That is the way it is with our free enterprise market economy. Dog eat dog.

Given that the proposed Gauge 1 Model Company loco is still only a proposal, how do you know it will be “inferior” as you put it, to the proposed Aster version?

Has Mr Taylor made “inferior” stuff in the past?

Can you say Big Boy? …or was that GG1 ???

Another me-too marketing. How many of the above were on the market simultaneously - of various quality and pricing.

Now if the interloping product is merely “proposed” it would be expected that in today’s market, they wouldn’t actually go into production without enough pre-orders to guarantee a small profit, they would be daft to go into production with no assurance of sales. So unless Aster knows that G1Mco actually has a stack of pre-orders they should be fairly safe if they already have a stack of pre-orders.

That’s the way things work over here in the smaller scales, announce a product, wait till the pre-orders reach a tipping point, and only then go into production. Doesn’t matter what the competition offers if you’ve got your pre-order run of production. Not enough pre-orders, no product, sad but such is things.

I stand corrected on the progress of the Gauge 1 Model Co model making it to the market place.

Healthy competition is what we all like to see.

Welcome to dog eat dog.

Terry,

being a 'devils advocate, Aster do not OWN the rights to gauge 1 British steam models and any manufacturer is no doubt within their rights to invest in a similar model to another company. The rebuilt Merchant Navy class is a popular model in smaller gauges, so interest in a gauge 1 model is expected.

How Aster UK can lay the blame for the demise of its product is beyond me. Competition is competition. An Aster purchaser knows he is getting quality for his money, plus the support of a company that has many years experience in steam models. Can the same be said for the other company?

In ‘OO’ scale, it is common for a manufacturer to announce a new production locomotive, only to have a competitor announce a similar model. Quite often neither model makes it to the market and so the consumer misses out. Alas, when we strive to attract manufacturers to the lower price end of the market we lose out either with inferior product or no product at all.

Aster has had little competition for many years and the press release smells of sour grapes to me.

Funny, in another thread, we’re lamenting the loss of low-cost locomotives, postulating that the trend towards higher-priced locos is ultimately bad for the hobby. In this one, we’re lamenting that a low-cost alternative to Aster is bad for the hobby? (Or just bad for Aster?)

It doesn’t matter what the locomotive the upstart chose as their first offering is. The mere existence of an inexpensive source of what hopefully turns out to be a line of 1:32 British locomotives is a game changer. Look at what Accucraft has done in the US. Fifteen years ago, if I were to go to a steamup, I’d see Asters and Roundhouses. I was out at the live steam track at the Colorado RR Museum Wednesday morning, and all 7 of the locos there were Accucraft. But Aster and Roundhouse are still in business despite that. They’ve had to adapt, but they’ve-thus far at least–managed to stay around.

Aster will always have its loyal followers because it’s viewed as the Rolls Royce of live steam. They make beautiful models that run very well. But they’ve not been the only game in town for quite some time, and Andrew has had to have realized that by now. I can sympathize with him about the spcific choice of prototype, but it really doesn’t matter. Had it been a Flying Scottsman, Mallard, or any other iconic British loco the effect on people considering Aster’s loco would have been the same. Few “average modelers” would be able to afford both, so they’d choose. Aster affecianados would choose Aster because it’s Aster. Other modelers will choose based on price or fondness for any one prototype or specific features being offered, etc.

I say “bring it on.” Competition is good for the hobby. And if we’re going to argue in one thread that the hobby needs low-cost alternatives to high-priced “boutique” locomotives, then this is a prime example of what the hobby needs.

Later,

K

Link to Gauge 1 Model Company -

http://www.g1m.co.uk/ 14

If the locomotive is ‘lacking in detail’ in comparison to the Aster version, then the Aster version must be one very nicely detailed locomotive. G1MC, I guess, is most likely using Bowande to manufacture their locomotives and coaches. This company has previously produced a G1 model locomotive that was well received in the market and at an affordable price.

Link to Bowande -

http://www.bowandedirect.com/ 7

Edit: In case anyone doubts the quality capability of this company, here is a Shay I remember being announced many years ago. From memory, Wuhu Arts & Crafts (Bowande) was formed by ex-employees of Accucraft.

http://www.bowande.cn/product/elist1.asp?type_type=1&product_id=27 2

They also do a Gauge 3 (1/22.5) standard gauge Britannia class locomotive ‘Britannia’.

http://www.bowande.cn/product/elist1.asp?type_type=1&product_id=40 6

So…Aster doesn’t want any competition?

Welcome to the real world is all I can say!

I would love it if my competitors didn’t offer or carry the same product that I do.

Sounds déjà vu! Like that fit Rolf Richter had at the 2005 Nürnberg Fair when BRAWA displayed/announced their G4/5 complete with consist. He was going to sue them etc. etc. and the very next day a Magnus model was displayed at the LGB booth.

BTW since the LS community in yUK gets regularly soaked by the importers/dealers this should be a step in the right direction, provided the price reflects all the “missing detail”.

Maybe this is a good time for Aster to come out with an affordable steamer for those that would love to own an Aster but cant afford one at the current prices.

Aster always reminds me of Rolls Royce, now there are plenty of alternative to a Rolls, and for years and years Bentley’s WERE identical to Rolls only with different nameplates - yet Rolls seams to do itself quite well. As I have been told many times if people want LGB quality they will pay LGB prices. People who want Aster quality will pay Aster prices, period. This is like when Newquida came out and everyone was grousing that the end was neigh for LGB, but as we found out just because there is a cheaper version of something doesn’t mean everyone wants the lesser quality product. LGB is doing well, and I suspect once Aster gets its nose back in joint it will continue as well.

“And regardless of whetheror not you subscribe to the elitism that Mr Strong accuses Aster owners of, there are a great many folks here in yUK for whom Aster is the only game in town, and are upset by the thought that now they are not going to get a model they wanted from the manufacturer of choice.”

If the models made by Bowande are reportedly that good and that well-received, what’s the problem? The model is being manufactured, just not by Aster. Those who want the model will still have their model. It’s only those who want that model built by Aster that would be left out. That is the textbook example of brand loyalty, which qualifies as a form of elitism. If there is a significant difference in quality (such as LGB vs. Newquida), then history has demonstrated that people will gladly pay for quality.

As I read the letter, Andrew did not say he was pulling the plug just yet, just warning of a market split that would cut into sales and threaten the project (thus future projects). If there are “a great many folks here in the yUK for whom Aster is the only game in town,” then let 'em belly up to the bar and support the manufacturer of their choice. If the modelers in the UK are that fiercely brand loyal, they need to put their money where their mouth is. If they don’t, how “loyal” are they?

No doubt Andrew is a bit put off by all this. There’s part of me that would be pretty chapped, too. But as to the timing of the announcement, it is “THE Gauge-1 show of the year,” when else would a manufacturer make a big announcement like that? That’s partly why those shows exist.

But, come on… laying the blame for Aster UK’s theoretical demise at the feet of a young upstart? Sorry, but I can’t sympathize there. If you don’t want your competition copying your models, don’t show 'em your cards. That’s a fundamental principle of all forms of competition; business, games, warfare–you don’t let the other guy know what you’re doing. You can’t blame the competition for using market information you’re providing them against you. If your business model is such that you must show people what you’re doing that far in advance, then you had darned well better expect to have the rug pulled out from under you by someone who can beat you to market. There’s no “gentleman’s agreement” in large scale trains that product overlap is verboten. See it quite often.

Later,

K

“Sounds déjà vu! Like that fit Rolf Richter had at the 2005 Nürnberg Fair when BRAWA displayed/announced their G4/5 complete with consist. He was going to sue them etc. etc. and the very next day a Magnus model was displayed at the LGB booth.”

Bad Karma to mock the dead…

(not surprised though).

Kevin Strong said:

“a form of elitism.” ," then let 'em belly up to the bar and support the manufacturer of their choice." “they need to put their money where their mouth is.”

But, come on… laying the blame for Aster UK’s theoretical demise at the feet of a young upstart? Sorry, but I can’t sympathize there. You can’t blame the competition for using market information you’re providing them against you. Later,

K

Classic. Absolutely classic.

A US Media type telling subjects of The Commonwealth how they should think.

Good reading, however.

TOC

Lets keep things civil here, folks. My request for that in the Bachman thread was soundly ignored. Lets not make it two threads.

John Joseph Sauer said:

“Sounds déjà vu! Like that fit Rolf Richter had at the 2005 Nürnberg Fair when BRAWA displayed/announced their G4/5 complete with consist. He was going to sue them etc. etc. and the very next day a Magnus model was displayed at the LGB booth.”

Bad Karma to mock the dead…

(not surprised though).

Just stating facts, probably too inconvenient for you.

BTW a mfg/importer/distributor/dealer who makes statements like that will get “everyone” (with a bit of background info) in the hobby segment thinking : “Holy mackerel, what’s up??” Just like it did at the NTF back in 2005.

Well it is called competition and I’m glade to see it. Maybe we will get some locos we all can afford. Time will tell how good the product is. Later RJD

Terry,

I do empathise with you. If I was financially capable and able to purchase a Merchant Navy class locomotive in gauge 1, I would definately like it to be made by Aster for my peace of mind knowing the locomotive was built to the highest standards.

However, one manufacturer telling another what he can and cannot build is a little ‘elitist’ as stated. I feel that an Aster devotee will purchase an Aster locomotive. If the market is split as Mr. Pullen believes, then whose fault is that. Free enterprise marketting is a fact of life. If Aster believe insufficient fans will purchase a production run then that is Aster’s problem and not due to G1MC. They have a right to produce any locomotive they want. How would Mr. Pullen react if this upstart Mr. Taylor bitterly complained that Aster were encroaching on his territory? I can imagine Aster’s response.

I feel that Aster believes it ‘owns’ the British steam outline market and does not appreciate some upstart encroaching on their territory. Unfortunately, for Aster, that is not how markets work. Consumers have freedom of choice when there is a choice to be made. When Aster was the only kid in town then there was no choice and no doubt market prices (particularly in the resale market) reflected the lack of choice due the limited production numbers available.

If Mr.Pullen feels that a competitor will kill off and jeapordise future Aster sales and production then I suggest he look to his market and his loyal consumers and encourage their brand loyalty with unbeatable quality locomotives.

Aster only produce in very limited numbers so the potential market must be minusculely small so I appreciate that a competitor will have an impact. Like Aster, I believe at this stage G1MC only have a prototype running. Have G1MC commenced production?

I have always considered Aster to be the prima donna in the steam locomotive world and the best that money could buy, but alas never saw myself as a potential customer no matter how many locomotives I could sell to cover the purchase price. For the price of an Aster locomotive downunder one could almost buy a new automobile. From memory the Aster G1 Garratt, NSWGR AD60 sold years ago for around $15,000.00 and the run was sold out immediately. Other Aster models typically sell for $8000.00 upwards and one generally has to preorder several years in advance to secure a locomotive. It certainly seems an elitist market to me.

It suprises me that people with this much money to burn are not investing in blue chip stock on the stock market.

Tim Brien said:

…

It suprises me that people with this much money to burn are not investing in blue chip stock on the stock market.

Aster locomotives don’t crash.

Hmmm…

I have two Aster steamers. Rarely use them anymore. One is…different, being a LetsGoBroke/Aster FrankS.

The other…well…

The guy that owned it called me up many years ago, screaming into the phone…“You want this POS? I’ve burned my fingers for the last time!”

C&S Mogul. Horrid little fuel evaporation system.

Norm Saley sorted it for me.

Originally, took liquid fuel from the bottom of the tank in the tender, fed to a “vapourising cannister” on the left side of the cab…hoping the heat from the boiler backhead would cause vapourisation.

Whilst it does work, in cold damp weather, it seems one is always pouring hot water into the tank to keep THAT fuel vapourised.

I’ve thought about cutting a big hole in the bottom of the boiler and firebox, and putting a Barry’s drive on #2 axle.

It would be a really useful engine then.

Boy, if that don’t pixx off the Aster freaks…

But, the only two live steamers I have are Asters. Had an Aster Big Boy here for a long, long time, but 8’ minimum RADIUS meant NOT 7’11" radius.

Of course, it ran very well, whistle and bell and all of that.

Barry had to sort some gears when it had stripped it’s gearbox out, hence the stay here.

TOC

HJ,

you are correct that Aster locomotives do not CRASH, but if you see a video of an Aster locomotive running then it is like a new parent watching its child walking or riding a bike for the first time. The ‘nervous’ owners run beside or slightly behind them ever watchful in case they fall and suffer injury.

Unlike the first run of Rubys, which were known to (and were observed by this reporter) lift off the rails at speed, stub their toes, and tumble into the brush, with frantic new owners following the “smoke trail” to find and retrieve them.

Gawd, was that funny. Every single one of them, first shipment in was delivered en-masse to a local GR club meet, and like lemmings, they all fired them up in the upper “yard” and let them go, wide open throttle, where that proceeded to a down 3% gradient…and at a scale 200 MPH lifted right off the rails…we all just stood and watched as each one came down the hill…often the next driver yelling for the one in front (who was busy beating the bushed looking for his lost Ruby) to get out of the way, as his was about to go the same place the first guy was standing.

We still talk about that, and it’s been some considerable time now.

Even some of the participants are no longer with us.

TOC

$8000 to $15,000 ??? OK someone tell me at those prices, just how big is the Aster market?

Seams to me at that price point there product run is measured in the triple (and not high) digits.

Big enough, Victor, big enough.

Richard May, probably Jeremy Clarkson.

I don’t think Hammond would buy one, tho. He’d be looking for a VW powered Lancia.

TOC

Vic,

I think the Aster market is like the brass import market back in the '70s and '80’s in the smaller scales. Part of the market went to the folks that could afford the running quality of the import, and the other part went to the collectors who put them on a shelf, some in climate controlled cabinets waiting for the value to rise.

Quality costs money, regardless of scale or product.

I appreciate quality as well as the next fella, but my budget is more in the Ford arena, not the Ferrari.

FWIW.

Bob C.

Well I sure can’t see them making them by the bushels. The production runs like Ferrari and Rolls have to be on the short side and the number of folks who can cough up the capital to collect them is also correspondenly small as well.

Either way I won’t have to worry about getting bent over all this hubbub. One of the benifits of being on the poor side of the hobby.

Vic Smith said:
Well I sure can’t see them making them by the bushels. The production runs like Ferrari and Rolls have to be on the short side and the number of folks who can cough up the capital to collect them is also correspondenly small as well. Either way I won’t have to worry about getting bent over all this hubbub. One of the benifits of being on the poor side of the hobby.

I have to agree with you Vic. Even if I had that kind of money I would never waste it on a train (no matter how much I love trains and how much better the quality is) I would rather own a couple smaller live steamers then one really expensive one. I think the competition is great. Its opening the doors for those that cant afford Aster etc… Look at Accucraft or Mamod. They opened up the doors for those of us that have a budget. Even if they did not run great they still got people started into the hobby. Even Roundhouse and Regner jumped in with there entry level engines. If Aster cant do the same then someone should jump in and do it.

Shawn Viggiano said:

Vic Smith said:
Well I sure can’t see them making them by the bushels. The production runs like Ferrari and Rolls have to be on the short side and the number of folks who can cough up the capital to collect them is also correspondenly small as well. Either way I won’t have to worry about getting bent over all this hubbub. One of the benifits of being on the poor side of the hobby.

I have to agree with you Vic. Even if I had that kind of money I would never waste it on a train (no matter how much I love trains and how much better the quality is) I would rather own a couple smaller live steamers then one really expensive one. I think the competition is great. Its opening the doors for those that cant afford Aster etc… Look at Accucraft or Mamod. They opened up the doors for those of us that have a budget. Even if they did not run great they still got people started into the hobby. Even Roundhouse and Regner jumped in with there entry level engines. If Aster cant do the same then someone should jump in and do it.

I dont understand why Aster is getting all out of shape other than a certain snobbery about their perception of place in the live steam universe, its really not a question of price. Aster fans are like hyper-sports car fans they are going to buy what they are going to buy regardless of how insanely expensive or ridiculously useless the car is in actual use. A Pagani enthusiast is going to buy the Pagani regardless whether he could buy 10 Porsche’s for the same price, simply nothing else short of the Pagani will do, thats the way I view Aster enthusiasts, nothing short of an Aster will satisfy. I really dont see this new companies action outside of anything we have already seen here. Afterall how many G gauge Big Boys and GG1s did we have simultaneously appear on the market at the same time??? Yet all of them are now sold.

BTW even if I was the Powerball $500M winner I would never buy a Pagani, give me a simple Lotus and a windy road, I’ll be happy. (but I would be sorely tempted by a Bentley Merlin Meteor)

(PS if you’ll dont know what a Bentley Merlin Meteor is, Google it! OMG!)

Vic Smith said:

I dont understand why Aster is getting all out of shape other than a certain snobbery about their perception of place in the live steam universe, its really not a question of price. Aster fans are like hyper-sports car fans they are going to buy what they are going to buy regardless of how insanely expensive or ridiculously useless the car is in actual use. A Pagani enthusiast is going to buy the Pagani regardless whether he could buy 10 Porsche’s for the same price, simply nothing else short of the Pagani will do, thats the way I view Aster enthusiasts, nothing short of an Aster will satisfy. I really dont see this new companies action outside of anything we have already seen here. Afterall how many G gauge Big Boys and GG1s did we have simultaneously appear on the market at the same time??? Yet all of them are now sold.

BTW even if I was the Powerball $500M winner I would never buy a Pagani, give me a simple Lotus and a windy road, I’ll be happy. (but I would be sorely tempted by a Bentley Merlin Meteor)

(PS if you’ll dont know what a Bentley Merlin Meteor is, Google it! OMG!)

Vic, if you get a Bentley, I’ll take the Lotus off your hands! (Had an Elan S3Se for 20 years. . ) But I digress.

I haven’t seen mention of the ‘upstarts’ response to Aster’s petty website announcement that they may abandon the UK market. G1MC claims they discussed their plans to build a Rebuilt Merchant Navy with someone t Aster long before Aster went ahead. Guess the conversation never trickled up to the right people. http://79.170.40.45/g1m.co.uk/gpage8.html 1.

There’s also a suggestion that Accucraft are making the RBMN for G1MC, not Wuhu/Bowande ?

The hilarious part about all this is that Accucraft has been making models for the past couple of years that Aster made years ago! Can anyone say Bigboy? Allegheny? Did Aster complain, or did the ‘collectors’ get upset that their models were being devalued? NO, of course not. There is room for both in the market.

When Andrew realizes that most of his customers are not going to cancel their orders, he’ll calm down - perhaps.

Some people are in favor of competition in a free marketplace, some against it.

Kinda’ like in politics you get progressive types and conservative types and it seems, strong opinions and judgements, but no possibility of a meeting of the minds.

We saw this situation with LGB and their high prices at the beginning when there was no competition - those prices left plenty of room for competitors to slip in underneath. And slip in underneath they did.

I guess we all know this bit of G1 history, even Pullen should be aware of it. It’s repeating.

Adam Smith wrote the book; maybe Pullen should read it. He’s had a good long and profitable run.

I think Pullen should have written his feelings in his own personal and private diary. Then he could have looked it over the following day and thought better of it.

Public whining is just infantile. In a businessman it’s very bad form. Sorry, Tac.

Hello everyone

For anybody interested the G1M merchant navy can be seen testing below. Despite being described as inferior in some quarters it has many prototypical features that other versions may lack. I’m sure the Aster will also
Be a beautiful model but don’t dismiss this one on badge value!

http://youtu.be/NDoJkRTQKpg 11

Regards

Stuart

Thought you may like to see this little video of the Gauge 1 Model Company Merchant Navy Haulage test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCASi1-mFP4 2

Impressive!

Regards

Stuart

TOC said, “I’ve thought about cutting a big hole in the bottom of the boiler and firebox, and putting a Barry’s drive on #2 axle.”

Go for it. I would follow that build with interest.

I’ve often thought of that very same thing, only with an Accucraft locomotive.

the duplication of locos has been growing as the popularity of g1 increases

Scotsman, a4, black 5 , and class 4 tank have all been made by more than one manufacturer

the aster castle and br5 are fantastic, I could probably only afford a used one though

competition is fine, and no doubt the aster nm will be outstanding but trevs mn looks pretty

good to me

and his range of mk1 coaches look very good too, being plastic and from the accucraft factory I

think, they should be a big seller as the cost is realistic compared to brass,