If Japan’s population is shrinking, who exactly are they working all that overtime for?
If Japan’s population is shrinking, who exactly are they working all that overtime for?
It is a cultural type of thing, dedication to the company is a big deal, even if you are not really doing anything at work.
It's a cultural thing yes. I used to work in a Japanese company and for one of the projects work on site, the entire team was told to stay back after work and only clock out at 12am, because our client (a factory) is right next to our office and the boss wanted to put on an act that we're all working super hard for them
He doesn't care if all we do is just fuck around on our laptops after 6, we all even get paid overtime. He just wanted to put on a show
Kinda like the censorship thingy I bet. I'm sure all Japanese people think the mosaic censorship thing is dumb, but it's so culturally ingrained now, no politician will ever suggest to remove that law since it'll just make them a laughing stock
What a waste of money. Literally squandered capital that could've been put to better use.
On the first point, yes; I thought that they were a very efficient society based on culture; but the work life thing seems off!
I pretty much agree with the second point as well!
They’re not working the whole time. Japanese are very good at appearing to work really hard when necessary and sneaking off for a nap somewhere secret when there’s a chance. They can also nap on the commuter train and suddenly wake up when it’s their stop. And they need those naps from all the drinking the night before.
Also, a shrinking working age population should lead to people working more hours (to support a larger percentage of retirees)
What's the logic of the question?
Most people work overtime to support their family, like... their children. Not society in general.
Japan’s population is shrinking, but the work culture never adjusted. Companies still expect long hours, even when there are fewer customers and fewer workers. A lot of overtime exists just to show effort, not because the work truly needs it. Many employees feel trapped by social pressure and old rules. Over time, people stop asking why they work so much. It becomes automatic, like a habit passed down.
I have a friend who worked with the Japanese space agency for a few years. She said they were trying very hard to change this culture and so there were lots of systems you had to clock in and out of to ensure you weren't spending too much time working.
She would basically get locked out of her computer at 5pm, but there are plenty of times where you're like 10-15 minutes away from committing a task and getting it done will save hours tomorrow. As an American she found it pretty frustrating to not get to make that choice herself as an experienced engineer. But without those controls a lot of folks would just be sleeping in their cubicle to make sure they didn't leave the office before their boss, who was also sleeping.
The last part was very much my experience with East Asian work culture. People spend crazy hours at the office, but it tends to be insanely performative by Western standards. Like, a 14 hour “workday” can largely consist of DMing friends from the computer, sleeping in the office, exc. Oversll productivity is more like 2-3 hours, even if you basically live at the office.
It’s time spent at work because you look undedicated if you leave (and if you do, guess what? It’s to socialize with your colleagues).
Why would the work culture “adjust” to a shrinking population?
Did you think Japanese work culture was somehow a result of the population being too high or something? I'm baffled trying to understand how your question makes any sense
If anything if the population is shrinking, you have to work more. OP seems very confused about something.
OP's confused because they're doing exactly the thing that most people do; they default to their own environment/culture to rationalize things the best they can.
In OP's head, that's the only rational reason someone would work themselves to death. What OP doesn't realize is that in Japanese culture, fealty to the company, and to your boss (cause hierarchy), is a huge deal, as is the case in most aspects of their life. Hence, they hang around "posturing"; many aren't even doing productive work at all, it's just performative cause of optics and the culture.
How is this not the top post? The other comments are also confused, like AI hallucination
Japanese work culture is kinda toxic. especially those who r in "black" companies. basically a term used to describe a company with very old beliefs and very strict. being the last one to leave since ur seniors are still working. getting judged for taking sick days and even threatening when tryin to leave the company. to the point they will call the other company to blacklist u from that company.
Why are people telling their former employers where they are going to when they resign, Japanese labor law doesn't require it, seems like a bad idea.
There has been similar things like that happen in the US, that is why its now the norm to not say where you are going to, and to also wait 6+ months before you update your LinkedIn.
If they ask you where you are going to, lie.., What are they going to do? Fire you?
It's pretty standard practice to require professional references, so they're going to know one way or another.
yep i saw the story of the women who offed herself after working 47 hours straight then having to come back in 30 minutes after getting home
That sounds absolutely brutal like your entire life belongs to the job. No one should have to choose between their health and keeping a paycheck.
Funny thing is they are not.
At least not the majority of people that live outside of Tokyo. Show me someone in Okinawa that works overtime.
They are working to fund their own futures. Look at the age demographic charts. No one else will be there to to it.
Work expands to fill the time available
We aren't anymore. The "overwork" myth about Japan on English social media is exaggerated. Since around 2015 it improved due to the government's policy and scarce workforce. I'm Japanese and can explain about it.
My parents work at companies in Oita, which is rural town in Japan, and said that since around 2015 （when Abe administration's Work Style Reform/働き方改革 started）things have become way better than before. Sexual harassment or very toxic culture were rampant until 2000's, but now it will be punished and companies don't let people work overtime because they can't make them work with no payment, as they said.（and I've heard similar stories on SNS like X)
Professors in my university also told me stories like that.（FYI I'm majoring in chemistry) Both work-life balance and salary improved very much compared to the past, as they say.
However, for some reason this information doesn't spread abroad and foreign people still think we work 12 hours a day. Also this applies to many other exaggerated/outdated stereotypes about Japan, such as suicide rate（ours is not that high anymore. not even in worst 40 and the US, Sweden, Belgium have higher suicide rate）, conviction rate（not that different from other countries actually）, and torelance of cheating（we aren't torelant of it at all. celebrities literally lose their job over it in Japan. I simply don't get where this came from）
Fewer workers doing the same amount of work means longer hours for everyone left.
That's a bit of a myth that Japanese people work a lot of overtime. There was more of it in the 80s, but now they work fewer hours than most Western countries like the US or Europe.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_labor_hours
I think that there is an issue here in worked hours, contracted hours and reported hours.
I can tell you that a lot of companies bake an overtime loading into their contracts, which basically says "we will pay you more money but you work as much overtime as we want."
It is getting better, but there are still a lot of people flaunting the law.
What you're seeing there are the "standard" hours that are set by the government.
You also miss out on the "not work but kinda mandatory" socialisation.
The actual reason this is the case is that much of the overtime Japanese people work is off clock. They just get their regular salary but are often strong-armed in late hours once they’re at the office. Ten hour day here, oh, another same week and sometimes drinks after and a long train ride home to a Tokyo bed town. It can be grueling.
I'm from Spain and live in Japan. Looking at the statistics and talking to real people, these seem to strongly disagree. The Wikipedia article it lists Japan average as only slightly above Spain, but this is laughable to the point it feels comical. There HAS to be a bias somewhere, it's really not true otherwise. Maybe Japan includes part time workers and Spain does not. Maybe the bigger outliers in Japan fudge the numbers. There's 100% something going on here.
For example, the overtime work limit in Spain is 80 hours per year. Meanwhile, the limit in Japan is 80 hours per month on average, and 720h/year. That there are laws to limit these tells you that there's a culture the laws were trying to change.
That's very surprising to me. Either there's something weird with the data, or it's just that the "fact" was repeated so many times it stopped being true and we haven't moved on from it. Glad to hear things have improved, at least for the majority.
I'm curious about this data and wondering if US hours are inflated by the poor working multiple jobs. Having worked a white collar job that was notorious for OT in the US and now working in Japan, the desk jockies here are putting in more hours at the office than anyone I knew back home.
Again, I do not know a single person in Japan working a full time job who only does 40 hours with any kind of regularity. Almost every job I've applied to has had a stated average monthly OT of 15-20 hours. Yet back home most people I knew weren't typically working more than 40 outside of brief crunch periods.
All the developed nations are having population decline, this is not a unique Japan thing. Overtime or no overtime they are shrinking.
Living and working in Japan since 1999. It's a cultural thing. Honestly though, for most people not much actual work gets done in this extra time - some of its for show (most people). For some people (small number of people in middle management)... there is a ridiculous amount of work that never fucking stops.
I did this stupid shit for years and realized too late that it was a waste time for the company and also for myself - the company was not better served by me working 60-70 hour weeks and the company never really recognized the unpaid overtime I had to do in order to get my job done.
Thankfully, more and more people in Japan are getting smarter than I was and seeing that this work practice is unsustainable. It took COVID and a death in my family before I jumped ship and told my company to go fuck themselves.
Weirdos on Reddit, mostly.
Most people don't actually work endless unpaid overtime. It's incredibly rare to have to stay until your boss leaves. People aren't praised for sleeping at work. You aren't punished for not going drinking with your boss until last train every day, although if you never spend tine with your team it will make you look a bit antisocial.
None of it is, well, real anymore. But posts on Reddit and TikTok going "lol Japanese bad" drives engagement.
There are old, traditional companies that abuse their employees and flout labor laws, sure. But they're rare and getting rarer. The average working experience in Japan isn't that far removed from like, Canada.
Before people ask I do live and work in Japan.
Yep. All these westerners reciting old tropes from the 90s that aren’t true anymore is getting old.