Skip to content

Instantly share code, notes, and snippets.

@probonopd
Last active July 27, 2025 13:11
Think twice about Wayland. It breaks everything!

Think twice before abandoning X11. Wayland breaks everything!

image

Wayland breaks everything! It is binary incompatible, provides no clear transition path with 1:1 replacements for everything in X11, and is even philosophically incompatible with X11. Hence, if you are interested in existing applications to "just work" without the need for adjustments, then you may be better off avoiding Wayland.

Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need. Even the most basic, most simple things (like xkill) - in this case with no obvious replacement. And usually it stays broken, because the Wayland folks mostly seem to care about Automotive, Gnome, maybe KDE - and alienating everyone else (e.g., people using just an X11 window manager or something like GNUstep) in the process.

Feature comparison

Please do fact-check and suggest corrections/improvements below. Maybe this table should find its home in a Wiki, so that everyone could easily collaborate. I'm just a bit fearful of vandalism... ideas?

✅ Supported ⚠️ Available with limitations ❌ Not available or only available on some systems (requires particular compositors or additional software which may not be present on every system)

Functionality Xorg Wayland
Performance ✅ Best (DistroWatch) ⚠️ Worse (DistroWatch)
Power consumption ? ?
Memory usage ✅ ~150 MB lower (Phoronix) ⚠️ ~150 MB higher (Phoronix)
Nvidia GPUs ✅ Well supported by proprietary Nvidia driver, also older hardware (open source driver Nouveau never worked satisfactorily) ⚠️ Only recent hardware
Multi-monitor ✅ Supported via XRandR, Xinerama (TheServerHost, KDE Blog) ✅ Stable, dynamic hotplug, better multi-monitor support (KDE Blog, CBT Nuggets)
Multi-resolution Multi-screen Support ✅ Can be done (tedu); mixed refresh rates (guiodic, Reddit) ✅ Per-output resolutions and per-output scaling with sharp rendering (CBT Nuggets, EndeavourOS Forum)
Cropping and Scaling ✅ Per monitor with XRandR (xrandr manpage) wp_viewporter, wp_fractional_scale_manager_v1, per-window ("surface") cropping (Wayland Protos, KDE Dev)
Screen Recording / Capture ✅ Supported via X APIs; easy screen & window recording (Xlib Manual, OBS Wiki) ❌ Not natively available—wlr-screencopy and/or ext-image-copy-capture can be used without Portals but may not be present on every system. Otherwise requires Screencast Portal, which may not be present on every system (GNOME Docs, PipeWire Portal FAQ).
Input Devices / Event Routing XInput, XInput2, global intercept (XInput2 Docs) ❌ Input routed only to focused window ("surface"), no global interception (Wayland FAQ, Wayland Security)
Input Injection ✅ Via XTEST, XSendEvent (XTEST Spec) ❌ Not natively available—requires Remote Desktop Portal, which may not be present on every system (libei GH, KDE Input) . Workaround: /dev/uinput should work everywhere.
Global Hotkeys / Key Grabs XGrabKey()/XGrabButton() (Xlib Docs) ❌ Not natively available—requires Global Shortcuts Portal, which may not be present on every system (Portal Docs, KDE)
Window Positioning / Stacking ✅ Clients move/resize windows (Xlib Ref) ❌ Only compositor controls window positioning (Wayland FAQ, KDE Dev)
Clipboard Access ✅ Full/explicit, ICCCM selections (ICCCM) ❌ Not natively available—requires Clipboard Portal, which may not be present on every system (Clipboard Portal, Wayland FAQ)
Drag and Drop / Copy and Paste ✅ Xdnd, Motif (Xdnd Spec), Motif (Motif DND) ⚠️ wl_data_offer, wl_data_device_manager (Wayland Protos, KDE Drag&Drop) but implementations are flaky, especially when dragging between X11 and Wayland applications
Touch / Gesture Support XInput2 (XInput Multi-Touch) wl_touch, gestures via zwp_pointer_gestures_v1 (Wayland Protos)
Tablet Support XInput2 (libinput Tablet) zwp_tablet_manager_v2 (Wayland Protos)
Remote Display / Network Transparency ✅ X11 protocol, SSH forwarding (OpenBSD FAQ, XForwarding) ❌ Not natively available—requires Remote Desktop Portal, which may not be present on every system (Wayland FAQ)
Screen Configuration XRandR direct (xrandr manpage) ❌ Only compositor can set layout; clients have no access (KDE Dev). Supported by some compositors which may not be present on every system via wlr-output-management and associated tools like wlr-randr.
Global menus ✅ Works ❌ Not natively available—requires qt_extended_surface set_generic_property which may not be present on every system
Window Management Hints (size, position) XSetWMHints, XSetNormalHints (ICCCM) ❌ Position not supported, only size
Window Title / Icon Name XSetWMName, XSetIconName (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_title/set_icon (xdg-shell)
Window State (iconic, withdrawn, etc.) XSetWMState (ICCCM) ❌ Not exposed to clients; handled by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Window Protocols (WM_DELETE_WINDOW) ✅ ICCCM, WM_DELETE_WINDOW (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.close (xdg-shell)
Window Class / Instance XSetClassHint (ICCCM) ❌ Not supported (Wayland FAQ)
Window Transience (dialogs, popups) XSetTransientForHint (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_parent (xdg-shell)
Input Focus (active window) XSetInputFocus (Xlib Ref) ❌ Managed by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Selections ✅ Selections (ICCCM) ❌ Not natively available—requires Clipboard Portal, which may not be present on every system (Clipboard Portal, Wayland FAQ)
Drag and Drop ✅ Motif/Xdnd (Xdnd Spec) ✅ Native protocol (Wayland/Drag&Drop)
Window Grouping XSetWMHints group (ICCCM) ❌ No concept/protocol for grouping (Wayland FAQ)
Input Model / Input Hint ✅ Input model hints (ICCCM) ❌ Not exposed/natively supported (Wayland FAQ)
Window Manager Communication ✅ ICCCM client-to-WM (ICCCM) ❌ No standard protocol (Wayland FAQ)
Colormap / Visual hints ✅ Colormap per ICCCM (ICCCM) ⚠️ Handled by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Icon Pixmap / Bitmap ✅ ICCCM icon hints (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_icon (xdg-shell)
Urgency Hint XUrgencyHint (ICCCM) ❌ Not standardized; up to compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Window Shade (roll up/down) WM_STATE (mapped/unmapped state) ❌ Not supported
Window Always On Top (z-order) ✅ Applications can request stacking/z-order via WM_HINTS, window group, _NET_WM_STATE_ABOVE (EWMH) ❌ Not supported
Exclusive Display Control / DRM Leasing ⚠️ No protocol, possible with libdrm (libdrm) wp_drm_lease_v1 (Wayland Protos)
Transparency / Compositing ⚠️ With composite extension/compton/picom (wiki.archlinux) ✅ Built-in; always composited (Wayland FAQ)
Color Management ⚠️ Apps/loaders like xiccd (XCM docs) wp-color-manager-v1 (Wayland Protos)
VSync / Tear-free Rendering ⚠️ Inconsistent, needs correct driver/config (AskUbuntu) ✅ Guaranteed by compositor; always tear-free (Wayland FAQ)
Security / App Isolation ⚠️ Via extensions, e.g., Xnamespace extension (The Register) ⚠️ Wayland tries to separate applications from each other. As a result, applications can't do many things ("We're treated like hostile threat actors on our own workstations")
Click into a window to terminate the application xkill ❌ Not natively available—some compositors may have proprietary mechanisms, which may not be present on every system
Click into a window to see its metadata xprop ❌ Not supported
Set and get metadata (properties) on windows to exchange information regarding windows ✅ X Atoms (Docs) ❌ Not supported
One window server used by virtually all desktop environments and distributions ✅ Xorg (and Xlibre) ❌ Every desktop environment comes with a different compositor, which behaves differently, supports different features and has different bugs

Status update

Update 06/2025: X11 is alive and well, despite what Red Hat wants you to believe. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver revitalizes the Xorg X11 server as a community project under new leadership.

And Red Hat wanted to silence it.


As 2024 is winding down:

For the record, even in the latest Raspberry Pi OS you still can't drag a file from inside a zip file onto the desktop for it to be extracted. So drag-and-drop is still broken for me.

And Qt move() on a window still doesn't work like it does on all other desktop platforms (and the Wayland folks think that is good).

And global menus still don't work (outside of not universally implemented things like qt_extended_surface set_generic_property).

Wayland issues

The Wayland project seems to operate like they were starting a greenfield project, whereas at the same time they try to position Wayland as "the X11 successor", which would clearly require a lot of thought about not breaking, or at least providing a smooth upgrade path for, existing software.

In fact, it is merely an incompatible alternative, and not even one that has (nor wants to have) feature parity (missing features). And unlike X11 (the X Window System), Wayland protocol designers actively avoid the concept of "windows" (making up incomprehensible words like "xdg_toplevel" instead).

DO NOT USE A WAYLAND SESSION! Let Wayland not destroy everything and then have other people fix the damage it caused. Or force more Red Hat/Gnome components (glib, Portals, Pipewire) on everyone!

Please add more examples to the list.

Wayland seems to be made by people who do not care for existing software. They assume everyone is happy to either rewrite everything or to just use Gnome on Linux (rather than, say, twm with ROX Filer on NetBSD).

Edit: When I wrote the above, I didn't really realize what Wayland even was, I just noticed that some distributions (like Fedora) started pushing it onto me and things didn't work properly there. Today I realize that you can't "install Wayland", because unlike Xorg, there is not one "Wayland display server" but actually every desktop envrironment has its own. And maybe "the Wayland folks" don't "only care about Gnome", but then, any fix that is done in Gnome's Wayland implementation isn't automatically going to benefit all users of Wayland-based software, and possibly isn't even the implementation "the Wayland folks" would necessarily recommend.

Edit 12/2023: If something wants to replace X11 for desktop computers (such as professional Unix workstations), then it better support all needed features (and key concepts, like windows) for that use case. That people also have displays on their fridge doesn't matter the least bit in that context of discussion. Let's propose the missing Wayland protocols for full X11 feature parity.

Edit 08/2024: "Does Wayland becoming the defacto standard display server for Linux serve to marginalize BSD?" https://fossforce.com/2024/07/the-unintended-consequences-linuxs-wayland-adoption-will-have-on-bsd/

Wayland is broken by design

  • A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications
  • You cannot run applications as root
  • You cannot do a lot of things that you can do in Xorg by design
  • There is not one /usr/bin/wayland display server application that is desktop environment agnostic and is used by everyone (unlike with Xorg)
  • It offloads a lot of work to each and every window manager. As a result, the same basic features get implemented differently in different window managers, with different behaviors and bugs - so what works on desktop environment A does not necessarily work in desktop environment B (e.g., often you hear that something "works in Wayland", even though it only really works on Gnome and KDE, not in all Wayland implementations). This summarizes it very well: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

Apparently the Wayland project doesn't even want to be "X.org 2.0", and doesn't want to provide a commonly used implementation of a compositor that could be used by everyone: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233. Yet this would imho be required if they want to make it into a worthwile "successor" that would have any chance of ever fixing the many Wayland issues at the core.

Wayland breaks screen recording applications

  • MaartenBaert/ssr#431 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016, no resolution ("I guess they use a non-standard GNOME interface for this")
  • https://github.com/mhsabbagh/green-recorder ❌ ("I am no longer interested in working with things like ffmpeg/wayland/GNOME's screencaster or solving the issues related to them or why they don't work")
  • vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG#51 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("I have now decided that there will be no Wayland support for the time being. Reason, there is no budget for it. Let's see how it looks in a year or two.") - This is the key problem. Wayland breaks everything and then expects others to fix the wreckage it caused on their own expense.
  • obsproject/obs-studio#2471 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("Wayland is unsupported at this time", "There isn't really something that can just be easily changed. Wayland provides no capture APIs")
  • There is a workaround for OBS Studio that requires a obs-xdg-portal plugin (which is known to be Red Hat/Flatpak-centric, GNOME-centric, "perhaps" works with other desktops)
  • phw/peek#1191 ❌ broken since 14 Jan 2023. Peek, a screen recording tool, has been abandoned by its developerdue to a number of technical challenges, mostly with Gtk and Wayland ("Many of these have to do with how Wayland changed the way applications are being handled")

As of February 2024, screen recording is still broken utterly on Wayland with the vast majority of tools. Proof

Workaround: Find a Wayland compositor that supports the wlr-screencopy-unstable-v1 protocol and use wf-recorder -a. The default compositor in Raspberry Pi OS (Wayfire) does, but the default compositor in Ubuntu doesn't. (That's the worst part of Wayland: Unlike with Xorg, it always depends on the particular Wayand compositor what works and what is broken. Is there even one that supports everything?)

Wayland breaks screen sharing applications

  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#2350 ❌ broken since 3 Jan 2018
  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#6389 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016 ("Closing since there is nothing we can do from the Jitsi Meet side.") See? Wayland breaks stuff and leaves application developers helpless and unable to fix the breakage, even if they wanted.

NOTE: As of November 2023, screen sharing in Chromium using Jitsi Meet is still utterly broken, both in Raspberry Pi OS Desktop, and in a KDE Plasma installation, albeit with different behavior. Note that Pipewire, Portals and whatnot are installed, and even with them it does not work.

Wayland breaks automation software

sudo pkg install py37-autokey

This is an X11 application, and as such will not function 100% on 
distributions that default to using Wayland instead of Xorg.

Wayland breaks Gnome-Global-AppMenu (global menus for Gnome)

Wayland broke global menus with KDE platformplugin

Good news: According to this report global menus now work with KDE platformplugin as of 4/2022

Wayland breaks global menus with non-KDE Qt platformplugins

Wayland breaks AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/03/unsetting-qt_qpa_platform-environment-variable-by-default/ ❌ broke AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin. "This affects proprietary applications, FLOSS applications bundled as appimages, FLOSS applications bundled as flatpaks and not distributed by KDE and even the Qt installer itself. In my opinion this is a showstopper for running a Wayland session." However, there is a workaround: "AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode" (see below).

Wayland breaks Redshift

Update 2023: Some Wayland compositors (such as Wayfire) now support wlr_gamma_control_unstable_v1, see https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/wiki/Tutorial#configuring-wayfire and jonls/redshift#663. Does it work in all Wayland compositors though?

Wayland breaks global hotkeys

Wayland does not work for Xfce?

See below.

Wayland does not work properly on NVidia hardware?

Apparently Wayland relies on nouveau drivers for NVidia hardware. The nouveau driver has been giving unsatisfactory performance since its inception. Even clicking on the application starter icon in Gnome results in a stuttery animation. Only the proprietary NVidia driver results in full performance.

See below.

Update 2024: The situation might slowly be improving. It remains to be seen whether this will work well also for all existing old Nvidia hardware (that works well in Xorg).

Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware

Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root

  • https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1274451 ❌ broken since 22 Oct 2015 ("No this will only fix sudo for X11 applications. Running GUI code as root is still a bad idea." I absolutely detest it when software tries to prevent me from doing what some developer thinks is "a bad idea" but did not consider my use case, e.g., running truss for debugging on FreeBSD needs to run the application as root. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323302 suggests it is not possible: "These sorts of security considerations are very much the way that "the Linux desktop" is going these days".)

Suggested solution

Wayland is biased toward Linux and breaks BSD

  • https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/wayland_on_netbsd_trials_and ❌ broken since 28 Sep 2020 ("Wayland is written with the assumption of Linux to the extent that every client application tends to #include <linux/input.h> because Wayland's designers didn't see the need to define a OS-neutral way to get mouse button IDs. (...) In general, Wayland is moving away from the modularity, portability, and standardization of the X server. (...) I've decided to take a break from this, since it's a fairly huge undertaking and uphill battle. Right now, X11 combined with a compositor like picom or xcompmgr is the more mature option."

Wayland complicates server-side window decorations

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/server-side-decorations-and-wayland/ ❌ FUD since at least 27 January 2018 ("I heard that GNOME is currently trying to lobby for all applications implementing client-side decorations. One of the arguments seems to be that CSD is a must on Wayland. " ... "I’m burnt from it and are not interested in it any more.") Server-side window decorations are what make the title bar and buttons of all windows on a system consistent. They are a must have_ for a consistent system, so that applications written e.g., Gtk will not look entirely alien on e.g., a Qt based desktop, and to enforce that developers cannot place random controls into window titles where they do not belong. Client-side decorations, on the other hand, are destroying uniformity and consistency, put additional burden on application and toolkit developers, and allow e.g., GNOME developers to put random controls (that do not belong there) into window titles (like buttons), hence making it more difficult to achieve a uniform look and feel for all applications regardless of the toolkit being used.

Red Hat employee Matthias Clasen ("I work at the Red Hat Desktop team... I am actually a manager there... the people who do the actual work work for me") expicitly stated "Client-side everything" as a principle, even though the protocol doesn't enforce it: "Fonts, Rendering, Nested Windows, Decorations. "It also gives the design more freedom to use the titlebar space, which is something our designers appreciate" (sic). Source

Wayland breaks windows rasing/activating themselves

Wayland breaks RescueTime

Wayland breaks window managers

Apparently Wayland (at least as implemented in KWin) does not respect EWMH protocols, and breaks other command line tools like wmctrl, xrandr, xprop, etc. Please see the discussion below for details.

Wayland requires JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM,... to reimplement Xorg-like functionality

  • Screen recording and casting
  • Querying of the mouse position, keyboard LED state, active window position or name, moving windows (xdotool, wmctrl)
  • Global shortcuts
  • System tray
  • Input Method support/editor (IME)
  • Graphical settings management (i.e. tools like xranrd)
  • Fast user switching/multiple graphical sessions
  • Session configuration including but not limited to 1) input devices 2) monitors configuration including refresh rate / resolution / scaling / rotation and power saving 3) global shortcuts
  • HDR/deep color support
  • VRR (variable refresh rate)
  • Disabling input devices (xinput alternative)

As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. You do not expect JWM, TWM, XDM or even IceWM developers to implement all the featured outlined in ^1.

Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol

  • https://github.comelectron/electron#33226 ("skipTaskbar has no effect on Wayland. Currently Electron uses _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR to tell the WM to hide an app from the taskbar, and this works fine on X11 but there's no equivalent mechanism in Wayland." Workarounds are only available for some desktops including GNOME and KDE Plasma.) ❌ broken since March 10, 2022

Wayland breaks NoMachine NX

Wayland breaks xclip

xclip is a command line utility that is designed to run on any system with an X11 implementation. It provides an interface to X selections ("the clipboard"). Apparently Wayland isn't compatible to the X11 clipboard either.

This is another example that the Wayland requires everyone to change components and take on additional work just because Wayland is incompatible to what we had working for all those years.

Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS

Wayland breaks auto-type in password managers

Wayland breaks X11 atoms

X11 atoms can be used to store information on windows. For example, a file manager might store the path that the window represents in an X11 atom, so that it (and other applications) can know for which paths there are open file manager windows. Wayland is not compatible to X11 atoms, resulting in all software that relies on them to be broken until specifically ported to Wayland (which, in the case of legacy software, may well be never).

Possible workaround (to be verified): Use the (Qt proprietary?) Extended Surface Wayland protocol casually mentioned in https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ "which allows you to set (and read?) arbitrary properties on a window". Is it the set_generic_property from https://github.com/qt/qtwayland/blob/dev/src/extensions/surface-extension.xml?

Wayland breaks games

Games are developed for X11. And if you run a game on Wayland, performance is subpar due to things like forced vsync. Only recently, some Wayland implementations (like KDE KWin) let you disable that.

Wayland breaks xdotool

(Details to be added; apparently no 1:1 drop-in replacement available?)

Wayland breaks xkill

xkill (which I use on a regular basis) does not work with Wayland applications.

What is the equivalent for Wayland applications?

Wayland breaks screensavers

Is it true that Wayland also breaks screensavers? https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/

Wayland breaks setting the window position

Other platforms (Windows, Mac, other destop environments) can set the window position on the screen, so all cross-platform toolkits and applications expect to do the same on Wayland, but Wayland can't (doesn't want to) do it.

  • PCSX2/pcsx2#10179 PCX2 (Playstation 2 Emulator) ❌ broken since 2023-10-25 ("Disables Wayland, it's super broken/buggy in basically every scenario. KDE isn't too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster.")

  • Wayland might allow the compositor (not: the application) to set window positions, but that means that as an application author, I can't do anything but wait for KDE to implement https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15329 - and even then, it will only work under KDE, not Gnome or elsewhere. Big step backward compared to X11!

Wayland breaks color mangement

Apparently color management as of 2023 (well over a decade of Wayland development) is still in the early "thinking" stage, all the while Wayland is already being pushed on people as if it was a "X11 successor".

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pq/color-and-hdr/-/blob/main/doc/color-management-model.md

Wayland breaks DRM leasing

According to Valve, "DRM leasing is the process which allows SteamVR to take control of your VR headset's display in order to present low-latency VR content".

Wayland breaks In-home Streaming

Wayland breaks NetWM

Extended Window Manager Hints, a.k.a. NetWM, is an X Window System standard for the communication between window managers and applications

Wayland breaks window icons

Update 6/2024: Looks like this will get unbroken thanks to xdg_toplevel_icon_manager_v1, so that QWindow::setIcon will work again. If, and that's a big if, all compositors will support it. At least KDE is on it.

Wayland breaks drag and drop

Wayland breaks ./windowmanager --replace

  • Many window managers have a --replace argument, but Wayland compositors break this convention.

Wayland breaks Xpra

Xpra is an open-source multi-platform persistent remote display server and client for forwarding applications and desktop screens.

  • Under Xpra a context menu cannot be used: it opens and closes automatically before you can even move the mouse on it. "It's not just GDK, it's the Wayland itself. They decided to break existing applications and expect them to change how they work." (Xpra-org/xpra#4246) ❌ broken since 2024-06-01

Wayland breaks multi desktop docks

  • "Unfortunately Wayland is not designed to support multi desktop dock projects. This is why each DE using Wayland is building their own custom docks. Plus there is a lot of complexity to support Wayland based apps and also merge that data with apps running in Xwayland. A dock isn't useful unless it knows about every window and app running on the system." zquestz/plank-reloaded#70 ❌ broken since 2025-06-10

Xwayland breaks window resizing

Workarounds

  • Users: Refuse to use Wayland sessions. Uninstall desktop environments/Linux distributions that only ship Wayland sessions. Avoid Wayland-only applications (such as PreSonus Studio One) (potential workaround: run in https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage)
  • Application developers: Enforce running applications on X11/XWayland (like LibrePCB does as of 11/2023)

Examples of Wayland being forced on users

This is exactly the kind of behavior this gist seeks to prevent.

Summary what is wrong with Wayland, by one of its contributors

image

Source: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/179#note_2965661

History

  • 2008: Wayland was started by krh (while at Red Hat)
  • End of 2012: Wayland 1.0
  • Early 2013: GNOME begins Wayland porting

Source: "Where's Wayland?" by Matthias Clasen - Flock 2014

A decade later... Red Hat wants to force Wayland upon everyone, removing support for Xorg

What now?

Following the professional application KiCad's advice:

Recommendations for Users

For Professional Use

If you use KiCad professionally or require a reliable, full-featured experience, we strongly recommend:

Use X11-based desktop environments such as:

XFCE with X11 KDE Plasma with X11 MATE

Traditional desktop environments that maintain X11 support

Install X11-compatible display managers like LightDM or KDM instead of GDM if your distribution defaults to Wayland-only

Choose distributions that maintain X11 support - some distributions are moving to Wayland-only configurations that may not meet your needs

Source: https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/#

Similarly, for Krite: https://www.davidrevoy.com/article1030/debian-12-kde-plasma-2024-install-guide#d-krita-as-appimage

References

@alerikaisattera
Copy link

How about the window manager does that?

@guiodic
Copy link

guiodic commented Jul 26, 2025

How about the window manager does that?

The wm cant read the developer mind.

@probonopd
Copy link
Author

probonopd commented Jul 26, 2025

That would mean that all window managers would need to have a standardized way to talk to the application. Ideally without bloated D-Bus.

@guiodic
Copy link

guiodic commented Jul 26, 2025

That would mean that all window managers would need to have a standardized way to talk to the application. Ideally without bloated D-Bus.

In X11 it is ICCCM/EWMH. Unless the window is unmanaged, it is the WM that has the final decision on what happens on the screen. In facts, you can configure it to ignore app's requests. Wayland cult members believe that, under X11, windows are unmanaged. They dont understand what "window manager" means.

@CarlosVonEsteban
Copy link

we will make sensible decisions for them

"These poor savage things will never embrace salvation.
I will have to rape it into them."
https://clarkesworldmagazine.com/watts_01_10/ ("The Thing", but from the thing's perspective)

Wow, how comforting...

@probonopd
Copy link
Author

https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=showheadline&story=20024

Added a "Performance" row at the top of the table.

@JRRandall
Copy link

JRRandall commented Jul 26, 2025

Wayland cult members believe that, under X11, windows are unmanaged. They dont understand what "window manager" means.

Sadly, this fact would explain most of the massive disconnect in design and implementation.

@alerikaisattera
Copy link

The wm cant read the developer mind.

It can place windows on the screen. That's the only thing that matters

@probonopd
Copy link
Author

In random locations of its own choosing. Window salad for multi-window applications.

@alerikaisattera
Copy link

In random locations of its own choosing

It doesn't have to be random

Window salad for multi-window applications

The user can place these many windows as they are created

@guiodic
Copy link

guiodic commented Jul 26, 2025

In random locations of its own choosing

It doesn't have to be random

Window salad for multi-window applications

The user can place these many windows as they are created

You seem to have no idea how to use a computer normally. It is no accident that any desktop platform allows apps to ask the windows manager to position windows as the app wishes. It's like that on Windows, it's like that on Mac, it's like that on X11. On the other hand, on Wayland everything is more complicated and one has to study experimental protocols that who knows if and when and how they will be implemented, and still fail to do what is normally possible everywhere.
No platform designed for the desktop behaves this way. Only windowless platforms (Android, iOS) have such heavy restrictions. And this proves that Wayland was not designed for a desktop platform with windows, but for embedded systems.

@alerikaisattera
Copy link

You seem to have no idea how to use a computer normally.

You seem to have no idea how to use a computer normally. Any program that for any reason must set the position of its windows by itself is a poorly designed program

@guiodic
Copy link

guiodic commented Jul 26, 2025

You seem to have no idea how to use a computer normally.

You seem to have no idea how to use a computer normally. Any program that for any reason must set the position of its windows by itself is a poorly designed program

It is quite the opposite. The interfaces of complex applications must know where their windows end up. They cannot be kept in the dark about what the interface will look like once it is open. And only the application developer can know what is best to do.
Think of this case: a video editor that can be configured to use three screens: one for previewing the clip, one for previewing the project, and one for actual editing (timeline, effects, etc.).

Let us say that the user normally uses three screens.

Firstly, the app must be able to save and restore its state so that the user does not have to move the randomly placed windows each time.

Secondly, it may happen that secondary screens are disconnected, for instance because you have taken your laptop on a trip. If the app does not know this, the windows will end up in a more or less causal place. If, on the other hand, the app does know this, it can decide what is best to do, e.g. create tabs within the main interface, so that the app is immediately usable again and the user does not have to go crazy reconfiguring it.

@CarlosVonEsteban
Copy link

Any program that for any reason must set the position of its windows by itself is a poorly designed program

"We know better than the creators of Paint.NET, Adobe Photoshop, Inkscape, Krita, AutoCAD, Blender, Audacity, Eclipse IDE, and even GIMP (The origin of GTK), and many more. What do you mean, you use these programs? No use case, deprecated"
What level of delusion is this?

@probonopd
Copy link
Author

probonopd commented Jul 27, 2025

@alerikaisattera real world professional multiplatform applications are not 1-window toy "apps" like the ones that come with Gnome.

@Loonekud
Copy link

I made this with the according to probono non-real-world unprofessional non-multiplatform toy "app" named GIMP that somehow manages to handle multi-window layouts in... 1 window!

probono

@kkmzero
Copy link

kkmzero commented Jul 27, 2025

I made this with the according to probono non-real-world unprofessional non-multiplatform toy "app" named GIMP that somehow manages to handle multi-window layouts in... 1 window!

This is how I see xdg_toplevel after swallowing 15 benadryls and heating that X11 crystal in pipe.

@alerikaisattera
Copy link

"We know better than the creators of Paint.NET, Adobe Photoshop, Inkscape, Krita, AutoCAD, Blender, Audacity, Eclipse IDE, and even GIMP (The origin of GTK), and many more. What do you mean, you use these programs? No use case, deprecated"
What level of delusion is this?

X11 simps are so utterly deranged lol

All these programs run in one window and therefore don't need to move their windows. Some of there aren't even available for Linux.

The day has come when X11 simps are more insane than Waypiss simps. Guess that means that Waypiss is indeed better than X11 nowadays

@kkmzero
Copy link

kkmzero commented Jul 27, 2025

All these programs run in one window and therefore don't need to move their windows. Some of there aren't even available for Linux.

I don't know what Photoshop uses these days but in 7.0 you'd get main window and then all sorts of toolbars and dialogs. I vaguely remember them being native windows too. When you say windows, do you people here even mean the same thing? On Windows everything is a window technically, at least it used to be. Even your text areas, your status bar, etc. - you'd call CreateWindow for these with extra flags. I'm not really sure what even window means on Linux since terminology was changed and nothing is what it used to be. Dialogs, toolbars, pop-ups - these are not windows on Linux?

@CarlosVonEsteban
Copy link

All these programs run in one window and therefore don't need to move their windows

The usage of a tool says more about the user than said tool. You use them in a very limited manner, because you yourself are limited by your narrow ideas and pitiful financial situation (Subhumans cannot afford multiple monitors due to their spending habits.).

Some of there aren't even available for Linux.

Unlike you, I am employed, and therefore have money. I own several computers and run multiple operating systems. I needn't constrain myself to Linux alone, and even if I could, I wouldn't want to, mainly because of all THIS and your filthy ilk (that caused it in the first place).

The day has come when X11 simps are more insane than Waypiss simps. Guess that means that Waypiss is indeed better than X11 nowadays

wayfag judges software based on "community" and marketing instead of usefulness and features, colour me surprised. -_-

@richRemer
Copy link

richRemer commented Jul 27, 2025

"We know better than the creators of Paint.NET, Adobe Photoshop, Inkscape, Krita, AutoCAD, Blender, Audacity, Eclipse IDE, and even GIMP (The origin of GTK), and many more. What do you mean, you use these programs? No use case, deprecated"
What level of delusion is this?

X11 simps are so utterly deranged lol

All these programs run in one window and therefore don't need to move their windows. Some of there aren't even available for Linux.

You're just plain wrong. GIMP can run with its toolbars in separate windows. Eclipse allows you to tearaway most of its toolbars into separate windows. And those are just the two that I am familiar with. I can only assume you have no idea what you're talking about for the other apps either.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

Just because you're a simple user who doesn't know how to customize anything doesn't mean the rest of the world is.

@reaperx7
Copy link

reaperx7 commented Jul 27, 2025

Many applications use dockable windows. GIMP, OBS, and many others. Just because you don't use them, doesn't mean your use case is everyone's use case. I use several dockable windows using OBS daily for various tasks. It helps with the layout for what I do.

@Consolatis
Copy link

There is no question that a restore-my-windows-to-this-earlier-state feature is missing in Wayland. However, I don't quite get why an application needs to place the windows itself to allow for that workflow. As a user I'd much prefer if that placement is done by the thing always used to place windows, namely the compositor (regardless of being a tiling, scrolling or a stacking one). Why does it have to be the application that places those windows?

@kkmzero
Copy link

kkmzero commented Jul 27, 2025

There is no question that a restore-my-windows-to-this-earlier-state feature is missing in Wayland. However, I don't quite get why an application needs to place the windows itself to allow for that workflow.

Because we can not rely on Linuxoids to do things right ever, especially when it comes to desktop. So the more functionality you provide for us and allow us to do the work, the happier we'll be. It's the same reason why people re-implement functions provided by various Microsoft's APIs or even standard C/C++ libraries. As user you should not care if the placement after window restoration is done by compositor, all you want is that your windows open reliably with coords you expect them to have. As developer you do not want to depend on some random compositor implementation written by who knows who doing who knows what.

inb4 completely insane reply by delusional waylandoid defending this piece of shit design

@Consolatis
Copy link

So how would that work in X11 for a tiling window manager for example?

@kkmzero
Copy link

kkmzero commented Jul 27, 2025

So how would that work in X11 for a tiling window manager for example?

Confused Waylandoid again defaults to "b-but X11..." like every single time before to derail the point and escape the shame of Wayland's poor architecture 🥱

@Consolatis
Copy link

Consolatis commented Jul 27, 2025

So how would that work in X11 for a tiling window manager for example?

Confused Waylandoid again defaults to "b-but X11..." like every single time before to derail the point and escape the shame of Wayland's poor architecture 🥱

I have no clue what you are saying. We discuss multi-window applications and I asked how they can currently position their windows in a tiling X11 window manager. If that isn't working currently it would indicate that applications should not position their own windows and leave that job to the window manager / compositor because that is what its supposed to do: organizing windows. And then allow applications to restore an earlier window state when for example starting up or reacting to some "use layout X" button press within their application.

@kkmzero
Copy link

kkmzero commented Jul 27, 2025

I asked how they can currently position their windows in a tiling X11 window manager.

I give you one very dumb solution that would work if Linuxoids would do their job and I'm sure you can think of plethora of better solutions. You'd give me create_window function with x, y coords. If I pass to them something "invalid", such as -1, -1, the compositor or window manager or whatever you call it will encounter this while attempting to create the window and be like "holy heavens, I have invalid x, y coords for this call, I must position and size the window myself!". All we'd need in this case is to identify that we are running on a tiling WM but this is technology that goes beyond what Linuxoid is capable of imagining. Other way of doing this would be some sort of window class, or overloaded function, which would tell the WM directly that we do not care about window coords/size at all and we allow WM to handle it - in other cases when we know that we run on a system that is not tiling we position the window ourselves.

@Consolatis
Copy link

None of that makes any sense whatsoever.

@kkmzero
Copy link

kkmzero commented Jul 27, 2025

None of that makes any sense whatsoever.

To you.

Sign up for free to join this conversation on GitHub. Already have an account? Sign in to comment