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[Removed by moderator]Butchness!(i.redd.it)
submitted 9 hours ago by cunt_dykeula to /r/butchlesbians
removed comments: 93/350 (26.6%)deleted comments: 4/350 (1.1%)
[−]WrathfulLight140 points8 hours ago

God, I went to read the comments under the removed post and saw this (link to a screenshot so that the evidence doesn't disappear that easily) and it made my skin crawl. Such an extremely weird thing to say after trying to claim that you've only been moderating transphobia against trans men. Full mask off moment.

[−]WrathfulLight116 points8 hours ago

Hey mod, if you're reading this: even nonbinary people can be men, because some nonbinary people are multigender. This doesn't exactly make me feel safe in this community.

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-50 points8 hours ago

Agreed, non-binary men exist and are welcome here. Sorry if a rule about binary men makes you feel unsafe, but it needs to be in place to prevent transphobia.

[−]cunt_dykeula72 points8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

Remember when you said you would "never unironically use the term transmisogyny" like 5 minutes ago.? Is that preventing transphobia? Is transphobia exclusively when other trans people exist and mind their own business to you?

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-20 points8 hours ago

Transphobia (in this context) is when you treat trans people differently solely based on their agab.

[−]Deep-Effect-179573 points8 hours ago

I got a warning for mentioning AGAB referring to my own in passing. I'm confused about where the lines are drawn literally everywhere here.

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-19 points8 hours ago

Treating people differently based on agab is transphobic in basically every context. This includes referring to anyone by their agab.

[−]Deep-Effect-179537 points8 hours ago

I referred to my own AGAB because I'm trans. It is not transphobic to identify yourself as trans. Idgaf I'm out.

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-20 points8 hours ago

It is transphobic to other yourself from people of the same gender solely based on your agab :)

[−]ghostprada29 points6 hours ago

It's transphobic to refer to your own agab?? Like, in reference to yourself and your own experience and no one else's??? That makes no sense lmfao

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-10 points5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

Generally tes.yes

[−][deleted]1 point5 hours ago

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[−]xX_SmolVapeGOD_Xx34 points6 hours ago

I'm confused. Do you also believe someone refering to their own agab is transphobic? If so I would love to hear your reasoning behind such a statement

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-14 points5 hours ago

Generally yes

[−][deleted]1 point5 hours ago

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[−]cunt_dykeula7 points8 hours ago

By saying they experience the intersection of misogyny and transphobia? That's an objective fact. Do you also think the term misogynoir implies Black women aren't real women?

[−][deleted]1 point5 hours ago

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[−][deleted]1 point5 hours ago

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[−]NoEscape250026 points8 hours ago

I’m a binary man sometimes and nonbinary others. Am I straight when my gender is man and lesbian other times?? I’m a genderfluid person. But I identity as the gender I am at the time. If you claim to accept nonbinary people you need to understand the reality of our identities

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue13 points8 hours ago

Genderfluidity is inherently non-binary. Being a man sometimes doesn't mean your gender as a whole is binary.

[−]NoEscape250024 points8 hours ago

But when I am a man I am a lesbian and binary man. I’m not nonbinary, I am a man. It may change but to tell me that when I’m a man I’m also not is invalidating me

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue7 points7 hours ago

And the entire time you're genderfluid, no?

[−]NoEscape250020 points7 hours ago

On some level, but if you asked me I’d say no. I’m a man. And a butch lesbian. I do not like others saying I’m gender fluid, it is invalidating the way I DESCRIBE MY GENDER.

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue10 points7 hours ago

You literally referred to yourself as genderfluid first.

[−]NoEscape250014 points7 hours ago

As a fast way to explain my gender. The way I’d actually describe it currently is that I am a lesbian trans man. Months later I may say a nonbinary lesbian. But now I’m what I am now, and then I’m what I am then

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue2 points7 hours ago

Nothing your saying is actually going against what I'm saying. My stance applies to all non-binary people, including genderfluid people.

You intentionally leaving out information about your gender doesn't go against it either.

[−]NoEscape25001 point7 hours ago

Great so trans men can be lesbians because I’m currently a lesbian trans man

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue3 points6 hours ago

Non-binary people can be lesbians. You're specifically saying non-binary men can be lesbians, which is true. Intentionally being disingenuous and leaving out information isn't a "gotcha."

[−]NoEscape25001 point6 hours ago

Very weird to call my identity disingenuous. I’m not leaving out information, I’m telling you my identity and how I describe myself. I’ve told you that I do not see myself as a nonbainry man, but a man now and maybe not later, please stop trying to force a different identity on me

[−]TheQueendomKings5 points8 hours ago

I’m attributing your responses more to ignorance rather than malice. I don’t think you understand the intersection between transmasc history and lesbian history. I think you’re trying to keep transphobia out of this sub, which is valid. But keeping out transphobia by policing how trans men are allowed to label themselves is insane. It’s one thing if a random person goes around calling all trans men who are attracted to women “lesbians.” Thats transphobia. But a trans man calling himself a lesbian because he is one? Totally valid. Who is anyone to tell him that he can’t be a part of a long, rich history and culture of trans male lesbians?

Your mission to keep transphobia out of the sub is much appreciated. But please dont turn around and express transandrophobia under the guise of “keeping transphobia out of this sub.” A trans man secure in his identity as a lesbian is not being transphobic (against himself? I genuinely want to understand how it’s transphobic to self-identify). He’s expressing that he’s a part of a beautiful, deep culture that has existed between trans men and lesbians for eons.

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-1 points8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

No, I understand that historically trans men were forced into lesbian spaces and treated like women. I just think this was disgusting and shouldn't happen today. Transphobia never was and never will be "beautiful'. Historical transphobia does not justify transphobia in the present.

[−]TheQueendomKings17 points8 hours ago

My friend, you cannot possibly tell me that you know exactly how historical trans men felt. You cannot know the inner workings of, say, Stormé DeLavarie’s mind and how they felt about gender and sexuality.

If you want to understand how someone can simultaneously feel like a trans man and a lesbian, ask away 💖 It’s not transphobia. It’s my identity. It’s something I feel deep inside and if that’s not an impulse you can even slightly relate to, that’s ok. But please understand that just because you don’t fully understand it doesn’t make it “transphobia.”

[−]WanderingBadgernaut3 points8 hours ago

What the actual fuck? What a weird vitriol to have towards men while claiming to protect trans men who are actively saying they're being harmed by this.

[−]TheKrisBot3 points2 hours ago

It made your skin crawl that a lesbian subreddit isn't intended as a place for men? Come on now

[−]Additional-Problem995 pointsan hour ago

This mod is making a sub for lesbians unsafe for some lesbians.

[−]ruarc_tb-7 points5 hours ago

Men don't belong in lesbian spaces, and they shouldn't allowed. If you think that statement is offensive or somehow wrong, you need to examine your own transphobia.

[−]SneakySid377-50 points8 hours ago

People who think trans men can be lesbians don't deserve decency, like all transphobes they should be kicked out of any space they're in

[−]MissionFloor2615 points7 hours ago

What about trans men who identify as lesbians? Because that's who we are talking about here. Trans men for whom butch and lesbian/sapphic is part of their identity. We're just gonna kick trans men out of our spaces because they're trans men? Seriously?

[−]unknown_homie38117 points8 hours ago

I have so much to say about this topic and such strong feelings behind it, but at the end of the day, why can’t we just let people decide their own gender and sexuality identities. They don’t have to make sense to anyone else as long as they make sense to you.

[−]IHaveNoBeef-33 points6 hours ago

No, we can't. Because sexuality labels have been weaponsized against lesbians by men throughout history. We cannot let men identify as lesbians, because that completely defeats the purpose of what a lesbian actually is. We are women who love women.

Believe it or not, words do in fact have meaning and power. Thats why it's offensive to call someone a slur. Because of the meaning behind it.

[−]Alert-Garbage-615740 points6 hours ago

"We are women who love women"

I'm non binary, not a woman. Am I not allowed here by your viewpoint?

[−]unknown_homie3834 points5 hours ago

That was my thought. I’m transmasc/non-binary and my partner is non-binary, but we’re lesbians.

[−]IHaveNoBeef-30 points5 hours ago

Being non binary is different from being a man. We're clearly talking about men.

[−]normalizingfat22 points5 hours ago

so then you agree your generalization was wrong, and also that perhaps there are many definitions of anything based on who is talking at the time.

[−]IHaveNoBeef-1 points5 hours ago

Okay, let me ask you a series of questions. Haven't gotten a response to any of them, though, because it would force you guys to actually think critically for a second.

Are trans men real men?

Should cis men be allowed to identify as lesbians? Why?

[−]normalizingfat1 point9 minutes ago

i take issue with your word choice in “real”. i also think that at many points in my life i’ve tried to perfectly define lesbian and then met someone in real life who didn’t fit in to my definition but i could agree was part of my community. like your “women loving women” definition fell apart immediately.

are trans men real? yeah. are they a monolith or a group i belong to and thus can talk to the experience of? no. but that’s true of lots of people and i don’t try to tell them about their identity either.

[−][deleted]1 point8 minutes ago

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[−]maicil3 pointsan hour ago

“throughout history” and its only the last, like, 100 years. identity labels are literally a newer concept than that of faux leather

[−]IHaveNoBeef3 pointsan hour ago* (last edited an hour ago)

It's only been the last 100 years that men abused women and lesbians? Interesting.

Edit: or even just homosexual folks in general.

[−]maicil0 pointsan hour ago

the identity and “rules” people have created around who can identify as what is something that is so new that nobody has a firm understanding of it— it is so new that it is constantly changing. read what you wrote again: you said “sexuality labels have been weaponized against lesbians by men throughout history”. sexuality labels cannot have been weaponized because they didnt exist en masse until the fucking 1900s take any basic queer history class dude

[−]IHaveNoBeef2 pointsan hour ago

Question: whats the definition of history? You don't consider the 1900s to be a part of history?

[−]maicil-1 pointsan hour ago

LOGICAL FALLACCCCYYYYYYYYY bitch im talking greek history im talking roman history im talking etruscan history. queer identities have been here since before the dawn of fucking time and if you think how people choose to present as what you personally consider a “lesbian” has ever been in favor of your definition, well then i cant fix stupid. trans men identifying with what you’d consider a “lesbian” has truly existed since before there was a word for it. how else do you think people lezzed out when it wasn’t socially acceptable????? read stone butch blues. read the well of loneliness. take a queer history class. im begging you

[−]IHaveNoBeef1 pointan hour ago

Anyway, lets get to the matter at hand. Still havent gotten a response to this question. Everyone seems to run away from the conversation when I ask it. Gee, I wonder why. Lets see if you know the answer since you're smart enough to type "logical fallacy" in all caps.

Trans men are as valid as cis men, correct?

Do you think cis men should be allowed to identify as lesbians?

[−]maicil-1 points25 minutes ago

trans men should be able to identify however they fuck they personally want to identify

[−]IHaveNoBeef0 pointsan hour ago

How is that a logical fallacy? In my original, comment, which you quoted btw, I said "throughout history" which is a broad term. You're arguing that labels havent existed since the 1900s, so my point of lesbians and women being mistreated throughout history is somehow wrong (which its not btw. Lesbians have definitely always existed. Just like gay men)

Anyway, you're trying to discredit what I said by saying "throughout history" doesnt count because labels came into fruition in the 1900s. Unfortunately for you, the 1900s-up is a part of history. So... throughout history. Just like it said. LGBTQ+ folks have always been othered btw. Saying otherwise would be denying our existence altogether. Also, you can't just cry "logical fallacy" anytime someone proves you wrong. But im not really sure what else I expected from someone who doesn't understand the definition of words.

[−]maicil1 point57 minutes ago

it’s a logical fallacy in that youre pulling bits and points of what i’m saying and putting words in my mouth— ie saying im disregarding the 1900s when im most certainly not. its a strawman fallacy. i am saying that in the broad and larger picture of it all, identity politics are, frankly, fucking irrelevant compared to the sheer amount of time that the very identities youre policing have existed. what you would consider a trans man identifying with what you would consider a lesbian has been a thing. acting like it hasnt is a dangerous and offensive disregard to our ancestors. if you want to consider the past 100 years as being the only history that goes into coming to your conclusions, then go ahead. but know theres centuries of queer existence that goes against the boxes that were created in the 1900s. i would really like to see you touch on this part of my argument, instead of going in circles about the functional definition of “throughout”.

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue2 points48 minutes ago

Imagine all capsing "logical fallacy" when your entire argument boils down to an appeal to tradition.

[−]maicil1 point36 minutes ago

well i was screaming logical fallacy because i think its funny. my argument boils down to an appeal to history— you couldve phrased that in a much more productive way. i appreciate the chance to talk about modern history. yes, definitions and perceptions change while society progresses. that isnt a bad thing, most of the time its a good thing! it is a bad thing, however, to act like those things exist in a vacuum. if you want to think historical butches/trans men were a bad idea and we’re better off nowadays then i cant stop you from doing that. but maybe listen to those who have much deeper roots in queer history and theory telling you that that isnt true.

[−]SituationCitation112 points9 hours ago

This sub helped me feel more comfortable with my complicated trans identity when I was around 16-18. This sub was the first time I saw people who were like me, felt similar to me, and it was amazing. Not anymore. I don't know if the moderation team has changed since then but I've no longer felt welcome for a while now watching the kinds of things the mods will remove that are literally harmless or even genuine misunderstandings, you say something worded a bit too wrongly for someone else and you get removed. 

I honestly think this might be one of the most restrictive subs I've participated in. There is no discussion here. If you say something deemed wrong it will get removed, even if there was no malicious intent and regardless of how wrong what you said actually was. You have to walk on eggshells with certain discussions and topics that I don't see in any other subs despite all of the ones I participate in having somewhat overlapping traits and identities.

I also love being accepted by nowhere and nobody. I'm pretty much done with queer spaces and this is my reminder why. I'm unfortunately never going to stop being queer that part's out of my control but I'll fuck off away from everyone since I get I'm not wanted. I do hope y'all are happy, genuinely. Find some joy where I've never been able to.

[−]WanderingBadgernaut6 points9 hours ago

It's one person censoring this entire community too. It's incredibly fucked up. I'm sorry about all of this happening. It's just so incredibly messed up. The community wants you. The mod is just not in alignment with the community. And that's a huge issue. Someone made a new subreddit called r/ButchesOnT and hopefully that one is more chill.

[−]squidsateme4 points8 hours ago

Join us: at everybutchlesbian (a shell of a subreddit just created)

[−]Lezlord-6999 points8 hours ago

I am a nonbinary lesbian but people perceive me to be a man. Am I allowed? Where do you draw the line

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue44 points8 hours ago

I draw the line at people referring to themselves as binary men, I feel like I've made that abundantly clear.

[−][deleted]1 point3 hours ago

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[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue2 points2 hours ago

I've personally banned multiple binary trans men who claimed to be lesbians. I know one irl too.

[−][deleted]0 pointsan hour ago

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[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue4 pointsan hour ago

Just objectively not true. Binary men have the same gender regardless of trans/cis status. Trans men are men in the same way that cis men are, and should be treated the exact same.

[−]baldsad1 pointan hour ago

do u rly think it makes sense to treat every single trans man the exact same way in every single context as their oppressors

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue1 point53 minutes ago

All men are oppressors.

[−][deleted]1 point39 minutes ago

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[−]MissionFloor2610 points7 hours ago

And a whole bunch of trans men have asked you to stop invalidating their identity and calling trans people transphobic.

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-6 points7 hours ago

Why would I listen to transphobes?

[−]MissionFloor26142 points7 hours ago

So trans men are transphobes. That's the Hill you're going to plant your flag on?

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue18 points7 hours ago

Some of them are, yeah. Just like there are some trans women who are transphobes. And just like there are some gay men/women who are homophobic.

[−]juniperbutt2 points7 hours ago

You're talking about yourself now, denier of transmisogyny. Can't believe this sub is run by a trans fem who thinks trans fems don't face a unique intersection of oppression. Either that or you don't know what transmisogyny means

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue8 points6 hours ago

I'm not trans fem, referring to me as such is blatantly ignoring my gender.

[−]juniperbutt4 points6 hours ago

Excuse me for looking at your name, flair, and post history and thinking you were transgender and on the women spectrum

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue5 points6 hours ago

I am a trans woman, if you want to refer to my gender call me a woman. Referring to me as "transfem" ignores that I am a woman.

[−]juniperbutt0 points6 hours ago

It’s an umbrella term which includes binary trans women. You don’t need to like it, but that is the term the community at large uses.

[−]NoEscape250078 points9 hours ago

I’m literally so tired of not only not being understood but being blatantly harassed for my identity. People think they know who I am better than I know

[−]cunt_dykeula20 points9 hours ago

When 14 yo me came out as a trans man, everyone told that I was just a lesbian. Now I'm 22, and everyone tells me I'm just a straight man! And still, nobody cares what I think and what I want- now with a fun, progressive coat of paint

[−]NoEscape250014 points9 hours ago

Well we all know that evreyone else knows you better than you /j 🫩

[−]banuhzir46 points5 hours ago

its actually insane that a "butchlesbians" subreddit that will gladly welcome non-lesbians into a lesbian space and identity has decided men are too far? i would feel differently about this moderation if it was at least consistent with strictness across binaries of gender AND sexuality. this just seems like nitpicking, as is. like you actually just have to laugh.

the spirit of this doesn't feel like it is at all in defense of trans men - many of whom have strong and genuine connections to the butch community and could belong in this space, based on their unique and lived experiences... just like the rules imply bi, pan, queer folks might also feel like they belong here, despite being, categorically, not butch lesbians... lmfao.

[−]callistified7 points4 hours ago

there is immense overlap, that's why i made r/tbutch

[−]yeetusthefeetus135 pointsan hour ago

Trans men being a part of the lesbian community is our history. People having to fit into perfect little slots is not historically accurate to queerness and is actually very anti queer/queer theory.

There have been many instances of femmes within the lesbian community actually trying to discriminate against butches, mascs, studs, and transmascs/trans men. Like the origin of the "lipstick lesbian" lable. That particular lable seems to be on the way to being reclaimed. Hopefully that is the case and we arent going thru another wave of massive infighting.

A trans man does not have to identify with the lesbian community of course. But they can. ID as whatever fits you.

[−]maicil3 pointsan hour ago

more people need to take queer history classes or read books i fear we’re losing the plot

[−]advancedtaran44 points8 hours ago

Idk why the mod team (person?) Has made this such a big deal.

I don't think its fair to arbitrarily decide that something is transphobic. Especially when, presumably, they are not trans.

Why can't this he a place for all sapphics who identify with the butch label?

[−]Moon_5ugar14 points7 hours ago

At the end of the day, this is my take. I'm not a trans man. I have no right to tell a trans man what words he should use or who he is inside. His experience with gender is never something I'll have, so I need to just listen, respect, and accept. Simple as that.

Queer people are a minority. Trans people are a minority of a minority. Trans lesbians are a minority of a minority of a minority. And trans men who identify as lesbians? Yeah. That's a minority of a minority of a minority of a minority. That's a minority of trans men and a minority of lesbians, both. I'd rather offer compassion and try to understand rather than plug my ears and say, "Lalala, I can't hear you! I have this understanding of labels and identity, and I'm not willing to learn anything new! Lalala!"

[−][deleted]1 point7 hours ago

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[−]felassans26 points7 hours ago

Well, cross another lesbian subreddit off the list, I guess.

Not sure where the distinction between "trans men are butch lesbians" (untrue, pretty blatantly transphobic) and "some trans men, as well as some genderfluid and genderqueer people whose identities encompass manhood, also identify as butch lesbians at least some of the time" (a true descriptor of the experiences of people who are part of our community) is getting lost on people.

I hate to play the "don't we have more important things to concern ourselves with right now" card but, well... don't we?

[−]juliamich0417 points7 hours ago

i think this mod would have a heart attack about he/him lesbians 💀

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue6 points7 hours ago

Do you not know what sub we're on..? He/him lesbians post here very frequently.

[−][deleted]1 point5 hours ago

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[−]TheQueendomKings23 points9 hours ago

That comment was removed on this sub?? Bruh.

If this is a response to the whole “trans guys can be lesbians” being removed (on this sub of all places!!), this is extremely concerning. Hope this place— the only place on the internet where some of us feel accepted— doesn’t fall into a similar transandrophobia self-destruction spiral that infamously happened on “that other” subreddit.

[−]cunt_dykeula18 points9 hours ago

Technically, the post I left the comment on was removed. But I digress

[−]TheQueendomKings6 points9 hours ago

Was it that post screenshotting the mod here saying “saying trans men can be lesbians is transphobic”??? 😵‍💫 WILDLY ignorant take… and on a butch subreddit ffs!

[−]cunt_dykeula4 points9 hours ago

And then they tell me "you only include boydykes bc they're AF*AB! That's transmisogynist!"

Actually I've met several A*MAB lesboys and think they're super valid and awesome. Maybe it's you who's being transmisogynist?

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-17 points8 hours ago

I would never unironically use the term transmisogyny

[−]honeysyrup_13 points8 hours ago

Why?

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-19 points8 hours ago

The implication that trans women have inherently different life experience than cis women is extremely transphobic.

[−]honeysyrup_18 points8 hours ago

😭

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue0 points8 hours ago

?

[−]cunt_dykeula17 points8 hours ago

Read Whipping girl, and maybe post a public apology and delete your account in the process

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-4 points8 hours ago

Why would I ever apologize for protecting this sub from bigotry?

[−]robotsexsymbol10 points8 hours ago

You believe that a trans woman and a cis woman, and a trans man and a cis man, have had the same life experiences with no differences between them that were in any way influenced by being trans? That explains your stance on trans men being lesbians but it is very peculiar.

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-5 points7 hours ago

Yes, that is unironically my stance.

[−][deleted]1 point7 hours ago

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[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-4 points7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

I think cis men can experience misogyny in the same way that trans men do, i.e. they're can be mistaken for women even though they aren't women. People who are perceived as female experience misogyny, regardless of gender or agab.

[−][deleted]1 point7 hours ago

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[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue1 point3 hours ago

Strongly disagree

[−]Delicious_Tutor_14682 points3 hours ago

With which part? Or with just the entire thing flat out? I would've loved some specifics with this but ok 💀. Anyways, idk about you, but as someone who identifies with the trans man label, my childhood was still filled with misogyny and I still experience misogyny frequently because I can't pass at all (can't afford to transition 🥲).

[−]cunt_dykeula5 points8 hours ago

You are killing this sub.

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-1 points8 hours ago

This sub has grown substantially in the last 2 years, and I've been enforcing these same rules this entire time.

[−]cunt_dykeula8 points8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

You recently took down someone'sa selfie posted by u/AlarmedPhotograph295 just because they had a beard, do you not think that's escalating things?

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue3 points8 hours ago

I took their selfie down because it was posted on a Wednesday 🙃

[−]cunt_dykeula5 points7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

You said, in the pinned comment, it was taken down for "transphobia" iirc

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue3 points7 hours ago

No, I definitely didn't. Selfies are just only allowed on Sundays.

[−]cunt_dykeula2 points7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

Why arehave they permanentlyapparently been banned then?

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue3 points7 hours ago

?? They aren't banned; like not even a temp ban

[−]cunt_dykeula4 points7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

Regardless, why is there an entire thread worth of people saying they've been banned for being nonbinary or for mentioning being on T (link)? Am I supposed to believe they're all lying? As well as the fact that you took down a trans woman's poetry for literally just mentioning feeling inspired by trans men's Masculinity, and left a pinned comment calling her transphobic (link)

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue1 point7 hours ago

Yes actually. I only ban people who specifically state/imply that trans MEN can be lesbians. I do not ban anyone for being on T. I do not ban people for being non-binary. I do not ban people for being transmasc.

[−]cunt_dykeula1 point7 hours ago

I'm bigender, so I'm a man. Are you gonna ban me, or do you think me identifying as bigender means I'm not a real man?

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue1 point7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

I think you being bigender makes you non-binary, and referring to yourself as a trans man is an intentional oversimplification intended to stir up drama.

I also haven't banned you because you haven't specifically claimed that trans men can be lesbians.

[−]cunt_dykeula1 point7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

Ahhhhh so you do think that being bigender means im not a real man. I'm a straight trans man that's also a lesbian,- ban me, cowardhypocrite. Ive been on testosterone for 4 years and live full time as male. I'm as real of a man as literally anyone else you banned

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue3 points7 hours ago

No, I just think it means you aren't a binary man. Idk why you would conflate "binary" and "real"

[−]cunt_dykeula4 points7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

So trans men can be lesbians? So you agree that I'm a trans man and a lesbian? So you're gonna change the rules?

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue4 points7 hours ago

NBs can be lesbians :)

[−]cunt_dykeula-1 points7 hours ago

I'm a man you transphobic freak. Being nonbinary doesn't change that. If you wanna ban men, you have to ban me.

[−]GlitterLich17 points8 hours ago

you cannot be for real. for the love of queerkind pass the mod baton to someone else already jfc this is embarrassing

[−]mikacchi1112 points8 hours ago

you can not be serious

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[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-2 points6 hours ago

I'm not treated any differently than a cis woman 🤷‍♀️

[−]juniperbutt3 points6 hours ago

Your experience is not universal

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-1 points6 hours ago

No, but claiming that "trans women are treated differently than cis women" goes directly against my, and many other trans people's, experiences.

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[−]Convienient-OP22 points8 hours ago

I didn’t know this sub had transphobic rules towards lesbian trans men… it’s ridiculous that rule four is “never tell anyone else what their sexuality is!! If a trans man is also a lesbian that is inherently transphobic though”

[−]SneakySid377-26 points8 hours ago

No it doesn't have transphobic rules, the mods are trying to remove ppl who think that trans men can be lesbians ie trying to remove transphobes

[−]Convienient-OP7 points8 hours ago

I’m sorry who are you to say if a trans men identifies as a lesbian he is not a lesbian? Don’t go around policing other people’s identities under the pretence of protecting them

[−]voidang3l22 points7 hours ago

can someone give me the TLDR on what happened here

[−]PartySecretary_Waldo17 points7 hours ago

TLDR: some binary trans men identify as lesbians due to their complex relationship with gender and sexuality. Some people feel that this is transphobic and denies other people's identities

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[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-27 points7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

Someone wrote a poem where they called "t-boys" lesbians. I gave them a warning to not be transphobic, so they doubled down on it and made another post. A lot of people responded in kind by treating so I've been banning them all.

I thought this sub was welcoming of transmasc lesbians (which I am, and I call myself a t-boy, and I am nonbinary)—why would you assume that was transphobic and not the normal broad usage of the term? I know lots of people who call themselves t-boys, trans guys, etc. who also are nonbinary

[−]oregyaru22 points7 hours ago

Can we organise ? If anyone feels like to create a subreddit for butches and dykes identities, made by and for genderfreaks, actually subversive and embracing all the flavours of dykness, I would follow. English is not my first language and I DO NOT have the shoulders for this. But I would follow anyone making a new, actually safe and subversive place. Please feel free to organise under this comment. Sincerely, a femme whose gender is "dyke".

[−]oregyaru9 points7 hours ago

Here are the new subreddits : r/ButchesOnT and r/everybutchlesbian !

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[−]IncreasinglyTedious17 points8 hours ago

I'm genuinely trying to understand the points of view being expressed because I'm not really confident I understand either side;

If "people who identify as men" (regardless of their assigned/presumed gender at birth and/or transgender status) can be lesbians, what is the meaning of "lesbian"?

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[−]Lopsided_Edge_387115 points6 hours ago

so like am i cool to be here as a transmasc butch? or like am i gonna get banned

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[−]WanderingBadgernaut13 points9 hours ago

At the risk of getting banned, I think it's incredibly concerning that one person gets to decide how an entire community talks about itself without any wiggle room for understanding. Can you imagine if the bouncer of a gay bar only let you in after you relented and called yourself by the label they gave you? That would be insane and forcing people to have a squeaky clean perfect no confusion label here is just as ridiculous. Who is that mod to tell anyone how they experience being butch? I didn't realize they were there when the term was invented and wrote the Butch Bible. And I can't help but notice the irony in their past comments talking about how bisexuals can know how to define themselves but apparently trans men can't. So are trans men and trans mascs stupid by that logic? Is this seriously how they understand being queer? They're already crossing their own arbitrary lines. Either butch has a strick meaning or it doesn't. It's an abuse of mod power and I wish reddit had a way for communities to vote or report mods out. This isn't their personal blog. This is a community with real people.

[−]Last-Laugh792813 points7 hours ago

it's always been silly to draw this arbitrary line that "if you identify as 99% a man and 1% nonbinary then fine you can be a lesbian, but if you identify as 100% a man then you can't be a lesbian" and it's very disappointing to see the moderators of this sub fall into that trap.

holding this silly line does not protect trans people! trans men can be lesbians if they want! a transphobe does not understand the useless nuance you are trying to create; they will disrespect any and all of us regardless. who do you think you're helping by banning trans people in your own community?

[−]juliamich0411 points7 hours ago

LET ME KNOW WHEN THE NEW SUBREDDIT GETS CREATED

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[−]TopRhubarb9 points6 hours ago

Not a big fan of drama, but man I used to think this sub was chill. Actually, I'm willing to bet most of the userbase really is cool and not trying to dictate other people's gender. Obviously many trans men don't consider themselves lesbians, but that's up to them to decide.

[−]zoedegenerate9 points6 hours ago

wild vibes from this mod, they genuinely seem to be going on a transphobic power trip

[−]cafejupiter9 points6 hours ago

fuck closed-minded hair-splitting exclusion (so fuck this sub) 💕

[−]gn-sweet-prince7 points6 hours ago

If anyone wants to start a subreddit that is actually inclusive of butch identities hit me up. I’ll mod for you lol. Gonna go use he/him pronouns in a big dyke way in honor of this stupid internet drama 🫡

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[−]squidsateme6 points9 hours ago

I created a new community r/everybutchlesbian — it is literally a shell at this point, but I’m too old for this kind of exclusionary crud. It’s not good for anyone.

[−]piewife3 points17 minutes ago

Yeah, gonna leave this sub after reading the mod comments in here. Butchness is complex and butches have complex relationships to gender as a whole. I’ve seen trans men identify as lesbians online and irl and it’s only online that anyone has a problem with it. You can’t define where someone falls on the gender spectrum for them, and that’s what this mod is doing. Not here for it tbh

[−]cunt_dykeula1 point10 minutes ago

Probably bc the difference between a nonbinary transmasc and a trans man is very rarely apparent or relevant irl, if I had to guess.

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue1 point8 hours ago

Your comment has not been removed lol, wild post

[−]squidsateme112 points8 hours ago

Respectfully, could you better explain how you’re moderating? Because it seems that you’ve banned quite a few folks, and I saw nothing disrespectful in that larger post.

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-147 points8 hours ago

Sure, please refer to our rules on the sidebar. Referring to trans men as lesbians is transphobic and breaks rule 4. Our sub has a zero-tolerance policy for transphobia.

[−]Lezlord-69135 points8 hours ago

Isn’t there also a rule that says no policing someone’s identity? Surely that conflicts with your personal feelings on this matter

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-41 points8 hours ago

Yes, that rule specifically does not apply to inherently transphobic identities. Please read the rules before commenting on them.

[−]Lezlord-69105 points8 hours ago

I don’t think you understand the rules even as a mod. It is not transphobic to say transmasc people can be lesbians. You’re completely erasing nonbinary lesbians from the spectrum. Youre pushing femininity standards in a butch lesbian sub.

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue21 points8 hours ago

Correct transmasc people can be lesbians. Trans men, however, cannot be. Again, please read the rules before commenting on them.

[−]Lezlord-692 points8 hours ago

No one said trans men…and if they identify as lesbians they can. You’re missing the point. Read stone butch blues ffs

[−]RatsnBaskets1 point7 hours ago

They didn't say transmasc people can't be lesbian tho. They said trans MEN. Ofc transmasc people can be lesbian.

[−]Additional-Problem991 pointan hour ago

Trans men can also be lesbians. That’s the beauty of queerness. The labels you choose to use are up to no one but you. No one gets to dictate who or what you are but you.

[−]RatsnBaskets2 pointsan hour ago

I didn't choose the lesbian label. I'm lesbian because I don't like men and I'm a woman so that's what I am. People just don't want women/non men to have their own spaces away from men.

Y'all are the same people that like to say that sexuality is fluid and trying to push men on people that don't want them. God forbid a sexuality/identity excludes men.

[−]Additional-Problem991 pointan hour ago

Sexuality IS fluid. Not sure what your point is there.

No one is saying you have to be attracted to men. But if a man is a lesbian, who does that hurt? No one else knows your sexuality or gender as well as you know your own. Why gatekeep and kick out valid people just because they aren’t just like you?

[−]burgereater277 points7 hours ago

Don’t you think it’s transphobic to police trans people’s identities? Don’t you think it’s transphobic to act like trans people can’t decide for ourselves the labels that best describe our gender and sexuality?

[−]squidsateme96 points8 hours ago

Additionally, again respectfully, if you don’t want butch folks here who may identify as male, why delete a post where I suggest an alternative subreddit? I checked the rules, my post wasn’t disrespectful— is there a rule against suggesting another subreddit?

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-48 points8 hours ago

There's a rule against spreading transphobia. Why would I allow you to share a subreddit created on the basis of allowing transphobia?

[−]GlitterLich95 points8 hours ago

every comment you make is a new low it's wilddddd "only my understanding of transidentity is valid, anything else is transphobic! btw I have read zero literature on the subject and my understanding of queerness has been shaped entirely on tiktok" I can't 😭

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-18 points8 hours ago

Assuming i haven't read any queer theory or queer history is wild.

[−]GlitterLich64 points8 hours ago

admitting that you actually choose to be this ignorant is incredible

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-1 points7 hours ago

I actually choose to remove transphobes from this space :)

[−]GlitterLich1 point7 hours ago

interesting that they all magically happen to be trans people who have a different lived experience of gender. it could almost be called... transphobic? you're a disgrace to the queer community

[−]squidsateme90 points8 hours ago

When you say “our” are you the only mod?

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-67 points8 hours ago

I'm the most active mod fs

[−]broccolicheddarluvr99 points8 hours ago

listen to those in the sub then. be amenable to change and understand that you do not know everything, therefore shouldn’t be policing folx identities etc. this should be a place welcoming for all

[−]IHaveNoBeef-53 points8 hours ago

Men can't be lesbians, though. If they've transitioned into a male, then why are they still identifying as a lesbian? Lesbians are strictly women loving women only.

[−]broccolicheddarluvr12 points8 hours ago

yes they can 💋 read a book

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[−]RatsnBaskets-7 points7 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

Ofc people are mad at you for saying that men can't be lesbians.

Edit: Lots of angry men downvoting me for stating a fact. Who woulda thought that misogyny/homophobia is rampant on reddit. You people are no different than the homophobes telling lesbians that they haven't found the right man.

[−]IHaveNoBeef-5 points7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

Oh, you should've seen their response to me before it got deleted.

She said "yes they can 💋 read a book" lmfao

So, what is a lesbian then? What do I call myself now that lesbian no longer meanmeans women loving women.

[−]zoedegenerate0 points6 hours ago

probably a lesbian. I dont know why it's so difficult for yall to accept other people also being lesbians.

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-57 points8 hours ago

Why would I pander to transphobes?

[−]bottomlessinawendys51 points6 hours ago

You’re calling trans people who are telling you they identify as butch… transphobic??

[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue-36 points6 hours ago

I'm calling trans men who think they should be treated differently than cis men transphobic.

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[−]sevenarcticsheep5 points8 hours ago

Someone identifying themself as both a lesbian and a trans man is not transphobic. Respectfully, what the fuck are you talking about?

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[−]RealityIsSexy-36 points8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

Makes sense to me. Man can't be lesbians.

[−]broccolicheddarluvr4 points8 hours ago

wrong 😎

[−]RealityIsSexy-21 points8 hours ago

Lol words have no meaning anymore.

[−]unclewolfy0 points7 hours ago

Language does and often changes. Queer has been reclaimed. No one’s MAKING you accept transmasc or butch lesbians, but it’s wild how butthurt you are about this. “Wahh, in my space!” Fine, then make a more exclusionary space for yourself and your fellow gatekeepers. Then I’ll watch your pikachu face when that group finds a reason to erase you, next. Infighting helps no one, you and this mod must be very sheltered and chronically online.

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[−]theregoesmymouth-30 points8 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

Love a meta community post with no context. What are you trying to achieve by posting a screenshot with no commentary at all, especially as your comment wasn't even removed so it's not evidence of anything?

Wow downvotes for wanting a post to make sense, what a bunch of absolute children you are

[−]IHaveNoBeef-5 points5 hours ago

Ill fill you in on what i know. Basically, someone posted a poem calling t-boys lesbians. It got deleted because it suggested that trans boys can be lesbians, which is technically invalidating towards transgender men by referring to them as lesbians which traditionally means wlw.

Anyway, now people are saying that trans men can be lesbians. That opens up an entire can of worms because trans men are valid as men. Lesbianism is the only sexuality that excludes men from it. However, because these people have decided to accept trans men as lesbians, we are also being asked to accept cis men as lesbians as well which completely destroys the meaning of the word.

Non-binary folks are being dragged into it, because, apparently, excluding men from identifying as lesbians also somehow means that non-binary folks are also being excluded.

Basically, words and identities have no meaning anymore and women are being forced to accept men into their spaces. Shocker, I know. Don't even know why these people still choose to label themselves as anything if they seriously think it doesn't matter.

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[−]PinkWhiteAndBlue1 point3 hours ago

The point is that trans men should be treated exactly the same men as cis men. Claiming one thing about trans men while claiming the opposite about cis men is transphobia.

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