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Oof this is seriously disappointing, I thought this sub was a safe space for transmasc lesbians of any kind
I think the community of this sub is very much that way considering the responses I've gotten with my poetry which states this very clearly... genuinely might just be one or multiple mods who have their heads on backwards.
The single active mod on this subreddit takes large issue with anything that goes near the idea that a binary transgender person is not the gender they are, fully and completely. I have an amount of sympathy for her thought process (because I hate if anyone treats me as anything other than a woman and would be incredibly insulted if someone said I could be a gay man) even if I don't agree with it personally and think it's wrong to stop people saying it about themselves. But yeah It's been coming out like this for quite a while, in this subreddit you can't say that trans men can be lesbians. Trans masculine non-binary lesbians are generally welcome though.
as a he/him dyke on T, I kinda take offence in that?
Hey, listen. For the longest time I had no idea I can present masculine AND be a lesbian. I thought I was a trans man and I felt like shit because it felt okay, but not quite? Deep down I knew this is right, but something was off and I didn’t know what or why. I feel like I finally found my true self when I discovered butchness.
“I haven’t felt that since childhood, that must mesn I am faking it” NO. I was just deeply influenced by low-to-none selfesteem, non-existent resources and no people to look up to. And don’t even get me started on complusory heterosexuality.
I’m very curious what sort of culture you grew up in where this was the case? Maybe because we had family friends who are butch lesbians, I was more exposed.
I mean I'm not the person you asked, but I'd never seen a bitch lesbian or ANY lesbian until I began dating girls myself. There simply were none in my shitty hometown, and things were different in the 90s and 2000s. People weren't as open and it was more rare to see out and proud people, at least outside cities and definitely not in my suburban town
I didn't see the original post but I'm here throwing my hat in as a nonbinary masc woman who's going to go get dick surgery, with a he/him lesbian boyfriend.
Nice job standing up for us by deleting the words of one of us. The butch experience, the transmasc experience, the trans male experience, the non-binary experience and the overall experience of walking through the world with most people viewing you as a man have extreme fucking overlap AND WE ARE ALL KIN, AND WE ALL BELONG. EXCLUDING ONE OF US IS EXCLUDING ALL OF US.
One of the trans groups is missing 🤔
Which one? I am genuinely clueless
they're trying very hard to find some shit to pin down as transmisogyny cause a trans woman (me) opened her mouth and they need an excusable way to shut it down
I agree with your post generally but it is transmisogyny that every fucking time someone lists out trans identities linked to butchness they don't say trans women. Her comment was not shutting you down.
This is a post calling out transmasc erasure.
Transfem lesbians exist, trans women who are lesbians exist. I am one.
Read the above comment within the context of my post rather than in the purposely decontextualized vision that's construed to derail it.
To try and shoehorn a post talking about transmasc erasure to be transmisogyny is sealioning of the highest order.
They weren't just "listing out trans identities linked to butchness", they were talking about the ones that this post talks about being erased.
Besides that: I've even made a post calling out transfem erasure in butch communities DAYS ago which wasn't deleted by the mod who deleted my poem speaking of solidarity and inclusion of transmasculine butches and dykes.
dare i say it's transandro-phobia that people are trying to make a post about trans men/mascs and make it about trans women?
Well, clearly you do dare, there's no need to couch your language. But it's not the case, because there is no societal force of "androphobia" that can overlap with transphobia to cause compounded oppression. Not to say there aren't problems that trans guys face, but they're not caused by "transandrophobia" and it's ridiculous to use a word that only exists because men feel left out whenever women talk about their problems.
That being said, I don't want to take a post about trans men and trans mascs and make it about trans women, but I will raise issue if someone is being transmisogynistic by listing identities with links to butchness and leaving out trans women, and I will raise issue again if someone deliberately ignores the substance of my complaint about that behaviour to make out like it was in any way disparaging or ignoring the very real issues facing trans masculine people raised by the original post.
Edit: You're being so nice when you reply calling me a transphobe and then block me so I see it but can't say anything about it. Despite the fact that I regularly stand up against the misogyny and transphobia that many trans guys/mascs do face - because I think it's awful (just look at the framing of irreversible damage! Objectively based in misogyny! As is transphobia at its core) - you are calling me transphobic for asking for anyone to not be transmisogynistic, or for caring about the feminist analytical base of the word transmisogyny, because you have spent too much time arguing online to take anyone in good faith.
Has this person never encountered he/him lesbians, and are they unaware of how many dykes are on T? Also having looked at some of their other posts they seem to have such a weird view of what is and isn't transphobic that I, identifying as a transfem butch, i.e, someone transitioning in a feminine way but presenting masc, would probably be called transphobic for my own lived identity by them. I hadn't interacted with this sub before today, but having seen this and knowing this person is a mod, I immediately know I would not be made welcome here
oh :( I thought your poem was beautiful and it resonated with me quite strongly as someone who’d probably be considered ‘transmasculine’. what is your tumblr so I can read more of your works?
you can find me at
Dykehood should be, must be, IS, a Wide Tent. To push out one is to make room for somebody else to push you out too. There are enough forces trying to break us from the outside, let's not make it worse by trying to divide ourselves from within. This trans woman, this transfem butch, this butch-as-gender-identity She/They lesbian, stads whole-heartedly beside her tranmasc, trans man, boydyke, lesboy, tomboy, he/him lesbian brothers forever and for always. Solidarity Forever!
Eyo is this true? Fucking ban me then cause this is the most disgraceful thing I’ve ever read.
Old school butch here.
Like mods get your heads out of your asses for real. People like y’all are the reason why when I was an active deputy during Trump’s first term, this kind of rhetoric got trans people of all kind killed and the community stood by and did nothing.
Now look where we’re at. Read the fucking room for real. Holy shit such a disappointment.
It’s sadly not surprising to me that people don’t understand intersectionality and sexuality at any point.
Did people get killed over trans men not being counted as lesbian?
This isn’t the trauma Olympics.
Fully expecting to get banned for this so see ya around! ✨
wait, fr? yeah, really fucking transphobic to imply that my identity as a trans person could ever exist, obviously the True Ally thing to do is ban all trans men from your space
it's such bullshit in itself, it'd be transphobic to say "all trans men are actually just lesbians", it's the opposite of transphobic to say that gender and identity are fucking complex and some people who identify as transmasc or even trans men STILL identify as lesbians or dykes... real head scratcher when you look at our shared history and experiences, such a mystery but no... it's the kids who are wrong!
looking at ops profile, i’m hazarding a guess that she’s a trans woman? if so… girl, this is extra hurtful coming from you. alienating other trans people is not ever the move, especially not in this current political moment. gender will always be fluid and messy, and there will always be people on the edges of that with “weird” or “conflicting” identities, and we can get stuck in the weeds of where the line should be instead of like. getting up and erasing the whole concept of any line.
Do people not know the difference between trans male and trans masculine anymore???🥲
..did they even read Stone Butch Blues? 👀 Not that they need to. Surely knowing any of us identifying as trans and butch would be enough?
Wait.. do they seriously not know any trans masc butches? Any butches on T? Any he/him butches? Heck any trans enby butch? Honestly, I don't know why this innocently oppressive admission isn't a scandal of a level that the mod in question steps down from their role. Time to "meet your community," mod, and I hope there is a free history lesson there for you.
Hi. I am a trans masc he/they gender fluid butch lesbian in a loving partnership with a queer Femme. I .. am definitely not alone. 😂
transmasc ≠ trans man
correct. and both identities can be lesbians.
How can a man be a lesbian? A trans man is not an ex woman, he is a man in his own right
so get this: every single human being has a unique and personal experience with their gender identity and sexuality, and every single human being will ultimately have a different set of words they connect with and use to describe said identities. its not our place as queer people to police the language other queer people are using, and its not our business if we think someone is “mislabeling” themself.
So get this: labels describe specific experiences so people can find community, and ultimately, we will all fit into different communities that will have some overlap but they are specifically distinct, because that what makes communities communities. As queer people, and specifically as lesbians (idk about how you identify) we have been told to include men into our spaces and lives and told that we should dull down out experiences and ignore who we are to coddle the patriarchy, same with trans men being told to just be okay with being called lesbians. It is not policing to point out the inherent lesbophobia of claiming that lesbianism includes manhood. You can do what you want, but you are not doing it in isolation. This exists in the context of everything and everyone else, and it is hurting everyone else. It is not radical for a man to be a lesbian. Labels have community set meanings, and lesbians specifically don't include men/manhood. Queerness is not being aimlessly controversial, it is about communities, anticapitalist liberation and solidarity between these communities.
"trans men being told to just be okay with being called lesbians" is a DIFFERENT argument, one that we are NOT making here. This is about self-identifying transmasculine lesbians, who claim both "man" and "lesbian", being allowed to be respected and represented in their community, OUR community, the community of butchness and dykehood and masculine souls and feminine hearts interteined, and how NOBODY should be policed out of it.
Sexuality and gender identity is weird. There are a lot of reasons someone in their gender may gravitate towards more masculine terms or see themselves as a man while still describing themselves as a lesbian. You are conflating people being forced to accept labels they do not personally apply to themselves with people labeling themselves in ways you've decided they don't deserve. No one gets to be the arbiter of how someone else self identifies, and if someone expressing themselves freely bothers you that much, at a certain point you have to get over yourself. You can't complain about being forced into boxes and having to censor yourself for the patriarchy while acting like you know what boxes people really go into and the people you've put there need to shut up for your comfort. This kind of mindset is how we get trans women can't be lesbians. This is how we get gold star lesbians who will tell others they're not real lesbians. You can't create the kind of community you're talking about while simultaneously policing everyone involved to make sure they're really supposed to be there.
You don't have to understand why these people's experiences with being a lesbian doesn't go with your own, but that doesn't give you a right to act like you know how to label other people better than themselves.
I don't think you are arguing in bad faith or actively being transphobic, but I do think you need to reflect on why you're getting a negative reaction and whether or not the standards you are trying to force on the community offer any material benefit or exist just to make you feel more comfortable knowing your definition is right.
If a trans man wants to use the label “lesbian,” who are any of us to say he can’t? That’s some gatekeeping bullshit. The important thing is using terms people want you to use for them. Don’t call every trans man a lesbian, but if there is a trans man lesbian, don’t deny his experience.
Your butch dad here: contributor blown-transmission is clearly not operating in good faith and should probably be ignored. None of you need to validate your identity to a person who is using their pain as a weapon.
Just wanna say, if I’d ever want a label, I’d want to be called “Butch Dad”.
I’m envious.
All you have to do is get old, and be willing to throw down for your people, and it’s yours!
I would fight for the right for any and all of us to exist. This entire thread is reductive— mods are interpreting specific language as transmisogyny, without appreciating the incredibly nuanced language with which some butch folks navigate the world.
Shit I’m only in my thirties but I’ve already dedicated my career to protecting our people and racial injustice. I’ve suffered for it and am permanently disabled.
There were even times I was thinking of transitioning into a trans man myself, but ultimately I felt comfortable just being a tired butch lesbian.
I understand the plight of trans men and trans masc alike and the erasure that happens constantly.
And yeah I agree with you.
I’m gonna continue to fight for us and our community while I live. It’s just silly that this kind of splintering is happening while a fascist Regime is openly attacking us.
Yet here we are.
I’m very confused as to what in that poem implied you were a trans man/implied you said trans men were lesbians. The best I can think of is the reference to t-boy, but even that’s just gender fluid/trans masc more than anything to me. I wonder what the other mods will think about this.
Multiple of my posts that were talking explicitly about the overlap between transmasculine experiences, manhood and butchness were deleted by the mods without comment and my messages asking for clarification were repeatedly ignored so I get the feeling that one or multiple mods have a very simplistic and binary idea of "who's allowed to be a lesbian".
When the rules start by saying “don’t invalidate anyone’s stated gender identity or sexuality” and then turn around and say “except trans men who say they’re lesbians, they’re actually being transphobic to themselves,” THAT is not only a contradiction but transphobic as all hell.
I consider myself a nonbinary trans man and a lesbian. So mods, go ahead and bend yourself into a pretzel deciding which half of your own rule to follow about whether my existence is real.
Words have meanings.
And those meanings are determined by the people who use them, most especially people who identify by them.
If what you said has no coherent meaning for the other people, either they don't know the words are you are saying or you are saying gibberish.
Talking about gibberish and then fucking up your own comment.
True, i was typing on the phone and the comment got wrong.
Yet you still understood the meaning.
Can you explain me what it means to be nonbinary trans man lesbian?
For me, it means I don't fit neatly into the gender binary (nonbinary) but I identify strongly with masculinity and have particular experiences of gender transition (trans man), and I am primarily and possibly exclusively attracted to women in a way that feels and looks very fucking gay, in part because I am perceived by society as a woman (lesbian).
None of that even requires a particularly complicated or unusual definition of any of the words involved, and could be arrived at by anyone who cares to think about it for a few minutes before policing strangers' identities on the internet.
Yeah and we made up the fucking meanings. Along with the language and every word in it. Congratulations you’ve discovered context.
Lets stop using language then? Why do we even use a shared common languages when we can make up a new personal language that doesn't have meaning for other people. Just start barking to communicate
Oh and you’re really not gonna like this, new languages are made up all the time and have new meanings to words.
In other words, change is inevitable. In both language, meanings, identity, and the world that we live and breathe in everyday.
We as humans attempt to form some type of consistent system to categorize people in an ever changing world.
That is some irony. To truly think that a person is just “one thing or another” when every cell in their body constantly changes everyday.
It is not that I've never seen the words nonbinary, men, lesbian... it is that the meaning of men do not fit with the other two. We are not talking about cells, we are talking about gender identity and sexuality.
Even so, sexuality is fluid, and changes. It’s not stuck in a binary. I mean you’re literally the example of this. Not to be on the nose about this, by but using your own logic here, the term “trans” sharing root words with transform, transcending, etc meaning to change.
Idgaf what fits and doesn’t fit, because at one point gay people didn’t fit into society either.
Now look, we’re so normalized we’re having an argument over who can be included under what label within the community.
Sexuality is fluid. Intersectionality exists, and I know we differ in opinion, but I don’t care what you call me.
In the end I will defend your right to exist, I will defend that you are apart of our community and I will not exclude you.
I don’t need labels to define who I am, as I’m comfortable with my being and who I love. It’s really that simple for me.
“The implication that trans men can be lesbians is transphobic…” — respectfully, mods, do you know your queer history? Have you read about the different modalities for expressing transness and gender nonconformity as it is related to the butch identity?
This is incredibly disappointing, and flatly, it’s just incorrect.
The same queer history treated trans women as feminine gay men.
Miss me with that. I support our collective liberation.
Why? Do you not support trans women married to woman to be called heterosexual? That feels transphobic isn't it. Do you not support Buck Angel being a woman because he said so
if a trans woman wants to call her relationship with another woman heterosexual, that’s literally not my fucking place to say anything about??? as is for literally every single persons individual identity.
I would call out self transphobia.
You think we should police trans people’s identities? You think turning queer spaces for them into debate zones will make their lives better?
There needs to be common understanding and language if we are going to fight against conservatives. They also call trans men confused lesbians, would you say thats ok and not transphobic bc some trans men are lesbians?
because implying trans people are too stupid to understand their own identities is better? that’s the attitude we want, here?
Some are. Do you think Buck Angel is a woman?
You are clearly angry about something, and I’m sorry for that; I’m sorry if you’ve been harmed by transphobia. I won’t be baited into an argument because the queries you’ve posed aren’t doing the work that you think they are. Find a way to heal, friend. This sub is the least transphobic sub I’ve ever been part of, and you can either choose to be embraced by that, or, you can continue to lash out and remain isolated.
Guess I'll unfollow the sub. Sigh so hard to find good places
As a he/she/they transmasculine (as in transitioning towards a masculine presentation) butch lesbian trans woman, who's currently 6 months on T after 5 years on E... Like, listen, if lesbians can still accept me and want me around, clearly this identity is about something more than who can best affix a misogynistic stereotype or tradition to it. No lesbian IRL has ever doubted or questioned this about me, just cishets, because it is just.. eminently true if you meet me.
In summary, haters touch grass.
PS: I actually hate being a special little snowflake whose gender and sexuality needs so many words to articulate. If this mixture wasn't the only spot where my dysphoria stopped, I would have let myself land somewhere that wouldn't make me feel constantly misunderstood by random people on the train or in class.
Guess that my existence is transphobic because at times I’ve identified as a trans man and a lesbian or sometimes both together
Yeah you got it, exactly right. Trans people can be transphobic too! You for example
commenting to boost visibility of this shit on the sub. @/pinkwhiteandblue is a trans woman, and she’s acting this transphobic about trans men?! as a trans woman and butch adorer this shit is embarrassing
Unfortunately, in my experience in online spaces trans women tend to be some of most transphobic towards trans men. Just look at the response to terms like transandrophobia or just anything where trans masc folks want to talk about themselves. It's why I avoid most online queer spaces. I feel like some of the folks who get so in the weeds about this could really benefit by seeking out a real world queer community. It's very healing being in places where instead of having your identity disected to decide if you meet some arbitrary metric that makes you worthy of a label, you can just be yourself.
Yeah my post got removed bc apparently i implied binary trans men could be lesbian, even tho I literally specified I was a NBY trans man. People in this sub seem to be very sweet, mods seem to be very strict on what should be considered butch, which is transphobic lol.
This is a genuine question, not in any way meant as a judgment or indictment, I just want to understand/educate myself: how do you ID as NB and a trans man?
I thought NB was supposed to be outside of the binary and I’ve always understood trans men/women to be binary in that way. I understand transfem/trans masc as NB as I, myself, am NB trans masc but the terms man/woman, theused in tandem with non-binary terms are confusing.
You don’t have to explain yourself if it makes you uncomfortable, and you certainly don’t owe it to me to explain. I just figure it’s better to ask a person with these identifiers to understand best. Again, no judgment! Just curiosity and mild confusion!
I can’t answer for this commenter, but “non-binary” covers absolutely everything that isn’t strictly either a man or a woman. So a bigender person who is fully a man and a woman is non-binary, but also a man (and a woman). The same goes for any other combinations of multi-gender/fluid gender identities.
Additionally, some people self-describe as “trans man” because that’s how they’re read by the world at large, not necessarily because “man” is their (entire) gender.
Are you a trans man or not?
I’ll let you reread my comment before I answer
I would say you are a man commenting on a lesbian sub.
This sub literally states it’s for butches of different sexualities, not just butch lesbians. And yes I am a man, very astute of you to realize, but to you I’m a trans man not just a man bc you don’t seem to understand the nuance
I didn’t want to comment, cause I hate this strain of discourse, but I have seen the kind of backwards “only binary women can be lesbians, and any lesbian who isn’t is either a faker or a trans man” on Tumblr, and I see it’s popping up in the comments here too. (I’ve even seen someone claim that all lesbians who are on T are actually trans men, but we’re “too scared of having to accept our privilege over another group” to say it out loud.)
I’m really, really tired of seeing this kind of discourse, especially because the moment people speak out against it, there’s frequently some amount of sealioning and name calling.
Anyway, my opinion is that niche, genderfucky identities like butch live in the margins of things. Sometimes boundaries blur between the binary options people want to enforce.
This is so disappointing- I literally found this subreddit after learning the main ftm sub Reddit bans mentioning he/him lesbians.
WAIT IT DOES???
Well, actually not anymore- they used to have a rule that mentioning he/him lesbians caused too much controversy, and they simply didn’t have enough people on the mod team to manage the hate that would come. A bunch of us made posts about it a few months ago, and they ended up changing the rule. I made a post about how that was an awful excuse, and figured I’d get banned, so started looking for other subreddits. I’m trans masc and use they/them myself, but I’m also early in my transition- what if I want to use he/him later? I’m also dating a trans man, and our relationship is incredibly lesbian.
I’ll go double check right now what the stated rules are!
I’m on T and so are lots of my butch friends, and some of them are trans dudes too!
Is there a point when that T turns you into a man and they take away your butch identity?? Who gets to decide that?? Some Reddit mod who hasn’t read about our history??
Mod needs to read the first chapter of Butch is a Noun. There isn’t any right way to be butch. We all have unique, weird gender that doesn’t fit neatly into a box. We find unity in our dyke masculinity and even that looks many different ways!!!
Mod should read Judith Butler too! Sure, lots of trans guys are not sapphic/butches, but like with any group of people, essentialism is always going to be disproven. The internet is not real life. If you haven’t met any transmasc and/or trans guy butches yet, you probably just need to go outside and spend more time in community!
Labels are just approximations to communicate the complicated complexity of being a human in the world. They will always be inadequate. The human experience is what’s real, not any category that humans invent to describe it.
We have always been a part of the butch/lesbian community and we always will be. I’m glad to see how many people here agree<3
I know I’m going to get downvoted for clarifying the mod’s opinion. And I want to say please don’t use this clarification as me passing judgement either way - I am just passing on what I’ve seen while I’ve been a member of this sub.
The mod’s opinion is that binary men cannot identify as butch. Transmasc people who do not identify as a binary man are not excluded from butch identity per the mod’s opinion.
I am nonbinary (have had top surgery, often pass as a man) and butch - but I am not a trans man, so I again don’t feel comfortable having an opinion here personally. What I will say is that I know, and have seen online, trans men who find it transphobic to use the term lesbian for binary trans men.
I go out of my way to not consume too much content related to butch identity. As someone who has been subjected to lifelong bullying, as well as a recent hate crime, based on my appearance, it is personally easier for me to use this identity and not engage with this discourse, due to my history of trauma. I am again not passing judgement here, just clarifying why the post might’ve been removed.
Can someone explain to me how men can be lesbians?
Because gender and identity are complex, multidimensional things.
Some people identify as "man" and "woman", some people feel that their identity is fluid and mutable, some people feel that they as nonbinary people are both aligned with manhood and butchness.
Even going back to the roots of the label butch, there was never a strict and binary cut-off point where "man" starts and "butch dyke" ends.
For a lot of people these are fluid spaces that bleed into each other and countless members of our community cannot and will not be able to place themselves neatly into these binaries.
Multi dimensional? Length width height time gender.
I'm sure many cannot place themselves in these binaries, but to say a man is a lesbian is just ludicrous, and in the case of trans men, transphobic, as it denies their masculinity.
it’s the opposite of transphobic to say that trans men should be allowed to identify themselves however the fuck they want.
and you’re being flippant about what you’re saying but actually? yeah! in gender-fluid identity time is absolutely a factor so you got that right despite trying your very hardest to get it wrong and misrepresent my point.
They can't, full stop.
Gatekeeping is a tool of our oppressors.
Eta: y’all; as a trans woman, you should know this is the same logic used to say YOU can’t be a lesbian, right?
I always saw gatekeeping as a tool of marginalized groups. Plus I’m sure you gatekeep in some way as well, like against anyone you see as a gatekeeper. 😂
Saying you’re sure I’m a hypocrite with no evidence at all really is something.
Men are not lesbians.
don’t bring your 4tran shit into other subs.
I am sorry, I guess i should reclaim being a heterosexual male since thats what historically used for my kind.
That is not what this discusdion is about and you know it. Take your bad faith and shove it where the sun don't shine
Why are you invalidating my experience and sexuality? 🙄
I am just a woman who loves other women, but because i am trans woman historically i would be classified as heterosexual. Have you not read any old transphobic literature?
I am ALSO. a transgender woman. And ALSO. a lesbian. And i can SOMEHOW find it in my heart of hearts to love and respect the identities of OTHER lesbians, of OTHER identies and personal experiences, EVEN AND ESPECIALLY transmasculine, FTM, he/him, and trans man lesbians. This post is about THEM, and how THEIR identities are being treated by the moderators of this subreddit. SOMETIMES THINGS ARE NOT ABOUT US AND THAT IS OKAY.
no one is saying straight trans men are lesbians, what we're saying is trans men can identify with the label lesbian if they want to
Would you allow a different kind of men to do the same? Would you accept Drake as a lesbian because he said so?
I am just saying trans men are men.
yes, trans men are men, and they can identify as lesbians if they want to since our experiences overlap (i'm a transmasculine nonbinary lesbian btw). your question has nothing to do with what i'm saying, if drake said he's a lesbian who am i to deny that? or why do you think it's our place to allow/accept someone's identity?
Experiences overlapping is not experiences being the same. Why on earth are people more concerned with pushing literal self identifed men into lesbian communities over trans women??? And why on earth are you excusing Drake's lesbophobia?? Wtf?? This is the same terf logic of "once a woman always a woman." Being of an oppressed gender does not mean that we all share the same experiences, particularly when the one thing that binds all lesbians is that we are not men and we are not attracted to men. No one does this for gay men and trans girls. It's pure lesbophobia
It literally is though? Y'all are saying that trans men can be lesbians, which is inherently ivalidating of their gender. If you're saying you're making an exception for trans men, then you're transphobic, as it is clear you don't see them as men.
The mod is correct I don't understand why y'all are upset. How can a man be a lesbian.
A trans man can be a lesbian if they identify as one. Hope that helps!
Trans man ≠ trans masc. Men can't be lesbians
Copy + Pasted
Gender and identity are complex, multidimensional things.
Some people identify as "man" and "woman", some people feel that their identity is fluid and mutable, some people feel that they as nonbinary people are both aligned with manhood and butchness.
Even going back to the roots of the label butch, there was never a strict and binary cut-off point where "man" starts and "butch dyke" ends.
For a lot of people these are fluid spaces that bleed into each other and countless members of our community cannot and will not be able to place themselves neatly into these binaries.