(cache)Fifteen Years In Japan: Anditto Heristyo’s Balancing Act

Anditto Heristyo is Deputy Manager of the Engineering Department in the New Business Division of Cybozu, and has spent the last 15 years in Japan practicing the cultural balancing act required of international developers. As a result, he’s become an expert at “finding his fit” both in Japanese companies and the local tech community.

Here Anditto shares his story and advice for other international developers, including:

Coming from academia

“I came here to get my Master’s at Kyoto University,” Anditto told me, “and [when] I finished my Master’s I was looking for a job, going through the whole new graduate process. It was quite a unique experience.”

I was kind of mulling over what I should do, and my professor suggested, ‘Oh, you can just continue to [get] a doctorate.’ And I was like, ‘Okay, if we can extend the scholarship.’ I did that, but then after one year I felt, ‘I don’t think this is what I want to do. What do I want to do with my future?’”

In 2011 he began job hunting again and also became involved with the local startup community, which is where he first met the people behind Digital Garage. “I actually went to one of those job fairs and I happened to see them there, because I was already familiar with them. They were apparently doing their first ever round of [fresh graduate hiring]. So even though I wasn’t actually a fresh graduate, I applied anyway, and that was basically my start here. . . . And I stayed there for about 10 years.”

When it stopped being fun

“Even during those 10 years I was sometimes looking and shopping around for other offers, but in the end the work [at Digital Garage] was much more interesting,” Anditto said. “I eventually got to work with the MIT media lab and got to meet a lot of smart people, the core contributor community in Bitcoin. You know, things like that.

“There was a lot of fun to be had and [it was a] great learning experience for me. So I stayed there for a while, until it didn’t feel as fun anymore.”

I asked him what had changed. “I was basically doing mostly Bitcoin-related things,” he explained, “mainly researching new products. But we always had issues, meaning that a lot of the time [we were] hampered by the fact that we had to deal with regulations. We couldn’t really make any successful products because it requires a Bitcoin handling license, essentially a bank license for Bitcoin, which takes a lot of resources and investment to start. So it was always uncertain, how much we wanted to invest in it from the Digital Garage side.”

Also, a lot of the products involved were basically replicating conventional financial products, just using Bitcoin instead. So that wasn’t really particularly fun for me.

Networking made job change easy

Anditto decided to job hunt again in earnest, and found it much easier the second time around.

I was more comfortable with the language of course, and I had a lot more contacts. I actually got through because I had connections in dealing with VC folks.

“At Digital Garage,” he explained, “I was involved with the investment team on many different things, like conducting technical due diligence, building proof of concepts, and assisting the Onlab startup incubator program.”

This led to his connection with the VC group Coral Capital. “I talked to them, and [the recruiter] introduced me to several companies that they were invested in. I was also applying to several different places too, but in the end, I met with Shippio and I found them to be very interesting.”

Bigger projects and teams

After almost three years as an Engineering Manager at Shippio, Anditto recently started his new role as Deputy Manager of the New Business Division at Cybozu.

“As an Engineering Manager for several years, I usually cover a lot of bases,” he said, “but currently at Cybozu I have mainly focused on the people management part. This is deliberate, as now I’m working with more people and have the capacity to delegate more things.”

It’s definitely a step up in my career, since I want to involve myself with bigger projects and bigger teams.

“I enjoy doing both the tech management and people management, but my focus has always been on what’s best and most needed for the team. Since I currently have very technically capable members on the team, I’m mainly covering the other things that need to be covered that will maximize the team’s output and success probabilities.”

His career in Japan vs Indonesia

I asked Anditto if he’d ever considered how his career might have developed if he’d remained in his home country. “I’ve never really thought about it,” he answered, “but I would say in my case, because I’m from Indonesia, there’s a lot more uncertainty.”

If you ask the average Indonesian, ‘Okay, how much do you make?’ Their answer is basically [their] monthly salary. . . . But if it’s the US or Japan, generally people would say their yearly salary, right? Because in [Indonesia] it’s a society where it’s like, you know, next month I could be making more. I could be jobless. Something might happen.

There are upsides to a more unpredictable environment. “Of course [where] there’s more uncertainty, there are a lot more chances. There’s more chaos, more opportunities.”

Japan, though, has provided him with different opportunities. “[In Indonesia] it would probably have been harder for me to meet the smart people I’ve met, during my [time] here. Working with a big, established company in Japan allows different access to different people. So that’s probably the biggest difference.”

[In Indonesia] I would probably have to go a more entrepreneurial, more ‘taking risks’ kind of route, as opposed to working harder within the company’s parameters.

Straddling two countries

Though committed to continuing his career in Japan, Anditto sees no reason why he can’t enjoy both his home country and his adopted one.

I’m trying to gear myself, career-wise and lifestyle-wise, towards where I can be sort of in both. It’s a bit greedy, so to speak, but I can say, ‘Okay, I want to be in Jakarta for the next three months’ or something like that.

“On the other hand,” he added, “I want to be able to come back to Japan, to be here in Tokyo. Also my kids [are growing] up here, and I always have to give them the option to stay here as well.”

Finding cultural balance at work

Just as he balances his life between two countries, Anditto strives for the same balance at work.

“Do you know the term, ‘the gaijin smash?’” he asked me. “Where you forget any [Japanese] norms and just bust through doing whatever you feel is appropriate for you? Of course that’s the extreme case, but the other extreme case is . . . basically you’re just like any Japanese person essentially. You lose your individuality inside because you’re just trying to conform.”

Anditto feels that international developers should avoid both these extremes. This holds true even at companies like Cybozu, which purposefully recruits a diverse international team.

We want you here because we want your individuality. We want you to express yourself so that we can get more ideas, we can push harder, do different things. But at the same time, it’s like, ‘Well, but not that much.’

He gave an example. “Let’s say I don’t drink alcohol or something like that. I don’t go drinking. But if [coworkers] say, ‘Hey, do you want to go out for drinks with us for nomikai?’ If I assert my individuality [and say] ‘No, I don’t drink, I don’t want to go drinking,’ you have to kind of think about it. This is more, ‘Hey, we want to get to know you when we hang out with you, after work.’

“So what happens if I say no too much? . . . The impression might be, ‘Oh, he’s not a team player. He doesn’t want to get to know us.’ Even though that’s why I said, ‘No, I just don’t drink. If you ask me to go do something else, I’d probably be okay.’ So it’s that kind of [cultural] gap.”

What’s a better approach to take? “You want to be clear about the expectations from both sides,” said Anditto. “Instead of saying just a straight ‘No,’ you can help smooth out the conversation by saying, ‘I don’t drink, but I’d like to hang out with you folks.’”

Career prospects for foreigners

Given that cultural gap, Anditto isn’t surprised to see few foreigners at the executive levels in Japan. However, he also doesn’t feel this is a serious problem.

“I don’t think that it’s Japan-specific,” he said. “I feel it’s also true for other companies that you would tend to pick someone that you know, that you’re more familiar with, right? . . . Naturally, especially for me, since I’ve been dealing with mostly a lot of Japanese companies, they would know more Japanese people. So to get to that level, there are going to be many more [chances] for Japanese people, and very rarely would you see any foreigners get to that sort of level.”

“That being said,” he added, “I’ve never felt personally that this was a hindrance.”

He’s noticed as well that the ratio of foreign managers is changing at some companies. “I have friends in big companies, like me, where a lot of the board members are foreigners, so obviously that’s not the case in a lot of places.”

One other positive development he’s seen is companies finding ways to promote engineers without pushing them into management. “In the beginning” Anditto said, “we’re talking like 2010, 2015-ish, there was a line where, if you don’t start doing management, your career is just not going to progress, especially in traditional Japanese companies. That has changed quite a lot, especially with newer startups. There are a lot of different options.”

Even now the traditional companies have started to change, because [they] started to notice too: ‘Hey, it’s better to make it possible so that you can continue to be a specialized sort of software engineer.’

“I had seen actual cases of senior engineers in my previous company,” he said, “where it was like, ‘We can’t give you any more money. We can’t give you a raise. We can’t give you any more progression unless you start managing people.’ . . . But again, that culture has changed a lot.”

Maximizing a Japanese salary

Since Anditto remained for 11 years with one company, then changed companies twice in the past three years, he has a well-rounded perspective on increasing your compensation in Japan.

He started with a standard fresh graduate salary: “It was between 3.5 to 3.8 million [yen] per year. I think that’s generally the same across the board.”

There’s no doubt that the easiest, biggest jump that you can make is to get a different job. That’s an open secret at this point. But depending on the company that you work in, as you progress higher, generally your compensation would be more tied to the company’s success than to your own success.

That is, of course, a double-edged sword. “If the company’s doing well, you could get much more money in terms of bonuses and things like that.

“The risk is, because now you’re more in charge and you’re more tied to the company’s success, you have to work harder and more to make that happen, right? . . . If the company isn’t doing well, then you could be making less money. I have seen people get promoted and they end up making less money.”

Your own level of Japanese

“You asked me yesterday, what kind of advice [I would give],” Anditto said, “and I had to think. In terms of the simplest piece of advice—but of course not the simplest in implementation—it’s leveling up your Japanese.

“What that means, I think, is different for each person because of your motivation and whatever life circumstances you have. But [you should] get to a level where you’re comfortable, where you’re like, ‘Okay, this is good enough for me.’ Just in your daily life, because of living here, having higher Japanese skills is good.”

I particularly feel, once I got to the level where I was already comfortable [in Japanese], a lot of career opportunities really opened up. It’s just completely different.

This especially makes sense given Anditto’s personal networking style, which is to try and be helpful to everyone he meets. “I was going to people even in interviews—I’m not saying I wasn’t interested in joining their company, but coming in I was more like, ‘Okay, I want to listen to your problems. Tell me what you’re working on, and then I will try to figure it out. How can I fit into that? How can I make that better? How can I fix it for you?’

“And of course, if you have better Japanese skills, that comes across much more easily, and it’s easier to ‘sell yourself’ that way.”

His final advice: don’t be a jerk

Aside from “learn Japanese,” Anditto offered other developers two pieces of advice.

The first is to not take things so personally, especially during the interview process.

“Again, my [interview] approach has always been like, ‘Okay, I want to listen to your problems. Let me try to figure out how we fit.’ If it doesn’t work out, it’s like, ‘All right, I’ll move on.’ . . . If you need me, we can talk.”

Since Anditto has been hiring for Cybozu, though, he’s seen many candidates adopt a less productive attitude. “I feel like some people have to sort of ‘win,’” he explained. If they’re rejected for the position, they perceive it as losing, which Anditto stressed is not the case.

“There are just so many factors to [hiring],” he said. “It could be just a random thing. . . . Try to be the best version [of yourself] that you can be and try to talk to them and just do that. Leave it at that. You don’t need to pick a fight.”

In the end, let’s be professional about it. Just because it doesn’t work out this time doesn’t mean that we can’t talk, or that we’re not going to be meeting again, or work together somehow or somewhere.

“There’s no need for you [to be] like, ‘I have to get my last word in because you did this.’ There’s no need for that. Just take the higher road and just move on.”

Anditto also cautioned developers in Tokyo to take that high road in general, not just during interviews. “Once you get into this expat tech people living in Tokyo kind of thing, it’s not that big of a population. So I find it very helpful to not be an asshole. . . . You never know who you’re going to run into again.”

Fifteen Years In Japan: Anditto Heristyo’s Balancing Act

Rebecca Callahan