Sounds like the goal is a mix of original titles from AP along with popular classic (but updated) Williams.

With CGC taking forever to ship a game and Pedretti being overseas (shipping and tariff costs), this might work if he can keep the costs under control.

Right because the won't be remade exactly as the past. They will have color displays and extra features while retaining the standard game. You don't want a 4 shade orange dmd do you?

It's all going to come down to which games, what does "reimagined" mean exactly, and are they good quality.

Chicago Gaming did a great job with their remakes from what I've seen, but on the other end I feel like Pedretti's Funhouse is not up to snuff and the original version is still preferred.

Who’s Robert?

Robert Mueller aka Big Shot Bob aka "not the FBI guy" aka Deep Root founder and life insurance embezzler

Depends on what they do, upgrade art, LCD screen/animations. The 30yr old game has just as much if not more mechs than current games; (spinning ball, Magnet Save, moving target, magnet ball lock) which is more than a modern Star Wars from Stern. If they "reimagine" it correctly with current World Cup logos and players names, I can see it being a big success. To me, a new World Cup theme is one of my personal dream themes, so I get it why it might not be appealing to you. However, Soccer/Futbol is the biggest sport in the world and this new refreshed pin can do well in North America (this years World Cup location) and overseas especially because they love Soccer. We also don't know the price point. AP made affordable pins in the past.

From the incredible team that brought you Hotwheels!

My son is a soccer player, loves Messi and the other big name players, likes "doggy soccer" pinball thanks to its theme. I could see us picking one up someday, but a remake for twice the money? Ehh... better knock it out of the park (pardon the baseball metaphor).

We've been told repeatedly that most of those people are gone, which is how we ended up with ice cream tanks and barbecue.

I can think of at least one person on the Hot Wheels team they ought to rehire, and he's been oddly quiet in the AP threads of late.

if the WCS was slightly updated I would buy it. We have the world cup this summer and I'm sad that no one made a pin for it.

Can the remakes have the WMS home roms with coin play / the Soren roms as base?

I didn't say that. I said.. are you willing to pay 9-10k for a WCS? Because that's gonna be more like the reality.. and the game is going to be competing with far richer modern titles in close price points.

When you glam it up, you add updated art, lighting, etc.. at the end of the day it's still WCS. And it's a game that is readily available for half that price.

The early remakes worked well because they were highly desirable titles that were demanding extreme premiums (costing even more than modern games). So paying modern prices was actually a discount PLUS you got improvements. It was a 'win-win' once CGC figured out their teething and actually made significant improvements to the original games making them not just 'replacements' but desirable in their own right (AFMLE, etc).

That model breaks down as the critical pieces of low availability, elevated prices, unmet sustained demand are watered down. Then it becomes more of a 'make a modern equivalent..' -- and you're comparing to a 4k game most people aren't buying already.. not a 10-15k game people wish they could buy.

Maybe you weren't around... but it's the same reason games like Fathom remastered suffered.. the asking price they can build the modern game at immediately cripples the demand for the title... because the same money buys a lot more in other offers.

I already have way more confidence in American Pinball with Bryan's new leadership, than Pedretti. Pedretti's quality control at this point is suspect from what I've read, plus the whole tarriff situation.

I'm hopeing for Big Bang Bar and Theater of Magic from American Pinball and with a better timeline than CGC.

Hopefully folks get the titles / themes they like. I'd personally rather have a new game that shoots well and is fun to play.

Where do you get this number from?

AP currently selling LOV for $7395, Barry O for $6995, GTF $8995, Hot Wheels $7395 and Houdini for $7395

Factor in that CGC released CC for $7999

So your question is will I pay 9-10k for a WCS? No, but I also don't see them charging that much either.

That’s great! Always nice to have more choices for who is making a game.

I agree with benefit to fix some items if bringing back a game. Beyond proper sound, double-resolution color display, LEDs, things I’d wish for would be things like:

Cirqus Voltaire: More resilient scroll attachment/material, and I found TEP’s lit scrolls interesting. Some stronger plastic protectors such as U-shaped one around ringmaster head. Auto eddy board. Make more clearance between the plastics ramps in upper right corner and the display screen, so not break the ramp plastic when lift playfield up and down. Similar to the ‘thanks for cleaning under the plastic’ I’d stamp some fun hidden text on the triangle plastic over juggler hole to warn people from commonly installing/reinstalling it backwards, since it looks like it should go the other way around, which will make the 1st juggler saucer eject fail more often. The updated home ROM. Reengineered backbox cannon coil anchor, so it won’t shatter out the plastic white clamshell behind translite

Twilight Zone: More reliable clock mech. A better way to properly extend with mods, without having to run alligator clips, or have to try to understand game state by sound or light sensors. Or consider options from factory for some of the most common cosmetic mods placed already (spinning slot machine sculpt on right habitrail, player piano sculpt, spotlight on upper playfield, mini-clockface above stand up between ramps, town square lamppost, colored gumballs)

Theatre of Magic: Auto eddy boards. Firm up the clearances around Vanish saucer gate so ball not hit frame at top of gate. Re-engineer, firm up launch hole plastic so less frequently crack. The unofficial home ROM with better balance (?soren). A bit more of animated pinball moment for beating final wizard. Available option for brass legs/armor/ramps/spirit ring. Less destructible trunk. Delete trunk’s front right post that would trap the ball and rip post off playfield

I feel we’re living in a good timeline to be a fan of Bally/Williams style of tables, and it keeps getting better

1 - That was old AP - you can't assume their model going forward. Sales now are just flushing old inventory.
2 - Most of those examples are them just building from old stuff.. again, not the same as building a new game at new company volumes
3 - CGC is famous for under pricing their titles - it's not really a safe assumption some new company will hit sub 8k. CCLE was 9k+
4 - You can't really assume an upstart can hit the same volumes as long running companies.. thus they need higher price points
5 - Inflation - you're really talking 2027 here, not 2021 when CCr was announced.

You're not going to get a new B-level game, from a new company, ontime and under Stern Pro pricing. You might.. but I doubt the backer will survive to #2.
So reality is more where everyone else is operating... in that 8-10k range.

Even if you went with a 'we'll create huge demand by offering a discount price point!' business strategy, the market has proven time and time again that for pins, the product ends up lagging and the demand for it as well. People want the Cadillac, not the Kia.

Meanwhile the owner is talking 4 titles before even grasping how to complete one...

I was looking forward to seeing what games AP was going to create. Instead it's just more remakes.

Just remake Pinball Circus with a limited run. I'd happily buy one.

This is another thing I think people are taking out of context from Bryan's posts; he clarified here that the goal is 1 title this year, and only 1 or 2 titles per year after that.

I am super excited to get some of these new games… I am sure everyone’s list is different. I would love a new Cirquis Voltaire, Defender, and Warlok are just some I would buy if made.

Rick at Planetary really needs to map out and let everyone know in the community, what company has what remake. He doesn't need to say what order but let everyone know. I mean, I'd be all down for an AP, or Chicago Gaming TOTAN but I don't think I'd want to touch a TOTAN right now with Pedretti making it (tariffs/build quality).

Your wait is over.

If all the comments from what was left of AP are true, they have a new, licensed game (not Cuphead) close to being ready. Obviously I don't know how the sale of the assets affects this and if new ownership will want to make changes to it or not, but I still believe the first game we see from them will not be a WPC remake.

how much code was done? / how much was well the IP says change this chnage that left to do?

Now for the NEW AP to work out a new license? and make needed changes?

This could be very interesting. The CGC remakes have been pretty great so far. Meanwhile the Pedretti games are dogshit (if you've seen the FHr quality threads, you know... and if you've PLAYED the FH 2.0 or WW 2.0 games, you really know!). There are many remakes which would sell if the price is right. That's where CGC was smart. The prices made sense for the builds. MBr was $6K for the Classic, and I think AFr was $6500. MMr was more expensive but the demand was there. CCr felt like a steal at $8K given the BoM.

Updating something like No Fear or Gorgar and asking $8K is going to fall flat on its face. Updating TOTAN, TOM, TZ, or hell even Congo with new displays and expanded code and undercutting a Stern Prem will probably do real well. Updating 80s classics and competing at the Pro price point may do well if there's enough added as well.

Bingo, there will be no new Firepower, Gorgar , Warlok or Defender. Nor will it be Popeye or No Fear either.

I am like the rest and wonder what "re-imagined" really means. Is it just the artwork and displays? Is Re-imagined AP's language of Remastered or Remake?

lol, you are funny. Do you always go around and tell business owners how to run their business? How is that working out for you? No pinball company tells you what they are working on. Should BOF tell you what their next titles are? Titles get leaked. Except for Winchester. That one didn’t get leaked.

When it comes to remakes....one should choose wisely. For instance, Indy is a great game....but there are a ton of them out there.... Games chosen for a remake should be great games where there was a low production run and higher demand. Funhouse was a bad idea in my opinion....

Why not Defender? It was packed for its day. It commands $8k now or more. Only Rick and American know what they are making. We can speculate. I for one would buy a new defender for $8K plus or minus

You have to have sales build up for a title to make it & Defender is a super rare game most people have never seen or played. Gonna be hard to suck 8k of value out of that thing.

But why do we need to know, outside of just pure curiosity and something to talk about online? If I told you next 3 remakes from each of 3 companies over the next 3+ years, what could you do with that information?

Not to mention the public fallout when things don't go as planned & announced.

​While production numbers offer some context, they clearly aren't the primary driver of value. For instance, over 10,000 FunHouse units were produced, whereas Medieval Madness (MM) saw only 4,016 units and Cirqus Voltaire (CV) even fewer at 2,704. While MM and CV command high prices due to their relative scarcity, Addams Family (AF) proves that volume isn't a deterrent; despite a massive production run of 21,270 units, they still easily fetch $10,000 today. Ultimately, the "amount made" matters much less than the quality of the title. If a game is legendary, it’s going to sell for a premium regardless of how many rolled off the assembly line.

Emphasis on "for one." Defender is an average '80s WMS game that goes for more than average money because it's rare. Take away the scarcity and you have an $8k Blackout or Laser Cue. GLWS

Todays secret word is "Pinball"

PW P (resized).jpg

No idea on how far the game code was along, I'm just repeating what they are on the record saying. I don't think the license would need to be redone, there's been no name change to the company and I would assume it's one of the assets that were acquired.

Well the pinball news keeps getting better. Thank you Rick and Bryan !

Exciting times for pinball !

LTG : )

I'm talking about what he's discussed with people 1 : 1 - not his posts here. I can't explain the gap, except to maybe expect he was over eager in what he was pitching.

You are right when you inferred it's not production numbers that are primary driver of value - but you lost it when you tried to make it almost immaterial.

The second flaw is you compared completely different periods as if they were synonymous.

What matters is "availability" aka supply.. and shocker.. how demand compares to that supply.

Games like TAF sold for a premium even due to the high production numbers because they were still valuable to operators so they were kept instead of dumped.. and ran until they were beat to death. So while production run was high, availability of nice condition games for collectors was not nearly the same as a high volume SS game that got dumped by ops as the market moved to DMDs.

Factors like how long ago were those units made.. what was their lifecycle at the time... have they remained desirable... all those factors tend to drive how many high quality survivors there are.. and in modern times we have replacement parts available now.. that too feeds in.. So all of that really is what drives the true measure of AVAILABILITY of examples people want.

In modern times, 75% of games are going into home collections where they will be babied.. so with MUCH smaller runs, we have much higher availability of these newer titles in good condition. You also have game owners who are less willing to take a loss on sale price vs Ops.. Where if you look at Space Shuttle... they were huge.. until they weren't.. and those games were beat to death and then basically D-tier while everyone chased DMDs.. so many were trashed, few survived, but then we started getting products that could revive even beat to death examples.. so prices remain low.

Games that are popular that REMAIN popular even as the market shifts will still do good.. as long as the market isn't flooded. But that's the problem with remakes.. they erode a major pillar of what drives market prices... supply. There won't be any appreciation when supply is readily available.

In the pinball hobby there are many titles that were mythically high in value and nearly every one of those stories is tied to availability of good examples.. where most of them had poor availability due to aborted runs due to company or market issues. The very few standouts that were also high volume... where also due to the dynamics of the game's lifecycle as commercial equipment vs collector demand (like MM).

I'm not a fan of remakes. I'd rather see new ideas. Having said that, I think this could be a good thing, because it could keep AP's lines busy during downtime between manufacturing their original games. As such, they wouldn't need to produce as many. But in the end, who knows? It's all conjecture at this point.

I'd nominate Whitewater as the 90's game that really needs a rules remake. Great playfield and vibe, but the rules are shallow and repetitive, the scoring stinks because it's either the 5x multiball triple jackpots or garbage, and so does the wizard award progress (the 6x river requirement on one ball is atrocious.) Whitewater with a redesigned modern rules structure could be really amazing.

I'm curious how/if licensing will play a role in these 7 titles. I'm assuming titles like Addams Family, Indiana Jones, Creature, etc would have licensing details and who knows if they'll be allowed to do those or not. However original themes like CV, ToM, TOTAN are fair game obviously.

Basically changed long ago, shouldn't be an issue. Along with ball saver

5x is perfect...you gotta not bone it up.

Creature is a great choice for a remake. A playfield display instead of the hologram, arduino style ramp lights and redone sound would make it worth getting. Depending on how deep they wanted to add code with 3 creature movies it could be a triple feature.

They do and are minefields for various reasons..

Different team and new company in some ways it appears perhaps.

And to think around a 15 or so years ago was just one company making pins!

ToM and ToTAN are Pedretti, so already coming out.

Creature is Trudeau, so maybe some pause there? Also, the issues making a hologram that lasts 25 years like the original before turning blue/black is a problem.

Didn't someone use to make and sell a mod that put an LCD with all sorts of cool video assets in the place of the Hologram? I'm not a big CFTBL (movies or game) fan so I just saw it in passing.

Yeah, there are at least two different ones of those. Not sure if that would increase/decrease interest in a brand new machine by deviating from the original design.

A SolidLight hologram version would be amazing, but definitely would cost too much.