A Chinese language interview with imprisoned Chinese freedom blogger Ruan Xiaohuan’s wife Ms. Bei on the Conversations with Yuan Li Bumingbai podcast gives insights on Ruan’s core beliefs and influences, including the ethos surrounding the open software and freedom of information that propelled the social construction of USENET and the Internet in its early days as well as a portrait of a young Chinese couple today.

Students of Chinese and sino-literate students of Chinese affairs may find Yuan Li’s Chinese-language podcasts and the podcast transcripts that show up a week or two later useful in improving their understanding of China today.

An excerpt of the Chinese language Wikipedia article on Ruan’s blog “Programming Musings” provides another perspective and additional Chinese-language sources, via a DeepL machine translation.

Programming Musings (June 10, 1977 – ), real name Ruan Xiaohuan, is a Chinese computer practitioner and dissident from Quanzhou, Fujian Province, who lives in Shanghai, China. He has been writing articles on Blogger since 2009 under the name “Programming Musings”, including various internet security knowledge, wall climbing methods, and anonymous teaching; he has also criticized the Chinese Communist Party and the government of the People’s Republic of China, and has been arrested by the Chinese police in May 2021.

Early years

He was born in 1977 in Quanzhou, Fujian Province ^[1]. His mother, Zhuang Xiuzhu, was a member of the Revolutionary Committee of the Chinese Kuomintang; his grandfather (Chen) and grandmother (Zhuang Yanqing) were from Quanzhou who moved to Taiwan with the government of the Republic of China in 1949 and had the nationality of the Republic of China; and his father, Ruan Wenling, was an associate professor in the Chinese Department of Quanzhou Overseas Chinese University and a member of the Chinese Democratic League^[2][3]. In 1990, he joined a computer interest group when he was in junior high school, and he learned assembly language and C in the school’s computer room because he was interested in the DOSvirus and wanted to understand its internal implementation mechanism ^[4 ]. Programming with a passion for computers, but gave up the diploma because he did not pass the fourth year in college^[5][6][7][8], has been engaged in intrusion detection system, security, security audit industry ^[4], in During the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games, he served as the chief engineer of information security system of the General Assembly [ ^6][7 ] ^[9 ].

Blog

He founded the blog “Programming Musings” on January 15, 2009. The blog’s early content focused on computer technology and software development, but switched to sharing ways to climb over the wall after the massive blocking of overseas websites by the authorities on the eve of the 20th anniversary of the June 4 Incident, the Qian Yunhui incident in late 2010 and the Jasmine Revolution in China in February 2011. He has published several blog posts calling for public protests in the streets, and runs the open-source project “Princeling Party Relations Network” on GitHub, which exposes the systematic corruption of the Chinese Communist government, and had published 712 blog posts before his arrest. The blog also offers e-book downloads, offline browsing, and email subscriptions. ^[1][6][10]

In November 2017, Ruan had an allergic asthma attack, which was so severe due to the systemic triggered by receiving hormone medication injections that his doctor recommended that he be hospitalized directly, but he insisted on going home to recuperate in bed in order to update his blog, while apologizing to his readers for the delay in updating the blog ^[8][11].

From Chinese language Wikipedia article 編程隨想 Random Musings (name of blog and pseudonym of its once-anonymous blogger Ruan Xiaohuan)

Media reports:

• Legend of the Chinese ‘Cyber Prometheus’ of China’s Great Firewall by Jennifer Zeng in the Nikkei Shimbun, April 4, 2023
• Shanghai court jails blogger for seven years over ‘subversive’ posts by Gao Feng for RFA Mandarin March 22, 2023.Translated by Luisetta Mudie. Edited by Malcolm Foster.
• 2014 China Internet Heros: Programming Musings Blog by Xiao Qiang via Google Translate, January 1, 2015 in 泡泡網民報告 PaoPao Netzien Report

Ruan Xiaohuan’s wife Ms. Bei  @ruanxiaohu32309, interviewed below,  has been active on Twitter lately.   贝—阮晓寰 (编程随想)妻子 Bei, wife of ProgramThink

You can explore Ruan Xiaohuan’s 编程随想的博客 blog yourself even if you don’t speak Chinese using machine translation tools such as Google Translate or DeepL. These tools, albeit imperfect. have been improving rapidly over the past decade. Click on Random Musings to give it a try via Google Translate.

I added some links, YouTube videos and photos to the translation of the podcast transcript.

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Conversations with Yuan Li podcast EP-048 Who is “Programming Musings”? (Chinese language transcription of podcast episode)

EP-048 谁是“编程随想”？(listen to Chinese language podcast at this link)

Timeline:
2:40 Ms. Bei talks about Ruan Xiaohuan’s arrest
7:43 How Ms. Bei found out that Ruan Xiaohuan was the “Programming Casualty”
16:49 Ms. Bei describes how she met and married Ruan Xiaohuan
24:42 Ruan’s views on work, money and whether or not to raise children
30:56 Ms. Bei’s thoughts after finding out that Ruan Xiaohuan is the “Programming Random Thoughts”
36:11 What Ms. Bei thinks about the “Programming Musings” article
41:06 A voice from a fan of “Programming Musings”
44:19 Why Xiaohuan Ruan chose to write a technology blog to find a way to change China
46:52 Xiaohuan Ruan’s journey of being an independent developer and then starting the “Programming Musings” blog
49:12 Does Ruan feel lonely when he’s been writing anonymous blogs for over a decade?
51:38 Anomalies in Ruan’s home before his arrest
54:12 How Ms. Bei thinks “Programming Musings” was breached
56:38 Ms. Bei talks about the injustice suffered during the investigation and trial of Ruan Xiaohuan’s case
1:06:31 Guest Testimonials

Full text version:
Yuan Li.
[00:00:03]
Welcome to the Bumingbai podcast, I’m host Yuan Li. Last year, a friend mentioned “Programming Musings” when explaining to me about internet firewall security. He wrote: “Talking about walls and jumping over walls reminds me of ‘Programming Musings’. He is a legendary figure in China’s Internet security field, a thorn in the side of the Chinese Communist Party. A task force of the Ministry of State Security was set up against him. They have been tracking him for years, but nothing has been found. The end of the incident is also quite mysterious, the main character suddenly disappeared without warning, which made who actually is the “Programming Musings’ blogger a permanent mystery.”

The netizen went on to write: “‘Programming Musings’ strives to awaken the Chinese people from their ignorance, numbness and obedience, teaching them how to draw and screen real information, how to avoid being trapped in an information cocoon, and how to think independently, all of which he has done in contrast to the CCP’s information control and forced brainwashing policies. He has done everything to change China, as opposed to the CCP’s policy of information control and force-fed brainwashing. His story has long been familiar in the field of Internet security, but there are still many ordinary people who know nothing about it, so this legend and his legendary story are worth spreading, and the more people who know about it, the more people’s wisdom can be inspired.”

This webmaster also recommended several blog posts by Programming Musings. The one I was particularly impressed with was [link routed through Google Translate] “Why the court always fails to catch me – a summary of security experiences from ten years of anti-party activities “. This netizen said that he hoped I could find someone to talk about programming random thoughts. But it was too difficult to find a guest with relevant technical and humanistic knowledge who was willing to come on the show to talk about such a legend, so I had to put the selection aside for now.

It wasn’t until March of this year that Ms. Bei tweeted a request for help, saying that her husband was the Programming Musings blogger. She said that the programmer, real name Ruan Xiaohuan, was taken away by the government on May 10, 2021, and sentenced to seven years in prison in February 2023 for “inciting subversion of state power.

This Friday, May 19, was the original date of Ruan Xiaohuan’s second trial verdict. Ms. Bei shared with me what kind of person Ruan Xiaohuan was in life, why she never knew her husband was writing this blog, why she only discovered his identity on the Internet more than a year after his arrest and first trial verdict, and what she thought about the identity and blog content of Programming Random Thoughts.

Hello Ms. Bei, can you tell us what happened on May 10, 2021?

Ms. Bei.
[00:02:43]
That day May 10 at noon, I previously called the farmers spring water? Then the doorbell rang, I thought it was Farmers Spring water delivery, then I asked my husband to go out to get the water, he was in the study well. He went out of the study to get the water. Then I heard someone at the door seemed to say no movement, and then some light fighting sounds, I quickly rushed to the door when I could not see anyone, came in a man, plainclothes ah.

At that time I thought it was really someone checking doors to do a burglary, or something bad happened, I confronted him, I questioned him, I said you are trying to rob us? Then he stared at my eyes for a while, and then showed a public security card, saying we are the police. After that, a dozen people came in and started to search the whole house.

At that time my brain was in a confused state, I read his relevant documents, I knew he could not lie to me, and a dozen people, there were plainclothes also wearing police uniforms. And after they came in, they took control of all the electronic equipment placed in my living room, and took control of me as well. This way I have no way to get my phone to see anything. It was lunch time, I was ready to do this lunch, do the dishes on the table, ready to call Ruan Xiaohuan out to eat, but now it is not eating, and then I did not have the appetite to eat, so I had to wait.

Yuan Li.
[00:04:05]
So he was no longer there was he?

Ms. Bei.
[00:04:06]
Yes he was no longer there.

Yuan Li.
[00:04:08]
When you went out the door, he was already ….

Ms. Bei.
[00:04:10]
I couldn’t see him. Yes, and then they searched one room after another, and the longest search time was in his north-facing study well. Then I was blocked outside, and they started to block a line on the toilet side, so I had to let them withdraw the line when I went to the toilet.

They kept searching inside, and after a few hours, my husband was escorted in by a few people. At that time I thought, although I and he blocked a lot of people, that is, they have police ah, there are plainclothes, are blocked between us well, I know I speak with him or how is impossible, but I think he should at least look at me, so big things happen ah, so I have been staring at him, I from the middle of the people ah, the middle of the crowd, I have been looking at him, but he did not have a glance He didn’t even look at me.

Then it seemed that he had something to deal with, and then they were brought to the door of the north-facing room, and then he pointed to the north-facing room where his desk pointed, and then said something I could not hear, and then taken away.

This is the last time I saw him, the last time I saw him before the trial. And then they said, you either rest, I will retire to the south-facing bedroom well. And then there were about three or four people in the bedroom, so they were watching me. And then they would talk to me, ask me something, like this. One of them said, “We’re the same age, I understand what you’re doing, but your husband, do you know what he’s doing? He’s writing this blog, he’s writing an overseas blog, and he’s saying what he’s going to do in the first step and what he’s going to do in the second step, he’s going to overthrow our regime.
I was a little confused, dumbfounded. He also said some things that my husband and I only know between us. For example, I have forgotten this detail, but I knew that they must have wiretapping technology. Then I said, I said, what do you want to ask, you just ask me, no need to make it look like you know everything, to make me say a lot of things. I will cooperate, what you want to ask, you ask directly. Then he stared into my eyes, as if they were investigators to see whether a criminal is lying or how, such a state, is this way to stare at me.

I am very frank, I think I did not break any law, my husband I do not believe he will do something illegal, so I will cooperate with you. Now that you all know some of the things we talked about in the bedroom, right? Then you guys are going to ask anything I am sure, I have nothing to hide, you guys just ask. And then after that they gave me this feeling that they kept asking where your husband got this money and then why you have so much money in this account too? We are separate, and we have our own savings. Then he also said, we also know that you often go abroad for business ah, or to go abroad ah, blah blah blah. Then I knew they knew a lot about me, they also knew my tendency to shop on Taobao, all know.

I was thinking, is it really and my husband his this technology (related), because my husband is a network security engineer, well, he is a hacker, the spirit (on the yes). I only know this. I thought it would be related to the network above. Then 2021 was the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Chinese Communist Party, Shanghai is also likely to have some clampdown on free expression, that may be his speech crossed some sensitive line ah. Then I thought maybe it had to do with that passing trend and I would just have to put up with it. Anyways, I do not know the real situation I did not have a cell phone, I couldn’t check on a lot of things. I just had to put up with the situation. There were a dozen people in the room so I couldn’t have done anything, right?

Yuan Li.
[00:07:42]
You didn’t know anything about what Ruan Xiaohuan had done then, right? And then how did you later find out that he might be the Programming Musings blogger, and how long did it take you to find out?

Ms. Bei.
[00:07:55]
It’s been a long time. I didn’t know that they were asking questions on May 10th, and then I thought that he would be released soon after this special period was over. But I didn’t expect him to be formally arrested after 36 days in detention. After that, we and I have been trying to fight for him through the channels allowed by the law, to do something to fight against the characterization of the charge of inciting subversion of state power. But the lawyer I hired could not go to the detention center to meet him during the investigation period.

Then I waited until …… is they also postponed the investigation. The reason I was given at the time was that they hadn’t found some of his overseas connections to investigate, and then at the same time said that he had explained on the first day what these blog posts were written by him. I once questioned why there was a delay in the investigation period when the case was so simple. But that’s the answer I was given, it seems his overseas connection has not been found, the case to be investigated again. And then wait until August for this Yangpu District Procuratorate. The Yangpu District Procuratorate, as a grassroots procuratorate, should not have jurisdiction over this, or accept this kind of case, which involves national security cases, should go directly to the intermediate people’s procuratorate. But in Yang (Pu District) Procuratorate (Procuratorate) is delayed for more than a month, and then transferred to the second Central Procuratorate (Note: Shanghai People’s Procuratorate Second Branch) to the. During this period, we have been going to the petition office, the relevant petition office, to understand the situation. No one gave us any information.

Yuan Li.
[00:09:17]
When you say we, who are you and?

Ms. Bei.
[00:09:19]
I’m with his parents well. No information was given to our family, and then the lawyer could not meet. I’ve been waiting for the Yangpu District Prosecutor’s Office for more than a month, and then transferred to the Second Central Prosecutor’s Office, and then after about half a month, the lawyer went to read the files, and then went to the detention center to meet Ruan Xiaohuan for the first time.

I waited for him (the lawyer) at the entrance of the detention center after that meeting. I also wanted to know what exactly (Ruan Xiaohuan) had said, what he had said on the blog, and then he was charged with such a serious crime. The lawyer still said he couldn’t tell us, because there was a confidentiality agreement or something like that. He just said some very basic things, let’s say he might …… I kept asking: how serious was he? How many blog posts did he actually write? That lawyer then told me that this reconnaissance other learned that there should be more than 700 articles. Then they may say he has more than a hundred articles, and then he himself admitted maybe a dozen of them. I knew this information at that time, but nothing else.

After that a long time was delayed in court, which I did not expect. According to the law, the case was to be concluded in three months, but it was delayed until March of ’22. The lawyer told me that an official letter came, saying that the trial was suspended because of the epidemic, and it was suspended until February of ’23. Until February of ’23, suddenly the lawyer told me that the trial would be held on February 10, and the family could go to the trial. There was no mention of the resumption of the suspended trial, so I couldn’t do anything for the entire suspended trial, which lasted almost a year.

Yuan Li.
[00:10:52]
So you that time …… I’m asking you mean, when did you know that he was programming random thoughts, a process that you didn’t even know about?

Ms. Bei.
[00:10:58]
None of that. There was no information at all in this process that could be given to me. At the time his mother said, what did he actually say? Kept trying to get information from the lawyer’s side and there wasn’t any information to tell her. We had wanted to say, “Let’s find out for ourselves, too, just look at overseas websites and find out what his status is in order to find out what he actually said and how serious it is. But because I couldn’t go over the wall before, I never thought I would have to learn this stuff, and then I also thought he just had a blog overseas, so many overseas blogging platforms, how am I going to find out? There is no place to start.

And then before the investigation period, the case officer also said to me: ah, do not you know what he said? You can go on his blog to see for yourself. Then I said, how do I look? Then he said: Oh, so wait until later when the case is clear, you can certainly go to see. He still has a blog, you will know ah, he has two sides, there is a side you do not know. I think about his identity, I don’t know now, but sooner or later the verdict comes down, I can definitely know, I can know what he really is.

So before the first trial verdict came out, I really did not think at all, I had to find out his identity with my own ability. Until the first trial verdict on February 10, get the verdict, such a verdict inside, what information is still not. Even his most basic “incitement (move) subversion” of this speech evidence are not, there is nothing to say. There is no blog name written on it at all. So I think there is a big problem with this. And generally speaking, the comments in the blog, basic common sense know is within the scope of freedom of speech, right? Then why did he say that these remarks belonged to incitement to subvert state power?

After I got the verdict, I started to do one thing. One is to find a human rights lawyer, and the other is this question in my mind, I want to solve it myself. But the most important problem was to find a lawyer, so I mobilized many friends to help me. I also told my friends in WeChat that I had gotten the verdict and realized that I might have fallen into a misconception, a stereotype of thinking, that the verdict did not even contain the original evidence, and that he was probably innocent and should be acquitted. I have said this in WeChat, I also said in WeChat, I will hire a lawyer from the Beijing Mo Shaoping Law Firm.

After that, I wanted to go to Beijing on February 19 to sign the lawyer agreement. On February 19, they also said, “Do you think he was wrongly accused because there is no evidence? I was surprised that he knew what I thought. I instantly knew that it must be from my WeChat records, they knew, right? I said something like that on WeChat. Then they also knew, said: Are you going to hire a Mo Shaoping lawyer? These are all they should not know, and they know, all of them. I knew as soon as I inferred and speculated that the information was obtained from the WeChat monitoring.

Then I wanted to hear what they had to say. For me to say this acquittal ah, I am into the thinking of this situation, they said: Hey, do you think this verdict is no evidence? Then they said: Do you know that this is because of the asymmetry of information? He said this. Then he said, I feel that I have to find out what he is in the end, the identity of the blogger, he said more than confirmed my idea. So after I started, I learned how to climb the Internet firewall well. At that time, this wall was called the scientific Internet, the word wall is very sensitive.

Yuan Li.
[00:14:29]
It was in February of this year that you started learning to go over the wall.

Ms. Bei.
[00:14:32]
In fact, it is only in March this year, because of the February 10 sentencing, I went to Beijing on February 19, to go on the train before the state security stopped talking. So March began to learn this science Internet, and then spent time digging out the identity of his programming random thoughts.

Yuan Li.
[00:14:49]
Can you tell us how you (found it)?

Ms. Bei.
[00:14:51]
This coincidence is very coincidental. I didn’t think it would be so easy to unearth, I just typed “lost” “blogger” and the year “2021” into this google, and it popped up. The Asian Weekly article popped up. It was a story with this time on it, and then the programming randomly stopped updating.

Yuan Li.
[00:15:06]
Stopped updating the blog.

Ms. Bei.
[00:15:08]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, and my husband, he’s actually pretty straight. He chose this kind of, write the name of this blogger, will not have any very funny name. The name is called Programming Random Musings, so it’s definitely his style. I think I have a gut feeling that it’s him.

Then I went in to read the blog written by this blogger well. Including his habit, his thoughts are very clear, and he has this habit of recording, so he does a blog review every year, it is easy to see a directory of the same thing. Then I looked at it and found many of his characteristics, and my husband is exactly the same. So from many details I knew at once that my husband had been writing articles under the blog name [Link via Google Translate to English (or other language; see top of page) machine translation of his blog:] Programming Musings ; in Chinese 编程随想 for 12 years.

At that time, I also had a thought that came up, that is, at the end of 2017, he had an acute attack of asthma, when the emergency input of these hormonal drugs later triggered the whole body skin erysipelas well, it is very serious. He was bedridden. I was thinking about that time, how he updated his blog, what is the state of the blog, I have to go to see. Then I looked, and sure enough, from the end of November 2017 to the beginning of 2018, his blog is written in every article that he was very busy recently, so the update is late and so on and so forth. So all of a sudden, I confirmed his identity without question. So I was at the Internet cafe, I simply couldn’t help it, I cried out, cried out. So this is my whole process of confirming his identity, it is this way to confirm.

Yuan Li.
[00:16:48]
Can you say a little bit about how you met, that is, when you got married? You don’t know that he was programmed to follow, that is, what kind of a person he was in life, what’s the best thing you remember about the two of you? Can you say a little bit about that.

Ms. Bei.
[00:17:01]
I met him in 1996. It was when we had just arrived at East China University of Science and Technology, 華東理工大學 and our whole class sat on the lawn of the square to introduce ourselves. At that time I said something quite humorous, I said I originated from Shanghai. Afterwards, he told me that he was impressed by me because of this statement.

Yuan Li.
[00:17:24]
You two were in the same class, weren’t you?

Ms. Bei.
[00:17:26]
Right ah, is the same classmate, both chemical engineering department chemical process majors. He gave me the impression that he was a relatively cheerful, naive, nerd-like person, right? When I was in college, I actually didn’t have any special impression of him in freshman year. Just know that he is very famous among his classmates, because his computer ability is very strong, he is the best computer in the class. Then he also …… this person is also very strange ah, he often sacrificed his time to help students answer questions. He spends one or two days a week, that is, a period of time, the whole class can go to him to answer questions, he is waiting for them in a classroom. I know this person, but I don’t remember much else. But once Ubisoft (Ubisoft) in our school opened a lecture. Then I went to listen, I was bored to listen, he was also in. Then he sat where there was an empty seat next to him, well, so I sat over there. That’s when we probably had got better acquainted.

After that, I often bumped into him during self-study, and he would also run to that classroom. Later I learned that he often looked for my bicycle under each building, based on this to locate me in the building, and then look for me one by one in the classroom.

Yuan Li:
[00:18:43]
So he created random encounters?

Ms. Bei.
[00:18:46]
And then it was, I actually didn’t like to read inside the university because I didn’t like chemicals, actually at that time. What about him? He is a person who is very fond of computers. He is in the university, people often say he is three points a line this way: dormitory, then the library, then classroom. But I said add a cafeteria, because there is always a meal to eat. So he walked around like this, just like these lines. Because he spent a lot of time in the library to learn this and computer-related knowledge by himself. Sometimes he does not go to the professional class, because the dormitory inside their joint venture bought a computer well, there is a shift, that is, which person is which time period on the computer. Then he gave up the professional class time, because then there is no one in the dormitory, he can be unlimited on the computer, so a person.

Then we are equivalent to a relationship, he will often spend the night, we study, I am tired, we will go out to the playground, while walking, while chatting. So it was at that time that I learned that he had a very large reading volume, which surprised me. I was amazed at his memory of names, foreigners, and foreign names, which he could not forget. I was amazed at his amazing memory and his rich knowledge, knowing everything. So maybe that’s when I got a very good impression of him.

After that we were, I graduated in 2000, and then he was in the school before graduation, a software company to do things. After that, when I graduated in 2000, because he did not pass the professional course or English level 4. He chose not to pursue a diploma. He wanted to go with me to join the community. After that, we were married in 2004.

Yuan Li.
[00:20:35]
You didn’t object to it at the time, that is, in China, at the time, because you guys were just a few years younger than me, and I remember in the 90s, it was still important to have a college diploma.

Ms. Bei.
[00:20:43]
Well, first of all, I think he’s very capable, and I think with his intelligence, I don’t even need to question what he decides. So I never thought to question it, he said there is no diploma for this thing. I didn’t think about it. But his parents do feel bad about it, especially his father. His father is a university professor, for his own son, he grew up with a very good education, and then is a key high school, all the way to a key university, and then in the end to give up the university diploma, his father is not quite accepting of this.

Yuan Li.
[00:21:17]
Well, do you have any memories of what was the best thing that happened to you two?

Ms. Bei.
[00:21:22]
Well, actually we have a lot of happy times between the two of us, but the most recent one is a time of good memories, probably the time we traveled together to Palawan, Philippines in 2014. I can see that photo of him on the internet, wearing a plaid shirt, carrying a red strap bag, very sunny, very bright, smiling very happily. That’s when we took that trip to the Philippines.

Yuan Li.
[00:21:49]
Is he a sunny, cheerful person in his life?

Ms. Bei.
[00:21:53]
Yes. The most classic thing about him is his laughter, just hahaha. The most important thing is that you can hear Ruan Xiaohuan laughing in the whole classroom or in the first floor of the building.

Yuan Li.
[00:22:07]
So you two have a pretty interesting marriage, too, in that your money is separate and he keeps himself in his study most of the time, and you are basically not in his study, right? Why is that the case?

Ms. Bei.
[00:22:19]
Yes, our marriage is indeed very odd in the eyes of others. This system of paying for your own expenses separately, I think it is a reflection of each person’s independent financial ability, independent individuals, I think it is very normal. Especially because we both have a different outlook on spending. He is the kind of person who will spend money for something useful and is very wise to make purchasing decisions and choices. And my concept of consumption may be more arbitrary. The difference in the concept of consumption, I think he proposed not to buy many things for me, I think it is very understandable, anyway, I have money, I will buy it myself, so this pay your own expenses system is better ah.

And before, before the wedding, he also gave me some gifts, but after the wedding, he did not give me gifts. The regular family is this kind of New Year’s Day, or whatever, always some of this gift to show it? I was very much against that at first, and also complained to him about it. I said well do you still know to send roses, right, but only one. I asked why you only send one? You just said that you have one heart and one mind. This is just fine, right, then how do you feel after you have been married after even a single heart and soul of a rose is not sent?

His answer is also very classic. The first thing you need to do is to get a good idea of what you want to do. (Yuan Li: too much. (Ha ha.) At that time I thought: forget it. But later, especially this time, is a different life experience, after I experienced many things later, I can understand why he said such words at that time. A lot of people say that if you don’t have a clear idea of what you want in life, you will indeed get lost in some of your immediate and false desires, and you will go shopping at your own will. But when you have a clear goal in life, you know that money is actually an expendable product. That is, money itself is a consumable, because you have to spend money in order to satisfy some of your false desires, then you will be in a continuous cycle, you want to earn more money, you will waste time, and then meet to pursue some false desires. It’s true, the mindset is very important, only if you free yourself from this, you can really find what is really meaningful in your life, to focus your time there.

Yuan Li.
[00:24:41]
So let me ask again, he has been out of work since the year 2011, right? And this is not between you two, so is there any conflict?

Ms. Bei.
[00:24:50]
Well, he should have been out of work from around 2011 or 2012 (not working) because he didn’t tell me exactly when, and then I guessed on my own that that’s when he stopped working.

We both actually agree on this. It’s not that I have to work, because work is just a channel to earn money, right: you can work part-time, you can be your own boss, you or there are other places to get this source of money enough for your living needs. And his point of view at that time was that he already had enough money over there, and before he died, he felt that with his such low requirements for this material life, it was enough. He even said to me, what do we need so much money for? In the future, we will donate it when we die, although not many also go to donate it. At that time, I was very surprised, but later, especially after I read the “Cafe at the End of the World“, or a series of such books, I could understand his thinking very well. So I have no problem with him not working at all. Including my own is also, in fact, I now have 17 years of experience working in foreign companies ah, I changed seven or eight companies ah, is among them there is a time when you don’t work. When you are off duty, you are very free, this is a kind of adjustment, a chance to pursue your own path, I think there is no problem.

Yuan Li.
[00:26:10]
Then you two are really perfect for each other. So do you two talk about politics between you? If you don’t talk about politics, what do you talk about?

Ms. Bei.
[00:26:17]
Politics is as a topic of current events then, he will occasionally relate to, is purely from a certain current event before talking about this, there is this thing that happened, but will not say ……

Yuan Li.
[00:26:29]
Like what?

Ms. Bei.
[00:26:30]
Uh, for example, he would particularly emphasize this issue of herbal medicine, he was very much against it. And then there’s also, let’s say, this tumor treatment plan thing, and he’s talked about all of these things. And then there’s also the issue of additives in that previous milk powder.

Yuan Li.
[00:26:46]
Of tainted milk powder.

Ms. Bei.
[00:26:47]
Right. He said all that. And then including the fact that we don’t want the kids, actually he doesn’t want the kids. And then I also said: why? At that time I was not so unconventional and didn’t say I didn’t want children. He talked about social problems, education, medical problems, many problems, food safety problems. With all these problems, he thought, “Why should we have children, right? So many problems.

袁莉:
[00:27:12]
Does he think there are so many problems, is it not good to bring children to such a society, or is it because of what? Or is it unsafe?

Ms. Bei.
[00:27:19]
Uh, he didn’t think it was a good fit, it wasn’t a good fit, it was a very bad fit. And then that question you asked earlier, the main question, I’ve forgotten because I’m a little bit talkative.

Yuan Li.
[00:27:29]
No no. I mean, do you talk about politics or do you talk about current events? You don’t actually talk about politics at all, do you? What do you talk about when you don’t talk about it?

Ms. Bei.
[00:27:37]
Yeah, talk about what right? In fact, like you also have a question, I have ignored it, that is, he has been closed in the study, and then I do not go in to disturb him, how do we maintain our marriage relationship, or how do we maintain the intimate relationship between the two of us?

In fact, I think two people being in the same room maintains a relationship, this is my woman’s feeling, but he may not be this idea, he feels that two people together, is to be soulmate, need to be soulmates, must have common topics. So, he has been trying to find some common interests with me again. Including after marriage, he encouraged me to learn Go. He said that Go can exercise your way of thinking, globalization, and a lot of strategic thinking, which is a very good thing, let me go to learn. And then because …… I used to learn it, but then I didn’t keep up my interest in it.

Then he came up with a way to say that we do not want to go to that, on the side, we have a very good favorable environment near our home, we have a gymnasium well, and then there is a tennis court ah, there is a table tennis hall ah, what can be, and the bowling alley. So we often go there for a while to play this kind of thing, and then do not stick to it.

Then later he said how about this, you play this, Starcraft, we play this also have common topics. He actually said that he later said he did not want to play the game, just to find a common topic with me, and then went to spend time playing this. Then there are, anyway, tried a lot. The last also introduced me to science fiction, what Ender’s Game ah, he had tried a lot, and including giving me a book list ah, all to try to make me and he have more topics well, have done to try.

Yuan Li.
[00:29:25]
That is, she still pays attention, that is to say, there should be a common topic between you two, or a common hobby, right?

Ms. Bei.
[00:29:30]
He paid a lot of attention to this, including later when he was very sick during that time, because I was taking care of him at first. He said if I wasn’t at home, he would be very scared. Then I refused or excused a lot of important business trips, but there was one trip that I couldn’t push, I pushed it several times, so I had to travel for a week. Then I asked his mother to come and take care of him. After that I thought I could go back to work when his mother was there, right? So I was away for several months, and then I came to see him and bring him medicine.

I guess it was during this time that he felt that it was not good for us to go on like this, and that we would get further and further apart. So from then on, I think his attitude towards me seems to be a little different, and and was very unhappy with all the time I put into work and sometimes for me to work late, and affected part of our schedule, he would lose his temper, so when the epidemic came I quit in May 2020, that was a major reason.

Yuan Li.
[00:30:33]
You’re just staying home, you’re with him, right.

Ms. Baeh.
[00:30:37]
Yes, yes, yes, we do. I spent a lot of time reading books that he hadn’t given me before, and then there were walks and bike rides together, and doing a lot of things that I wanted to do and he wanted to do, but I didn’t have time to do. The relationship between us was getting better and better at that time.

Yuan Li.
[00:30:55]
So what did you feel when you read his blog after you found out again that he was the programming randomizer? Did you blame him for keeping it from you?

Ms. Bei.
[00:31:04]
Yeah, you’re right, I was very conflicted. I know he is programming random thoughts after is very worried and very scared, because the network above is to what, a lot of …… “Prometheus” is okay a title ah, what “Assange ” ah, “Snowden” ah, I look at me while very scared.

When I read his blog, I just have a feeling, I want to see what he actually wrote, in the end how serious. When I want to defend him, I want to find some basis for his defense. After he was arrested in 2021, I spent a lot of time studying criminal law and learning defense techniques. I do have some relevant legal knowledge.

The first thing you need to do is to look at the summaries of the yearly summaries. 2021, the last summary, I look at what he wrote in the end. The first thing you need to do is to look at the table of contents, and then browse through a few highly sensitive blog posts to see how serious they are and how sensitive they are. Then I looked at some blog posts of my own interest. I remember my deepest impression of one is,[original link routed via Google Translate to English]  ” Why I want to write this blog – self-analysis of motivation “, after reading that blog, I have this understanding of him ah, I feel a …… hey, this is the Ruan Xiaohuan I knew in college.

Yuan Li.
[00:32:19]
Why do you think he wrote this blog?

Ms. Bei.
[00:32:22]
He is actually a very pure person, actually a bit naive and simple. He was very committed to doing the one thing he was sure of. He is also a very dedicated person, he has always been a person who loves science. Including his childhood idol, Einstein, and then after he engaged in the IT industry, I think his idol should be Stallman, Richard Stallman, the founder of the GNU (project) well.

He admired freedom and open source spirit, and he would devote himself to many things. Let’s say he quit his job to do open source software, I would have known, I vaguely feel that he will go to write technical blogs. Because he once told me that the level of people around him is a little too poor, can not find a person who can talk about technology in-depth. Then I think he went to this blog to post articles, there may be some technical chatter but he can communicate well.

So I knew he would definitely be writing a technical blog, but I didn’t think at first that he would get involved in politics, I really didn’t think so. After reading his blog posts, I know why he is like this. Because he is still adhering to his spirit of freedom, the spirit of network freedom, he may be uncomfortable with the use of network technology to do this thing of freedom blocking.
His two favorite movies, one is “V for Vendetta” and the other is “The Matrix” . Well, what I want to say is that he is like Neo, who chose to swallow the red pill, to face the real cruel world, and then to do the kind of continuous, but in fact, the hope of this kind of struggle, for his own goals. So I understand, I think he will do so, he will persist in writing such a blog, for his own want to achieve a thing, to achieve his own value.

Yuan Li.
[00:34:14]
I particularly like the fact that he himself in one of his essays earlier, he has this quote from Bertrand Russell, the English philosopher and mathematician, saying what I live for – of course this is very famous – he says, ““Three passions, simple but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life: the longing for love, the search for knowledge, and unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind.”

Ms. Bei.
[00:34:37]
Yeah, that’s how he is. He’s very idealistic, very simple. All his values, his behavior is unified because he’s very …… he figured this thing out and he believes it, so he doesn’t have a …… like a lot of ordinary people ah, it’s a little bit confusing. Just like I was confused before, my values are not so unified, so doing things will be a moment to do these kinds of values, a moment to do those kinds of values. But he is very unified.

Yuan Li.
[00:35:04]
A physical thing, I guess, is this kind of word-for-word thing. We’re talking about.

Ms. Bei.
[00:35:09]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He’s such a unified person. And, I remember once we watched a very interesting cartoon together, called ” Coco” well. It was about going to the world of the undead. How can people in the world of the dead return to the human world, that is, not to be forgotten by people, is to be remembered in the human world, the photo of Ta, Ta can come back, that is, not dead. Permanent death means that no one in the world remembers Ta anymore. At that time, Ruan Xiaohuan told me that, in fact, even if you have children, your son may remember you, but it is not certain that your son’s son will still remember you. But if there is to be a thing left in this world, so that many people remember you, you are really always alive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcMoQ0sD_8M

Yuan Li.
[00:36:03]
Ah, it’s really ……

Ms. Bei
[00:36:05]
Yes.

Yuan Li.
[00:36:06]
What he said, it’s pretty good, I don’t even know what to say. But when you read his articles, those articles, do you get a sense of trepidation? That is, I read …… just for example, one of his most famous articles, entitled “Why the court always fails to catch me – a summary of the security experience of ten years of anti-Party activities”, he has such statements inside the article, such as: ” I have been smearing the party state for many years”, and there is also for example, “Back in 2011 during the Jasmine Revolution in China, I posted several blog posts with the nature of inciting subversion, and then parenthetical note, “those three apparently can be rated as the major crime of inciting subversion of state power “, I wonder what kind of a feeling you have when you read these sentences of his?

Ms. Bei.
[00:36:52]
The first time I read an online article that said this about him, I was sweating. Because I know myself that Article 35 of the Constitution, of the Chinese Constitution, guarantees human rights and freedom of expression. I also read the main framework of his blog posts, the table of contents of all the articles, and the tone of his blog posts. He is doing a comprehensive and objective analysis based on facts. So from his consistent purpose, I don’t think he is guilty of inciting subversion of state power. But there is this: his own blog post wrote these words, I was a head of sweat. That is, I know that he is a person who is very arrogant and sometimes speaks very straight, but in the Chinese speech environment, such straight talk is really risky.
So I was, at that time, very frightened. Especially like our generation, our parents went through the Cultural Revolution, right, they usually …… I said some critical words at home, criticizing the social status quo, my father will immediately stop me, you do not say so outside ah, or something.

But because I have been working in foreign companies well. The culture of foreign companies is very liberal, and we respect individuals to express their own views. We encourage diversity. Recently, many foreign companies, in particular, have been advocating change in order to adapt to the new economic environment. Human society, regardless of the organization, is in a constant state of change to promote progress. Therefore, including myself, I have also worked as an organization leader, I am also the most worried that subordinates do not speak, they must speak. We collect many views of a method that is brainstorming well, to speak, you can understand how the subordinates are thinking. A lot of things to promote or a lot of this good point is from brainstorming, to promote, but also must be through brainstorming to be able to have a push to implement. So I myself do not feel that freedom of speech will have such a big risk, this is what I have been, is this kind of attitude.

So I just keep thinking about how to go for my husband in this case, let more people know, so that more people can stand in solidarity with him. I saw that he had such sensitive words written in his own blog post, I was sweating, and then I looked at this carefully, I settled down a bit, and then go to see this, in the end, how to say this thing, right?

First, he said “smear”. On the Internet, we know that they are witty, or ironic, or flirtatious techniques to create. The “smear” in the network language is essentially “criticism”. That criticism and self-criticism is very good, even the Chinese Communist Party advocates a thing, right. So this word smear seems very sensitive, but in fact I do not think there is anything wrong with the essence.

The first thing you need to do is to get a good idea of what you’re getting into. This really seems to be a big label again. But if you look at his time, I’m talking from a legal point of view, in 2011 – I specifically looked at it – from February 24 to March 5, 2011, he wrote four blog posts. And then starting with the second Jasmine action, he went and published some information about it. The slogans of the Jasmine Revolution are food, jobs, housing, and notary public, and they also include demands for judicial independence, freedom of the press, and democratic freedom of political reform. I think that this is a kind of a siege to change China. This jasmine action, its name is called …… I think the network said, “jasmine revolution”, a single just a name, you have to look at what it actually is.

I don’t think such an action itself constitutes subversion of state power, and then he has relevant information published in his blog post, but it also can not be held on him to incite subversion of state power in this crime. So from the legal point of view, I feel a little more at ease, and his time has long passed the criminal prosecution period, so I’m not afraid. I was really worried at first. Later I think this is too much to worry about.

Yuan Li.
[00:41:04]
Here are a few questions I got from a fan of Programming Musings — Ruan Xiaohuan. This fan sent me a private message on Twitter last year, asking me to pay attention to the disappearance of the Programming Musings blogger. But we didn’t have any clues at that time, and we didn’t know where to find this person. Ta was very careful, Ta said that a same of his voice had been taken and so he made the recording using an AI voice. I’ll try to play the recording of the AI voice that he sent me.

Recording of “Programming Musings” fan.
[00:41:37]
Hello everyone. As a long-time listener of the podcast, I’m honored to be a part of this episode. My name is Lee, and I work in IT-related technology. Let’s cut to the chase. Some people say that Programming Musings is an amazing democracy fighter, a glowing candle in the darkness, while others say that he is just another lapdog of the Western hostile forces who hate China.

As a regular reader who has read many of the blogs of Programming Musings, I would like to share my personal feelings. The content of his blog posts covers a wide range of topics, including information technology, history, politics, psychology, management and other disciplines and fields, and his articles are all encompassing, but I feel that what he says and does revolves around one main line, which is to tell people how to get information, how to screen information, how to think independently, how to learn to expand, and how to break out of their information cocoon.

He shares the technique of jumping over the Chinese internet firewalls because he wants to help people get more sources of information from the Internet. In many of his articles, he constantly cautions readers to always question him. He is always reminding people of the importance of independent thinking. Sometimes he seems like a senile old man, nagging young people to take care of learning to expand themselves, and to be aware that they need to overcome their human weaknesses and not just stick to their favorite subjects or opinions so as not to trap themselves within an information cocoon. Isn’t what Programming Musings doing exactly what academia teaches? Isn’t dealing with all those fake news on the internet, those ever more common romance scams, those endless conspiracy theories, exactly that exactly where what the Programming Musings teaches can be applied? Isn’t taking a break from the narrow-mindedness and obsession of TikTok and Twitter just the thing to break out of our information cocoons? So for me personally, the Programming Musings blog has been of great benefit.

As for those controversial topics, they are just his personal free expression, you can agree or disagree, it is everyone’s freedom. That is just the independent thinking that he always hopes everyone can do.

Finally, I would like to answer the two questions Yuan Li asked me. Firstly, why do you continue to pay attention to Programming Musings? The answer is: I appreciate his great knowledge and respect his social mission. His fate actually maps the fate of every Chinese person, and it is sunny if he is well. The second question is: Why did you use AI voice to participate in the program? The answer is that in the current Chinese context, there are so many sensitive areas that you just don’t know where the red line is. Even if it’s OK one day, suddenly it’s not OK later. This, combined with the constant advances in regulatory technology — facial recognition, voice recognition, gait recognition, etc. — means that you could face nasty consequences if you say the wrong thing. You have nowhere to hide.

Yuan Li.
[00:44:18]
Next, because of Programming Musings that …… I’m not like this fan, there are probably more than 700 articles most of them has has probably read, I also only recently began to read some. I asked Ta to give me some questions, and Ta said that Programming Musings is a legendary figure. His first question was: There are many people who have pushed for progress in China, like Liu Xiaobo, Chen Guangcheng, Xu Zhiyong and Ding Jiaxi all have clear political ideals and aspirations and put them into action.

But Ruan Xiaohuan chose a different path. He was more concerned with teaching the people to think independently. Xu Zhiyong is more like those warriors who show up at the last minute in an assault on the tower. Ruan Xiaohuan, on the other hand, tries to influence the fundamental pursuit of the nation, making them wise rather than brave. His actions clearly have profound implications for China.

Ta’s question is: Why did (Ruan Xiaohuan) choose to do what he did? I don’t know if you have any ideas.

Ms. Bei.
[00:45:15]
Well, he has a highly integrated personality. When he felt something was right, he would devote his time to it. And he feels that the value of life is to leave something useful to the society, this is a way for him to never die. He also mentioned that he thought that in the future, this kind of AI might be a comprehensive replacement for human beings, so what can he do to keep himself alive? One is to transmit his spirit to the network. He has said that such a similar method works well.

So I think he made this blog to share some of his thoughts to others, including his former university inside, so like to answer questions with others. He grew up like this, he would often be in the neighborhood of this community giving a class. Many children would like to go to listen to him speak, he will go to share his knowledge of this science. He is such a person, so he will go to write down his thinking in his blog, he would share a lot of technical things, and then to inspire the public to do this independent thinking, critical thinking. Of course, he also sees some bad phenomena in society, he will also think deeply about what the root cause is. He wanted to make improvements, including what he wrote in his verdict, and what he said in court at the trial, he admitted that he wrote these blogs, but his starting point was to make the country better. This is such a very simple idea, he persisted, long-term, on the free, without any pursuit of this fame and fortune, to devote to do this thing this way.

Yuan Li.
[00:46:51]
This fan’s second question is that Ruan Xiaohuan was the chief engineer of the information security system for the 2008 Olympics. He was the chief engineer of the information security system for the 2008 Olympic Games. By definition, he was a member of the party-state system, but instead of following the trend, he chose a more difficult path. That is, what was his journey like? I don’t know if you have some ideas.

Ms. Bei.
[00:47:13]
This is actually a misunderstanding. He took this project in 2008, because he was in the Venustech [Qixingchen 啓明星辰], the Qixingchen R & D (lead) head (people) well, so he is the project’s chief architect, chief engineer. In fact, he is not the system at all, you have to know, because he has no university degree. So he doesn’t even have the four basics social security benefits [Pension insurance, medical insurance, unemployment insurance, work injury insurance, maternity insurance, housing fund]. He doesn’t care how high his salary is, he has never cared about this. So actually, like me now, I am working for a foreign company, but I have comprehensive social security. I can also enjoy a lot of retirement as a security mechanism, but he does not have one. Then we got married. My parents have been pushing, saying he did well to settle in Shanghai since the pay there is better. But he does not care, he never cared about these, he does not want a Shanghai social security account, is such a person, you say he ……

Yuan Li.
[00:48:05]
He’s such an unconventional person.

Ms. Bei.
[00:48:07]
That’s it. I have times when I think about it and I can’t hold back the tears. He is such a person, is doing these things silently and now he is suffering this way. February 10 when the trial began, he looked really thin …… I have never seen him that thin. His hair was all white, basically all white. And he’s just under 46 years old ah, just this year and nine months, he’s like this …… how much stress he’s under? In complete isolation inside. Before, because I didn’t know exactly what he had done, I actually blamed him a bit in my heart for hiding this high-risk thing from me. But when I saw him like this on February 10, when the trial started, I didn’t have any other thoughts. What he has done, to suffer this kind of crime, has also all paid. I want to get him out immediately. Why should he be treated like this, right? So after February 10th, I just had one idea, I just had to get him out as soon as possible, that’s all.

Yuan Li.
[00:49:13]
There is another question raised, let’s say that Ruan Xiaohuan has persisted alone for more than ten years, kept it a secret from the outside world for more than ten years, and from his family for more than ten years. This kind of loneliness is unimaginable to ordinary people. Was there not a trace of his life? It is how he could endure such loneliness.

Ms. Bei.
[00:49:33]
Actually, I don’t think he’s alone. A person who reads so many books and keeps improving himself by writing blogs, he has pursuits. He has books to keep him company, and so many fans to keep him company, I believe he is definitely not alone. Before writing the blog, he might be lonely. Because he once said a kind of, is the feeling of few heroes, that is, a lot of his skills, there is not so many people at his level that he can talk with. Hhe may be lonely. But after writing the blog, I do not believe he will be lonely, although he is a person shut inside the room ah, he has been the sound of tada tada tada, the sound of the keyboard. I do not believe that he will have time to be lonely, so he is not lonely.
But he said that indeed in life things happen by chance, just or I believe him too much. In fact, before there he started saying strange things, well, I just ignored them. For example, a few years ago, when Liu Xiaobo was in trouble, he once mentioned it to me. He also talked about Liu Xiaobo’s wife, for her to go around to hire a lawyer, when he was ……

Yuan Li.
[00:50:36]
When Liu Xiaobo died.

Ms. Bei.
[00:50:39]
I don’t know if it’s deceased, or ……

Yuan Li.
[00:50:40]
It was in 2017 that he passed away. Well, he was arrested in ’08, arrested in ’08.

Ms. Bei.
[00:50:45].
08 years. That should be between 2008 and 2017, he has mentioned Liu Xiaobo’s case, he said Liu Xiaobo’s wife is running around on for Liu.

Yuan Li.
[00:50:54]
Liu Xia.

Ms. Bei.
[00:50:55]
Then he said: If one day a group of State Security people rushed to our house and took me away, would you be afraid, would you also go running and hire a lawyer for me? He looked at me with his eyes wide open, and I looked at him with my eyes wide open. I thought, how can you ask me these questions, I did not say a word. I said, “Don’t be ridiculous, don’ joke like that. Then he stopped talking, that was one time.

And then there was his strange behavior these last few years, he often gets very annoyed if I call him out in the study. Then after 2020, when we go for a walk, he will sometimes kill a return to see well, and all the signs, it is ……

Yuan Li.
[00:51:39]
In fact, this external environment is increasingly oppressive to this kind of situation, in fact, his own heart, a little think he may be found out, or how how how?

Ms. Bei.
[00:51:49]
Yes, it was very clear, and in retrospect, he actually knew that he was going to be found out soon and that there was going to be some injustice. He knew that very well. Even he, because he was hiding it from me well, he used a joking way that would come to test me. For example, a few months before he was arrested, he used to joke with me that someone would come to pick him up in a helicopter soon, that AI would pick him up in a helicopter. Then I said I was also joking with him, I said, “Will you take me away? Then he did not say anything. So he actually knows.

Yuan Li.
[00:52:31]
Let me ask you a question, just say that he was knocking around inside the room, that is, knocking words up for what, writing articles. You have not asked him, what are you writing, you do not bring it to me to see?

Ms. Bei.
[00:52:39]
I always thought he was programming. Because I once called him out to dinner …… I often call him when he would lose his temper, how he said, I’m programming, thoughts can not be interrupted ah, to articulate, this is such a complex program, you have to know it is difficult to resume ah! I also understand that programming is going to be like this, so I do not dare to disturb him.

But I’ve noticed in recent months, because he was arrested a few months ago, I also found him particularly abnormal, including some signs of abnormality near our home, also makes me feel that there are some abnormalities, or there are some potential dangers. 

(Yuan Li: like what?) For example, at the beginning of the 21st, there was always the sound of water dripping upstairs, then I asked him to go upstairs with me and knock on the door, so that the upstairs with our property inspection, but the upstairs just did not open the door, dead. Then my husband called, and then he said that the caller was a very young man’s voice. Anyway, there are many signs, on the hard not to open the door, and then my husband said that time and I went up together, even though the property is in, they do not open the door, and then back when my husband shut himself in the study. And I knocked on the door and I said let’s go to the neighborhood council, go to the street side to reflect on this situation and let them cooperate. He was very annoyed, he said not to go well. Later also argued, anyway, is some signs well, I think ……

Yuan Li.
[00:54:00]
He actually feels it, doesn’t he.

Ms. Bei.
[00:54:01]
Yeah, yeah, he’s all feeling it and then he’s all prepared for the worst, prepared for it. This is something that I know very well right now, just know.

Yuan Li.
[00:54:10]
(Fan of Programming Musings) Another question he had was – and I actually think there’s probably no way you can answer this – was that he had this very extensive knowledge of information security, and had been playing cat and mouse with this Internet police for over a decade, but he was eventually tracked Arrested. Did he get carried away, forget and leave tracks, or was there something else going on, and how did the police arrest him? I’m sure many people who go over the wall are concerned about this. I didn’t know you could ……

Ms. Bei.
[00:54:33]
In fact, I know that these partial technical classes, I certainly do not understand, I do not know anything. But because he himself is engaged in network security well, everyone should have some basic security awareness, so over the years, he has been inculcating it in me. For example, he insisted that I turn off all my computer cameras off, and then covered front camera and rear camera on my phone phone. And on his own ……

Yuan Li.
[00:55:02]
So many years all like this.

Ms. Bei.
[00:55:03]
He has to talk about me if he sees out and sees my phone’s camera exposed. Then he himself does not use Alipay, does not use WeChat. Just a primitive lifestyle. Then when buying things ah what, maybe I use Paypal to handle making purchases online. So all these he has this ……

Yuan Li.
[00:55:26]
Does he do it all in cash?

Ms. Bei.
[00:55:27]
Yes, he is using cash, and then or pulling the card (swipe card) this way, in the outside consumption he pulls the card so. The company’s main business is to provide a wide range of products and services to the public. These I know, other purely technical, I really do not know anything.

As for how he was actually tracked down, I think he can discuss it with him after his release, and I am now building a Twitter feed. I found a lot of fans on Twitter who are very knowledgeable about cybersecurity, and I feel really happy to get to know them through this platform. Because once I had a period of time has been thinking, I want to do for my husband out of prison to prepare well, I want to give him to record some notes, on what happened in the past few years the major things, so that when he comes out can be a …… can see these things, and then to pay attention to these things, immediately can do a follow up, can go to keep up with the times. So that he can keep up with this era, this new technology well. I have wanted to do this thing. Unfortunately, my skills are too poor . Those Twitter friends are very good, when the time comes they will communicate with him. I think a very good network of friends can be established can be established that way.

Yuan Li.
[00:56:38]
That next you can’t …… front you said some, but you can’t next say some more, for example, this Ruan Xiaohuan his case is in the courts. What kind of difficulties have you encountered during the trial process, What difficulties have you encountered. Do you see injustice there?

Ms. Bei.
[00:56:55].
Actually, the whole case, from his arrest, they searched without a search warrant coming in. And then it was not until May 12th that they showed me the warrant. And then his detention warrant was only obtained by me two weeks after he was taken away. All of this makes me question the procedure. This was the investigative period.

Then when it came to the prosecutor’s office, it was the grassroots Yangpu District Prosecutor’s Office that made the arrest, which they had no right to do. The case is a national security case, but also incitement to subvert state power, which is incitement to subversion, which is within the scope of freedom of expression, the suspect himself and the case officer, he has a subjective judgment.

So generally speaking this grassroots procuratorate is not authorized to accept this kind of, is subjective tendency of such issues. But the Yangpu District Procuratorate arrested him, and then to the court stage, it took a year and four months, such a long time to trial, which makes me feel suspicious, there are procedural problems. And then get the first trial verdict, even the most basic, he did not have the evidence of that speech, which speech is not within the scope of freedom of expression, but to incite subversion, you have to say the evidence of speech. Who claims who cites evidence, right? There is none, there is no evidence of speech.

In my opinion, this kind of cross-examination should be enough to overturn the conviction, so I have been hoping that the second trial should be open and fair, to reflect the rule of law. I also know some people on Twitter. They saw my Tweet and sent a private message to me, saying that I should avoid talking about politics well. The reason why I wrote this is because every citizen has his or her own political ideas or political views, so to speak. But just as political issues are not for the courts, we can’t be politicizing legal issues either. So that’s why I wrote in my tweet, mainly about my husband’s case, to avoid talking about politics. I set out from that point of view.

The basic logic of all human social activities is personal interest, so from the point of view of interest, I also hope that these case officers can weigh the pros and cons. They had been trying to conceal his identity as the Random Musings blogger, and then the family found out about it themselves. What they assumed is not true so they should modify their position and then including from the beginning they ……

Yuan Li.
[00:59:17]
What kind of assumptions are you referring to when you say their assumptions don’t exist anymore?

Ms. Bei.
[00:59:20]
In fact, they started May 10 rushed in, did that search and took him him away violently. That was very strange. Because of the previous cases I am aware of, the procedure for handling incitement to subversion is to first invite them to drink tea at the police station, that is, to first try to reach an understanding, right? His case didn’t follow that pattern. Their first move was to take him away and he has been in detention ever since. Why did they do it this way? Everybody should understand that. They wanted to destroy his blog but they didn’t destroy his blog. Later they kept his status as the Programming Musings blogger a closely-guarded secret. They want to handle this case quietly. That is what I think.

After that, in March this year, his identity as the Programming Musings blogger was revealed, but his blog is still there, right? And then what was his speech? Ah, to be charged with this kind of crime, it is a all out there — everyone can judge for themselves.

So they, as I said, these case officers, will have to weigh the pros and cons. The continued incarceration of him is not a meaningful way to reduce his influence or to promote domestic stability at all, right? But it will possibility become a judicial scandal, and it will affect the image of Shanghai as an international metropolis, and it will even involve international human rights concerns, right? So I think the second trial should be reconsidered from the perspective of weighing the pros and cons of how it reflects the fairness of the judicial system.

Yuan Li.
[01:00:43]
So that’s what you’re hoping will change in the second trial? That is, what is your claim?

Ms. Bei.
[01:00:48]
In fact, the first trial verdict has got the collegium said, written, according to the law is to be sentenced lightly. That even if the verdict is confirmed, even if you take a step back, even if the verdict is confirmed, then according to the law the penalty is less than 5 years imprisonment. And again a lighter sentence could be half, less than 2.5 years, right? That he is now the state of detention, detention for a day to count against a day of imprisonment, that has been detained for more than two years, that he may soon to be released from prison. This is the worst, a step back to say that he was convicted, not to mention that the first trial verdict could not even be proven on the basis of the speech evidence. So of course I am convinced that the second trial will change the sentence.

Yuan Li.
[01:01:33]
This fan he has another question, that is, prisoners of conscience use their lives and futures to fight for a better life and future for all of us. ta say how can we do stand by and do nothing? If someone wants to help you and Ruan Xiaohuan’s parents, are there any channels?

Ms. Bei.
[01:01:50]
In fact, I see a lot of fans who are concerned about him are worried about our financial problems and want financial assistance, in fact, I think that we still do not need it. The attention and concern of so many fans is a very powerful solidarity, as well as in the exercise of social monitoring this function, which we have been very grateful for. And there are many fans who are actually doing something to save him in silence, so that’s fine, I feel very grateful.

Yuan Li.
[01:02:19]
So what’s next for you? Do you feel scared about the future?

Ms. Bei.
[01:02:23]
Well, actually I think the only reason I’ve been insisting on doing this is because I saw him in that state on February 10, and I just had this one thought, that I wanted to get him out as soon as possible, and I couldn’t think of anything else. As for the future plans, I think I hope we can discuss it together after he comes out. But I firmly believe that after he comes out, we will certainly have a much better relationship than before, because we are no longer each other, or he has nothing to hide from me, do not know, there is no hiding, will be more harmonious. And I went through all these things, I also have no possibility to return to the previous state this way, and have changed a lot.

Yuan Li.
[01:03:05]
You mean, what do you think you were like before this?

Ms. Bei.
[01:03:08]
I used to think it was just that my life had been relatively smooth, so to speak, so I don’t actually care about politics.

Yuan Li.
[01:03:18]
Actually, you don’t say you don’t care about politics, you just don’t care about current events, right? Most of us Chinese people, we do not care too much about politics because they have no way of actually being concerned about politics.

Ms. Bei.
[01:03:27]
Yeah, couldn’t care less, yeah. And then I think I did before, just muddling through, I guess. But now I feel like my husband is doing something that makes sense and I feel good about that. It’s just that I feel like I would have felt worthwhile anyway, just by getting him out, that’s all.

Yuan Li.
[01:03:45]
Is there anything you didn’t say, let’s say you have anything in particular you want to say that I didn’t ask about. I especially like that you said he’s like that Neo, which is that he would swallow the red pill.

Ms. Bei.
[01:03:58]
Actually, before I did, just in the last few months, just a few months before his arrest, didn’t I realize that there was something wrong? Subconsciously, a woman’s intuition, but I don’t believe he would do something very risky, because he is a very cautious person, and he cares very much about both of our lives, he would not take a big risk, and his skills are there, there will not be a big problem. Plus, I think he’s a geek locked in a room by himself, what could go terribly wrong, right? But I knew he was spending a long, long time doing something that he felt was meaningful, and I didn’t work anymore, so I wanted to make my life meaningful and get involved in that thing. So I asked him, I said, “What are you doing in your study, tell me, so that I can also feel a sense of value and meaning, right? But he just looked at me and wouldn’t tell me. Then because I kept staring at him, squinting my eyes at him, he said, “Go learn this programming first. Have you read the Python book I told you to read? You don’t know anything about technology now, how can I tell you about it? So he led me back to what he wanted me to program.

Yuan Li.
[01:05:12]
Right, right. He just makes you believe that he’s programming, not writing.

Ms. Bei.
[01:05:17]
Well, that’s one. In addition, he wanted to use my curiosity well, to guide me to learn programming. According to what he said, to learn programming, to read books well, is to pull this topic away.

Yuan Li.
[01:05:29]
He’s pretty cute, just a, actually a pretty typical programmer, isn’t he?

Ms. Bei.
[01:05:34]
Yes, just a very simple person. And then you think, his idol is Einstein, his favorite is the photo of Einstein with his tongue out, his hair in a mess, unpretentious. He is also like this. So I see that lawyer Ding (Ding Jiaxi) has one. They way they are treating him, they don’t let him take a bath, right? (Note: For more details, see the  podcast EP-043,[link to Chinese transcript of podcast run through Google Translate] ” Who is Xu Zhiyong and who is Ding Jiaxi”)

Yuan Li.
[01:05:55]
Yes, Ding Jiaxi, you’re talking about Ding Jiaxi.

Ms. Bei.
[01:05:58]
Yes, I know, it’s …… that Ruan Xiaohuan has nothing to worry about.

Yuan Li.
[01:06:03]
It’s just hard to get him to take a bath is it? But in Ding Jiaxi’s case didn’t let him take a bath for six months, so it’s still pretty hard, people can get hardened to such things.

Ms. Bei.
[01:06:14]
Ruan Xiaohuan said, I am very comfortable after the shower, oops, but why don’t I like to take showers?

Yuan Li.
[01:06:18]
He just wanted to go and sit there and think ……

Ms. Bei.
[01:06:19]
Waste of time.

Yuan Li.
[01:06:21]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s really ah, it’s really a quite loveable person, um.

Ms. Bei.
[01:06:26]
Yes, he’s a very simple and sweet person.

Yuan Li.
[01:06:29]
Okay, thanks. It’s when we ask each of our guests to recommend three books or movies, and I don’t know if you have any recommendations.

Ms. Bei.
[01:06:36]
I’m going to recommend a book and a movie.

The book is  Strategy by B.H. Liddell Hart which is that many times the shortest thing between two points is not a straight line, but a curve of least resistance. I would say that when you have a goal go and think about if there is an indirect, strategic route to reach your goal with the least resistance. This is the book, you will have a lot of experience and some new strategic ideas.

A movie,  I would still like to recommend the movie “ The Defenders “.

Yuan Li.
[01:07:12]
South Korea’s “The Defenders”.

Ms. Bei.
[01:07:14]
Yes, this movie will see an ordinary person, in fact, a very mercenary people. Yet when he sees people close to him suffer injustice, the sense of justice of this ordinary person gets aroused, he becomes a more powerful figure. This is what I thought after watching it recently. I think everyone watching this movie will have a different perspective and a different idea. But it’s a good movie that’s worth seeing. Well, good.

Yuan Li.
[01:07:45]
Um, okay, thanks. Thank you, Ms. Bei. Thank you for listening, and we’ll see you next time.

---

不明白播客

一起探寻真理与答案

2023-05-19播客文本

EP-048 谁是“编程随想”？（文字版）

时间轴：
2:40 贝女士讲述阮晓寰被捕的经历
7:43 贝女士是如何发现阮晓寰就是“编程随想”的
16:49 贝女士讲述与阮晓寰相识与结婚的经历
24:42 阮晓寰对于工作、金钱和是否养育子女的看法
30:56 贝女士在发现阮晓寰就是“编程随想”之后的想法
36:11 贝女士如何看待“编程随想”的文章
41:06 “编程随想”的一位粉丝发来的语音
44:19 为什么阮晓寰会选择写技术博客的方式来寻求改变中国
46:52 阮晓寰选择做独立开发者、然后开通“编程随想”博客的心路历程
49:12 阮晓寰坚持写匿名博客十几年会觉得孤独吗
51:38 阮晓寰被捕前家里的各种反常现象
54:12 贝女士认为“编程随想”是如何被攻破的
56:38 贝女士讲述阮晓寰案在侦查和审判中遭遇的不公
1:06:31 嘉宾推荐

文字版全文：
袁莉:
[00:00:03]
欢迎来到不明白播客，我是主持人袁莉。去年有位网友在向我解释翻墙安全问题的时候提到了“编程随想”。他写到：“谈到墙与翻墙不由令人想起‘编程随想’。‘编程随想’是中国互联网安全领域的传奇人物，是中共的肉中刺眼中钉，国安有针对他的专案组，可追踪多年却一无所获，换来的却是‘编程随想’时不时公开的嘲笑和挑战，事件的结尾也颇具神秘色彩，主人公毫无征兆地突然消失了，这让‘编程随想’究竟是谁成为了永远的谜。”

这位网友继续写到：“‘编程随想’努力将中国民众从愚昧、麻木、顺从中唤醒，教会人们如何汲取并甄辩真实信息，如何避免陷入信息茧房，如何进行独立思考，他所做的一切都与中共的信息管制、强行洗脑的愚民政策相对，对改变中国有着深远意义。目前他的故事在互联网安全领域早已是耳熟能详，可仍有很多普通民众对此却一无所知，所以，这个传奇人物和他的传奇故事值得传扬，知道的人越多，能启发的民智就越多。”

这位网友还推荐了编程随想的几篇博文。我印象特别深的一篇是《为啥朝廷总抓不到俺——十年反党活动的安全经验汇总》。这位网友说，希望我能找人来谈一谈编程随想。但有相关技术知识和人文知识又愿意上节目谈这样一位传奇人物的嘉宾太难找了，我只好把这个选题先放在一边。

直到今年3月，贝女士在推特上发布求助信息，表示她的丈夫就是编程随想。她说编程随想原名阮晓寰，于2021年5月10日被政府带走，今年2月被以“煽动颠覆国家政权罪”判处7年徒刑。

这周五5月19日，是原定阮晓寰二审判决的日期。贝女士跟我分享了阮晓寰在生活中是一个什么样的人，她为什么一直不知道丈夫在写这个博客，为什么她在丈夫被捕一年多、一审判决后才发现了他在网络上的身份，以及她对于编程随想这个身份和博客内容的看法。

贝女士您好，你能说一下2021年5月10日发生了什么吗？

贝女士:
[00:02:43]
那天5月10号中午的时候，我之前是叫了农夫山泉水的吗？然后门铃响了，我以为是农夫山泉水送来了，然后我叫我老公出去接水，他当时是在书房的嘛。他从书房出去接水。然后（我）就听到门口似乎有人说了不许动，然后一些轻微的打斗声之后，我赶快赶到门口的时候，看不到任何人了，走进来一个男的，便衣啊。
当时我是觉得是真的是有人上门打劫，或者发生什么不好的事情了，我就对着他，我质问他，我说你们要上门打劫吗？然后他盯着我的眼睛也看了一会儿，然后出示了一个公安证，说我们是警察。之后就进来十几个人嘛，开始搜查全屋。
当时我的脑子是就是懵的状态，我看了他的那个相关的证件，我知道他不可能骗我，而且进来十几个人，里面有便衣也有穿着警服的。而且他们进来之后，就把我的客厅里面放的所有电子设备都控制起来了，把我人也控制起来了。这样子我没有办法去拿我的手机看任何东西。当时是午饭时间嘛，我本来是做好这个午饭，做好菜放在桌子上，准备叫阮晓寰出来吃饭了，但是现在就等于是饭也没有吃，然后我也没有胃口吃了，所以就只能等着。

袁莉:
[00:04:05]
那他人已经不在了是吗？

贝女士:
[00:04:06]
对他已经不在了，就。

袁莉:
[00:04:08]
你出门的时候，人就已经。

贝女士:
[00:04:10]
看不到任何人了。对，然后就是他们一个个房间搜查，搜查时间最长的就是他朝北书房嘛。那我是被堵在外面的，他们后来在厕所这边就开始拦了一条线，所以我上厕所都要让他们把线撤一下，我进去上厕所这样。
他们就在里面一直在搜查，之后可能过了几个小时吧，然后我老公又被几个人押着进来。当时我就想，虽然我和他之间堵着很多人，就是他们有警察啊，有便衣，都堵在我们之间嘛，我知道我和他讲话或者怎么样是不可能的，但是我想他起码应该看我一眼吧，发生这么大的事啊，所以我就一直盯着他看，我从人的中间啊，这些人群的中间，我就一直在看着他，但是他就一眼都没有看过我。
然后好像他有一件什么事情要处理一样的，然后就被他们带到这个朝北间门口，然后他就指着那个朝北间他书桌的地方指了一下，然后说了些什么，我也听不清，接着又被人带走了。
这就是我最后一次见他嘛，就是到开庭前最后一次见他了。然后之后他们说，你要么休息一下，我就退到朝南的卧室去嘛。然后卧室里面有大概三四个人，就算是看着我吧。然后他们也会跟我去聊天嘛，跟我去询问一些东西吧，这样子。然后他们其中有一个人说啊，我们是同龄人啊，就是说你这个事情我是很理解的，但你老公，你知不知道他做了什么事啊？他在外面写这个博客，写海外博客，然后说第一步要怎么做、第二步要怎么做，要推翻我们的政权啊。
我当时有点懵的，傻掉了嘛。他还说了一些话，是我和我老公之间才知道的话嘛。比如说这个细节我已经忘记了，但是我就知道，他们肯定是有窃听技术了。然后我就说，我说，你想问什么，你就直接问我吧，不用搞得你什么都知道的样子，来让我说很多话。我会配合的，你要问什么，你直接问吧。然后他就盯着我的眼睛嘛，就好像是说，就他们侦查人员看一个这种犯罪分子是说谎还是怎么样，这么一个状态，就是这样子盯着我。
我是很坦然的，我觉得我觉得我没有犯任何法，我老公我也不相信他会做犯法的事情，所以我配合你们。既然你们都知道我们在卧室谈的一些事情了，对吗？那你们要问什么我肯定也是，我没有什么好隐瞒的，你们就问好了。然后之后他们给我的这个感觉，就是一直在问你老公的这些钱是哪里来的，然后为什么你的这个账户也有那么多钱呢？本来我们就是分开的嘛，还有就是我们都有各自存款。然后他还说，我们也知道你经常就是出国去出差啊，或者到国外去过的啊，什么什么的。然后我知道他们了解了我很多东西，他们还知道我在淘宝上购物的倾向性，都知道。
我当时就想，是不是真的是和我老公他的这个技术（有关），因为我老公是网络安全工程师嘛，他是骇客的，精神（上是）的。我只知道这些。我想了会不会是和网络上面一些什么事情相关。然后当时2021年是建党100周年庆，上海也是可能有一些什么言论管控的动作，那可能他是言论上面有一些敏感的啊。那我想可能这个风头上面啊，我就忍着吧，反正我也不知道这个情况到底怎么样，我手机也没有，没法查很多东西。我只能就是忍着，而且十几个人在房间里面，我也没法做什么事对吧。

袁莉:
[00:07:42]
就是你当时对阮晓寰做过什么一无所知，对吧？那你后来是怎么发现他可能就是编程随想，这个中间，你是过了多久才发现的呢？

贝女士:
[00:07:55]
有很长时间了。因为他们就是在5月10号问话的时候，我是不知道的，然后就是当时想法也是他很快会被放出来的，过了这个风口就会放出来了。但是没有想到就是36天以后竟然批捕了嘛。之后我们、我就一直在就是想通过这个法律允许的渠道去为他抗争，对于他煽动颠覆国家政权罪这个罪名的定性做一些抗争。但是我请的律师在侦查期都不能去看守所会见。
后来一直等到……就是他们还延期侦查了。当时给我的理由说是还没查到他海外的一些联系，要侦查，然后同时又说他第一天已经交代了什么这些博文都是他写的。我曾经质疑说，既然这个案子这么简单，为什么还要拖延侦查期嘛。但那就是给我的答复，就是好像他的海外联系还没有找出来，这个案子要再查。然后等到8月多才到了这个杨浦区检察院。那杨浦区检察院作为基层检察院，本来就不应该去管辖这个，或者说受理这种案子的，这是涉及国家安全的案子了，应该直接到中级人民检察院的。但是在杨（浦区）检（察院）就是耽搁了一个多月，然后再转到二中检（注：上海市人民检察院第二分院）去的。那在这个期间，我们都一直在到信访办，相关的信访办，去了解情况。没有人给我们任何信息。

袁莉:
[00:09:17]
你说的我们，是你和谁？

贝女士:
[00:09:19]
我和他的父母嘛。没有任何信息给到我们家属，然后律师也不能会见。一直等到杨浦区检察院一个多月以后，转到了二中检，中间又过了大概半个月了，律师去阅卷之后，才去看守所第一次会见完阮晓寰，那时候是9月29号。
那会见完，我是在看守所门口等着他（律师）的。我也想了解一下，到底（阮晓寰）他是说了什么事情啊，说了什么话在博客上面，然后被控了这么严重的罪名。律师还是说，他不能告诉我们，这个因为有保密协议之类的吧。他只是说了一些很基本的东西，比方说他可能……我一直在追问：他到底有多严重？他到底写了多少博文？那律师就告诉我，这个侦察其他了解到，应该是有700多篇。然后他们可能说他有百余篇，然后他自己承认的可能就十几篇的样子。我那个时候就知道这些信息，其他什么都不知道。
之后很长的时间是在法院耽搁的，这个也是我意料不到的。按照这个法律规定是三个月要审结的，但是一直在拖延，一直到22年的三月份。律师告诉我说，来了一封公函，说因为疫情这个审理中止了，一直就中止着。直到23年的二月份，突然律师跟我说2月10号要公开宣判、开庭了，家属可以去的。之前也没有说中止的审理恢复了，所以就是整个中止的将近1年，我也什么都不能做。

袁莉:
[00:10:52]
那你那个时候……我问你是说，你什么时候知道他是编程随想的，这个过程中你都不知道吗？

贝女士:
[00:10:58]
都不知道。这个过程中根本就没有任何信息，可以给到我。当时他母亲说，他到底说了什么？一直在想要从律师那边获得信息，没有任何信息告诉她。我们曾经想说，我们也自己去了解一下啊，就到海外的网站看看，找找他到底是什么身份，才能知道他到底说了什么话，有多么严重。但是因为我之前是不会翻墙上网的，我从来没有想过要学这个东西，然后也想他只是在海外有一个博客，这么多的海外博客的平台，我要怎么去找到？没有下手的地方。
然后之前侦查期的时候，办案人员也有跟我说：啊，你难道不知道他说了什么吗？你可以自己上他博客去看看。那我说，我怎么看？然后他说：哦，那等到以后这个案子就清楚的时候，肯定可以让你去看的。他博客还在的，你就知道了啊，他有两面性，有一面你是不知道的。那我想想他的这个身份，现在我不知道，但是迟早判决书下来，我肯定能够知道了，我能知道他到底什么情况了。
所以在一审判决出来之前，我真的是一点都没有想到，我要凭我自己的能力去找出他的身份。直到一审判决2月10号判了，拿到判决书，这样一份判决书里面，什么信息还是都没有的。连他最基本的涉及了“煽（动）颠（覆）”的这个言论证据都没有，没有任何可以去说。上面根本就没有写他博客名。所以我就觉得这有很大的问题嘛。而且一般来说，博客里面的言论，基本常识都知道是属于言论自由范围内的，对吧？那为什么说他这些言论是属于煽动颠覆国家政权了呢？
我当时拿到判决书之后，我就开始做一件事情。一个是找人权律师嘛，还有一个就是心里面这个疑问，想要自己去解决。但是最首要的问题还是找律师，所以我是动员了很多朋友帮忙。那包括我在微信里面也跟朋友说，我拿到判决书才发现我可能陷入思维误区了，思维定势了，判决书里面连原来的证据都没有，可能他就是无罪的，应该无罪释放的。我在微信里有说过这样一句话，我也在微信里面就是说了，我会请那个北京莫少平律师事务所的律师。
之后，我是2月19号想动身去北京签律师协议的嘛。然后被那个上海的国保就是拦住了，找我谈话。2月19号的时候，他们谈话里面也说了，意思说你是不是觉得他是被冤枉的，因为没有证据？我就很惊讶，他为什么知道我的想法。那我一下子就知道了，肯定是从我的微信记录里面，他们知道了，对嘛。我在微信里面说过这样类似的话。那然后他们也知道，说：你是不是要去请莫少平律师？这些全都是他们不应该知道的，而他们知道了，全部都是。我一推论、一推测就知道，是从微信监控里面获得的信息嘛。
那然后我就想听他们怎么说。对于我说的这个无罪的释放啊，我是陷入思维定势的这个情况，他们说：哎，你是不是觉得这个判决是没有证据的？然后说：你知不知道这个是因为信息不对称。他就说了这样一句话。那他这样说的话，我更觉得我有必要一定要去找出他到底是什么博主身份，他这句话更加印证了我的这个想法。所以之后我就开始就是学习怎么样翻墙嘛。当时这个翻墙已经叫做科学上网了嘛，翻墙这个词都被很敏感了。

袁莉:
[00:14:29]
就是今年二月份的时候，你才开始学习翻墙的。

贝女士:
[00:14:32]
其实是今年三月份才开始的，因为2月10号宣判嘛，我2月19号去北京，去上火车之前被那个国保拦着谈话嘛。所以是三月份开始学这个科学上网，然后再花时间挖掘出了他编程随想的身份。

袁莉:
[00:14:49]
你能不能说一下，你是怎么（找到的）？

贝女士:
[00:14:51]
这个巧是很巧的。当时我没有想到这么容易就能发掘出来，我只是在这个google里面输入了“失联”“博主”还有那个年份“2021”，就跳出了亚洲周刊的一篇报道。就是一篇报道，上面就是这个时间，然后编程随想停止更新。

袁莉:
[00:15:06]
停止更新博客。

贝女士:
[00:15:08]
对对对。我觉得，而且我老公他其实是很直的。他选的这种，写的这个博主的名字，不会有什么很好玩儿的名字。叫编程随想这种名字，就肯定是他的风格嘛。就很熟悉的这种感觉，我觉得我就有一种直觉，好像是他。
然后我就进去看这个博主写的博客嘛。包括他有一个习惯，他的思路非常清楚的，而且他有这个记录的习惯，所以他每年都做一个博文回顾的嘛，很容易就是可以看到一个目录一样的东西。那我看了一下，发现他的这个很多的特征，和我老公完全就是吻合的。所以从很多细节我就一下子就知道，我老公就在用编程随想这个博主名一直在写文章，写了12年。
当时我还有一个冒出来的想法，就是他2017年年底的时候，曾经因为哮喘病急性发作，急救的时候输入了这个激素类的药物，是后来引发全身皮肤的红皮病嘛，就很严重了。他是卧床的。我就在想那段时间，他怎么更新博客，博客是什么状态，我要去看一下。然后我看了之后，果然从那个2017年的十一月底开始吧，到2018年年初的几个月，他的博客每篇都是写他最近很忙，所以更新的比较晚了什么什么的。这样一下子，我就毫无质疑地确认他的身份了。所以当时我在网吧，我根本就忍不住，我就哭出来了，哭出声音。所以这是我整个确认他身份的一个过程吧，是这样子才确认的。

袁莉:
[00:16:48]
你能说一下，你们是怎么认识的，就是什么时候结婚的？你不知道他是编程随想，就是他在生活中是一个什么样的人，你记忆中关于你们俩最美好的事情是什么？你能不能稍微说一下。

贝女士:
[00:17:01]
我和他是1996年认识的嘛。那时候是华东理工大学这个入学的时候，我们整个班级的同学坐在广场的草坪上面做自我介绍嘛。当时我说的话也挺幽默的，我说我产地上海嘛。之后他跟我说，也是因为我的这句话对我印象特别深刻。

袁莉:
[00:17:24]
你们俩是同班同学，是吗？

贝女士:
[00:17:26]
对的啊，是同班同学，都是化学工程系化工工艺专业的。他给我的印象就是一个比较开朗的，一个憨憨的，一个书呆子一样的人吧。在大学里的时候，其实大一我对他也没有什么特别的印象。只是知道他在同学里面很有名，因为他的计算机能力很强，他是全班计算机最好的。然后他还……这个人还很奇怪的啊，他经常牺牲自己的时间就是给同学去答疑。他每周花一两天，就是一段时间，全班同学可以去找他答疑，他就在某个教室里面等着他们。我就知道这个人是这样子的，其他是没什么印象。但有一次就是Ubisoft（育碧）在我们学校开一个讲座嘛。然后我去听了，我是没事儿闲着无聊去听的，他也在。然后他的座位旁边有一个空位嘛，所以我就坐过去了。就这个时候我们就可能比较有些接触了。
之后我自修的时候就会经常偶遇他，就他也会跑到那个教室去的。后来我才知道他是经常会在每个教学楼下面找我的自行车嘛，根据这个来定位我在这个教学楼，然后再一个一个教室地找我。

袁莉:
[00:18:43]
就是说制造偶遇了。

贝女士:
[00:18:46]
然后后来就是，我其实大学里面不爱读书的，因为我不喜欢化工，其实那时候。那他呢？是一个就是很喜欢计算机的人。他在大学里面，人家经常说他就是三点一线的这样子：寝室，然后图书馆，然后教室。但我说再加上一个食堂吧，因为吃饭总要吃的。所以他就这样，就这几个线这样走来走去。因为他很多时间是在图书馆自己学习这个和计算机相关的这个知识。有的时候他不去上专业课，因为寝室里面他们合资买了一个电脑嘛，是有轮班的，就是哪个人是哪个时间段上机。那他就放弃专业课的时间，因为那时候寝室里面就没有人了，他就可以无限制的上机了，就这样一个人。
那后来我们就是相当于是谈恋爱的时候嘛，他就经常会晚上啊，我们自修，我累了，我们就出去到操场上面，一边散步，一边聊天。所以就是在那个时候，我就知道他这个读书的阅读量非常大，让我很吃惊的。而且他对人名的记忆，那些外国人啊，外国人名的记忆力非常强，过目不忘的。我就很惊讶于他的惊人记忆力，还有他知识面的丰富，什么都知道。所以可能是那个时候，我对他印象非常好。
之后我们是，我2000年毕业了嘛，然后他是在毕业前就在校产，一个软件公司做事情的。之后，2000年我毕业的时候，因为他专业课没过，还有这个英语四级没过嘛，所以他就选择了就是不要这个毕业证书了，他要和我一起就是去加入社会了这样子的。之后，我们是2004年结婚的。

袁莉:
[00:20:35]
你当时也没有反对嘛，就是在中国，在当时，因为你们就比我小几岁，我还记得在90年代的时候，有个大学毕业证还是很重要的。

贝女士:
[00:20:43]
嗯，第一，我觉得他的能力非常强，我觉得以他的智慧，他决定的事我根本不需要去质疑的。所以我从来没有想过要去质疑，他说有没有毕业证这个事情。没有想过。但他父母确实是觉得这个事情很不好，特别是他爸爸。他爸爸是大学教授嘛，对于他自己的儿子啊，他从小就是教育很好的，然后又是重点的中学，一路上来到一个重点大学，然后在最后就放弃大学毕业证，他爸爸是不太能接受这件事情的。

袁莉:
[00:21:17]
嗯，你有没有记忆中你们俩最美好的事情是什么呢？

贝女士:
[00:21:22]
嗯，其实我们俩之间有很多开心的时间，但近期一个就是记忆美好的时间，可能就是我们2014年一起去那个菲律宾巴拉望旅行那段时间。就是网上能看到他那个照片嘛，就是穿着格子衬衫，背着一个红背带的包包，很阳光，很灿烂的，笑得很开心的那个样子，那就是我们在那个菲律宾旅行的时候拍的。

袁莉:
[00:21:49]
他生活中是一个阳光灿烂，开朗的人吗？

贝女士:
[00:21:53]
是的。他大学里面，他最经典的就是他爽朗的笑声啊，就哈哈哈那种。人家都说整个教室，或者说一层教学楼都能听到阮晓寰在笑了，就是这样子的。

袁莉:
[00:22:07]
那你们俩的婚姻也是挺有意思的，就是你们的钱是分开的，而且他自己多数时间是把自己关在书房里，而你是基本上不进他书房的，对不对？为什么会是这样呢？

贝女士:
[00:22:19]
是的，我们俩婚姻确实是别人看来很很奇葩的。这个AA制嘛，我觉得是每个人独立经济能力、独立个体的一个体现，我觉得是很正常的。特别是因为我们俩的消费观不一样。他是那种，他会为了有用的东西去花钱，而且是非常明智的做购买决定和选择的人。而我的消费观念就可能比较随心所欲吧。这个消费观念的不同，我觉得他提出说很多东西不给我买，我觉得很能理解，反正我自己也有钱，我就自己买呗，所以AA制比较好啊。
而且之前，就是结婚之前嘛，他也有送过我一些礼物嘛，但结婚之后，他就不送我礼物了。那常规的家庭就是这种逢年过节啊，或者什么的，总要有些这个礼物表示一下吧？我一开始是很不能接受的啊，也跟他有抱怨过。我说你怎么以前还知道送玫瑰花啊，对吧，虽然只送一支。我问你为什么只送一支？你就说一心一意。这个也就算了，对吧，那你什么结婚后连一心一意的一支玫瑰都不送呢？
他回答也很经典的。他说你的那个消费观，你已经那么随心所欲了，我再送你怎么行，他说我要培养你的心态。（袁莉：太过分了。哈哈。）当时我是觉得：算了吧。但是后来，特别是这段时间，就是人生经历不一样了，很多东西有过经历以后，我就能够理解他当时为什么说这样的话了。很多就说你人生，如果你没有一个自己很明确地知道自己要什么的时候，确实会迷失在一些你眼前的虚妄的这种欲望里面，你就会随心所欲的去购物。但当你有一个很明确的人生目标的时候，你就知道了这个钱其实是一种消耗品。就是说钱本身是消耗品啊，因为你为了要满足你一些虚妄的欲望，你要花钱嘛，那你就会陷入一个不断的循环，你为了赚更多的钱，你就把时间都浪费掉了，然后满足去追求一些虚妄的欲望。确实说得对，就心态很重要，只有你从这个里面解脱出来，你才能真正发现你人生真正有意义的东西，把你的时间集中在那里。

袁莉:
[00:24:41]
那我再问一下，就是他是从二〇一几年就开始不工作了，对不对？这个你们俩之间也没有，因此有什么矛盾吗？

贝女士:
[00:24:50]
嗯，他应该是从2011年或者2012年左右（不工作的），因为他没有告诉我具体时间，后来我自己猜的就这段时间他就不工作了。
我们两个其实在这方面倒是一致的。就是我也不是说一定要工作，因为工作只是赚钱的一个渠道嘛，对嘛：你可以打工，你可以自己去做老板，你或者有其他地方获得这个足够你生活需要的资金的来源都可以。而他当时的观点就是，他已经有足够的资金在那边，在他死之前，他觉得以他这么低的对这个就是物质生活的要求，足够了。他甚至还跟我说，我们要那么多的钱干嘛？以后我们死的时候捐出去，虽然不多也去捐出去。当时我是很惊讶的，但是后来特别是我读了这个《世界尽头的咖啡馆》啊，或者一系列的这种书以后，我就非常能够理解他的这种想法了。所以我对于他那个不工作一点都没有什么问题的。包括我自己也是，就说我其实现在17年外企工作经验啊，换了七八个公司啊，就是当中也有没有工作的时间的，没有工作的时间很自由，就是一种调整，一种就是追求自己的一个方式吧，我觉得没有任何问题。

袁莉:
[00:26:10]
那你们俩真的是绝配。那你们俩之间谈论政治吗？如果你们不谈政治的话，谈什么呢？

贝女士:
[00:26:17]
政治是作为一个时事的话题的话，他会偶尔会涉及到，就是纯粹是从某个时事才会谈这个，有这个事情发生了，但不会说……

袁莉:
[00:26:29]
比如说？

贝女士:
[00:26:30]
呃，比如说他会特别强调这个中药的问题，他非常反对中药。然后还有就是比方说，这种肿瘤治疗方案的事情，他都有说过这些事。还有，以前那个奶粉的添加剂的问题。

袁莉:
[00:26:46]
毒奶粉的。

贝女士:
[00:26:47]
对。他都有说。然后包括我们不要孩子的嘛，其实是他不要孩子。然后我也说过：为什么？当时我还没有那么超脱，说不要孩子。他就说这个社会问题嘛，教育问题啊，医疗问题啊，很多问题，食品安全问题。有这些问题在，他觉得，为什么要生孩子，对吧？所以很多情况。

袁莉:
[00:27:12]
他觉得是有这么多问题，把孩子带到这样的一个社会是是不太好的吗，还是因为什么呢？还是不安全的？

贝女士:
[00:27:19]
呃，他觉得不适合，不适合，非常不适合啊。然后你刚才那个问题，主问题，我已经忘了，因为我有点话多。

袁莉:
[00:27:29]
没有没有。我就是说，你们谈政治或者谈时事吗？实际上根本不谈政治对不对？不谈的时候谈什么呢？

贝女士:
[00:27:37]
对，谈什么对吧？其实就像你前面也有一个问题，我已经忽略掉，就是他一直关在书房，然后我也不进去打扰他的，我们怎么维持我们之间的婚姻关系，或者说我们俩的亲密关系是怎么维持的嘛？
其实之前，我觉得两个人只要在一个房间里面就是一种关系的维护，这是我一个女人的这种感觉，但是他可能不是这个想法，他觉得两个人在一起，是要soulmate，需要是灵魂伴侣，必须要有共同话题。所以，他一直就是想再找一些和我的共同兴趣点的。包括结婚以后呢，他就鼓励我要去学围棋。他说围棋是可以锻炼你的思维方式的，全局化，还有很多战略性的思考的，这是一个很好的东西，让我去学。然后后来就因为……我曾经有学了，但是后来兴趣点不大嘛，后来就放弃了。
那后来他又想出一个方法，说我们要不去那个，就旁边，我们家附近都有很好的有利环境，我们有体院嘛，然后有就是网球场啊，有乒乓球馆啊，什么都可以，还有那个保龄球馆。所以我们有段时间也经常去那边玩这种东西，后来又没坚持下来。
那后来他说要不这样吧，你打这个，星际争霸去吧，我们玩儿这个也有共同话题。他其实说，后来说他自己是不想打游戏的，只是为了想跟我一起找共同话题，然后才去花了时间玩这个。然后还有，反正尝试过很多。最后也介绍我看科幻小说啊，什么《安德的游戏》啊，就他曾经尝试过很多，还有包括给我书单啊，都都去想让我和他有更多的话题嘛，都有做尝试。

袁莉:
[00:29:25]
就是说她还是很注意的，就是说你们俩之间要有一个共同的话题，或者共同的爱好是吧。

贝女士:
[00:29:30]
他非常注意这个，包括后来他那段时间生大病啊，因为我一开始是在照顾他的。他说如果我不在家里，他会很害怕嘛。那我拒绝了或者推辞了很多的重要的出差，但是有一次出差没法推，我推了好几次了，所以我必须要出差一周。然后我就叫他母亲过来照顾他了嘛。之后我觉得他母亲在了，我就可以，对吧，再回到工作上面来。所以后面大概好几个月我都是不在，然后过来看他，给他带药这样子。
我估计是这段时间，可能他觉得我们再这样下去不好，会越走越远嘛。所以就从那以后，我觉得他对我的态度好像有些不一样了，而且对我投入在工作里面的时间非常的厌恶，然后有的时候为了我工作投入的时间，而影响到我们一些日程安排的时候，他就会大发脾气，所以这也就是导致我后来2020年5月疫情的时候，我就离职的原因吧，一个重要原因。

袁莉:
[00:30:33]
你就在家待着了，你就和他一起，是吧。

贝女士:
[00:30:37]
对对对，我们一起。就是我就花很多时间去看他以前给我的书单里面没有看的书嘛，然后还有可以一起散步，一起去骑车，做很多自己以前想做、他也想做，然后却没有时间做的事情。那时候我们就是，关系越来越好了嘛。

袁莉:
[00:30:55]
那你再发现他就是编程随想后，你看他的博客时是什么样子感觉呢？你有没有怪他一直瞒着你呢？

贝女士:
[00:31:04]
是啊，你说的很对，我当时是很矛盾的。我知道他是编程随想以后是很担心很害怕的，因为网络上面都以什么，很多……“普罗米修斯”是还好的一种称谓了啊，什么“阿桑奇”啊，“斯诺登”啊，我一边看我一边很害怕的。
看他博客的时候，我就是一个感觉嘛，我要看他到底写了什么，到底有多严重。我要辩护的时候，我要为他找出一些辩护立足点的嘛。因为从2021年他被抓以后，我自己花了很多时间去学刑法，学辩护技巧。我是有一些相关的法律知识的。
那看他的博客的时候，我先看他的总结嘛，就是每年的总结。2021年那篇最后的总结，我看他到底写了些什么。看目录，然后再对几个高敏感的博文去浏览一下，看严重到什么程度，敏感度是有多少。然后对我自己感兴趣的一些博文也看了一下。我记得我印象最深的一篇就是，《为啥俺要写这个博客——动机的自我分析》，看了那篇博客以后，我对他的这个认识啊，就觉得一下子……哎，这就是我大学认识的阮晓寰。

袁莉:
[00:32:19]
你觉得他，他是为什么写这个博客？

贝女士:
[00:32:22]
他其实就是一个很纯粹的人，其实有点天真单纯的人。他认准的一件事情，他就很投入地去做。他也是一个很专一的人嘛，他其实一直就是很爱科学的一个人。包括他从小的偶像是爱因斯坦，然后到他从事IT行业以后，我觉得他的偶像应该是Stallman，Richard Stallman，那个GNU（项目）的创始人嘛。
他崇尚自由和开源精神，他会投入很多事情。比方说他辞职以后就做开源软件，我本来就知道，隐约感觉到他会去写技术博客。因为他曾经跟我说过，他周围的人水平有点太差，找不到一个就是可以聊技术、深入去聊的人。那我想就是他去这个博客上面发文章，可能会有一些技术牛人可以做交流嘛。
所以我知道他肯定会在写技术的博客，但我是一开始没有想到，他会去涉及政治的，真的是没有想到。看了他的博文之后，我知道他为什么会这样了。因为他还是在坚持他自由的精神，网络自由的精神，他可能是看不惯用网络技术去做自由封杀的这个事情。
他最喜欢的两部电影，一部是《V字仇杀队》，还有一部就是《骇客帝国》（注：常见译名《黑客帝国》）。呃，我想说的是，他就像那个（《黑客帝国》里的）Neo，是自己选择了吞下红色的药丸，去面对这个真实残酷的世界，然后去做那种持续的、但是其实希望渺茫的这种奋斗吧，为了他自己的一些目标。所以我非常理解，我觉得他就是会这样做的，就是会坚持写这样一个博客，为了他自己想实现的一个事情，实现他自己的一些价值吧。

袁莉:
[00:34:14]
我特别喜欢他自己在有一篇文章前面，他有这个引述英国的哲学家、数学家罗素的一句话说，我为什么而活着——当然这个是很有名的——他说，“是对爱情的渴望、对知识的追求，对人类苦难不可遏制的同情心，这三种纯洁而无比强烈的激情支配着我的一生。”

贝女士:
[00:34:37]
是啊，他就是这样。他很理想化，很单纯。他所有的价值观，他的行为都是统一的，因为他很……他想明白了这件事情，他就相信它，所以他没有一个……就像很多普通人啊，是有点混乱的。就像我之前也是混乱的，就我的价值观不是那么统一，所以做事情会一会儿做这样子的价值观的事，一会儿做那样价值观的事。但是他是非常统一的。

袁莉:
[00:35:04]
一个身体力行的事吧，就是这种言行合一的事吧。我们说的。

贝女士:
[00:35:09]
对对对。他就是这样子很统一的一个人。而且，我记得有一次我们一起看一部很有意思的动画片，是叫《寻梦环游记》嘛。那里面就是说，到亡灵世界里面去。那亡灵世界的人如何能够再回到这个人的世界，也就是说不被人们遗忘嘛，是要人的世界里面有人记得Ta，祭奠Ta的那个照片，Ta就可以再回来，就是没有死亡。永久死亡就是这个世界里面没有人再记得Ta了。当时阮晓寰就跟我说过，说，其实你哪怕有孩子，你的儿子可能会记得你，但是你儿子的儿子还能不能记得你，就不一定了。但是如果要有一个事情留在这个世界上，让很多的人记得你，你才是真正的一直活着。

袁莉:
[00:36:03]
啊，真的是……

贝女士:
[00:36:05]
对。

袁莉:
[00:36:06]
他说的，挺好的，我都不知道说什么了。但是你看他的文章，那些文章的时候，会不会有一种胆战心惊的感觉呢？就是我看了……就比如说他最著名的一篇文章，题目叫《为啥朝廷总抓不到俺——十年反党活动的安全经验汇总》，他在文章里面有这样一些语句，比如说：“本人已经抹黑党国很多年了”，还有就比如说，“早在2011年的中国茉莉花革命期间，俺就连发多篇具有煽颠性质的博文，然后括号注，“那三篇显然能评上煽动颠覆国家政权的大罪”，我不知道你看了他这些句子，是一个什么样的感觉呢？

贝女士:
[00:36:52]
我第一次看到一篇网上的文章这样评价他的时候，我人是流汗的。因为我自己知道宪法里面、中国的宪法里面第三十五条是保障人权保障言论自由的。我也看了他博文的主要的这个框架，所有的文章的目录，还有他写博文的这个基调，他都是基于事实在做全面客观的分析的。所以从他这个一贯的宗旨，我是觉得他没有任何煽动颠覆国家政权这个罪可以够上的。但是就是有这个他自己的博文里面写了这些话，我当时是一头汗的。就是说，我知道他这个人就是很恃才傲物，有的时候说话很直，但是在中国的言论环境里面，这样直的说话真的是风险很大的。
所以我当时是，是很心惊胆战的。特别像我们这代人，我们父母是经历过文化大革命的对吧，他们就平时……我在家里说一些批评的话，批评这个一些社会现状的话，我爸爸都会马上制止我啊，你不要在外面这样说啊，什么的。
但是因为我工作一直都是在外企嘛。那外企我们的文化是很自由的，而且是崇尚个人要表达自己的观点的。我们鼓励多样性。最近特别是很多外企都因为要适应新的经济环境都提倡要变革。人类社会不管哪个组织都是在不断变革中才能够推进进步的嘛。所以包括我自己以前也做过组织的领导嘛，我也是最担心的就是下属不说话，一定要他们说话。我们很多采集观点的一个方法就是brainstorming嘛，要有人说话，你才能了解下属是怎么想的。很多事情的推进或者很多这种好的观点就是来自于brianstorming，要推进，也必须通过brainstroming才能够有一个推进落实的。所以我自己不觉得说言论自由会有这么大的风险，这是我一直的，就是这样子的一种态度。
所以我就是一直想着如何去为我老公这个案子，让更多的人知道，让更多人可以声援他。那我看他有这么敏感的这些话语写在他自己的博文里面，我是捏把汗的，然后我就仔细看了这个，我定了一下神嘛，然后再去看这个，到底怎么来说这个事情，对吧？
首先，他说“抹黑”。网络上面，我们就知道都是诙谐的，或者反讽的，或者是调侃的这种手法来创作的。“抹黑”在网络用语里面，也就是实质上的“批评”嘛。那批评和自我批评本来就是一个很好的，甚至是中国共产党提倡的一个东西，对不对。所以这个抹黑这个词看上去是很很敏感的，但其实本质我没觉得是有什么问题。
那说到一个问题比较吓人，就是革命啊，茉莉花革命。哎呀，这个真的好像又要被扣上一个很大的帽子的。但是你再看他的时间，我从法律角度讲，2011年——我特地看了一下——2011年2月24号开始到3月5号，他写了四篇博文。然后是从茉莉花行动的第二次行动开始，他去发布了一些相关信息的。那茉莉花革命的口号也是要食物、要工作、要住房、要公证对吧，然后还包括一些司法独立、新闻自由和政改的民主自由的相关诉求。我觉得这个是一种围观改变中国的这个茉莉花行动，它的名字是叫……我就觉得就被网络上面这么说，“茉莉花革命”，单单只是个名字，你要看它实际是什么。
我并没有觉得这样一个行动本身构成了颠覆国家政权，然后他在他的博文里面有相关信息发布，也不能把他扣上煽动颠覆国家政权这个罪了。所以从法律角度，我就觉得放心一点了，并且他那个时间点早就过了刑事的追诉期了，所以我就不怕了。我一开始真的有点担心了。后来我觉得这个过虑了。

袁莉:
[00:41:04]
下面呢，有几个问题是编程随想，阮晓寰的一位粉丝发给我的。这位粉丝呢，在去年就在推特上给我发私信，让我关注编程随想失踪的事情。但是当时我们没有任何线索，也不知道到哪里去找这个人。那下面呢，我们先来听一段Ta发过来的关于编程随想对Ta的影响的录音。Ta非常小心，Ta说Ta被采集过语音，所以呢，这段话是Ta用AI语音录制后发给我的，我试着放一下。

“编程随想”粉丝的录音:
[00:41:37]
大家好。作为不明白播客的老听众，很荣幸能参加这期节目。我姓李，从事IT相关技术工作。咱们直切主题吧。有人说编程随想是了不起的民主斗士，是黑暗中的莹莹烛光；也有人说他不过是个恨国党，西方敌对势力的又一条走狗罢了。
作为一个看过不少编程随想博客的普通读者，谈谈我个人的感受。编程随想的博文内容涉猎甚广，包括信息技术、历史、政治、心理学、管理学等多学科多领域，文章包罗万象，但给我的感觉，他所说和所做的都围绕着一个主线，那就是告诉人们如何获得信息，如何甄别信息，如何独立思考，如何学习拓展，如何突破自己的信息茧房。
他分享翻墙技术是想帮助人们从互联网上获得更多的信息来源。他在很多文章中不断地告诫读者一定要质疑他，时刻提醒着大家独立思考的重要性。他有时又像一个耄耋老人，跟年轻人唠叨着，要注意学习拓展自己，并且要注意突破人性的弱点，不能只看喜欢的知识或意见，避免将自己困在信息茧房中。编程随想所做的，难道不正是学堂所教的吗？应对那些网络上的假新闻，那些不断升级的杀猪盘骗局，那些没完没了的阴谋论，不正好可以应用到编程随想所教的吗？从TikTok和Twitter的狭隘和沉迷中抽身，不正是突破信息茧房吗？所以对我个人而言，编程随想的博客是大有裨益的。
至于那些引起争议的话题，只是他个人的自由表达，你可以认同也可以反对，这是每个人的自由，也是他一直希望大家所能做到的独立思考。
最后回答袁莉问我的两个问题。第一，你为什么持续关注编程随想？回答是：我欣赏他的知识渊博，敬重他的社会使命。他的命运其实映射着每个中国人的命运，他若安好便是晴天。第二个问题，你为什么采用AI语音参与节目？回答是在现下中国的语境中，敏感的地方太多，已经多到你不知道哪里就有一根红线。即使原来可以的，某天就突然不可以了。再加上监管技术的不断垒高，面部识别、声纹识别、步态识别等等，意味着你如果说错的话，可能就会面临恶劣的后果，而你却无处藏身。

袁莉:
[00:44:18]
接下来呢，因为我自己对编程随想的那个……我不像这个他的这个粉丝，就是可能700多篇大部分都读过，我也是最近才开始看了一些。那我也问问Ta，让Ta给我提一些问题。Ta就说编程随想是一个蛮传奇的人物。他的第一个问题是：推动中国进步的人士很多，像刘晓波、陈光诚、许志永、丁家喜都有明确的政治理想和诉求，并付诸行动。但是呢，阮晓寰却选择了不同的道路。他更关注的是教导民众独立思考。许志永们更像冲塔的勇士等待那最后一根稻草的出现；而阮晓寰呢，却试图影响这个民族的根本追求，令他们智慧起来而不是勇敢起来。他这样的行为对于中国显然有着深远意义。
Ta的问题就是说：（阮晓寰）他为什么会选择这样的做法呢？我不知道你有没有什么想法。

贝女士:
[00:45:15]
嗯，就其实刚才也有说到嘛，他是一个高度统一的人，他觉得正确的事情，他就会投入时间去做。而且他觉得人生价值是要留给这个社会一些有用的东西，这是他永不死亡的一个方式。他也提过，他想以后这种AI可能会全面的就是替代人类的，那他什么样子可以让自己就是永存？一个就是把自己的精神传到网络上面去。他有说过这样的类似的方法嘛。
所以我想他做这个博客，也就是把自己的一些思想去分享给别人，包括他以前大学里面这么喜欢跟人家答疑一样。他从小就是这样的，他从小就会在邻居这个社区里面开课一样的，很多小朋友喜欢去听他讲话，他就去分享他的这种科普知识。他就是这样一个人，所以他会去写他这个博客，分享很多技术上面的东西，然后去启发大众做这个独立思考、批判性思维。当然，他也看到社会上面一些不好的现象，他也会深入地去思考根源是什么。他是想去做改善的，包括他判决书里面也写到，他开庭时当庭说的，他是承认他写了这些博客，但是他的出发点是为了要使国家变得更好。就是这样一个很单纯的想法，他就坚持下来，长期的，就无偿的，没有任何这个名利追求的，去投入做了这件事情就是这样子的。

袁莉:
[00:46:51]
这位粉丝第二个问题，说这个阮晓寰曾经是2008年奥运会的信息安全系统总工程师。按理呢，他算是党国系统内的人，但是呢，他没有趋炎附势，却选择了一条更为艰难的道路。就是说，他的心路历程是怎么样的？我不知道你有没有一些想法。

贝女士:
[00:47:13]
其实这是一个误解。他2008年接这个项目，是因为他当时是在启明星辰的，是启明星辰的研发（带）头（人）嘛，所以他是做了这个项目的总架构师、总工程师这样。其实他本人根本不是这个体制内的，你要知道，当时因为他是没有大学文凭的，所以连那个四金，就是这种社保都是没有的。他也不在乎说这个工资是多高，他从来不在乎这些。所以其实像现在我，我是在外企工作，反而我有全面的社保。我退休也是可以享受很多的就是保障机制，但他没有的。然后我们结婚以后，我父母一直催，说把他落户在上海嘛，因为上海的待遇相对好一点。但他也不在乎，他从来不在乎这些，他都不要上海户口，就是这样一个人，你说他……

袁莉:
[00:48:05]
他真是一个超凡脱俗的人。

贝女士:
[00:48:07]
就是啊。我，我有的时候想想都要眼泪，我就会忍不住。就是他这样一个人，就是在做这些默默无闻，做这样的事情，然后现在他经受的是这样子的苦难。2月10号开庭的时候，他出来的时候，真的是瘦的……我从来没看到过他可以瘦成这样，而且头发全白了，基本就全白了。而他才46岁不到啊，就这一年九个月的时间，他就这样……他的压力多大？在里面完全隔绝。在之前，因为我不知道他到底做了什么，我心里其实是有点责怪他隐瞒我做这个高风险的事情的。但是当2月10号开庭的时候，我看见他这个样子，我没有任何其他想法了。什么事情他做了，要受这样子的罪，也已经全都偿还了。我要把他马上要救出来啊。为什么要这样对待他嘛，对不对？所以2月10号以后，我就是一个想法，我就是一定要把他尽快救出来，就是这样。

袁莉:
[00:49:13]
还有一个问题提出来，就说阮晓寰独自坚持了十几年，向外界保密了十几年，也对家人保密了十几年。这种孤独是常人无法想象的。他的生活中，难道没有一点蛛丝马迹吗？就是他怎么能够忍受这样的孤独。

贝女士:
[00:49:33]
其实我觉得他并不孤独。一个看这么多的书，不断地通过写博客来提高自己的人，他有追求。他有书相伴，有这么多的粉丝相伴，我相信他绝对不孤独。在写博客之前，他可能是寂寞的。因为他曾经有说过一种，就是英雄寥寥的感觉，就是他很多的技术，没有一个水平相当的人可以和他谈嘛，他可能寂寞。但是写博客之后，我不相信他会是孤独的，虽然他是一个人关在房间里面啊，他一直都是嗒嗒嗒嗒嗒的声音，敲键盘的声音。我不相信，他会有空去寂寞、去孤独，所以他不孤独。
但是他那个，确实生活中是我大意了，只是或者说我太相信他。其实之前有很多比较反常的一些言语嘛，我就直接忽略了。比方说，几年前吧，就是就当时刘晓波出事情的时候，他曾经跟我提过嘛。他也说过刘晓波的夫人，为他奔走去请律师的事，当时他就……

袁莉:
[00:50:36]
刘晓波去世的时候。

贝女士:
[00:50:39]
我不知道是去世，还是……

袁莉:
[00:50:40]
是17年去世的。嗯，他08年被抓的，08年被抓。

贝女士:
[00:50:45]
08年的。那应该是08年到17年之间，他有提过这个刘晓波的案子，他就说刘晓波的妻子为刘奔走嘛。

袁莉:
[00:50:54]
刘霞。

贝女士:
[00:50:55]
那他说：要是某一天一帮国安冲到我们家里来，把我抓走了，你会不会害怕啊，你会不会也去奔走，为我请律师啊？就是睁大他的眼睛看着我，我也睁大眼睛看着他。我想，你怎么会问我这些问题，我一句话都没有说。我说你别开玩笑啊，这种玩笑不能开的。然后他就不说了，这是一个。
然后还有就是近几年的反常嘛，他经常就是如果我把在书房的他叫出来，他会非常烦躁。然后2020年以后，我们出去散步的时候，他也有的时候会杀个回马枪看嘛，还有种种迹象吧，就是……

袁莉:
[00:51:39]
其实在这个外界的环境越来越压迫的这种的情况下，其实他自己心里面，有点觉得他可能就会被发现了，或者怎么怎么样吗？

贝女士:
[00:51:49]
对，非常清楚，现在回想起来，他其实早就知道他马上就会被发现，而且会有一些不公正的待遇。他很清楚的。甚至他，因为他是瞒着我的嘛，他用一种开玩笑的方式，会来试探我的。比方说，他被捕前几个月，他经常跟我开玩笑说，马上会有人用直升飞机来接他走了，AI会用直升机来接他走的。然后我就说我也是跟他开玩笑嘛，我说，那带不带我走嘛？然后他就不说话。所以他其实是知道的。

袁莉:
[00:52:31]
我问你一个问题，就说他在房间里面敲敲打打的，就是敲字了干什么的，写文章。你没有问过他，你都写什么，你不拿来给我看一眼吗？

贝女士:
[00:52:39]
我一直以为他是在编程。因为我有一次叫他出来吃饭的时候……我经常叫他的时候，他会发脾气，怎么他说，我在编程，思路不能被打断的啊，要衔接起来，这个我们这么复杂的程序，你要知道很难再恢复的啊！我也是理解编程是会是这个样子的，所以我也不太敢打扰他的。
但是我最近几个月，因为就是他被抓前几个月，我也发现他特别反常，包括我们家附近的这种一些反常的迹象，也让我觉得有一些不正常，或者有一些潜在的危险。（袁莉：比如说什么？）比方说我们21年初的时候，楼上一直有滴水声嘛，那然后我就叫他跟我一起去楼上敲门，让楼上配合我们物业检查嘛，但是楼上就是不开门，死不开门的。然后我老公就是曾经打过电话嘛，然后他说电话那头是一个很年轻的男人的声音。然后反正就是很多迹象，就硬不开门，然后我老公就说那次和我一起上去，甚至物业都在，他们也不开门的时候，再退回来的时候，我老公就把自己关在书房里了。而我敲门，我说我们去居委会，去街道那边反映这个情况，让他们配合一下。他就很烦躁，他说不去嘛。后来也吵起来的，反正就是一些迹象嘛，我就觉得……

袁莉:
[00:54:00]
其实他有感觉到，是吧。

贝女士:
[00:54:01]
对对，他都有感觉到的，然后他也都做好最坏打算的，有准备的。这是我现在就很清楚，就知道了。

袁莉:
[00:54:10]
（编程随想的粉丝）他还有一个问题就是——其实我觉得可能你也是没有办法来回答的——就是说他的这种信息安全知识非常丰富，跟这个网警猫鼠游戏了十几年，但是最终还是被追踪逮捕了。是他得意忘形暴露了痕迹，还是有其他隐情，警察是如何抓捕他的？想必很多翻墙的人士都很关心这一点。我不知道你能……

贝女士:
[00:54:33]
其实我知道，就是这些偏技术类的，我肯定是不懂的，我一窍不通的。但是因为他自己是搞网安的嘛，每个人都要有一些最基本的安全意识，所以这么多年来，他一直给我一些耳濡目染的熏陶的。比方说他硬要我把所有的电脑的摄像头贴掉，然后把这个手机的前置摄像头和后置摄像头都贴掉。还有他自己……

袁莉:
[00:55:02]
这么多年全是这样。

贝女士:
[00:55:03]
他如果看到出来看到我手机的摄像头暴露着，就要说我。然后他自己不用支付宝，不用微信，就像原始人生活的状态。然后所有买东西呀什么的，可能都是我用支付宝在处理，家里面的这些要网上购物的事情。所以这些他都是有这个……

袁莉:
[00:55:26]
他都是用现金吗？

贝女士:
[00:55:27]
对，他都是用现金的，然后或者拉卡（刷卡）这样子，在外面消费他拉卡这样的。然后他这种也有跟我提过嘛，这个社会工程学嘛，跟我说这些，一定要有这个意识。这些我是知道的，其他纯技术类的，我真的是一窍不通。
至于他是到底怎么被追踪出来的，我觉得他释放以后可以跟他讨论，而且我现在建推了嘛。我在推特的那个粉丝里面发现很多是对网络安全很有研究的这些推友，我觉得真的很高兴可以通过这个平台认识他们。因为曾经我有一段时间一直在想，我要为我老公出狱做准备嘛，我要给他记录一些就是笔记，就是这几年发生了些什么重大事情，让他出来的时候可以一下……就可以看到这些事情，然后去注意这些事情，马上可以就是follow up，可以去跟上这个时代，这个新技术嘛。我有想做这个事情。可惜我的技术太差了嘛，那些推友就是一个很好的，到时候可以和他交流的（人群）。我觉得这个是很好的一个朋友的（网络），这个可以建立起来的。

袁莉:
[00:56:38]
那接下来你能不能……前面你说了一些，但是你能不能接下来说一些更多的，就比如说这个阮晓寰他这个案子在司法程序上，在这个案子的审理过程中或者怎么样，你遇到了什么样的困难，或者说他遇到了什么样的困难，你觉得有不公正的地方吗？

贝女士:
[00:56:55]
其实整个案子，从他的抓捕，他们搜查的时候是没有搜查证进来的。然后是等到5月12号，然后才给我看的搜查证。然后他的拘留证也是他被带走两个礼拜之后，我才要到的。这些都让我质疑程序上的问题。这是侦查期的。
然后到了检察院阶段，竟然是基层的杨浦区检察院去做的批捕，他们根本是没有权利去做这个受理的。因为国家安全类的（案子），也是煽动颠覆国家政权类的，这个哪些是属于煽颠了，哪些是言论自由范围内的，就嫌疑人本身和办案人员，他都有主观判断的。
所以一般来说这个基层检察院是无权去受理这样子的，就是有主观倾向性的这种问题的。但就是杨浦区检察院批捕他，然后到了这个法院阶段，又是花了一年四个月的时间，这么长的时间去审理，这都让我觉得疑点重重，有程序问题。然后拿到一审判决书，连最基本的，他那个言论的证据都没有，哪些言论是不属于言论自由范围内了，而是煽颠了，你要说出言论证据的。谁主张谁举证，对不对？没有一个，没有任何言论证据。
在我看来，这样就是质证就可以推翻定罪的，所以我一直在希望二审要公开、公正，去体现依法治国。我也知道这个有些推友，他们就看到我的推特里面写了，就是避谈政治嘛。那为什么我要写这个话，因为就是每个公民，他都有自己的一些政治的思想或者政治观点吧，可以这样说。但是我们不能政治问题法律化，也不能法律问题政治化。所以这就是我为什么要在推特，主要推我老公案子的这个推特里面写清楚避谈政治。就是因为这个出发点。
所有的人类社会活动的最底层的逻辑就是出于利益嘛，那从利益角度，我也希望这些办案人员可以权衡利弊。他们之前一直想隐瞒他的编程随想博主的身份，那后来是家属自己发现曝光了。以前他们的假设不存在了，他们应该要调整了，然后包括一开始他们……

袁莉:
[00:59:17]
你说他们的假设不存在了，是指的什么样的假设呢？

贝女士:
[00:59:20]
其实他们一开始5月10号冲进来，这个搜查也好，把他暴力带走也好，这个都很奇怪的。因为以前的，我看到一些案例，煽颠罪是要先请喝茶的，也就是主观上面先去做调节嘛，对吧。那他没有喝茶这个过程，就直接这样把他带走，一直羁押到现在。然后他们为什么要这样做，大家应该都很明白嘛，无非最直接的目的就是想要攻破他的博客嘛，对吧，但是没有攻破他的博客。之后他们就是严密封锁他编程随想的博主身份，想低调处理吧。这些都是我自己的一个推断。
之后，今年三月份开始，已经曝光了他编程随想的博主身份了，那他博客还在，对嘛。然后他到底是什么言论啊，要扣上这样子的罪名，大家都可以有一个，每个人心里的一把秤的，对吧。
所以他们，就是我说的这些办案人员，就要去权衡利弊了。把他继续关押对于减小他的影响力没有任何的意义，对于国内维稳根本就谈不上，对吗？但是却是会烙下一个司法丑闻的可能性，还有会影响上海国际大都市的形象，甚至会涉及国际人权关注问题，对吗？所以我觉得权衡利弊的角度考虑，二审也应该要重新考虑如何体现司法公正。

袁莉:
[01:00:43]
那你就是希望在二审中能有什么样子的改变呢？就是你的诉求是什么？

贝女士:
[01:00:48]
其实一审判决书已经得到合议庭说，写着的，依法是可以从轻判处。那就算是罪名成立，就算退一万步讲，就算罪名成立，那根据这个法条是5年以下的有期徒刑，又是从轻处理，而我们减半，2.5年以下，对不对？那他现在是羁押状态，羁押一天算折抵一天的有期徒刑的嘛，那已经羁押两年多了嘛，那很快就是可以释放出狱了。这是最坏、退一万步讲他罪名成立的情况，更何况到现在一审判决书连证明罪名成立的言论证据都没有啊。所以我当然是坚信二审要改判的了。

袁莉:
[01:01:33]
这个粉丝他还有一个问题，就是说，良心犯们用自己的生活和未来来为大家争取更好的生活和未来。Ta说我们怎么能够做到袖手旁观呢？如果有人想帮你和阮晓寰的父母，有什么渠道吗？

贝女士:
[01:01:50]
其实我看到很多就是关心他的粉丝都在担心我们经济上面的问题，想要做经济上面的援助，其实我觉得这个我们还是可以的，不需要。这么多粉丝的关注和关心就是一种很强大的声援，以及在行使社会监督这个功能了，这个我们已经很感激了。而且有很多粉丝其实都已经在默默无闻地在做一些营救他的事情了，这样就可以了，我觉得很感激。

袁莉:
[01:02:19]
那你接下来的打算是什么？你会对未来感到害怕吗？

贝女士:
[01:02:23]
嗯，其实我觉得我自己是一直坚持着这样做，唯一的原因就是我2月10号看到他那个状态，我就只有这一个念头，就是要把他尽快救出来，其他我什么都没法想。至于以后的打算，我觉得希望他出来以后我们一起再商量吧。但是我坚信他出来以后，我们俩的关系肯定会比以前融洽得多，因为就没有再有彼此，或者说他对我就没有什么隐瞒的，不知道的了，就没有隐瞒的了，会更加融洽。而且我经历了这些事情以后，我也没有可能再回到以前这样子的状态了，都发生了很多的变化。

袁莉:
[01:03:05]
你是说，觉得你以前是一个什么状态？

贝女士:
[01:03:08]
我以前，应该就是生活就一直比较顺吧，可以这么说吧，所以其实不关心政治。

袁莉:
[01:03:18]
其实你也不说不关心政治，你就是不关心时事是吧。就是大多数中国人，大家都不是太关心的，因为没法关心政治。

贝女士:
[01:03:27]
对，关心不了，是的。然后我觉得我以前确实是，就是在浑浑噩噩地度日吧。但现在我觉得我老公做的事情很有意义，我也觉得很好。就是反正我觉得我也会觉得自己会有价值，把他救出来，就是这样。

袁莉:
[01:03:45]
你有没有什么没说的，就说你有没有什么特别想说的话，我没有问到。我特别喜欢，我特别喜欢你说他就像那个Neo，就是他会吞下这个红药丸。

贝女士:
[01:03:58]
其实我之前，就最近几个月，就他被捕前几个月，我不是意识到有一些问题了吗？潜意识，女人的直觉吧，但是我不相信他会做很冒险的事，因为他是一个为人非常谨慎的人，而且他非常在乎我们两个人的生活的，他不会冒很大的风险，而且他的技术在那里，不会出大问题。另外，我想他一个人关在房间里的一个宅男，能出什么大问题，对吗？但是我因为知道他花很长很长时间，肯定在做一件他觉得很有意义的事，那我又不上班了嘛，我也想让自己的人生变得有意义，想参与到他那个事情里面去嘛。所以我就有问他，我说你关在书房，你在做什么事情，你告诉我嘛，让我也觉得有价值感、有意义嘛，对吗？但是他就看着我，不告诉我。那因为我一直盯着他，眯着眼睛盯着他，他就说，你先去学学这个编程吧。我让你看的Python的书，你看了没有？你现在技术都不懂，我怎么跟你说嘛？所以他就又把我引导到他要我编程的上面。

袁莉:
[01:05:12]
对对。他就是让你相信他是在编程，不是在写东西。

贝女士:
[01:05:17]
嗯，这是一个。另外，他就想利用我的好奇心嘛，去引导我去学编程，就按照他说的，要去学编程，要去看书嘛，就是把这个话题扯开。

袁莉:
[01:05:29]
他挺可爱的，就是一个，其实是一个挺典型的程序员，是不是？

贝女士:
[01:05:34]
是，就是一个很单纯的人。然后你想，他的偶像是爱因斯坦嘛，他最喜欢的就是爱因斯坦那张吐舌头的，头发乱蓬蓬的那张照片，不拘小节的。他也是这个样子的。所以那我看丁律师（丁家喜）有一个，他们对待他的方法是不给他洗澡，对不对？（注：详见不明白播客EP-043《谁是许志永，谁是丁家喜》）

袁莉:
[01:05:55]
对，丁家喜，你说的是丁家喜。

贝女士:
[01:05:58]
对，我知道，就是……那阮晓寰就不用担心。

袁莉:
[01:06:03]
就是很难让他去洗澡是吗？但是丁家喜那可是六个月没让他洗澡，还是挺难受的，人都会难受的。

贝女士:
[01:06:14]
阮晓寰说，我洗完澡很舒服的呢，哎呀，但是我为什么就是不想洗澡呢？

袁莉:
[01:06:18]
他就想去坐在那儿，觉得……

贝女士:
[01:06:19]
浪费时间。

袁莉:
[01:06:21]
对对对。真的是啊，真的是一个挺可爱的人，嗯。

贝女士:
[01:06:26]
是，他很单纯很可爱的一个人。

袁莉:
[01:06:29]
好，谢谢。就是我们请每一位嘉宾推荐三部书或者电影，我不知道你有没有什么推荐。

贝女士:
[01:06:36]
我要推荐一本书和一个电影。这个书是是李德·哈特写的《战略论：间接路线》，就是很多时候两点间最短的不是直线，而是一个阻力最小的曲线。我想说，当你有目标的时候去想一想，是不是有一个间接的、战略的路线，可以阻力最小的达到你的目标。这是这本书，你们会有很多的体会和新的一些战略思路的。
一部电影，我还是想推荐《辩护人》这部电影。

袁莉:
[01:07:12]
韩国的《辩护人》。

贝女士:
[01:07:14]
对，这部电影会看到一个平凡的人，其实也是一个很市侩的人，当他身边的人发生了一些不公平的事情的时候，他这样一个平凡的人心底最最基本的正义感被激发出来以后，他的力量会有多强大。这是我最近看了以后的一点想法吧。我觉得每个人看这部电影都会有不同的角度和不同的想法。但是这是一部很值得一看的好电影。嗯，好。

袁莉:
[01:07:45]
嗯，好，谢谢。谢谢贝女士，也谢谢大家收听，我们下期再见。