(Remedied) SCP removal from the vote

[Zaijex]

Some agree, some disagree. Everyone has their own opinion.

But why wasn't there a public vote to remove it or keep it?

Regardless in what way the vote would go, we ALL (Not just the staff, but ordinary gamers as well) would then, via democracy, know whether or not it was okay to keep the gamemode or not, whether it was popular or not (even with the flaws it had).

That's just my idea/opinion - a vote or a poll (in discord or here somehow) where everyone could vote, would/could have been better, instead of a top-down decision.
Obviously I'm not talking about the reasons, but the way the decision was made - again, top-down decision. It feels like the average players were not a part of the conversation, and every civilized conversation ends (usually) with a majority consensus - except this time. Why?

P.S. - we could look at this from the other perspective - does the average players' opinion not matter? That's why we get these top-down decisions, no majority consensus among peers and equals - no vote, just a dictat?

 

[Waifers]

Even when it was unpopular Bombermod still had a public vote on whether it should be removed or not. No excuse really to take SCP out of rotation without hearing the community's thoughts at all.

 

[Jan]

democracy is biased depending on people in that democracy. Shown with the prop hunt vote like this i did having shit stirrers everywhere while bombermod vote suddenly majorly agreed. You also cant expect all forum regs to be on discord to vote or vice versa.

Either way, mode being "functional" seems to be only base thats needed for it to be kept untill it isnt for whatever reason. Now if we had more reasons to consider will be seen depending how the new reformed mod team thinks about this. Even if the modes are arguably "shit" in design or replayability.

On other hand once you find reason, how small the reason must be before any other modes apply? Redsun is gamemode madness and gamemode collecting place sort of after all.

At the bare minimum, staff should do the vote.

 

[Canardé]

Just wanted to be clear here, devs were not involved with the vote at all. When @Zane says staff, it means mods...

 

[the man of fent]

I don't like SCP being removed. Even tho there were bugs, until its unplayable/crashing it should be in rotation - moreover people like this gamemode

 

[ZeBadmedic]

I have no problem with SCP... The honeymoon time between me and it is just over. I enjoy only the rounds as SCP and when I'm D-boy, then it's mostly just a walking sim. So in my opinion we could keep it, but I'm not that sad when it's out of the rotation.

 

[Zane]

I'm going to try and explain the decision as best I can. Like I said in the announcement on discord, I do not expect complete agreement and even welcome the debate if your points are valid.
Just to be clear, I knew this decision would not sit well with the people given SCP's popularity (though I could argue it isn't as big as it was back then), however I will stand by the main reason which is the difficulty we've had moderating it since its inception in 2021. If the mode's guidelines weren't so vague, the troublesome bugs not being shrugged off because "it's in SCP", and the Karma system actually punishing BM in an effective manner, I would not have been making this push for as long as I have. Batfox blew his chance to address these problems, and I'd rather "I hate SCP" not be a coined phrase amongst the mods any longer.

That's just my idea/opinion - a vote or a poll (in discord or here somehow) where everyone could vote, would/could have been better, instead of a top-down decision.
Obviously I'm not talking about the reasons, but the way the decision was made - again, top-down decision. It feels like the average players were not a part of the conversation, and every civilized conversation ends (usually) with a majority consensus - except this time. Why?

It likely would have been a better approach, but I could also argue there would be popularity bias that would influence the vote. Not to mention there would be two different polls needed for discord and forums.
Hero Fortress and Dice Warfare were also not given this luxury, despite the former still functioning at the time with Mikusch saying its a decent alternative to Mann vs Mann and the latter still being popular but ripped out at the dev's request.

Even when it was unpopular Bombermod still had a public vote on whether it should be removed or not. No excuse really to take SCP out of rotation without hearing the community's thoughts at all.

And despite 67.4% of votes being in favor of removing Bombermod when that poll was made in July, it never was removed.
I can see that a vote would've been in line, but past pieces of content change/removal have shown this either won't matter or not make a difference.

Just wanted to be clear here, devs were not involved with the vote at all. When @Zane says staff, it means mods...

This was a fuck-up I will admit to, but in the end the input of the remaining devs with SCP knowledge that I know of wouldn't have made a difference as it would have been 4-3 at its best and 5-3 at its worst (The first number shifts because while eno didn't vote, he did agree that SCP is incredibly difficult to moderate.) and this is assuming all the aforementioned devs vote no.

Even tho there were bugs, until its unplayable/crashing it should be in rotation - moreover people like this gamemode

I am going to tie my reply to this into my closing thoughts, and this is without considering Fortress Royale which had a longstanding crash issue before it was removed.

SCP Secret Fortress as it currently stands is a ticking time bomb, both in terms of when it'll stop functioning and how many abusable bugs can be swept under the rug before we decide to just not allow any more reports on SCP offenses to be submitted because there are so many details to analyze in every action (such as is it also a thing in Secret Labs?).

Now I will not fully plant my feet in the ground about the SCP removal. I am willing to renegotiate its status in the vote, but this would require addressing the main issues at hand (lack of guidelines for proper moderation, lack of continued maintenence, karma being useless) before doing so. Popularity bias should not be the defining factor here, and just because someone expects people to just know and be okay with the fact that dying to something that hit you through a solid object is a regular occurrence does not make it any less problematic (any other mode would be on this like white on rice, and SCP should not be the exception)

 

[⫷★ΨỌしθʍⓐ∩★⫸]

i understand that it got remove because it was broken and unfair, but everytime scp appear on the vote there was 80% it would be voted, it was liked there was hype.

 

[Mikusch]

Hero Fortress and Dice Warfare were also not given this luxury, despite the former still functioning at the time with Mikusch saying its a decent alternative to Mann vs Mann and the latter still being popular but ripped out at the dev's request.

This comparison makes zero sense, both of these were removed at the main developer's request.

And despite 67.4% of votes being in favor of removing Bombermod when that poll was made in July, it never was removed.

What does that have to do with anything? Because I didn't act on those vote results due to various other factors going on at the time, you can't? Some decisions definitely don't need player input, but removing a whole gamemode is not one of those.

SCP is incredibly difficult to moderate

Based on what metric, a handful of reports a year? There were less than 10 total SCP-related bans in the 2½ years of this rule's existence.
You just brought on several new moderators, I don't think removing an entire gamemode for being "difficult to moderate" inspires much confidence.

Besides, there is always the option of changing the rules. The SCP rules were admittedly not very thought out, and between everything else you've upturned in the past 2 weeks, a gamemode-specific rule change or removal would be such a nothingburger.

lack of continued maintenence, karma being useless

What maintenance? The gamemode works fine. You can't tell me with a straight face that the entire thing is such a broken bug-riddled mess that it deserves removal.
Karma is literally just a single config value. You don't even need to be a developer to change this.

 

[Progineer]

I gotta say with how serious the community is bleeding right now they couldve asked for our input.
This is seriously gonna be problematic.

 

[Zane]

So I am prefectly willing to take this on the chin: I fucked up.
With this in mind I acknowledge I was too hasty in this decision and it will be reverted. SCP will be returning to the vote shortly.

One thing I will say though.

-snip-

While I will not disagree with your points as that would contradict the fall I'm taking here, for someone who is supposed to be "done for good" with this place you sure do seem to be failing to actually show that you are with how much you're checking our sites and talking about us.
You're either done or you're not.

 

[Mikusch]

While I will not disagree with your points as that would contradict the fall I'm taking here, for someone who is supposed to be "done for good" with this place you sure do seem to be failing to actually show that you are with how much you're checking our sites and talking about us.
You're either done or you're not.

 

[Zaijex]

Don't make my forum post a battle ground @Mikusch and @Zane , please. Wanna fight it out?, do it in private.

 

[wo]

And despite 67.4% of votes being in favor of removing Bombermod when that poll was made in July, it never was removed.
I can see that a vote would've been in line, but past pieces of content change/removal have shown this either won't matter or not make a difference.

just want to clarify something about this: while the gamemode wasn't removed, the poll did make us take the time to look at it and change it as an experiment to address complaints people had about it (a main one being that people don't respawn as blu anymore). It had some positive feedback which was what led us to keep it, and while I think not much really changed, there hadn't been another big "push" to get it removed again. If there was, we would probably have done it.

 

[JuneOrJuly]

While I will not disagree with your points as that would contradict the fall I'm taking here, for someone who is supposed to be "done for good" with this place you sure do seem to be failing to actually show that you are with how much you're checking our sites and talking about us.
You're either done or you're not

Right, because saying “you’re done” with the community automatically means you’re no longer allowed to interact at all with anything even remotely related to it, despite having taken care of it for the past 6 years and having people spreading falsehoods about your contributions after the fact.

Get a grip, seriously.

 

[⫷★ΨỌしθʍⓐ∩★⫸]

While I will not disagree with your points as that would contradict the fall I'm taking here, for someone who is supposed to be "done for good" with this place you sure do seem to be failing to actually show that you are with how much you're checking our sites and talking about us.
You're either done or you're not.

please please, talk here

 

[Nic5 Cyprus]

redsun is truly gone on the deep end, hoy shit
never in my entire life on this planet I would have predicted that Zane and Mikusch would actually fight each other (even in a passive-aggressive way)
This whole situation really does highlight the issues redsun is gonna face from now on. Nobody else knew what's best for the server other than Mikusch, I mean he kinda shaped the server to his image in many ways. It's been barely a week and one of the first decisions of the new staff members was to remove one of the most popular modes on a whim, without input from the rest of the community. The issues of scp were known for a while but they were kinda part of the experience at this point, Yes it could be better, yes it could be rewritten but just removing it is wrong

Also while I do agree with June the best thing for the server situation right now is for Mikusch to take a step back and see how things unfold. If redsun is to thrive again without him then the new mods need to learn to work without him. Otherwise the transitional period is gonna be even harder than it is. Let Zane remove scp and lets see where this goes, I get how you feel about seeing your work be mishandled by others who were not involved with it but that kinda comes with the package of retiring from redsun