LMFAOOOOOOOOO

Instead of gaslighting the developers maybe try providing evidence of why he's banned in the first place. What's the context? What did the person that you mentioned criticized so badly that he got banned from the project?

I know your kind love to talk. And focusing every effort to make an abstract arguments.

"disagreed with him"
Bagel literally said in his own issue that he wanted the project to succeed
bs take

@Leedeigo5 here's the context:
#42
and here's one of bagel's other issues: #29

Bagel seems to have been respectful. K0 and the other teenager(s) on Raven just cannot take any sort of criticism.

K0 and the other teenager(s)

and you resort to disrespect because ????

How am I being disrespectful? They've literally admitted to being teenagers. They are, quite literally, teenagers.

How am I being disrespectful? They've literally admitted to being teenagers. They are, quite literally, teenagers.

And you used it as a fact statement and not as a derogatory term?

Considering they're teenagers, I felt it appropriate to mention they're teenagers, as it explains why they are not handling actual criticism well to their "proposal" and are being disrespectful themselves, and censoring people in both GitHub AND YouTube comments, that point out these flaws in their design, and the outright incorrect facts about the tech they're wanting to use in the "spec" (since the "spec" is AI-generated). There are numerous just flat-out wrong details in their spec, the most glaring, and one of the first ones, being the SCION packet header.

A 17-year-old is more than capable of programming, don't get me wrong; I was writing code even younger than that, but they do not have the emotional maturity or experience to handle building an entirely new Internet, especially when they don't even know what the Internet is, as what they're building is not a new Internet at all, despite what K0 has said repeatedly. They are conflating the World Wide Web (at best) and Internet, which is NOT a good sign for someone leading the development of a "new Internet".

I'm not sure if k0 stated they will follow full on specification of scion, I mean if it works it works, because they are not bound by any compliance necessity since scion itself is far from being widely adopted, nevertheless it bothers me too. Also in the latest video he said that spec v1.2 is in progress, so let's see if anything changes then.

A 17-year-old is more than capable of programming, don't get me wrong; I was writing code even younger than that, but they do not have the emotional maturity or experience to handle building an entirely new Internet, especially when they don't even know what the Internet is, as what they're building is not a new Internet at all, despite what K0 has said repeatedly. They are conflating the World Wide Web (at best) and Internet, which is NOT a good sign for someone leading the development of a "new Internet".

You clearly watched only the first video on that topic. In the second and third he repeatedly clarified that they are not building a new internet, but an https replacement

You clearly watched only the first video on that topic. In the second and third he repeatedly clarified that they are not building a new internet, but an https replacement

I did watch the second video, but my point still stands. Someone who gets such a basic fact wrong is simply not capable of building anything regarding a new Internet or World Wide Web, especially when it comes to censorship-resistance and privacy/anonymity. When dealing with these kinds of issues, people's lives and freedom are on the line. You may not believe that, but that just clearly shows you live in a (currently) first-world country.

An HTTP/S replacement will do quite literally nothing to stop any kind censorship, surveillance, especially when they claim make it look like existing HTTP/S traffic, under the guise of "mutually assured destruction".
In case you forgot that part of the first video, K0's argument is that in order to cripple or destroy Betanet, then adversaries would need to compromise/cripple normal HTTP/S traffic.

Govts. are already trying to do that, even without Betanet existing. So based on K0's own logic, Betanet is already dead.

But hey, if you want to build an HTTP/S replacement based on some 17-year-old's fundamental misunderstanding of some bullshit philosophy, especially after they've already started doing the exact thing they claim to want to stop, then go ahead.

Im failing to see where he got the facts wrong, also no, I do not live in the "first world country"
Edit:
I mean where is he wrong after he corrected himself

You already acknowledged that he conflated the Internet and the World Wide Web, or even just HTTP/S. That is a HUGE, fundamental misunderstanding of what he's/they're building. If he can't properly distinguish between the Internet, the World Wide Web, and HTTP/S, then why should he be in charge of the development of an entirely new Internet/World Wide Web/HTTP/S or whatever the fuck it is.

Here's a few, and these are just off the top of my head:

If he's not following the spec of SCION, there's no point in implementing SCION. It's not SCION then, so why include it?

The list of "IP bearers" in Layer 3 is just wrong. Additionally, broadcasting HTTP/S-like traffic over LoRa, for example, is VERY, VERY, VERY inefficient and will flat-out NOT work, unless you want speeds slower than the 90s (that's if you even get the full message to begin with).

The spec mentions various components of the system without properly defining them (again, because this is just all AI-generated bullshit)

There's no explanation for why they're implementing, for example, ChaCha20-Poly1305 instead of something like XChaCha20-Poly1305. It's possible that nonce reuse, and the other issues associated with ChaCha20-Poly1305, may not be an issue for this specific part of the system, but that should've already been addressed (but the AI doesn't really "know" anything so it's all just rando-generated bullshit).

Making it "look like normal HTTP/S traffic" isn't enough on its own to be "censorship-resistant". This is also a HUGE issue in itself, because it shows a huge lack of understanding of all the various technology/methods that adversaries, such as authoritarian Govts. use to identify traffic of various protocols, even ones that are supposed "undetectable".

And again, Govts. are already attempting to compromise and censor normal HTTP/S traffic, without Betanet even being a thought in their minds, completely destroying K0's "mutually-assured destruction" argument.

If you still do not get this, and how this project is destined to fail (and based on the "mutually-assured destruction" bullshit argument, it already has), then you are beyond help.

So if this is happening I won't join Raven nor support them like seriously? They can't take criticism they just like youtubes team!

Thank you @eemmmmg for your efforts.

They do want to burn the project to the ground with their own hypocrite and/or unprofessionalism acts, which is already trust breaking. It makes it clear it’s most likely not some elaborate scam, but I still think the organization of the project is not implemented well enough for them to be doing monetary incentives
It just feels like they are biting off more than they can chew

But hey, i see the vision right yet they are not even trying...

But sadly it's not possible with the idea they are offering, Hell we need some control of the internet infrastructure to make it even more of "not dull enough" to make it work.

Too big too fast, and too hot to handle. If I were 17 and behind this I also would self-sabotage, probably. God knows I do it still at 37 to a lesser degree.

It makes it clear it’s most likely not some elaborate scam

I mean, they've pocketed 60,000 USDC (centralized token by the way; Circle can freeze that 60,000 at any time) for an AI-generated "spec" with the promise of paying out to developers that do the work of implementing the "spec".

I don't know about you, but handing $60,000 to a 17-year-old whose only public work is stuff like a Windows debloater (which, while commendable, is fairly basic), a music player, a text editor, a tool to show you the differences between files, etc. all only written in Python (and seemingly AI-generated too), and then having to trust that they'll pay out that money in the future is a recipe for disaster, especially when the spec is extremely vague in some parts, blatantly incorrect in others, with virtually no explanation for ANYTHING that's done in this "protocol". It's just "THIS is THAT" or "THIS MUST be THAT" or "THIS happens HERE" with not much else to explain what the fuck any of this is for or how it addresses certain issues.

To everyone reading this, I encourage you to compare the specs of Tor and I2P, to this spec of Betanet. You do not need to be a developer or cryptography expert to see the differences in quality of virtually anything between the two.

For example, just the specs for Tor Guard nodes alone is more in-depth than the entirety of this Internet, Tor/I2P, World Wide Web, HTTP/S, baby's first libp2p project alternative (which, again, the fact that it has changed so much in the past few days as to what this actually is, is another glaring issue that shows K0 has absolutely no idea what he's doing): https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/core/torspec/-/blob/main/spec/guard-spec/algorithm.md?ref_type=heads
You'll see there's detailed descriptions of each process, there's diagrams, there's a why for a lot of stuff, and that's JUST the guard node spec.

Here is an example from I2P: https://geti2p.net/spec/common-structures this just goes over the common data types, models, and any algorithms used, that the I2P protocol uses. This page alone is also more in-depth than the entirety of this Betanet "spec".

And just for another, here's the Bitcoin whitepaper which describes in general the fundamental mechanics of how Bitcoin's blockchain works, how it solves certain issues with existing payment networks, even though the initial release in 2009 varied slightly to this paper (which was published a couple months earlier in 2008): https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

And Satoshi acknowledged weaknesses of the protocol both in the whitepaper (even just in the Abstract!) and on BitcoinTalk in a respectful manner, unlike the Raven Team who bans people from GitHub, Discord, etc. and claims there's "no central point of failure at all" with arrogant, incorrect statements like, "a protocol can't be a rugpull, dingus". And Satoshi had been working on the first implementation for a couple years before writing the paper. Raven Team just put out this AI-generated paper, and everyone was like "well where is it? can we see it?" and they're like, "no, but maybe someday!"

Yea it must be crystal clear for everyone now.

I'll never put on a finger to it neither anyone else, it's such a waste of the good money, efforts and time.

Thank you good sir.

It makes it clear it’s most likely not some elaborate scam

I mean, they've pocketed 60,000 USDC (centralized token by the way; Circle can freeze that 60,000 at any time) for an AI-generated "spec" with the promise of paying out to developers that do the work of implementing the "spec".

How about we make a fund (in ETH obviously) which will be payed out... to Circle once it freezes that 60,000 ;L

Update: 0xc68Ed735C37E1c3f437D2115d191830e380BdCDe; lmk when Circle does it

Update: Email sent to Circle Support

I don't know about you, but handing $60,000 to a 17-year-old whose only public work is stuff like a Windows debloater (which, while commendable, is fairly basic), a music player, a text editor, a tool to show you the differences between files, etc. all only written in Python (and seemingly AI-generated too), and then having to trust that they'll pay out that money in the future is a recipe for disaster, especially when the spec is extremely vague in some parts, blatantly incorrect in others, with virtually no explanation for ANYTHING that's done in this "protocol". It's just "THIS is THAT" or "THIS MUST be THAT" or "THIS happens HERE" with not much else to explain what the fuck any of this is for or how it addresses certain issues.

The entire "spec" is AI slop. We should all report this repository immediately. This is a scam.

To everyone reading this, I encourage you to compare the specs of Tor and I2P, to this spec of Betanet. You do not need to be a developer or cryptography expert to see the differences in quality of virtually anything between the two.

For example, just the specs for Tor Guard nodes alone is more in-depth than the entirety of this Internet, Tor/I2P, World Wide Web, HTTP/S, baby's first libp2p project alternative (which, again, the fact that it has changed so much in the past few days as to what this actually is, is another glaring issue that shows K0 has absolutely no idea what he's doing): https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/core/torspec/-/blob/main/spec/guard-spec/algorithm.md?ref_type=heads You'll see there's detailed descriptions of each process, there's diagrams, there's a why for a lot of stuff, and that's JUST the guard node spec.

Here is an example from I2P: https://geti2p.net/spec/common-structures this just goes over the common data types, models, and any algorithms used, that the I2P protocol uses. This page alone is also more in-depth than the entirety of this Betanet "spec".

And just for another, here's the Bitcoin whitepaper which describes in general the fundamental mechanics of how Bitcoin's blockchain works, how it solves certain issues with existing payment networks, even though the initial release in 2009 varied slightly to this paper (which was published a couple months earlier in 2008): https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

And Satoshi acknowledged weaknesses of the protocol both in the whitepaper (even just in the Abstract!) and on BitcoinTalk in a respectful manner, unlike the Raven Team who bans people from GitHub, Discord, etc. and claims there's "no central point of failure at all" with arrogant, incorrect statements like, "a protocol can't be a rugpull, dingus". And Satoshi had been working on the first implementation for a couple years before writing the paper. Raven Team just put out this AI-generated paper, and everyone was like "well where is it? can we see it?" and they're like, "no, but maybe someday!"

K0 is banned from my GitHub as of today.

I would love to see his reaction to this whole thing

I would love to see his reaction to this whole thing

Well, maybe tomorrow when he gets out of 7th period Chemistry he'll make a video featuring my comments about how I'm somehow wrong, with some tangents about "mutually-assured destruction" and nukes and stuff again, with a "dingus" thrown in occasionally, and him searching up SCION and being like "well it's like an uhhh... internet architecture thing" again when/if he addresses the packet header discrepancy lmaooo

"mutually-assured destruction" and nukes and stuff again, with a "dingus" thrown in occasionally, and him searching up SCION and being like "well it's like an uhhh... internet architecture thing" again when/if he addresses the packet header discrepancy lmaooo

Brooo I can't lmaoooo 🤣

here's the wallet on Solscan https://solscan.io/account/65Y6xAbu6z5HJWL6CZycck4TsArYudnUE2rVxKxkfHSu#transfers

people are still trading the BETANET TOKEN
https://bags.fm/3REkm7R5HxCjAnNSMR8ktuv8Ghub71RxZzfWfWheBAGS
https://photon-sol.tinyastro.io/en/lp/HSxQVwiPwL91zzLHLv2hWsaEt5sCpmgNsxKwTrz9E8XQ?handle=2937514fc8bc4ce6d882d0

I would love to see his reaction to this whole thing

Well, maybe tomorrow when he gets out of 7th period Chemistry he'll make a video featuring my comments about how I'm somehow wrong, with some tangents about "mutually-assured destruction" and nukes and stuff again, with a "dingus" thrown in occasionally, and him searching up SCION and being like "well it's like an uhhh... internet architecture thing" again when/if he addresses the packet header discrepancy lmaooo

Lmao, I've noticed all the criticism he has responded to seems cherry picked. On the latest video he even shows the GitHub issues, showing us that he is aware of them but for some reason has not responded to any of them in any meaningful capacity. Why is he only responding to youtube comments, and not the actual repository full of people who actually know what they're talking about. So it's a possibility that everything here will never see the light of day.

I would love to see his reaction to this whole thing

Well, maybe tomorrow when he gets out of 7th period Chemistry he'll make a video featuring my comments about how I'm somehow wrong, with some tangents about "mutually-assured destruction" and nukes and stuff again, with a "dingus" thrown in occasionally, and him searching up SCION and being like "well it's like an uhhh... internet architecture thing" again when/if he addresses the packet header discrepancy lmaooo

Lmao, I've noticed all the criticism he has responded to seems cherry picked. On the latest video he even shows the GitHub issues, showing us that he is aware of them but for some reason has not responded to any of them in any meaningful capacity. Why is he only responding to youtube comments, and not the actual repository full of people who actually know what they're talking about. So it's a possibility that everything here will never see the light of day.

Maybe we should take the initiative and comment on the videos and ask viewers and K0 to go and read these issues, while also commenting a summary for the ones that are too lazy to click a link somehow

just wanted to drop this gem https://github.com/majestrate/llarp