Why trans women and "traps" are popular in media, but not vice versa?

[S.P.Requiem]

Traps, or "otokonoko" are very popular in anime, and IMO even getting more popular recently. With stuff like Astolfo and Shimakaze-kun.
Trans people are also getting more spotlight in western media these years.

But I notice most of the trans portrayed in western media are trans women.
Trans men, i.e. women who take testosterone and have an artificial dick, get very little coverage in comparison.
And I don't see many "tall and handsome, but has a vagina" characters in anime either. Outside of stuff like Ogami Sakura and Stella, who are not handsome, but super muscular joke characters.


What do you think is the reason for this? Or are there actually equal amount of trans men and "onnanokan" out there that I just haven't notice?

 

[meloa789]

Someone who is more knowledged can say it better than me, but I think this is correlated with the fact trans women have more coverage than trans men in real life media too.

 

[S.P.Requiem]

trans women have more coverage than trans men in real life media too.

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Yeah that's part of my question too.

 

[meloa789]

Yeah that's part of my question too.

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In that case, I can only say that the cases of man-to-woman surgeries outnumber woman-to-man surgeries by norm and statistics. And that is reflected to the media trends too.

 

[Gitaxian]

The same reason you see more lesbian than gay couples. Fanservice. It's also heavily tied to merchandising sales, especially in anime. Waifus sell far more merchandise than other characters. Merchandising is often more profitable than the show itself. It happens in western fiction too of course - see Young Justice being cancelled because too much of the audience was girls who they couldn't sell action figures to.

It seems a lot of companies get stuck in a fallacy where they believe they have to pander to males because their audience is mostly male, when their audience is mostly male because they pander to males.

 

[S.P.Requiem]

The same reason you see more lesbian than gay couples. Fanservice. It's also heavily tied to merchandising sales, especially in anime. Waifus sell far more merchandise than other characters. Merchandising is often more profitable than the show itself. It happens in western fiction too of course - see Young Justice being cancelled because too much of the audience was girls who they couldn't sell action figures to.

It seems a lot of companies get stuck in a fallacy where they believe they have to pander to males because their audience is mostly male, when their audience is mostly male because they pander to males.

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Um, there are a shitload of yaoi(gay) couples in anime too, and they sell huge bucks too.
But unlike harem shows that often has a trap in the sea of waifus, I don't think the "handsome guy with a vagina in the sea of handsome guys" is a thing in most otome shows.

 

[Gitaxian]

Um, there are a shitload of yaoi(gay) couples in anime too, and they sell huge bucks too.
But unlike harem shows that often has a trap in the sea of waifus, I don't think the "handsome guy with a vagina in the sea of handsome guys" is a thing in most otome shows.

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I was under the impression harems were far more popular and common than yaoi. There's probably some statistical data out there about this we can find.

 

[S.P.Requiem]

I was under the impression harems were far more popular and common than yaoi. There's probably some statistical data out there about this we can find.

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Not as big of a difference as you think.
This is the chart of numbers of doujinshis in Comiket 91:

The blue ones are male oriented series, the red ones are female oriented.
The first three are: Kancolle, Touhou, Touken Ranbu.

Touken Ranbu is basically Kancolle for girls. And their anime actually sold better than the Kancolle one (mostly because Kancolle's anime is god awful though.)

 

[Dream-Thinker]

I could be wrong, but I've heard that the term "Trap" can be a bit offensive.

 

[S.P.Requiem]

I could be wrong, but I've heard that the term "Trap" can be a bit offensive.

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Hum so what's the proper English term for those characters, then?
From where I see it everyone calls them traps. And they are not trans women either.

And I don't think they are cross dressers or drag queens either. Those should be something like this:

 

[Dream-Thinker]

Hum so what's the proper English term for those characters, then?
From where I see it everyone calls them traps. And they are not trans women either.

And I don't think they are cross dressers or drag queens either. Those should be something like this:

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I wouldn't know. Unfortunately, I'm ignorant when it comes to such things.

 

[Nerx]

could be aesthetics and ideals ?

 

[areoborg]

I could be wrong, but I've heard that the term "Trap" can be a bit offensive.

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IIRC, it came from 4chan (or someplace similar) so of course its going to be offensive. At the same time, there's not really an English version of this kind of character design so there's not really much of a cultural push to change it.

could be aesthetics and ideals ?

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I file it under WTFJapan. Where so much of their weird shit goes.

 

[Seth Vatamaris]

First in that list

Hime is from Himegoto, one of the infamous animes that killed off the mainstream romantic cross dressing genre because of how offensive it was and the rampant homophobia and transphobia present. Bokura no Hentai deconstructed the entire genre making any hope of fixing it in the near future very slim, while showing the above problems.

Edit for Himegoto you know there's a problem with the series when fans consider the Yakuza who were going to work the protagonist like a slave to be the most likable. Yes everyone else is worse.

Ryuunosuke is from the Pet Girl of Sakurasou, a really good anime but he's just a boy with long hair (it's too much of a hassle cutting it) and everyone knows it, he doesn't make a physical appearance till half way in the series, and that for in universe reasons of attendance.


I do remember a picture (don't post it you'll be banned) that showcased a reaction which had a cute moe girl and listed her as such and comments bashing the character, then the same exact picture but with 'actually a boy' added on and cue praising comments.

Japan doesn't really have a grasp on homosexuality or transgendered people but that's the least of the problems they have.

I do remember the character Poison was a woman but Japan changed her to transgendered (?) to avoid the implications of a woman being hit, the in a re release she was replaced with a man. Now she's (?) her (?) own character and well I'm not too sure of her (?) gender.

I need more time to being more info

Also identity politics might be an issue but TBA on that

 

[Darmani]

Someone who is more knowledged can say it better than me, but I think this is correlated with the fact trans women have more coverage than trans men in real life media too.

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trans men tend to get folded under sweet polly oliver or lesbianism. Its just in a way a part of the script for women to take on masculine traits as aspects of power.

"I am a man not a woman" is also something of a disempowering statement to the group likely to promote gender role reform.

Where as .. ugh I don't care for the implication of the term "trap." Chances are you- in life - HAVE seen a man dressed or seeming like a woman (some were professionals in hollywood) and there is the longterm influence of actors playing female roles.
In short its tied to our overall attitude on men and women and gay and straight and gender roles and class signifiers and stage history

Also media is about image. Women are associated, enormously, with looks. Not that men don't do image but looks is not just a level of measure but a whole field of communication, identitfication and value, to the point if there IS an aspect of cosmetics its been assigned, nowdays, to ladies regardless of history and tradition.

EVERYactor or stage performer no matter the red state masculine image is wearing makeup for the camera or to affect a great preentation. It is just essential. But do we tink about Bruce Willis or Chi McBride's lipstick game? Wear eyeliner and out come the snickers but often that level is esential for every professional shoot and classically trained actors know how to do it. Its saves a fortune and helps with security

 

[GhostKaiju]

Hum so what's the proper English term for those characters, then?

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Effeminate Male crossdresser? Transvestite? Terms I probably don't know much on and if I try and throw any labels around I'll look like a fucking idiot?

Not every guy on the planet is big, hulking slab of masculinity, there are many men who can do a very damn job at appearing ti be androgynous or of the opposite gender simply due to the right make-up or clothing. They may not all look exactly the same, but they are still a Crossdresser.

And I don't think they are cross dressers or drag queens either. Those should be something like this:

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Using Jojo on the topic of Crossdressing and Transgender is cheating, and you fucking know it (see: Araki having Annasui be a Girl jn her first appearance, and then honest-to-god forgot that he made that character a girl, and made her into a Male character—not Transgender, he honestly just forgot ehich gender the character the character was, and rolled with Annasui always having been a guy).

 

[Alterego9]

Trans men, i.e. women who take testosterone and have an artificial dick, get very little coverage in comparison.

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Anime "traps" are not defined by that either, though. Few of them even identify as women, let alone had any medical transitioning. Most of them are transvestites, dressed as women either as disguise for practical reasons, as a kink, or as a humiliating joke. Some of them might in fact be inspired by the existence of transwomen, but their writers seem to be barely aware of that.

Looking at it that way, female transvestites are probably far more popular in media than male ones, and also considered more "family friendly". Hell, one of them is a Disney Princess.

What do you think is the reason for this? Or are there actually equal amount of trans men and "onnanokan" out there that I just haven't notice?

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I think a reason for not associating them with being "reverse traps", is that this trope is entirely based on the cultural expectation of a homophobic male audience feeling emasculated by the threat of it turning out that they were attracted to a man all along (that is, they got trapped).

This doesn't have a gender-swapped equivalent, because the very idea of defining whole characters by heterosexual men's reaction to them, is heavily reliant on taking that reaction for granted as being the mainstream norm, at the expense of female or gay male reactions.

 

[S.P.Requiem]

I do remember the character Poison was a woman but Japan changed her to transgendered (?) to avoid the implications of a woman being hit, the in a re release she was replaced with a man. Now she's (?) her (?) own character and well I'm not too sure of her (?) gender.

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Poison is actually a hermaphrodite, or futanari, meaning he/she(?) has a dick and a vagina, both fully natural and functional, which doesn't exist in real life.

Edit: Seems like Poison has different settings in Japan and the US. In the US she's just a trans woman, and in Japan she(?)'s a futa.
Typical Capcom. Kinda like the Vega/M.Bison/Balrog thing.

 

[Darmani]

Poison is actually a hermaphrodite, or futanari, meaning he/she(?) has a dick and a vagina, both fully natural and functional, which doesn't exist in real life.

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Poison is how make it safe for kids ends up kinkier.

Like Superman expressing attraction to his cousin so no love and leave em. Or the Gorons or Zelda or Dwarves post Tolkien (i think ala trolls they raped/stole human women, seems a feature of the norse with the aesir alternatively marrying and adopting but also trying to wipe out ice giants). We wanted to take out the awful nasty implications and end up opening a spot for weirder ones (how did Darunia have a kid in 7 years and why doesn't the kid miss his mother. Why are NONE of the Gorons addressed as Sister!) Tolkien said the women crossdressed. fanboys said they had beards and Prachett...someone else take that

Basically poison was meant to be made an acceptble punching taret by the male characters on acount of her not being a real woman but.. well a trap. Only oops gaybashing becaming a greaer crime of condemnation as well as the abuse of transwomen in law enforcement or pushed by hook or crook to criminal means (Angel!!!!) and left to be hurtby the system. So now they are carefulyl tryin to make her disappear but well look at her classic exploitation hooker and quick GLBT credit if you do your damnedst to dodge longerm thought.

Add in, like many anime dude looks like a lady you cannot hope to gues or tel and any admission of transitioning would apply things to the real trans people and the issues with THAT...

BTW the equivalent of traps tends to be teh Boku Girl. A girl with oerly masculine affectations often in posture and speech ORbeing overly cold or robotic. Twigs differently tying into the unique perception and roles of man and woman with Japan. As to academic taxonomy

 

[Poor Dick]

First, I think you are potentially mixing up a number of different gender/sexual identity concepts. (Wearing clothing traditionally associated with a sex or gender other than your biological birth sex does not necessarily indicate a trans individual.)


Second, while I can't speak for all nations, or even all regions of my nation (the US), there was a time where a woman wearing pants was offensive in the US (and still is in certain parts of nation).

One of my first cousins (who is about two decades older than I) was once publically shamed for wearing pants in public when she was a young woman (prior to my birth). She was brought before the assembled local population where her behavior was publically denounced and she was made to apologise for her offense.

While that seems extreme now, those with a penis or classically masculine body type do tend to suffer insults or worse in public for wearing clothing traditionally associated with women (such as skirts).

I mean, you see tons of anime where women wear pants - and less than a hundred years ago that would be scandalous (in the US).

Behaviorally, you see the same thing (though that is changing with more men staying home with their kids). Women (in the US) have been able to work outside the home en mass since WWII. (This is not to say that women don't still face discrimination - they do, only that the discrimination is much less blatant.)


TL;DR
Basically, females can get away with wearing more traditional male clothing and acting more "masculine" more often than the reverse so it's not as noticable or notable as the reverse.

 

[S.P.Requiem]

Anime "traps" are not defined by that either, though. Few of them even identify as women, let alone had any medical transitioning. Most of them are transvestites, dressed as women either as disguise for practical reasons, as a kink, or as a humiliating joke. Some of them might in fact be inspired by the existence of transwomen, but their writers seem to be barely aware of that.

Looking at it that way, female transvestites are probably far more popular in media than male ones, and also considered more "family friendly". Hell, one of them is a Disney Princess.

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The Mulan example has a few problems. One it's from an old Chinese tale so it's not really a product of modern western ideology.
(BTW the "women can't be soldiers and should be killed if we found one" is not in The Ballad of Mulan, it's just added in the movie for dramatic effect.)

Two her interaction with others is very different, if not entirely opposite, to a typical anime trap.
Let's say if Mulan is a typical anime reverse-trap, a girl should fall in love with her and later finds out that Mulan is also a girl.
OTOH, an anime trap acting like Mulan, who reveals his male identity towards the end of the story and gets a girl, that literally never happened.

 

[Alterego9]

The Mulan example has a few problems. One it's from an old Chinese tale so it's not really a product of modern western ideology.

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To whom is that a problem?

Two her interaction with others is very different, if not entirely opposite, to a typical anime trap.
Let's say if Mulan is a typical anime reverse-trap, a girl should fall in love with her and later finds out that Mulan is also a girl.
OTOH, an anime trap acting like Mulan, who reveals his male identity and gets a girl, that literally never happened.

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Yeah, I have directly addressed this in the part of my post that you didn't quote. Female crossdressers are not perfect 1:1 counterparts for male ones, for the same reason why gender roles in general are not symmetrical.

More particularly, there is no female eqivalent to storytellers taking it for granted that their "normal" audience member is a heterosexual man, who would take a female character being revealed as male all along, as such an amusingly embarrassing twist at the expense of their masculinity.

 

[S.P.Requiem]

Poison is how make it safe for kids ends up kinkier.

Like Superman expressing attraction to his cousin so no love and leave em. Or the Gorons or Zelda or Dwarves post Tolkien (i think ala trolls they raped/stole human women, seems a feature of the norse with the aesir alternatively marrying and adopting but also trying to wipe out ice giants). We wanted to take out the awful nasty implications and end up opening a spot for weirder ones (how did Darunia have a kid in 7 years and why doesn't the kid miss his mother. Why are NONE of the Gorons addressed as Sister!) Tolkien said the women crossdressed. fanboys said they had beards and Prachett...someone else take that

Basically poison was meant to be made an acceptble punching taret by the male characters on acount of her not being a real woman but.. well a trap. Only oops gaybashing becaming a greaer crime of condemnation as well as the abuse of transwomen in law enforcement or pushed by hook or crook to criminal means (Angel!!!!) and left to be hurtby the system. So now they are carefulyl tryin to make her disappear but well look at her classic exploitation hooker and quick GLBT credit if you do your damnedst to dodge longerm thought.

Add in, like many anime dude looks like a lady you cannot hope to gues or tel and any admission of transitioning would apply things to the real trans people and the issues with THAT...

BTW the equivalent of traps tends to be teh Boku Girl. A girl with oerly masculine affectations often in posture and speech ORbeing overly cold or robotic. Twigs differently tying into the unique perception and roles of man and woman with Japan. As to academic taxonomy

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I think the whole "you can't hit a woman" idea is patriarchal.
A true feminist who supports true gender equality should oppose this idea and let fictional women get beat up as badly as men, instead of protesting hysterically about "advocating violence against women". No it's not advocating violence against women, like all other violence in fiction are not advocating violence against men.

A Boku Girl or Ore Girl usually still look like a girl, though. They only act "manly" but that's basically "normal" for girls nowadays.
For example the left is a Boku Girl and the right is an Ore Girl. They hardly have any masculine visual designs, if you count wearing a tie as one.

 

[CalDW]

One of them is seen as cute?

Cute anything is popular, it could be all sweet/innocent or really tragic and anywhere in between and if it's cute people will be drawn to it. Pokemon, Madoka Magica, Kingdom Hearts Heartless, Ebola Chan etc

 

[canned Tomatoes]

From my real life experience and anime experience, media is displaying it usually weird and completely different from real life.
Keep in mind that the anime industry is a bit unhinged from reality, both for artstyles and characterizations. In addition it panders to otakus. :/
So this is pretty much as far away from reality as possible.
So now reallife experience, how to act around trans people. They want to be normal members of society, so acting normal, like with everyone else is best. This would lead to boring plots for anime, since there wouldn't be any shocking reveal, or anything that would lead to drama.