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Mar 21, 19:55
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Q: How should we interpret Dave Cutler's criticism of Unix?

Brian HDave Cutler is well known for his contributions to operating systems, having led the effort on VAX VMS at DEC and Windows NT at Microsoft. According to his Wikipedia page, he is also known for his attitudes toward Unix. [Cutler] expressed his low opinion of the Unix process input/output model...

 
 
Erik Eidt
Erik Eidt
No quotes or text from Culter, though lots of critique of unix: The Unix Haters Handbook
 
 
JdeBP
JdeBP
The edit history makes me suspect that this is a personal recollection of someone who was there at the time, and something that was never written down and cannot be verified. It might not even have been fully articulated in the first place, in which case there's only one person who could ever answer.
 
 
Stephen Kitt
Stephen Kitt
634k
I agree with JdeBP. Cutler is known for being very private, so you won’t find much that he’s said on the record. I suspect the opinions presented on this Quora question are closer to the mark: he wouldn’t have cared about Unix shortcomings, only those of the systems he’d designed previously (VMS improved on RSX-11M, and Windows NT improved on VMS). Showstoppers! might provide more insight but I don’t have it.
 
 
another-dave
another‐dave
Nothing specific in Showstopper!. p94 (hardback) includes some anonymous team member saying "He (Cutler) thinks Unix is a junk operating system designed by a committee of Ph.D.s There's never been one mind behind the whole thing and it shows." - which sheds little light on I/O issues.
 
 
Ross Ridge
Ross Ridge
I've known people who come from mainframe backgrounds disparage Unix's sole byte steam view of files because they were used to "richer" file interfaces like ISAM which made certain tasks easier, never mind how inefficient these interfaces could be.
 
 
another-dave
another​‑dave
Mar 21, 19:55
I like asynchronous packet-driven I/O with optional (synchronous) byte streams on top of it. Traditional Unix on disks is synchronous block I/O with byte streams on top of it. The former is more general.
 
 
Stephen Kitt
Stephen Kitt
I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because, given the absence of statements in the public record, “What specific or fundamental difference between Unix and VMS or NT was Cutler pillorying?” can only be answered by Cutler himself.
 
 
Brian H
Brian H
@StephenKitt I will vote to close my own question. The enlightened consensus here is that we have nothing of value to add to retrocomputing topics already covered on Wikipedia.
 
Best information available already sourced as Wikipedia.
 
 
Stephen Kitt
Stephen Kitt
TBH I don’t think the Wikipedia entry is accurate on this topic.
 
 
Brian H
Brian H
@StephenKitt It's easy to edit Wikipedia. And why create excess noise about it outside of the canonical source. If anything, the accepted answer here could be a basis for submitting an edit, but that could always be done, and without this question ever needing to be raised.
 
 
Stephen Kitt
Stephen Kitt
634k
You’re right about the choice of venue; but my choice of edit to Wikipedia here would be to delete the mention entirely, since it’s effectively hearsay. The information given in the answer here is useful, although it doesn’t answer the question ;-). I’m not sure we should defer to Wikipedia in general; many of its articles on retro-computing topics are inaccurate, and hard to edit (because corrections get reverted). At least here, multiple answers can co-exist, and readers can decide for themselves what they think is accurate.
 
 
Erik Eidt
Erik Eidt
62.4k
Mar 21, 19:55
VMS is good for Cobol-style record-oriented flat file databases. These databases have the file system as their interface. Multiple applications can be accessing the database files at the same time, hence record locking etc.. are desired. These days, however, we have moved to database applications as a service (e.g. SQL) rather than using the file system as the common access service. Thus, what we need more and more is for the OS to get out of the way while enabling applications each to do highly custom algorithms and data structures, including using their own file structures and formats.
 
 
Brian H
Brian H
@StephenKitt I agree Wikipedia has its own faults. I'm on the fence about closing the question if the information given in answers here is useful, as you say. It's probably harder than it looks to ask a perfect question here - one which invites no objections, clarifications, corrections, or controversy...
 
 
Ross Ridge
Ross Ridge
41.2k
@StephenKitt It's inappropriate to close a question based on what you assume the answer to be. Also all quotes on Wikipedia are hearsay, it's not supposed to be primary source of anything, so it would also be inappropriate to delete the quote from Wikipedia on that basis. Ironically, your argument about why this site is better than Wikipedia argues against closing this question.
 
 
Stephen Kitt
Stephen Kitt
634k
@RossRidge I explained why I think this question should be closed, and it has nothing to do with existing or putative answers or Wikipedia. As it’s currently phrased, the question has only reason to keep it open IMO: the hope that Dave Cutler will join and answer.
 
And as far as the “quote” on Wikipedia is concerned, it doesn’t have a citation, which disqualifies it from Wikipedia. That’s what I mean by hearsay (so I used the word inaccurately, yes).
 
 
Ross Ridge
Ross Ridge
@StephenKitt Your justification for closing is the question is that it can't be answered except to say there are no public statements in the public record, which is an assumption that could be proved wrong.
 
 
Stephen Kitt
Stephen Kitt
@RossRidge granted, it could be. I thought there was a meta question about asking questions in this style, but I can’t find it...
 
 
Scott Earle
 ♦Scott Earle
Mar 21, 19:55
LOL @ "could be debated"
 
 
ctrl-alt-delor
ctrl‐alt‐delor
Unix is an old system, that should have been replaced yours ago. Unfortunately it is the most modern system we have, and still years ahead of MS-Windows.It seems to have been at least 10 years ahead of MS for at least the last 30 years (probably longer).
 
 
 
15 days later…
 
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Apr 5, 9:01
 
 
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