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Over next 1-2 weeks,I'd appreciate an extended thread re: #FrameworkLaptop, #mntreform, & #FOSS.
TL;DR on my idiosyncratic needs:
* minimize binary firmware blobs¹
* Having 2 disks in RAID-1²
* Runs stock Official #Debian stable³
* Understanding best current replacement keyboard options⁴
* Form factor that works for my travel needs.
Is @frameworkcomputer or @mntmn better for me?
I'd be glad if ∃ active engagement on this!
¹ As those who have seen my talks know, I use Lenovo T500/X200 laptops. in addition to various hardware problems, I've sadly been finding they aren't fast enough nor have enough RAM for my work.
I now travel with heavy T500 b/c I have work I can't effectively do on any work on an X200.
I know some will say I'm betraying Free Software or whatever by considering the #Framework laptop which has some blob firmwares.
For those who complain, see:
https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/full_software_freedom/
https://archive.fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/open_source_won/
Just 8 days after I began this thread re: maybe switching to a #FrameworkLaptop, a scandal broke that #Framework directly funded toxic individual FOSS developers.
It's not clear to me yet whether an outright boycott is warranted, but what's already obvious is Framework acts like a classic VC-funded tech startup in making foolish unforced errors in policy decision-making b/c they're too busy “moving fast & breaking things” to pay attention to important details (such as past CoC violations)…(1/3)
(2/3)…the meta-issues of their handling of the messaging is itself enough to convince me #Framework's not a well-led org.
The easy politically savvy response for @frameworkcomputer would have been (esp. b/c it is probably true): “We didn't vet our grantees as well as we should. We apologize but we also can't logistically or legally claw back these already made grants. We are now rethinking our entire grant program.”
Instead a clumsy snap-response from the CEO of: “We are making a big tent.”
…
@thomasclaburn of
@theregister wrote an article about the #FrameworkLaptop situation…
https://www.theregister.com/2025/10/14/framework_linux_controversy/?td=rt-3a
…which links to the accounting of grantmaking that #Framework posted yesterday…
https://frame.work/blog/framework-sponsorships
I think it's a tough decision whether to buy Framework products at this point. My bigger concern remains how badly this was handled.
I'm glad to have learned about @novacustom from this mess, & I'm leaning toward them.
I can learn to live without any hope of a Trackpoint, I guess.
Meta: I just wanna note @thomasclaburn is an excellent journalist. I was out of the office on a medical issue yesterday, yet Thomas made sure to text me — deadline clearly stated. Turns out he was good with the quotes he got on FediVerse, but was giving me the ability to supplement my statements. Thomas also verified with me that the quotes could be on #SFC's behalf, since my Fedi posts are not necessarily — it gave me time to check that was ok w/ SFC.
This is what real journalism looks like.
(3/3)…I've spent my entire career using #IBM laptops knowing this…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
…& then after IBM sold #Lenovo, I was then using laptops made by people w/ strong ties to a human-rights-violating regime.
So, let's have perspective: IBM has still never apologized for *literally* helping the Nazis & #Framework may still be the “least evil” of *traditional* laptop companies.
But, this incident does make me wanna desperately find way to make @mntmn's #MNTReform suit my computing needs.
Picking up my #FrameworkLaptop / #mntreform / need-a-FOSS-laptop thread
³ I need Debian stable & it has to work. I realize I'll have to install some blobs,, but I'd like to know what proprietary firmware blobs are mandatory, & which are optional. (e.g., I basically never use Bluetooth on my laptop anyway, so I don't really need that blob unless it's the same blob as another rperipheral.)
IIUC, MNT Reform is blob-free? Is there a blob laundry list somewhere for the various Framework models?
² I realize having 2 disks in a laptop in RAID-1 sounds weird.
I've done it for nearly 20 years & it is amazing! 
* when traveling w/ X200, I would yank a drive from the T500 & leave a current backup at home in 10 seconds — rebuild array as soon as I get home.
* To preserve a long term backup 2x/year, yank out a drive & write the date on it & put it on shelf, buy a new disk.
* Linux software RAID-1 code does an amazing job optimizing parallel reads when in sync. I/O noticeably improves.
For X220/T420/X230/T430/W530/T440p/W541, the only additional blob required compared to T500/X200 is ME firmware (which can be reduced and disabled with the HAP bit, but not completely removed). All software running on the main CPU is free (excluding microcode, which is in the same situation as T500/X200), and a quad-core Ivy Bridge or Haswell ThinkPad would probably outperform a RK3588 MNT Reform. The ones with 4 RAM slots (W530 and W541) can have up to 32GB RAM, the others are limited to 16GB. The larger (14 or 15-inch) ones can have 3 SSDs (one in the main SATA bay, one in the ultrabay, one in the WWAN slot). X230 can take an X220 keyboard (and I think similar mods are possible on T430 and W530).
T480/T480s are also supported and can have up to 64GB RAM (36 or 40GB for T480s because one module is soldered) but they require more blobs for now (FSP) although they have the potential to be more free when that is reverse engineered because arbitrary code execution on the ME and loading unsigned microcode is possible. They can both take a 2280 NVMe SSD (T480 has a 2.5-inch SATA bay too which is mutually exclusive), as well as a 2242 B+M-key NVMe SSD in the WWAN slot.
@bkuhn @frameworkcomputer @mntmn i have received some interesting answers: https://fosstodon.org/@slink/115354716392920361
@bkuhn @frameworkcomputer@fosstodon.org @mntmn I have a Framework 13 AMD. I've not done a deep dive of the non-free firmware blobs or other non-free software needed to run Debian on it, but "vrms" lists Debian packages firmware-amd-graphics and firmware-misc-nonfree .
The motherboard only has one m.2 slot for an NVMe drive. There's four extension slots that can have storage drives, too. (I don't care about RAID-1 for speed, with NVMe drives, and I do backups in a different way, so I only have one drive.)
Edit for clarity: it was framework's service that was terrible.
MNT is fine
@bkuhn @frameworkcomputer @mntmn I can't comment on your technical needs, but I convinced my partner to buy one, there were problems, and their customer support treated us terribly, when it was still under warranty. Other people have had good luck, but we did not. Your mileage may vary.
@murph @bkuhn @frameworkcomputer which customer support? ours (MNT) or framework?
@mntmn Sorry, it was Framework's.
Your customer service has been great, and for a machine that I knew was bleeding edge, and for enthusiasts.
Framework was supposed to be a finished product, and they let me down.
@murph, thanks for clarifying as your messaged ended up ambiguous because I at-mentioned both @frameworkcomputer and @mntmn, and your pronouns made it confusing since Mastodon default is carry through all at- mentions.
I suspect I'm going to end up using both brands in future. My big worry is the MNT may not be the form factor that will fit all my travel bags which I've carefully chosen to accommodate my hectic & complex travel.
RN that & the keyboard are my concerns with the MNT.
Cc: @mjw
@bkuhn @murph @frameworkcomputer @mjw regarding the form factor, do you mean the classic mnt reform or the new mnt reform next? or both too thick?
@mntmn @murph @frameworkcomputer @mjw I have the classic only rn. I will do some measuring. Thanks for engaging on the thread!
edit: I am a full-time mnt reform user, but I run alpine linux on it.
the only laptop I have that can run multiple nvme drives in a raid is a dell 7740, which is certified for RHEL 8 and Ubuntu 18.04. Mine runs OpenBSD.
CC: @frameworkcomputer@fosstodon.org @mntmn@mastodon.social
@bkuhn in terms of form factor the FW13 will be closer to the X200s compared to the MNT Reform and processing power wise I have no complaints (the heaviest I use it for is editing raw photos).
@bkuhn I got the original MNT Reform and love the thinking and values of it but never got deep enough into it to make it my daily driver. I know that they have changed a lot since, but for now I use a Framework.
Debian isn't part of the "officially supported" distros for FW but should work fine on them. You can replace the keyboard, but only with the identical framework keyboard, nothing more crazy/fancy. Not sure about RAID.
@bkuhn dunno about the Reform, but only the 16” Framework has the option of more than one full-sized NVMe drive, with the expansion bay. The UEFI software is proprietary. I’ve run Debian Stable just fine on the 13 and 12. @frameworkcomputer @mntmn
@bkuhn so, you briefly saw my framework at GRCon (you have an email waiting from me!). That's the smaller Framework 13, and that only has one M.2 nvme slot, but you could add a second, also pcie-attached (though tunneled through USB4) nvme via one of the expansion ports (at the cost of 1 HDMI, USB A or USB-C port). I don't know whether that's 100% the thing I'd go for for RAID-1?
Weight is < 1.4kg, "pretty leightweight". Screen is really rather good and evenly lit.
The 16" version has 2×M.
@bkuhn battery life is still > 6h (unless I open Thunderbird, which eats battery), at 80% brightness (more than enough for indoors, on-train and cloudy-day-outside working).
Linux-wise: You won't be able to buy the exact same motherboard anyways, so I'm not going to try and boot debian, but seeing how utterly smooth Fedora runs, I don't foresee any trouble with debian, especially since with Ubuntu 24.04, a debian-derivative based on a kernel that's older than what's in current stable, works.
@bkuhn I say that with the utmost respect: the mnt reform next looks like a really solid hardware development kit. But that also means it doesn't look like a laptop I would want to throw around, carelessly let a charger dangle off its charging port, carry around with the dust bunnies in my backpack, while running through the rain. Love that it's open hardware, but not open in the sense of dirt ingress.
I don't know which CPU module you have, but if it's the default Rockchip one: I have a…
@bkuhn … pinebook pro with an RK3399 SoC (instead of the mnt reform next's RK3588). The RK3588 better be significantly faster, or else you will have a device that on one hand can run forever off battery, but on the other will also take forever for everything. Note the fact that the Mnt reform operator's handbook doesn't mention which Linux distros are supported makes me suspicious:"uh vendor software lockin!", because it's one thing to make your one kernel boot reliably, coming preinstalled, but
@bkuhn a completely different thing to offer the EFI (or other, but most likely: EFI through *UEFI on UBoot*) environment and upstreamed kernel drivers that allow you to boot "anything" compiled for the platform (assuming availability of either device tree data on some nonvolatile boot memory, or ACPI), including debian and its vast software archives.
@bkuhn Are you interested in alternatives like the mnt reform next? #mntreform
https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2024-09-09-introducing-mnt-reform-next.html
@mjw I have the one you kindly gave me as a gift, I haven't had time to try it. Totally reasonable for us to discuss in this thread if it, in fact, can meet my needs better with #mntreform than #Framework
My main problem in comparing models is that I won't have the time to set up both & try them out; I need to figure out ahead of time to be sure it's gonna work, install Debian once, switch and go.
Anyway, updated top post in thread to include MNT Reform as part of the discussion.
YES. They should just say that. Why the doubling down? I honestly don't believe they *want* to support the horrible things dhh says/thinks. So clunky.
It's like they shot themselves in the foot and then realised they had another barrel and another foot...
@bkuhn @thomasclaburn @theregister @novacustom
I never bought frame.work’s right to repair marketing.
My friend bought a framework 16 and had to go through RMA 4 times in 2 months.
Right to repair isn’t just when something break you can repair, right to repair also mean build a quality product that last as long as possible before it needs repair.
@bkuhn @mntmn I'm glad that we have quite a few Linux-focused laptop vendors to choose from here in Europe: @slimbook, @tuxedocomputers, Star Labs...
@sesivany @bkuhn @mntmn @slimbook @tuxedocomputers Dont forget @novacustom that runs open source BIOS from @3mdeb #Dasharo - I’m still using my NV41 with Trisquel 11 for my daily driver without any OS blobs https://blog.josefsson.org/2022/12/10/trisquel-11-on-nv41pz-first-impressions/
@jas @sesivany
Thanks to both of you as I don't necessarily need this thread to be a Framework vs. MNT Reform dichotomy. It sounds like @novacustom maybe has the fewest proprietary blobs?
I'm also interested in repairability too. How are these brands on that?
& see my other requirements at top of this thread:
https://fedi.copyleft.org/@bkuhn/115288857091836217
Not mentioned yet: I wanna replace the keyboard someday w/ a keyboard w/ trackpoint.
I wonder how { Nova, Star Labs, Slimbook, Tuxedo } all stack up on my needs?
@bkuhn @sesivany @novacustom Dasharo BIOS publish openness score on free software vs proprietary software for NV41 at https://docs.dasharo.com/variants/novacustom_nv4x_adl/openness-score/#v172 - while a sad state of affairs, I think this is state of the art for a x86 arch laptop
@bkuhn @sesivany @novacustom Besides the NV41 I also have NovaCustom's more modern V56, an AMD-based Framework Laptop13 and the MNT Reform. In my judgement, the NV41 is the most libre of these, but out of production. I guess the V54/V56 is next in line (but no deep sleep with WiFi). If I recall correctly, both MNT Reform and Framework Laptop13 require non-free blobs at the OS level to be usable, so I can't really recommend them.
@bkuhn @sesivany @novacustom NovaCustom still offers spare parts for the NV41 and appears to promises to do so 7 years after purchase: https://novacustom.com/product/nv4x-series-spare-parts/ although I've never had the need to order anything since it is has just worked for the past three years.
@PunishedD@poa.st
One of my many jobs in our society is as a philosopher of FOSS ethics. Study of ethics requires deep analysis and consideration of compromise for the betterment of society.
It sounds like you do not think its worth it for anyone to this job. As such, I suggest you just block my account.
If you think a company showing off a pseudo-riced distro on their premium laptop is akin to enabling genocide, your philosophy is broken.
You misunderstood. Perhaps you didn't read about the current scandal at Framework regarding who they are funding?
Reread my posts upthread more carefully: they're saying Framework's recent behavior, while bad, is nowhere near as bad as IBM's or current Lenovo's.
I am guessing maybe you're not a native English speaker. I do make my posts rather dense & I realize nuance obvious to native speakers may not come through properly to International English speakers.
I'm well aware of who DHH is. He's about as toxic as distilled rainwater. The fools freaking out about Omarchy have never been harmed by him and never will be. They are not raising a legitimate community concern, they are screeching about wrongthink that has nothing to do with Linux, Framework, or FOSS itself. Their goal is not a thoughtful ethical standing, it is elimination of (perceived) political rivals.
There is no compromise with them; in fact this very situation shows they are incapable of it. Omarchy is not even the default Framework distro, it's just another one they are supporting, and it looks cool in screenshots. But even that causes a "scandal" somehow.
The fact that you take them seriously shows a serious deficiency in either your analytical capabilities, or your underlying philosophy. I don't know how lax YOUR university courses were, but at least mine taught us about purity spirals and the harm they do to movements.
Far be it for me to suggest you introduce something as crass as *planning ahead* into your philosophical outlook. But you may want to consider that a CEO is required to do so as part of his job. There is no benefit to giving in to the screechers, they will just resume yelling at some random point in the future. Claiming a big tent *is* the compromise position. The proper stance would be to throw the screechers out.
And I think my command of English is just fine, thanks. I was assuming we both understood the implications in the shorter jabs. I'll try not to shorten my points in the future.
@PunishedD@poa.st
You obviously aren't researching context & make incorrect assumptions about what I'd said, & represent that I said things that I didn't say.
I read the entire thread on Framework's forum before commenting on situation.
You seem to have read only part of that thread on Framework's current grant-making, or you are willfully ignoring the worst parts to distract & claim it's some sort of “woke frenzy”
Either way, there is no point in debating you further.
@bkuhn i also want to emphasize that we as MNT can also make the laptop portfolio more fitting to more people's needs. it's just a question of time and money, and the money we need for this is much smaller than what other companies would require. for example, if someone donated (or a grant was given for) a few million (single digit) EUR, we would have the runway to launch a handful of different models over the next years while not burning out.
@mntmn yes, it is so silly: #Framework received ≥ US$30 million in VC. Since they aren't a public company, we don't *know* Nirav Patel's compensation package, but his salary is surely ≥ US$1mil that could greatly advance MNT Reform in the ways you mention.
I'm sure Patel believes that they is “doing good by doing well” — but to do good, we need multiple options for repairable laptops. Capitalism demands MNT Reform *competes* w/ Framework. FOSS principles say Framework should cooperate with you.
For the MNT/Reform with the rk3588 CPU module, the only blob that is required is the DDR training in the boot firmware:
https://mntre.com/modularity.html
You'll need a moderately patched linux kernel, but I have not found any binary blobs hidden in the patchsets, works with a linux-libre base, even!
I have not used WiFi regularly enough to be confident it still works, but did work at some point...
You watched a talk where I used the external HDMI output for the first time during FOSSY.
@vagrantc The Intel WiFi 6e card that MNT will ship you surely doesn't work without non-free blobs? I'm assuming that to avoid blobs for WiFi you need to bring your own old Atheros card (which you can do because the r3588 module has a mPCIE slot instead of integrated WiFi)?
Ahhh, that is probably true! I still am using the ath9k that shipped with the original mnt/reform.
@bkuhn doesn't this compromise write performance noticeably though?
@mbacarella No, I think the Linux RAID-1 code is really strong in that it buffers writes to the second disk until idle moments. It's also why a crash does sometimes leave you out of sync upon reboot.
I have never noticed write slowdowns when in sync.
(Admittedly everything is kinda sluggish during sync, but it does a reasonable job, again, to pause sync work if userland needs I/O.)