I have some claim to be an “old hand” EA:[1]
- I was in the room when the creation Giving What We Can was announced (although I vacillated about joining for quite a while)
- I first went to EA Global in 2015
- I worked on a not-very successful EA project for a while
But I have not really been much involved in the community since about 2020. The interesting thing about this is that my withdrawal from the community has nothing to do with disagreements, personal conflicts, or FTX. I still pretty much agree with most “orthodox EA” positions, and I think that both the idea of EA and the movement remain straightforwardly good and relevant.
Hence why I describe the process as “senescence”: intellectually and philosophically I am still on board and I still donate, I just… don’t particularly want to participate beyond that.
What does the community have to offer me?
I won’t sugar-coat it: the main reason I don’t engage so much with EA these days is that I find it boring. What draw me to EA was the ideas, and the idea of being able to make an impact. It was interesting and fun to talk to people about it, and there were often new and interesting things happening. Even as a non-specialist community member, there was often a lot you could contribute. I don’t feel like that today, and it's hard to see myself as having more impact than I do by donating.
There are two main sub-strands to my lack of interest, which are more apparent online or in-person.
Online: much of the content on the EA forum is quite specialized. I, in principle, absolutely love it that people are writing 10,000 word reports on shrimp sentience and posting it on the forum. That is what actually doing the work looks like - rather than speculating at a high level about whether shrimp could suffer and if so what that would mean for us, you go out and actually try to push our knowledge forward in detail. However, I have absolutely no desire to read it.
I think it’s telling that the main things I commented on or posted about on the Forum since 2017 are all “community” stuff - i.e. things that you don’t require any context to have an opinion about!
Is this a me problem? Maybe! Some people love to consume this stuff and I admire them. But also it’s unsurprising that people doing more focussed work on sub-areas will start to exclude people who aren’t focussed on that sub-area, through the gradual build-up of required context; lack of time; or just the normal inability to care about too many specific things.
In some ways it felt like the early EA community was like the old scientific Royal Society. Someone would come in and demonstrate the relationship between heat and pressure in gases - awesome! Then another person would show you what lungs looked like under a microscope - cool! Whereas now it’s a bit more like modern science: fields are much deeper (which is good!) but it is harder to maintain an interest in many of them.
Offline: a lot of what goes on in in-person EA meetups is, quite reasonably, somewhat introductory. There is a lot of emphasis on bringing in and engaging new people. This is all excellent! But I don’t have much interest in it myself. Neither the content nor, to be honest, projecting the charisma to make people feel welcome and want to come back.
There are the conferences, where at least the content is a bit more novel. But the general vibe of the conferences is that they’re for people who are highly engaged and expect to be re-directing large fractions of their energy depending on what happens. And that no longer feels like me.
In the past what mostly kept me attached to the community was the social life. I knew enough people that I always enjoyed going to events for that reason alone, and there were enough parties that I could meet new people as well. The combination of moving cities and COVID more or less broke that connection for me, alas.
What do I have to offer the community?
The other side of this picture is that I don’t feel like I have much to offer the EA community these days:[2]
- I’m not deep into any particular areas of active work, so I am neither producing content nor terribly useful at reviewing it
- I do not have the spirit to throw myself into a direct work project[3]
- I don't have any particular advantage in working out where to donate over, say, the EA Funds
- I am unlikely to drastically change my career at this point
- I just have less energy than I did when I was younger
- I am not generally the one hosting all the parties!
As a senescent older EA, my virtues are pretty much that I exist, I have some earning capacity, and I’ve been through a bunch. Is that useful? I’m unsure. Perhaps my comparative advantage remains continuing more-or-less as I am and funding the people who have more to offer.
I can’t help but compare EA with the intentional community of my youth: Christianity. People don’t “senesce” out of church in the same way. There’s always a reason to go - the activity itself is regarded by everyone as valuable, regardless of whether it leads to anything in particular. The community is very welcoming. There are many roles for people to contribute something, even if it’s just greeting people or doing a bit of admin.
I fear we have yet to truly refute Robin Hanson’s claim that EA is primarily a youth movement. What could a version of the EA community look like which was compelling to people throughout their entire lives?
- ^
This post is partly a personal response to Will MacAskill's claim that it would be useful to get "old-hand" EAs out of the woodwork.
- ^
I'm going to bracket the obvious response of "why don't you change those things?". That's pretty reasonable, and maybe I will, but for now let's take me as I am.
- ^
I learned this from GTP. Honestly, I kind of hated doing it.
Some of what long-time EAs might have to offer (possibly but not necessarily including you) is:
Wow. This is my first time reading that Robin Hanson blog post from 2015.
When I was around 18 to 20 or 21, I was swept up in political radicalism, and then I became a pretty strong skeptic of political radicalism afterward — although it always bears mentioning that such things are too complex to cram into an either/or binary and the only way to do them justice is try to sort the good from the bad.
I think largely because of this experience I was pretty skeptical of radicalism in EA when I got involved with my university EA group from around age 23 to 25 or 26. I don't like it when ideas become hungry and try to take over everything. Going from a view on charity effectiveness and our moral obligation to donate 10% of our income to charity to a worldview that encompassed more and more and more was never a move I supported or felt comfortable with.[1]
It has always seemed to me that the more EA tried to stretch beyond its original scope of charity effectiveness and an obligation to give, which Peter Singer articulated in The Life You Can Save in 2009,[2] the more it was either endorsing dubious, poorly-supported conclusions or trying to reinvent the wheel from first principles for no particularly good reason.
I think this paragraph from Hanson's blog post is devastatingly accurate:
If you think that effective altruism has discovered or invented radically novel and radically superior general-purpose principles for how to think, live, be rational, or be moral, I'm sorry, but that's ludicrous. EA is a mish-mash of ideas from analytic moral philosophy, international development, public health, a bit of economics and finance, and a bit of few other things. That's all.
I think the trajectory that is healthy is when people who have strong conviction in EA start with a radical critique of the status quo (e.g. a lot of things like cancer research or art or politics or volunteering with lonely seniors seem a lot less effective than GiveWell charities or the like, so we should scorn them), then see the rationales for the status quo (e.g. ultimately, society would start to fall apart if tried to divert too many resources to GiveWell charities and the like by taking them away from everything else), and then come full circle back around to some less radical position (e.g. as many people as possible should donate 10-20% of their income to effective charities, and some people should try to work directly in high-priority cause areas).
This healthy trajectory is what I thought of when Hanson said that youth movements eventually "moderate their positions" and "become willing to compromise".
I think the trajectory that is unhealthy is when people repudiate the status quo in some overall sense, seemingly often at least partially because it fills certain emotional needs to make the world other than oneself and to condemn its wicked ways.
Many (though not all) effective altruists seem content to accept the consensus view on most topics, to more or less trust people in general, to trust most mainstream institutions like academia, journalism, and the civil service (of liberal democratic countries), and they don't particularly seek out being contrarian or radical or to reject the world.
On the other hand, this impulse to reject the world and be other than it is probably the central impulse that characterizes LessWrong and the rationalist community. EA/rationalist blogosphere writer Ozy Brennan wrote an insightful blog post about rationalists and the "cultic milieu", a concept from sociology that refers to new religious movements rather than the high-control groups we typically think of when we think of "cults". (Read the post if you want more context.) They wrote:
In a similar vein, the EA Forum member Maniano wrote a post where they conveyed their impression of EAs and rationalists (abbreviating "rationalists" to "rats", as is not uncommon for rationalists to do):
I don't know for sure what "narrative addiction" means, but I suspect what the author meant is something similar to the sort of psychological tendencies Ozy Brennan described in the post about the cultic milieu. Namely, the same sort of tendency often seen among people who buy into conspiracy theories or the paranoid style in politics to think about the world narratively rather than causally, to favour narratively compelling accounts of events (especially those containing intrigue, secrets, betrayal, and danger) rather than awkward, clunky, uncertain, confusing, and narratively unsatisfying accounts of events.
From the linked Wikipedia article:
I think seeing oneself as other than the wicked world is not a tendency that is inherent to effective altruism or a necessary part of the package. But it is a fundamental part of rationalism. Similarly, EA can be kept safely in one corner of your life, even as some people might try to convince you it needs to eat more of your life. But it seems like the whole idea of rationalism is that it takes over. The whole idea is that it's a radical new way to think, live, be rational, and be moral and/or successful.
I wonder if the kind of boredom you described, Michael, that might eventually set in from a simpler The Life You Can Save-style effective altruism is part of what has motivated people to seek a more expansive (and eventually maybe even totalizing) version of effective altruism — because that bigger version is more exciting (even if it's wrong, and even if it's wrong and harmful).
Personally, I would love to be involved in a version of effective altruism that felt more like a wholesome, warm, inclusive liberal church with an emphasis on community, social ties, and participation. (Come to think of it, one of the main people at the university EA group I was involved in said he learned how to be warm and welcoming to people through church. And he was good at it!) I am not really interested in the postmodernist cyberpunk novel version of effective altruism, which is cold, mean, and unhappy.
I think we should be willing to entertain radical ideas but have a very high bar for accepting them, noting that many ideas considered foundational today were once radical, but also noting that most radical ideas are wrong and some can lead to dangerous or harmful consequences.
Another thing to consider is how hungry these ideas are, as I mentioned. Some radical ideas have a limited scope of application. For example, polyamory is a radical idea for romantic relationships, but it only affects your romantic relationships. Polyamory doesn't tell you to quit your current job and find a new job where you convince monogamous people to become polyamorous. Or provide services to people who are already polyamorous. Polyamory doesn't tell you to have any particular opinions about politics — besides maybe narrow things like rights (e.g. hospital visitation rights) for people in polyamorous relationships — or technology or culture or the fate of the world.
When radical ideas become totalizing and want to be the axis around which the world turns, that's when I start to feel alarmed.
The Life You Can Save is an example of a radical idea — one I think we should accept — that, similar to polyamory, may affect our lives in a significant way, but is naturally limited in scope. The Life You Can Save is an expression of a simple and straightforward version of effective altruism. As people have wanted the scope of effective altruism to get larger and larger over time, that has led to the accretion of a more complicated and eclectic version of effective altruism that I think is a lot more dubious.