirely.

Most of all, David was by all accounts a smart, mature young man. I personally believe that he would have known that trying to hide anything from a robber within the confines of a car was silly; he would have known that high school class rings generally have limited monetary value making them less attractive targets for robbery, plus they are easily replaced;; and, he would have known the safest way to deal with what appears to be a basic street crime is to simply give the thug the ring and get another one. I believe that if thoughts of what to protect crossed David's mind, they were all thoughts of protecting BettyLou, and to a smart, mature young man that meant the ring was nothing in comparison to her.

[–]HotAir25 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Interesting. 

It certainly is the most sensible thing to do, giving your belongings to a robber, but I don’t know whether we can assume everyone would do this. 

I was mugged at that age, I did eventually give up my phone but not immediately as it was very expensive, and I only did so after realising I couldn’t escape. A friend of mine who is about that age now was sadly mugged by another teenager, he didn’t give up his possessions and was stabbed and almost killed (he’s ok now). Even today I would be somewhat loathed to give up my things to some punk. 

I guess I’m just trying to say not everyone just gives people their belongings on demand, even if it is sensible. And (unless I misunderstand the crime scene) surely he could have just as easily been considering giving up the ring to a robber, if he was more sensible. 

I suppose it just seems like an odd coincidence for his ring being removed to be unrelated to the stranger approaching their car and shooting them. 

Is there a reason why people are saying (in this thread) that Zodiac was not pretending to rob them? That seems like superficially the most plausible scenario (and similar to the LB one). 

[–]BlackLionYard 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I wonder if the people drawing inspiration from LB and its ruse of a robbery are ignoring the obvious: LB involved stabbing, and people generally do not like being stabbed. The LB ruse makes a certain sense, as it allowed Z to get Bryan and Cecilia tied up and effectively immobilized and powerless. LB also involved a much more secluded location affording the time necessary. LHR had cars driving by every few minutes only a few yards away. LHR happened in darkness; Z could easily have realized that if someone got away, he'd never find them. The situation was much different at LB.

Everything about LHR reeks of a blitz firearm attack, just like BRS. And we know what did and did not happen at BRS.

[–]HotAir25 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes I see what you mean, it’s a more similar situation to BRS. That makes sense, perhaps the ring is not indicative of what Z was saying/doing this time. 

[–]DirtPoorRichard 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Except for the fact that a guy wouldn't have given the girl his class ring on a first date. We tried to be cool back then, and we tried to act indifferent, aloof, that's how you got the girls in those days. For a guy to give his ring on a first date would come off as needy and desperate. That was a definite no-no in the dating world back then. He was holding the ring for another reason that no one knows. Only David knows. I was once in an accident and as I lay there in a pool of blood, losing consciousness, I picked up a small rock, and proceeded to roll it back and forth in my fingers. Why? Because it was my way of staying connected to the real world. As long as I could feel that rock, I knew I was alive, and so I didn't let myself lose consciousness. Is that what David was doing? Maybe

[–]Rusty_B_Good 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I don't think we can be quite so definite about a particular kid's behavior in a specific circumstance. Humans are programmable, but they also gitch on their programs quite a bit. Faraday may have been moved by passion beyond being "cool" (happens to the coolest of us).*

Or perhaps Faraday's hands were simply in the position they were for any number of reasons.

Sorry to hear you were in a terrible accident. Sounds awful.

*Note: I am not counting myself among this "cool crowd," just saying...

[–]BlackLionYard 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Except for the fact that a guy wouldn't have given the girl his class ring on a first date.

They were on their first car date. By all accounts, they had been seeing each other and dating in a more general sense for a couple of weeks and were quite taken with each other. This first car date would have been a classic opportunity for David to offer BettyLou his ring.

[–]DirtPoorRichard -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Still would have considered pretty quick. We always waited many months, just in case we ran into a girl we liked better. In most cases, the girls we were dating never got the ring. But that's just my experiences, others will vary I'm sure

[–]Fearless_Challenge51 1 point2 points  (4 children)

This is still easily and best explained as a high school dude in the process of giving his ring to the girl he wants to go steady with.

He was just dragged out of his car at gunpoint. He is not in the process of giving his ring to Jensen. It could have been the assailant or assallents ordered him to give them his ring, and he refused. It could have been at this point that he was scared to death and was clutching it out of instinct. It could have been they asked him for it, and he was in the process of giving it to them when they shot him.

[–]BlackLionYard 1 point2 points  (3 children)

He was just dragged out of his car at gunpoint.

There is zero evidence that Zodiac ever laid a hand on David and dragged him out of the car.

He is not in the process of giving his ring to Jensen.

Until Z showed up, the kids most certainly could be doing almost anything that kids do on a date.

It could have been the assailant or assallents ordered him to give them his ring, and he refused.

Was David the proud owner of a 24 carat, diamond studded class ring? I don't think so. Do people spot an older Rambler parked on the side of the road and start thinking the people inside are rich? Probably not. Sure, people have always committed street crimes for whatever they can, but the idea that David's class ring was a goal is unconvincing, as is the idea that 17 year old Eagle Scout David would have refused with a gun pointed at him.

Some have proposed that Z attempted some sort of LB-style fake robbery up front, but I am unpersuaded. The best reconstructions of the timeline demonstrate how little time the incident took. The shot fired into the car strikes me as much more consistent with a blitz attack than any alternative. It fits perfectly with a surprise attack that results in the kids bailing out of the car in fright and then being picked off. Finally, if Z wanted to hoax a robbery, I would expect to see indications involving Davis's wallet and/or BettyLou's purse, because that would be the most logical way to approach people off guard and pretend to be a basic robber.

Based on what we know, I'll stick to the simplest explanation.

[–]Fearless_Challenge51 -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Think david did have some money missing. But no one knows where he was from 9pm to 10:15pm so that could explain that.

Anyway. Drag might not have been the best word for me to use.

Fact 1

Faraday exited the passenger door of his car.

Fact 2

He was shortly there after shot.

Fact 3

He was in a car. He could have attempted to drive away

HYPOTHESIS

Could he have thought it was safer for them to flee the car?

Could Betty have panicked and left, and he went to try to rescue her and pull her back in the car?

Could two assailants have done a better job convincing the pair to leave their rambler and face their assallents on a dirt parking lot in the middle of winter?

[–]BlackLionYard 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fact 1 Faraday exited the passenger door of his car.

This strikes me as by far the most reasonable conclusion, but we do not known as a completely established fact that this is true.

Fact 2 He was shortly there after shot.

Agreed. People can quibble about the definition of "shortly," but the timeline and the location of the bodies indicate it all happened very quickly once the kids exited the car.

Could Betty have panicked and left, and he went to try to rescue her and pull her back in the car?

He could certainly have gone out the passenger door after her, but it could easily have been as an escape attempt on his part rather than an attempt to get her back into the car.

Could two assailants have done a better job convincing the pair to leave their rambler and face their assallents on a dirt parking lot in the middle of winter?

One guy with a gun can be incredibly persuasive. There is simply no need to entertain multiple people involved in the crime.

[–]doc_daneekaI am not Paul Avery 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He was in a car. He could have attempted to drive away

Could he though? Turn the key, wait for the engine to start, hit the clutch pedal, shift to first gear, and slowly get moving until you can shift to second. He could have been shot about 10 times during that process.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

His fingers were on his class ring ? What was his birthday ? They usually have a birthday gemstone on a class ring... that could be a clue. 

[–]doc_daneekaI am not Paul Avery 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What was his birthday ?

Oct. 2. So Opal.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That would scratch libra off the list. I know there's cancer and Leo also off the list. I think each kill represents a different gemstone , as gemstones were hidden twords his reigns end... as a way to earn forgiveness.  Also Aries was diamond.. 

[–]Grumpchkin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That doesn't really sound like a very easy explanation at all actually, since he was shot after leaving the car.

It seems more likely that he either was attempting to offer Zodiac the ring, or it was just some nervous motion in the heat of the moment. It's obviously not impossible that he would have the ring in his hand before being surprised, then kept holding it rather than dropping it or putting it away somewhere.

But it doesn't seem like the simplest or most obvious scenario to me.

[–]Rusty_B_Good 6 points7 points  (1 child)

The basic hallmarks of the BRS crime are there.

Isolatied young couple.

Random scattershot shooting.

What appears to be a bumbling crime.

Plus, Zodiac took credit for it. It is true that Z alluded to crimes he might have committed or was willing to play along if someone accused him of something, but I am sure there were plenty of other violent crimes in the region he could have claimed but did not.

It's probably Z, and he probably did something stupid like (as JR points out) trying to lull Faraday and Jensen into believing he was simply a robber----his letters suggest that Zodiac thought himself clever, and he propbably thought he was pulling something very smart before it all fell apart and he started firing.

[–]Desperate-Panic-7696 2 points3 points  (2 children)

They're skeptical about the case because they had three suspects who looked really good for the crime one of whom David Faraday had threatened in the days before for selling drugs.  It was only after a letter was written taken credit for these murders that they stopped focusing on the suspects. I think the detectives running that case were upset by this because it did look like they had these three dead to rights.

[–]HeyPurityItsMeAgain 0 points1 point  (1 child)

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[–]Desperate-Panic-7696 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I haven't seen anything indicating that they confessed to police.  I'll have to pull up the old PDF files and check but I am pretty sure that one of the people who turned them in said that one of the younger suspects confessed to them that they committed the murders.  Once again I cannot be sure and it's on an old phone that I used in college but I've got it laying in a box in one of my closets lol. I'll go check.

[–]Nater23 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Short answer. Yes.

A lot of people try and peddle the theory it wasn’t. Some of them make good arguments, but you can do that with literally any killers crimes quite honestly.

Fact is, a lot more points to it being a Z crime than not, and that’s a hard pill for some to swallow.

[–]SignificantRelative0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Some of the information provided by Z in his letter doesn't match info in the police report. For example Z says Betty Lou was on her side. The police report says she was on her back

[–]AwsiDooger 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Authorities always have their pet suspect(s), the local creep. There was such a delay before Zodiac came forward that authorities became more entrenched and therefore stubborn with their pet suspect. It means nothing. This was a Zodiac crime.

If the Presidio had remained unsolved without Zodiac linking himself quickly, the same thing would have happened.

[–]BurtGummer1911 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You will always find someone stating "Ah, yes, that is the common opinion, BUT...!" about any subject in Earth's history. In true crime it is usually either a standard contrarian, or, more often, someone hoping to attract enough attention by saying something inane to become visible and then sell his "documentary project", etc..

[–]Ok-Ebb2872 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If Zodiac didn't do LHR, then who else would have put the zodiac symbol on their chest on their costume?

I really don't see who else but Zodiac would have done LHR as why else would someone put the zodiac symbol on their costume? The zodiac symbol really didn't come into mainstream knowledge until his crime spree.