It’s Not Just Trump Voters. Both Parties Are in Denial.

In this episode of “The Opinions,” the editorial board director David Leonhardt talks to Arlie Russell Hochschild about why voters in Appalachia continue to support the president, despite the broken promises of Trump’s first term and looming cuts to social programs they depend on.

Below is a transcript of an episode of “The Opinions.” We recommend listening to it in its original form for the full effect. You can do so using the player above or on the NYT Audio App, Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

The transcript has been lightly edited for length and clarity.

David Leonhardt: I’m David Leonhardt, the director of the New York Times editorial board. Every week I’m having conversations to help shape the board’s opinions.

This week I’m talking with Arlie Russell Hochschild. She’s an eminent sociologist who a decade ago coined the term, “the great paradox.” It describes the fact that hatred of government often seems to be most intense among people who most rely on government. And that working-class voters are increasingly turning against policies and politicians that seem to benefit those voters.

Donald Trump’s second term has made the great paradox all the more relevant. He’s shutting down government agencies and his bill that he’s trying to pass through Congress would cut taxes for the rich while taking away health insurance from the middle class and poor. And yet millions of Donald Trump supporters continue to stand strongly by him.

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