Cut Wolfram

Do you think we should work on cracking down on CM-Lite Entries for Hate Sinks as a whole? With how vague the criteria currently is, I could totally see new Tropers making Hate Sink write-ups for potential Magnificent Bastards simply because they're Complete Monsters with vile crimes and sadistic traits.

Edited by William1855 on Feb 8th 2026 at 10:38:54 AM

That's what we've been trying to do for the past year or so and it's why we want to fix the description

So this is another character I wanted to bring up for a potential cut. I kinda alluded to him before but now, I'm actually talking about Akio Ohtori from Revolutionary Girl Utena. I shall go into further detail on this character.

This is his current entry on the Anime & Manga Hate Sink Page on this page:

• Revolutionary Girl Utena: Akio Ohtori convinces his 14-year-old student and housemate, Utena Tenjou, that he's a rich, wise gentleman and the only Reasonable Authority Figure in Ohtori Academy. The truth is that, as "End of the World", he runs the Rose Duels that passes his sister, Anthy Himemiya, around as the docile Rose Bride to the victors, abusive or otherwise. He claims to be the only one who can love Anthy and save her from taking the Swords of Hate in his place as a witch, but he has no qualms about raping her during their weekly tryst, letting the Swords stab her, throwing her as a meat shield against Utena, or ordering her to stab Utena in the back literally. He only sees his fiancée, Kanae, as a means to stay in power as the acting chairman, sleeping with her mother and implicitly disposing of her in secret. He seduces the blissfully unaware Utena, with their age differences making her consent for their sex questionable at best. When confronted, he offers Utena a chance to become his princess and leave Anthy in distress, saying that she shouldn't fight because "dresses don't go with swords". He refuses to take responsibility for his actions, going as far as to tell Utena that she has compromised her morals by sleeping with an engaged man and that Anthy enjoys being a witch.

Even ignoring how CM-Lite this is, I ultimately don't think the anime version of Akio counts in the end. He's a pretty despicable character overall and I don't think his entertaining qualities prevent him from counting as a Hate Sink and I think he's too disgusting to the point where it outweighs his entertaining traits. However, I do genuinely feel that he is indeed too complex for the trope. While a definite Complete Monster and all, the nature of his show is very much ripe to Alternate Character Interpretation and as such, Akio's character can be viewed radically differently depending on the viewer with some considering him a tragic villain. Even at his worst interpretation, Akio probably wouldn't count as a Hate Sink as from what I heard, he is meant to be an interesting representation on how men in a patriarchal society can easily become victimizers and he's apparently treated as both a perpetrator and victim of said system. What further kills his chances is that apparently, the creators of the show stated that all interpretations of the show's symbolism are valid (which is a major part of its story).

The Movie version can definitely keep as he lacks the interesting aspects of his show counterpart as he isn't entertaining or complex at all, being a completely pathetic moron who isn't remotely threatening.

However, Manga!Akio absolutely does not count as a Hate Sink in the slightest. Most of his vile acts and traits are cut from the Manga Adaptation with more emphasis on his scheming and charisma. He is far closer to being a Magnificent Bastard if anything.

Edited by William1855 on Feb 8th 2026 at 10:39:40 AM

I should mention that Akio was technically discussed as a Hate Sink a few years ago here but the entire EP seems to rely too much on CM-Lite Mentality as it mostly explores his actions and not really his traits.

Now that the consensus on Farquaad seems to be cut, I would like to discuss Bill Lumbergh in greater depth. To list some of the things about him that I thought made him a HS:

• His bullying of Milton. See, Milton had actually been fired years prior to the movie, but nobody told him, and Lumbergh took it upon himself to harass him, forcing him to keep changing desks, stealing his stapler, eventually forcing him to move to the office's apparently roach-infested basement, and finally fixing the glitch that allowed him to still get his paycheck. All in the hopes that he would eventually get the message and quit rather than just saying it to his face.
• The fact that he's intentionally banal and infuriating. He constantly speaks in a bland monotone and pretends to be everyone's buddy, has the lamest work outfits ever, and makes the shallowest attempts to motivate his employees, for instance, with Hawaiian Shirt Day.
• He's enough of an asshole to park in the handicap space because Peter stole his spot, and rightfully gets his car (almost) towed for it.
• Besides being a passive-aggressive form of Faux Affably Evil, he's also just not good at his job, something that HR questions him about. He's bad enough that Peter attempts to embezzle from Initech.

But as much of a douche as he is/was, almost everything about him is hilarious. His mistreatment of Milton is so petty and comically passive-aggressive and even parking in the handicap space is clearly not meant to get a straightforward "wow, fuck this guy" reaction from the audience. Even his apparent refusal to fire Milton to his face just highlights his incompetence. His monotonous voice is also frequently Played for Laughs, like when he blows up Peter's answering machine with voicemails that all start out almost the same way: "Yyyyeeeeaaah hi, it's me again..." "Yyyyyyeeeeeaaah hi, it's Bill Lumbergh..."

I'm thinking cut. Sure, he represents "everything that is soulless and wrong," and pretty much everyone In-Universe can't stand him and Michael likens him to the Devil ("Their children would have hooves!"), but he's not meant to be taken remotely seriously. The movie only gets (relatively) serious when Peter and his friends end up nearly facing the consequences of their own actions, and that had nothing to do with Lumbergh directly.

Edited by StrainsOfHorror on May 5th 2025 at 8:55:20 AM

Would anyone care to comment on Akio? I do think he is a complex case that warrants genuine discussion and the last reevaluation on him relied on CM-Lite Mentality.

This is a forum, not a chat room. It hasn't even been a day, please be patient until someone replies.

Edited by Amonimus on May 5th 2025 at 10:19:11 PM

A lot of us also don't like to weigh in if we don't know the work well enough, which I don't (for either of the works brought up here). Especially for cases like this, where it's complicated.

In other news, I'll try and work on the sandbox a bit today.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 5th 2025 at 2:56:08 PM

I guess I can wait until users familiar with the show comment here.

I don't think Akio is a Hate Sink in the show version. He runs too much on Evil Is Cool (even if the idea is to strip that cool veneer away). The movie version, however, could count, as his patheticness is emphasized in the movie vs the show.

Notably, Hate Sink isn't even on the Utena YMMV page.

I think the closest to Hate Sink in the show is probably Shiori, and even she probably doesn't count since the director said he found her sexy despite her many, many flaws.

Edited by PhiSat on May 5th 2025 at 1:33:46 AM

For something so contentious and subjective, wild that Hate Sink isn't YMMV.

Could movie Shiori count as a Hate Sink? That version seems to lack any of the remotely interesting elements of her anime counterpart and I feel any redeeming qualities to her character are far too minor to prevent her from being a Hate Sink.

Also, if you don’t mind me asking, what are your thoughts on Manga!Akio for this trope? Personally, I don’t think that version counts at all as like I said, he is far closer to being a Magnificent Bastard if anything.

Edited by William1855 on May 5th 2025 at 8:43:36 AM

I don't think manga Akio counts. As you said, he's more of a Magnificent Bastard.

I can see movie Shiori being a Hate Sink given her even more extreme Lack of Empathy and Adaptational Villainy.

EDIT: I can also see Keiko (Nanami's Beta Bitch) being a Hate Sink since her entire Black Rose duel show revolves around how creepy, self-centered, and pathetic she is (with her getting no redeeming moments later), but she could be too minor to count.

Edited by PhiSat on May 5th 2025 at 1:47:06 AM

I added a paragraph to Sandbox.Hate Sink to clarify portrayal and stuff. Second paragraph. Thoughts?

Also, uh, yeah. By its very nature Hate Sink isn't subjective because author intent is never subjective. It doesn't matter how the audience feels, it matters what the creator was aiming for.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 5th 2025 at 4:48:58 AM

TBH, I feel that a lot of the issues brought up in this thread are mainly because it’s difficult for users to understand the author’s intent when writing characters.

Edited by William1855 on May 5th 2025 at 8:53:03 AM

Sure, but that's why we're trying to clarify things more. (People also just never really seem to understand what qualifies a Hate Sink because they think that someone doing heinous things means they're definitely supposed to be hated, when that's rarely the actual case. In my experience, this is the actual issue we're seeing in most cases)

Edited by WarJay77 on May 5th 2025 at 4:52:59 AM

Misunderstanding the Hate Sink Trope to the point of believing bad actions = Hate Sink seems to be a major issue for this in general and even outside of TVT. For example, on a Media Fire Wiki about the Hate Sink Trope, I remember seeing someone suggesting Yamikage from Kirby as a potential Hate Sink simply for being a villain despite him being a Magnificent Bastard here.

Edited by William1855 on May 5th 2025 at 8:57:06 AM

Eh, we don't really worry about what other wikis do.

But if this sort of stuff interests you I'd suggest reading back in the thread to older posts to see what we're actually sorting out / how we determine Hate Sink stuff. Could probably help get a feel for how the discussions generally play out and what the issues have been, as well as answer any questions you have. (Don't need to go back too far, even just a few months or something)

Edited by WarJay77 on May 5th 2025 at 5:00:50 AM

While other tropes can provide clues, they are circumstantial evidence and shouldn't be relied on. If a character acts like a lousy dirtbag and not in a funny way, high odds they count.

Characters.Creature Commandos 2024, under Ilana's folder:

• Hate Sink: If Circe's vision regarding her turning out to be true doesn't make her this, then murdering the kind hearted Nina definitely does.

So even setting aside how weirdly Ilana's role in the story is handled, I don't think she qualifies at all.

The Bride says she's a "power mad, sadistic, narcissistic, Disney princess", but Ilana doesn't even get a single line mask-off, and that description doesn't preclude being a competent threat or Evil Is Hammy. What she does get is doesn't shed much on what she's like either, and while her killing Nina is pretty brutal, that's still only an indication to her personality, in a trope heavily based on personality.

The entry is also CM-lite, given that it says that the vision could qualify her...except that vision shows her as a crazy powerful conqueror with a cool scar and power armor, that is somehow a big enough threat to kill every superhero. That points more towards her being very evil, but more of an over the top supervillain, and not something really pathetic, or sleazy like the trope should be.

Edited by Malginel on May 5th 2025 at 3:10:58 AM

It's also just missing a lot of context. Like... what is that vision Circe had exactly and why is it relevant here?

Cut all around, nothing to salvage as written.

Looking at Sandbox.Hate Sink's new paragraph:

Agreed.