Welcome to Reddit,

the front page of the internet.
Become a Redditor
and join one of thousands of communities.
×
1074
1075
1076
submitted by therealwench
So, I do a big trip to China once every few years and just came back from my most recent one and this trip left me a little confused. Every time I go talk to people and ask about how things are, what the local economy is like. I usually start off in my home city (Which I'll not disclose) to meet family, and then meet friends in Shanghai and Beijing, before venturing off into other cities, mainly for touristic reasons and exploring.
The general macroeconomic indicators of China's economy seems good. 5% GDP growth, sub 1% inflation, employment on the rise and manufacturing/exports sector always seem positive since the covid bounce. The last time I was in China was 2022 and the sentiment wasn't fantastic but everyone chalked it down to covid. Prior to that, everyone I spoke to was positive and optimistic and things were always getting better.
This time however, people seemed miserable. From top to bottom, professionals and high earners to taxi drivers and small restaurant popup shop owners. Everyone is saying the same things, regardless of what cities they are in, whether its Shanghai/Beijing or 2nd/3rd tier cities.
-Everyone complaining that there is no money to be made. Had a taxi driver in Shanghai tell me that after costs of DiDi and fees etc, he makes way less than 10,000RMB a month (which for Shanghai is pretty poor). People are stating that their salaries have actually decreased significantly in real terms since pre covid and that even government officials are getting their salaries cut.
-There is crumbling infrastructure that wasn't there the last few times that I was in China and when asking locals about it the response seems to be similar. "小政府没钱" - Local Government is broke. Mind you, this isn't some rural hukou government in Shanxi, this is like sub-urban Liaoning, Fujian and Sichuan.
-In my families city, a lot of the small restaurants that I used to go to have shut shop, around my families homes. Also, the local market prices hasn't seem to have increased since I was a teenager, which was decades ago. It was 13RMB to buy beef noodle soup back then for breakfast and it's now 14RMB. How are these farmers/small restaurant owners making money?
-Parents all complaining about how the pressure of kids education is immense. Extra tutoring since the age of 6-8, forcing them to learn a musical instrument because everyone else is, 10-12 hour school days since the age of 11-12. Gaokao was always a bitch since forever but I don't recall it being that bad for younger children.
-Shopping malls are all empty. I went to three different "中街" in three different tier 1 cities and it was basically just empty. The only places that weren't empty were the food courts. Again, 5-10 years ago these places used to be bustling and full of people.
-I have a lot of family working in the car industry in the North East. Apparently the industry is in a big decline and there are massive redundancies and layoffs, including big name brands like BMW. Funnily enough, BYD which the west sees as very bullish shares the opposite sentiment in China. A lot of people thinks its shit (don't really understand why because being in BYD taxi's, they feel pretty nice).
-Not a single person I spoke to had something good to say about the direction of the country. Which is a complete turnaround from 2018 and 2015 and prior. It just seems that people are bitter and miserable and there's an underlying malaise. A few people even openly criticizing the CCP/local/central government which 5-7 years ago was completely unheard of.
People who live in China full time - what's your experience? What's happening out there? The macro-indicators seem good and yet everyone seems to be feeling a negative pinch. It just seems very bizarre to me that production/manufacturing and consumption seem to be on the rise and yet, the general atmosphere seems to be the opposite.
top 200 commentsshow all 474
[–]Fit-Historian6156 242 points243 points244 points  (71 children)
I don't live there but I was there late last year and I can attest to the fact that malls felt really empty. 
[–]Cal_Zoned 152 points153 points154 points  (39 children)
Of course, how can malls survive with free same day delivery on Taobao?
[–]BotherBeginning2281 113 points114 points115 points  (31 children)
Yeah, malls are dying/have died all over the world. People's shopping habits have changed, almost certainly forever. This isn't just a China thing.
[–]Diligent-Run6361 53 points54 points55 points  (8 children)
I'm an online shopping addict myself, but recently I was in a nice mall that I was wondering how long they can survive, and then it hit me I would prefer if we could go back to a world without online shopping. It's convenient, often cheaper and provides instant gratification, but the world has also become a less textured, less interesting place. There's something to be said for going around stores and discovering products yourself, the creativity that went in assortment selection and presentation. I'll miss it when most malls and department stores are gone.
[–]extropia 34 points35 points36 points  (1 child)
It's similar to so many of the industries that online tech has revolutionized.   The process is undeniably faster and more convenient and efficient but without the act of manually doing it yourself, it's no longer and exciting and rewarding like it once was.   Going out to rent a movie for example.  It's funny because back then we would've killed to have what we do now but I miss the fun of leaving the house and discussing with your friends what movie seemed good by reading the case and inevitably buying snacks, running into people, walking through a park, etc.  
The in-between stuff and the effort it took made things memorable.  Now every night just blurs into each other because there's no texture or opportunity for randomness.
[–]HautamakiCanada 12 points13 points14 points  (0 children)
Yeah, for most of recent economic history, the overriding unifying goal of all development was to remove friction in all transactions. Now that we have succeeded in doing so in so many ways, we are starting to miss some of that friction, and starting to realize it wasn't all so bad after all.
[–]Hellolaoshi 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
I was in a mall today. I like the idea of actually being able to go into a place and see different options, see and hear other people.
[–]wongl888 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Since Covid, my family in the UK hardly go out shopping to the point that we don’t even go to supermarkets anymore and instead rely on the supermarket to deliver.
There is definitely a big change in shopping habits brought about by the Covid lockdowns.
[–]Prize_Sort5983 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Grass greener and all of that
[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
“Less textured”. Beautiful phrase. I’ll add it to my pocketbook :)
[–]new_will_delete 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
If this were the popular opinion, then the market would have corrected itself, and people would start flooding malls. I only shop in person if the delivery fee is too expensive. 
[–]wraithsith 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
As an autistic person who was always bombarded by the sensory problems within malls, having the option to not have to visit one was a godsend.
[–]scarnegie96 21 points22 points23 points  (10 children)
That’s largely true, strangely enough the big malls in Jakarta are almost always busy.
[–]Repulsive_Dog1067 71 points72 points73 points  (2 children)
Because they have aircon.
[–]Lady_in_the_red-58 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
What is aircon?
[–]elling78 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
AC or aircondition aka cooler temperature than outside.
[–]DannyFlood 38 points39 points40 points  (1 child)
Because in Jakarta they literally have nowhere else to go. It's the third space outside of home and work.
[–]Pitiful-Recover-3747 23 points24 points25 points  (0 children)
Same in Manila. Work, mall or your 10sqm apartment . Where else would a local go? Stand outside and cook?
[–]Polster1 15 points16 points17 points  (0 children)
Same with Thailand where every mall is busy.. Hot Weather and air-conditioning is probably a major factor as well
[–]SuleyGul 14 points15 points16 points  (2 children)
Same here in Australia. Malls are bustling everywhere. Mini malls and mega malls are always full. Go there at 10am on a weekday and parking is hard to find.
[–]amelech 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
Agree. I'm in Brisbane and the Westfield malls are always bustling.
[–]wollflour 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
There are two malls in Northern Virginia (just outside Washington DC) that are so painfully busy at all times I never go. One is perpetually busy with tourists (Pentagon City) and one is busy with locals and business travelers (Tysons).
Hilariously, we do have a "dead except for the food court" mall in Ballston. The other malls have very popular big-name stores, that one doesn't, for some reason.
[–]mentalFee420 -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
Half of the tenants are f&b and most likely only they make consistent business
[–]Fit-Historian6156 17 points18 points19 points  (3 children)
I can't say for anywhere I haven't been but the malls where I am are still pretty busy. I know people talk about brick and mortar stores dying everywhere but at least in Melbourne they're still doing alright in terms of foot traffic. 
[–]mensreaactusrea 5 points6 points7 points  (2 children)
Malls struggle in some areas but in the Wisconsin, Chicago area they are absolutely bustling. Lots of immigrant communities and teens flood the malls around us. People are using Amazon but also people like to get out. It's a nightmare on a Sunday.
[–]Polster1 11 points12 points13 points  (0 children)
Chicago malls have been dying for years. Only mall in Chicagoland area that still gets decent foot traffic is Woodfield. All the other malls are being repurposed with mixed used development where there building apartments and other venues on mall properties like Old Orchard Mall or Golf Mill Mall redevelopment plans.
Most malls in America have been losing large anchor tenants like Macy's, Lord & Taylor, etc. which are drivers of foot traffic in the malls.
[–]Fit-Historian6156 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
Good observation, that's the exact demographic of the people who go to malls in my city too. 
[–]dulcoflex 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
Most malls in India too only work if they have a multi-plex cinema and a food court. Rest of the shops are surviving on impulsive buyers.
[–]PulseDynamo 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
Can we say shopping malls abandoned are a sign of shifts in the country's outlook/fiscal storm incoming?
[–]No-Boysenberry1791 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Yep. Frank Lowy knew this as well when he sold Westfield before COVID.
[–]FetchBlue 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I don’t think so tho, in some countries Malls are lifestyle focused, there’s cafe,fine dining and cinemas opened in malls, and ignoring American ones, most adapted mall have supermarket for groceries and is in walkable distances from apartment flats.
Well Malaysia anyway, we do have dying malls but a lot is either poorly planned new mall or outdated old mall.
[–]Xenofriend4tradevalu 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
In Thailand, shopping malls are full, so many in Bangkok… yet shops and restaurants are all busy
[–]spamalt98 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
This definitely isn't true. In the past year I've been to malls in New Zealand, Australia and the UK and they were all busy as ever, annoyingly packed with people. Uncomfortably busy and I got in and out as quick as I could.
[–]Dear_Chasey_La1n 8 points9 points10 points  (3 children)
That's often said though why isn't revenue increasing for platforms like JD/Alibaba?
How come even supermarkets are struggling like Hema/Aldi and other local ones?
Putting the blame on online sales is only a fraction of reality. Savings are at an all time high, that's all you need to know where money goes. It's not being spend.
And it's showing Shanghai has seen their corporate tax revenue decline for 8 quarters in a row, sometimes double digits. Same time we notice the social insurance/taxes are being claimed far earlier than before. They are also far more hawkish. Personally my tax returns that used to take 1-2 weeks this time took 6 weeks and it's still not finalized.
There are articles how the elder see their retirement cut, how government employees aren't being paid. It's all over bad.
That GDP growth comes from a few sectors, infrastructure and defense and even than, it's still requires a ton of brushing up.
[–]HautamakiCanada 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
I imagine it's because there's no profit margin. The competition is fierce, but also these companies were built on heavy subsidies, free loans, incentives, etc, on the premise that they would both employ a lot of people, and hopefully take over the global marketplace. Earning profits was never really the point, but it means that if the subsidies and so on dry up before global domination was achieved, these companies are in a very rough spot.
[–]Classic-Today-4367 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Taobao and the other marketplaces have huge sales volumes, but commission is comparatively low, they spend billions on buyer coupons and sales, and the government expects / demands they take xx number of new staff every year. Not to mention having to support every campaign the government mounts, usually using their own funds.
[–]Puddingcup9001 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
JD revenue increased 7% in 2024, and is expected to increase 11% in 2025
[–]Wooden-Agency-2653 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
The malls near me (Ningbo) are still packed generally. There's a lot of experience stuff there, and loads of restaurants. Probably about 25% is actual shopping.
[–]Xciv 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
So true. My uncle (who lived for years in Shenzhen and now lives in America) does 80% of his shopping online, and he's a 55 year old man. So think how much more online shopping the 20-somethings engage in regularly.
[–]smibaNetherlands 17 points18 points19 points  (4 children)
When I was in Beijing a few weeks after Chinese new year the malls were relatively busy, but that probably was just because people were off work or had money to spend.
I did find the floors housing the appliance departments to be absolutely deserted though. Like, it was genuinely uncomfortable to walk around as I could hear my every step echo and all the employees waiting in their store looking at me hoping to step inside.
EDIT: Here is a pic I took in one of the busier malls I visited, like, there's people but not many at all: https://i.imgur.com/GTWF7Yz.jpeg
[–]Spiritual_Elk9592 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
That’s a nice looking mall!
[–]wuy3 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
bro, I think I've been to this mall you took the pic from. Where you take the picture is restaurant seating right? It's on the 4th floor and I remember it was hot during the summer. The 4th (top) floor didn't have enough AC to keep it cool so you could really tell the difference in temperature when you went up there.
[–]smibaNetherlands 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Yeah it probably is! It's the 颐堤港购物中心 in Beijing.
This was in the Winter so I didn't notice anything about the temperature, I found it to be rather pleasant
[–]Classic-Today-4367 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
There was a slight bump in buyer confidence around CNY, and it looked like there may be an improvement this year. But, it died out fairly quickly and now everyone is basically saying they don't have any money.
[–]TwelveSixFive 13 points14 points15 points  (1 child)
Malls are dying worldwide. It's not because of recession, it's because thet are a thing of 2000s consumerism. Now with online shopping and immediate delivery, especially in China, they just aren't a match.
That being said, when I went to Haikou and Chongqing this year, mall were crammed full of people, I was blown away. I precisely remember wondering how the hell these mall are so full, given what I said above.
[–]Aggressive_Strike75 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Malls are dying worldwide. Not really. The ones I have been in Europe and Asia were full. Maybe in China.
[–]VegoranItaly 12 points13 points14 points  (0 children)
Honestly it's kinda always been like this, clothing shops in malls are way too expensive. People only go there for AC/Food
[–]Positive-Ad1859 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
Just came back, malls are mostly empty similar to what I see here in the US. But still there are a LOT of tourists everywhere, that makes me wonder if people have adopted different ways to spend money
[–]Hamster_S_Thompson 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
Aren't malls emptying everywhere due to people shopping online? I wouldn't use it as a gauge of economic activity. I can't remember when was the last time I went to the mall in the US.
[–]lolfamy 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
Malls have been dead everywhere even before covid save for a select few popular ones. They're only used for their air conditioning or restaurants. People rarely use them for actual shopping
[–]unamity1 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I was there last year too. All the new big malls were full, especially Joy City Mall
[–]Johnny_Pash 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
Currently residing in Dali, Yunnan. Low tier city of course, lots of tourists come here for the lake and mountains. There are a few malls around, and they seem to be very busy. At least compared to America where the malls are ghost towns.
[–]verticalquandry 1 point2 points3 points  (7 children)
Tbh honest we’re always full but no one bought anything. I swear they’re all money laundry since 2012
[–]Fit-Historian6156 7 points8 points9 points  (3 children)
Tbh I remember being surprised how empty China felt in general. Airports, malls, public parks etc all felt emptier than what I'm used to and my country is several orders of magnitude less populated than China. The only places in China that felt appropriately crowded were tourist sites and roads lol
[–]Wgh555 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
Does make you wonder how accurate the population reports actually are
[–]Fit-Historian6156 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Not really. My country has 26 million, no matter how empty malls are I don't think China's anywhere close to that low. I don't think anecdotal experiences are a very good measure of broad stats like total population count tbh. At best I'd say places being empty would indicate more conservative consumer spending, but then tourist spots are still busy af so I guess it still depends on the good/industry. 
[–]Lady_in_the_red-58 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
What general area are you in?
[–]verticalquandry 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Tier 1-4
[–]Lady_in_the_red-58 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Sorry for my ignorance. I have no idea what that means. I googled it and all I got were data centers. Is that in US? China?
[–]bigbrothero 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
One thing that actually surprised me a lot was how full the malls were. In Nanchang the bigger shopping centres would be PACKED even on a Wednesday or Thursday night. Shenzhen and Shanghai similarly were heaving with people on the weekends, maybe not so much in the weekdays but that’s to be expected.
I have no idea where you guys are getting this, is this more true in lower tier cities?
[–]Fit-Historian6156 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I saw this in Chongqing
[–]Classic-Today-4367 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
My local mall is packed every weekend from midday onwards. Its just people getting lunch / dinner, going to the supermarket or window shopping though.
Weekdays are basically empty apart from the office workers getting cheap meals in the basement level.
The place would close down if they didn't have half a dozen different EV stores paying top dollar for the first floor space and all the restaurants on the top floor.
[–]Mission_Whereas_2033 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I was in China in March, in my opinion the malls were bustling as ever, and that was in a tier 3 city.
[–]jhcamara -1 points0 points1 point  (4 children)
Have you been to America ?
[–]Fit-Historian6156 3 points4 points5 points  (3 children)
Nope
[–]jhcamara 7 points8 points9 points  (2 children)
The malls aren't only empty. They're like ruins now. Abandoned and rotting.
[–]Lady_in_the_red-58 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Not in my area in TN. We don’t have Malls in ruins, unless it is a really bad area.
[–]InsufferableMollusk 152 points153 points154 points  (30 children)
The growth China has seen wasn’t going to last forever. The law of diminishing marginal returns demands that it slow. When economies are industrializing, it always creates the illusion that the explosive relative growth they see is evidence of a ‘better’ system.
I think that perhaps many of these folks were just used to the boom years, and 5% growth doesn’t feel like ‘enough’. Once they fully catch up to the West, they can enjoy 2-3% growth rates—and that’s at the high end. Womp, womp.
[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 42 points43 points44 points  (10 children)
This is true, although I wonder if China is facing the “low-growth, low-birth rates” issue prematurely compared to other developed societies. Its per capita wealth is still much lower than wealthy democracies, yet its birth rates are already at the former’s levels. We might see a brief generation - roughly 20-30 years - of Chinese economic success, before a long drawn-out period where China significantly stagnates due to its population pyramid.
[–]super_humane 27 points28 points29 points  (1 child)
Yes China’s demographic picture and perfect storm lf economic crises (zero covid, local government debt crisis, housing collapse, trade wars) set it up for a 90s Japan style “lost generation,” but on a much larger scale.
[–]IllogicalGrammar 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
And without reaching Japan's wealth level (on a per capita basis, aka most citizens are not wealthy in the same way Japan was when the bubble popped).
[–]Xciv 13 points14 points15 points  (6 children)
I think it's a self-inflicted wound. It's years of one-child-policy bearing fruit, for better and for worse.
For better because it worked. The overpopulation is under control. China is not going to become more crowded than it is now.
The worse is how it effects the economy.
[–]milandina_dogfort 4 points5 points6 points  (3 children)
True but China leads robotics and automation. Lots of dark factories without workers now. Fact is they don't need as many people as before. The west is looking at it incorrectlu as they always do. They look at it like China is a consumption only economy which would mean lower population is lower GDP. And they forget china has about 400m middle class equivalent to US.
[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 13 points14 points15 points  (1 child)
Not sure what you mean by “the west”, as I’m Chinese and I lived in Asia most of my life.
Increased automation does not necessarily imply the economic fallout from demographic collapse will be mitigated. Aging demographics influence things like pensions, which mean the smaller younger generation in the next 30 years will face higher strain from supporting its larger retirees. Japan is an excellent example of a highly automated society but with stagnant economy and strained pensions system.
[–]FumblingBool 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Older people don't buy cool new stuff. They don't spend money like young people.
There's also a double whammy with automation. Less consumers => less demand. More automation => less labor required to meet demand. Less Labor -> less people employed. Less consumers + More automation -> dramatic reduction in employment. Reduced employment -> Less Consumers.
In every labor revolution, there is transitory period where people don't have jobs and are not happy about it.
[–]TrucThanhHeart 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Middle class is relative to the respective countries; purchasing power is not the same or even close
[–]moehideII -1 points0 points1 point  (1 child)
Do some critical thinking and research. Too much emphasis is put on the 'one child policy'. If you simply look at the TFR you will see it was rapidly dropping prior to that policy. Furthermore, comparing the projected TFR trend with similar countries trends with population migrating to the cities, then you'll notice that 'policy' really didn't do anything. The TFR and low population was already on the course. To finally nail this home to all the derp derp copy copy... that policy has been removed, yet TFR continues to drop.
[–]Xciv 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Yeah it continues to drop because it caused an entire generation or two of extremely skewed gender ratios. This is bad for both men and women because it creates an environment of hyper competition for men and women get pursued by way too many aggressive men with no experience in relationships so they come off as awkward and undesireable.
No wonder people aren't getting married these days.
[–]jredful 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Chinas work force is already shrinking and there are some respected demographers that believe India overtook China in population already almost 20 years ago.
A University of Wisconsin demographer/OBGYN researcher suggested in 2019 that the Chinese population was likely overstated by a hundred million people.
Even if it’s hard to get behind just such a wild overcount, it is indicative of likely some level of over counting and when talking about the sheer scale of the Chinese population, overcounting by millions may not be a bad claim.
China isn’t going to topple over into nothing, Japan is still a wildly successful country and has been dealing with this outcome for almost 40 years.
But as the CCP continues to propagate false narratives or cant appropriately count its population or economic growth this disparity will grow.
[–]Dear_Chasey_La1n 25 points26 points27 points  (9 children)
What does 5% GDP growth mean if I'm not seeing it in my pocket?
Employees haven't seen a salary bump in years, heck we have staff knocking at our doors looking for a new job because their old job either cut their salary or they got fired.
These growth numbers are great if a society as a whole reaps the benefits from it. But reality is, everybody is struggling, life is hard even in the big city, it's extra hard if you are young.
On the other hand the West sure we don't see these great growth numbers, but most people still can live a comfortable life. Heck they can get fired and still live without worries. I would rather be a broke fuck in the EU than in China.
[–]Icy-Tour8480 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
You shouldn't be that sure that you want to come to EU. Here, people are afraid of populists that bankrupt economies, or of russian invasion.People are having less and less children because of falling standard of living and increasing economic uncertainty. And inflation is rather high.
[–]Puddingcup9001 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
A lot of people are feeling it in their pocket. mostly in poorer regions that are uplifted.
[–]SnowboardMan63 0 points1 point2 points  (6 children)
I live in the US and we have 2-3% GDP growth for the last 40 years, and no increase to our salary the whole time. Chinas just beginning to go down the same direction.
[–]Whiskey_and_Rii 1 point2 points3 points  (5 children)
This is simply not true
[–]SnowboardMan63 0 points1 point2 points  (4 children)
come on dude, just take 5 seconds and google it before coming on here and saying it isnt true. Real wages havent gone up since Reagan tricked everyone with his trickle down policy. It's well documented. Unless you're part of the 1%, you haven't had increased buying power for decades now, most people have decreased buying power compared to pre covid
[–]Whiskey_and_Rii 1 point2 points3 points  (3 children)
You might want to review whatever data you're looking at. On a real basis we've seen long term wage increases over the last 40 years (1984-2024).
[–]SnowboardMan63 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
Maybe thats including the 1%? for the bottom 99%, wages have certainly stagnated.
[–]Whiskey_and_Rii 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
"Employed full time: Median usual weekly real earnings: Wage and salary workers: 16 years and over"
The key word is median.. so the top 1% would have very little impact on the trend line.. I think you're thinking of a different measure called average where the top 1% could skew the line.
I see your link and I think it's showing charts without actually explaining their data sources and work they've done to create certain trend lines. I agree that wages haven't kept up with worker productivity and that inequality has gotten worse. But I think your original premise is deeply flawed.
[–]SnowboardMan63 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
No need to be patronizing, the sources are listed by the charts. After examining your graph again, I believe that one has some flaws with it. You're telling me during the 2008 recession and the 2020 COVID recession we saw a dramatic increase in wages and salary? Somethings not right in that graph for sure. Don't come talking about my graphs when yours is telling people that workers make more money during a recession 🤣🤣
Edit: It looks like the survey that tracks workers wages drops them if they get fired or laid off, thus artificially boosting the perceived wages while ignoring those who lost their jobs and are unemployed. If you fired the bottom 99% let them starve to death and only kept the top one percent, according to this chart it would look like America's wages jumped a million percent in a quarter! This is why singular charts should not be used to form opinions, data always needs context and should be viewed with a broad perspective!
[–]Chriswuk 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
"Once they fully catch-up" is a strong assumption. I think it's more likely that per capita incomes won't catch up.
[–]WaterElectronic5906 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
China has stopped releasing most economic data. Its economy is not slowing. It is collapsing. This time for real.
[–]MapNas -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
How so?...
[–]FumblingBool 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
'They can enjoy 2-3% growth'. That's a very dangerous assumption as typically 2-3% growth depends on a growing population which is not the case in China. Currently, every year there will be less consumers and workers in china than the previous year.
'5% growth doesn't feel like enough'. A lot of debt instruments are designed about growth expectations and when growth slows, this can cause a catastrophic effect.
[–]JonnyBGoodF 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
I would add that it's harder to maintain infrastructure than it is to build it. China will have a hard time, like every other country that ever existed, keeping what it has running smoothly. 
[–]lau1247 2 points3 points4 points  (3 children)
The economy is one aspect of it. I think the other that many people don't talk about is that many people died during COVID and those populations aren't being replaced as fast because it cost a lot to bring up a child (and it takes time before they are productive to the economy). So what happens when they are not being replaced?? That's why many places seems more "empty" as the OP alluded to.
[–]meridian_smith 4 points5 points6 points  (1 child)
All those who died from COVID would mostly be 60 and older. If anything it would balance out the demographic inverted pyramid a bit better.
[–]uniqueaddress 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I think that was plan, but it didn’t kill enough old timers
[–]Lady_in_the_red-58 -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
We didn’t have huge portions of the population die of Covid. I wonder why you did.
[–]Late-Masterpiece-452 82 points83 points84 points  (47 children)
Macroeconomic indicators (such as GDP growth) are a bad measure of Happiness and content of the population. For example, if the state decides to spend a lot more on the military, GDP goes up but general welfare may not. Thank you for sharing your impressions. I think that local governments in China have, while building a lot of valuable infrastructure, also misallocated plenty of capital to building excess housing and even too many rail lines that are underused as well as dead malls and the lot. The bill for this is coming due now, unfortunately.
[–]therealwench[S] 41 points42 points43 points  (38 children)
Rail is something that has really intrigued me actually.
I took a high speed train from Beijing and I noticed that it often stopped off at random places, small towns/even villages where nobody got on and nobody got off.
Are these lines completely unprofitable?
[–]eightbyeight 53 points54 points55 points  (21 children)
Only a few lines are profitable, Shanghai to Beijing being one of them iirc. The problem with Chinese high speed rail is they overbuild hsr and didn’t build normal rail which could be used for logistics.
[–]Harsel 31 points32 points33 points  (11 children)
Rail isn't made with direct profit in mind. It's made to accelerate economic development and indirectly get profit from increased taxes from population
[–]SuccessfulPres 28 points29 points30 points  (9 children)
It’s weird people care so much about profitability of rail but not roads, and then simultaneously everyone hates toll roads
[–]Money_Adagio6541 4 points5 points6 points  (4 children)
Because roads can carry both passengers aswell as cargo while hsrs can't, all while being way more expensive than building roads which you have to any way.
[–]SuccessfulPres -2 points-1 points0 points  (3 children)
In order for roads to be useful you need to build cars and trucks. Cars are extremely expensive, the cost of low speed rail for cargo and HSR for passengers will be cheaper than the overall cost of cars and trucks and roads combined… even more so if you include the economic cost of higher fatality rates.
[–]Money_Adagio6541 2 points3 points4 points  (2 children)
Illogical arguement all the cars and trucks are not bought by government and the production of vehicles is huge sector in the economy. You can make a road where ever you want(relatively) and for far lower costs, while hsrs and cargo rail need massive amounts of goods and people to just break even on costs.
[–]Lady_in_the_red-58 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
True and you lose the economic growth for the country which it needs to continue to provide public services.
[–]SuccessfulPres 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
There’s something called induced demand which can be good for tons of reasons.
Also money is fungible, all that matters is money in the pocket for other spending at the end of the day. If the car payment is exerting pressure on a household, they would have been much better off without a car payment and with slightly higher taxes instead.
[–]boringexplanation 1 point2 points3 points  (3 children)
Because roads are sustainably funded by gas and registration taxes. If people don’t use roads, they don’t get funded- you can’t say the same thing about rail usage.
There are zero places where passenger rail is funded by just the passenger fares. I say this as someone who LOVES high speed rail
[–]SuccessfulPres 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
No? Road construction and road maintenance requires general funds all the time. And requires police salaries for speed enforcement etc.
There are tons of costs that make roads a huge net loser. Which is fine, it’s a service, but nobody offers that grace to rail.
[–]boringexplanation 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Page 27- Californias transit team gets 7.25% of its funding from general use funds. Okay- not literally 100% but that’s a vast majority of funds coming from road related travel. If anything, those gas taxes are paying for roads AND subsidizing public transportation as an extra.
It’s not really that unreasonable to ask train fares to take a larger proportion of paying for itself. Billion dollar projects do have to be sustainable in the long term.
[–]SuccessfulPres 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
You’re ignoring the police traffic budget and first responder budget…
[–]Wyzrobe 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
Their High Speed Rail system also is deliberately over-built as a hedge against potential disruptions in their access to the commercial aircraft supply from the US and Europe. They also have COMAC as another backup, but their domestic airline industry is still a work in progress.
[–]verticalquandry 12 points13 points14 points  (5 children)
They have existing slow trains system already. They don’t need another
[–]onespiker 10 points11 points12 points  (4 children)
He said there wasn't enough slow trains especially for logistics not that there aren't any.
[–]Ronnie_SoaK_ -1 points0 points1 point  (3 children)
Just because they said it, doesn't make it true.
[–]onespiker 2 points3 points4 points  (2 children)
Well its true though. Considering the current rail transport for logistics has gone down ( they removed some for highspeed train). And hasn't built on it nearly as much. While the amount of goods that need transporting has gone up massively.
They are already at peak capacity and now a shit ton is on trucks instead.
[–]Ronnie_SoaK_ 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
In 2013, the railway freight transportation turnover only accounted for less than 2% of total social freight transportation turnover in China, and the proportion increased to 14.7% in 2023.
Seems like a different trend to the one you're suggesting.
[–]onespiker 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Social freight and logical freight are different things like i said. The upgraded for trains were good for large part of country but in some parts that's less so since there the highspeed train definitely wasn't needed and is just an enormous expense. That now limit the logistical capacity of other transportation.
[–]Macaroon-Agile 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
中国的口号是,要想富,先修路。^_^
[–]Important-Working-71 -4 points-3 points-2 points  (0 children)
From where HSR get debt from ?
[–]DaoNight23 17 points18 points19 points  (7 children)
they are not just unprofitable, they are massively in debt.
passenger rail isnt profitable almost anywhere in the world, but cargo offsets some of the cost. however, most chinese railways werent built to support heavy cargo traffic. without cargo income, the railways are absolutely hemorrhaging money everywhere. all those fast passenger trains look good in propaganda videos, tho, and apparently that was the main motivation to build, instead of economic incentives.
[–]CyberiaCalling 0 points1 point2 points  (5 children)
Better than spending trillions on war I suppose
[–]DaoNight23 7 points8 points9 points  (4 children)
are you implying they are not spending trillions on the military?
[–]CyberiaCalling 4 points5 points6 points  (2 children)
That was kinda what I was getting at, yeah. I guess my broader, more important point is that at the very least 美国 has a very different military spending (and, especially, destructive military spending) to infrastructure ratio compared to 中国. And if a country were to spend that much money on things where profit isn't the primary motivator then spending that kind of money on infrastructure is clearly and unambiguously more moral than destructive "defense" spending.
[–]boringexplanation 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
A lot of the US infrastructure spending after World War II was justified using military reasons such as the Interstate Highway system- which ended up being 99% civilian use anyway.
[–]CyberiaCalling 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I'll definitely give you the highway system! That's a solid example of infrastructure investment that used military preparedness as an impetus. I'd also give you the space race in general. But I would still argue that even if you switch the infrastructure-military stuff to the infrastructure side the ratio is still not ideal. I decided to look up the actual numbers and with all that in mind the US government spending on infrastructure vs the military seems to actually be about even (I'm honestly a bit surprised by that). And the Chinese government spends a little better than a 3:1 ratio for infrastructure vs military spending. Still not ideal but it's like comparing a deadlocked political race with a race where one person has a supermajority of the votes.
[–]jayclizard2001 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
No they are not. China fought no wars for 45 years, while US spent 8-10 trillions on wars since 9/11. US military budget is 3-4 times of that of China’s.
[–]The__Other 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
Probably to make way for an incoming or another train to pass. This is a standard procedure in rail transport.
[–]kra73ace comment score below threshold-8 points-7 points-6 points  (6 children)
Hmm, why would a train stop somewhere if no one has brought a ticket for or from there. You'd think it's smart enough to know that ...
Disclosure: I drive everywhere so no idea how trains work. Never been to China or on a high-speed train.
[–]20dogsUnited Kingdom 8 points9 points10 points  (0 children)
You should try taking the train. It's a nice break from driving!
[–]Shalmanese 8 points9 points10 points  (0 children)
People rely on the train getting to a station at the designated time to get on. Not stopping at any station doesn't make the journey any faster so you might as well stop even if nobody gets on or off.
[–]Born-Requirement2128 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
The driver gets out for a quick cigarette break
[–]SumoSummer 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
You're not wrong, when I was back in September we were told we'd have a long stop at one place so people could smoke. If you get on the carriage you've got to dodge guys bumpuffing - surely that doesn't happen in any other hsr lines around the world??  
[–]Lady_in_the_red-58 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
My guess is its the same as a bus stop. A bus stops in case someone wants to ride at the last min.
[–]BogleheadsH8Prenups -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
My guess is the train conductor is a bro that gives everyone a smoke break opportunity.
[–]purplenyellowrose909 10 points11 points12 points  (3 children)
China's also a BIG country. Just because things seem meh in Beijing and Shanghai doesn't mean there aren't boom towns elsewhere. Beijing and Shanghai have both lost population every year since 2020. People are moving elsewhere in China. The local economies of these mega cities are contracting.
Cities like Guangzhou, Shenzhen, and Hangzhou are growing faster than Beijing and Shanghai are shrinking. These cities may be the ones driving the 5% national growth and locals there may be really optimistic about the future.
You'd get the same thing in the US. Large cities like New York or Chicago are contracting and locals say the economy is terrible and the government is corrupt there. The Midwest in particular is largely stagnant population wise and flips political parties every few years for the sake of trying something new.
But cities in the south like Oklahoma City, Dallas, Nashville, and Miami are absolute boom towns right now and locals have a lot of optimism and faith in their local parties.
[–]onespiker 11 points12 points13 points  (0 children)
There is also the reality that the 5% number is decided a head of time and they dont show much umbers that can actually be used to support it.
They have stopped publishing most numbers that can be used to verify. They likely grown but at 5% is questionable its likely been slower than that.
[–]Lady_in_the_red-58 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Also Austin Tx, even Chattanooga,
[–]spamalt98 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
There's no way china has 5% growth, given the state of the world. Their numbers didn't marry up with the experience of the rest of the world through or after COVID, and they had a crazier lockdown than most.
[–]Straight-Sky-311 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
And also corrupt officials have put these funds somehow into their own bank accounts.
[–]dictionizzle 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
even payments for interest on government debt are increasing gdp.
EDIT: this statement is incorrect, explained below in detail. i'm keeping it to prevent someone else has the false knowledge like i have.
[–]kurokame101 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
Interest payments on government debt are financial transfers, not payments for goods or services. They’re payments from the government to bondholders — often just shifting money from one party to another within the economy. Since nothing is being produced, they don’t count toward GDP.
[–]Born-Requirement2128 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Interesting, China has had a massive military build up in the past years, maybe that explains all of the GDP growth?
[–]Hydramus89 14 points15 points16 points  (3 children)
Yeah was there in April around Jiangsu and Shanghai. Lots of unfinished infra or closed shops now. The only reply I really got was 经济不好 ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯
I hope your family is ok though. Mine is but I do worry about everyone else.
[–]mwaddmeplz 3 points4 points5 points  (2 children)
Me too having been in HK and the mainland last month
[–]Ozymandias0023 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
Man, how is HK? Last time I was there was 2019 just before COVID and during the protests. Have they come out of it all ok or is it a shell or its former self?
[–]mwaddmeplz 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
The economy fell harder and is recovering but did so at a slower pace than other countries
It looks the same but it is much more of a Chinese city than an international one
[–]vorko_76 30 points31 points32 points  (6 children)
Things are relative. China used to have 10%+ digit growth for many years, meaning that even if growth didnt benefit everyone evenly, everyone benefited from it.
Now with 5% growth, only a small portion of the population sees it. And the rest suffers from the slow down.
[–]D0nath 9 points10 points11 points  (5 children)
The question is, is there really a 5% growth these days? Or is it just a published goal which they magically achieve according to the government?
[–]vorko_76 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
It is a published goal magically achieved, but most experts however consider that its probably closer to 4.2%, which is still very good.
[–]Classic-Today-4367 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Regardless what the goal is, it s magically hit every year. Whether that be by the central government throwing money at the problem, or the provinces going further into debt. Or just the ever-so-slight massaging of numbers at every level, which means the final figure is always "just right".
[–]NoIndication8655 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
the growth is definitely real, slight over or under 4%-6%, exports went up in double digits, so did energy consumption, these numbers are easy to validate externally
[–]D0nath 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
Meanwhile their construction industry collapsed.
[–]NoIndication8655 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
it's collapsed 5 years ago buddy
[–]Aggressive-Tart1650 132 points133 points134 points  (25 children)
I don’t know if I would call this bizarre. For instance, Macroeconomics look “good” here in Canada. Government keeps insisting unemployment is going down, but the people I talk to in my industry complain about not being able to get a job. Infrastructure is also crumbling but then again that’s just the norm in Canada. My personal take: the world economy is readjusting and everyone is getting hurt. Uncertainty, increased trade barriers are spooking companies and people which in turn will harm everything. Shift to AI and large scale automation will also put more pressure on employment specifically.
[–]Hailene2092 39 points40 points41 points  (4 children)
Government keeps insisting unemployment is going down
I know basically nothing about Canada's economics, but I just saw a headline that said unemployment had hit 7%. That seems high to me?
[–]suomi-8 19 points20 points21 points  (0 children)
It’s even worse in the city of Toronto specifically
[–]Background-Rub-3017 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Because of the relax immigration policy after Covid. They are tightening it now.
[–]Ok_Power1067 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
It's bad. I was in Chinatown Vancouver over the weekend and there's so many homeless. It's also the first time I saw a man inject drug into their body.  veryone we talked to said Richmond is the new Chinatown. 
[–]BillyBeeGone 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Yeah Canada is at an unemployment high since the 1990s, OP doesn't know what he's talking about. But if you are American Unemployment is calculated differently (eg takes into account farm workers) so the unemployment rate is always higher than the States naturally
[–]Narrow-Ad-7856 22 points23 points24 points  (0 children)
Macros are NOT good in Canada, and have been on a steady downtrend for 10 years.
[–]spaeti1312 14 points15 points16 points  (0 children)
Not worth debating and I mean this with respect, but I disagree with this statement: 'Macroeconomics look “good” here in Canada'
[–]bfffca 14 points15 points16 points  (11 children)
Feels the same in the UK and Europe in general. With (way) worse economies I would assume compare to China.
Everything is more expensive, it is harder to get a job, salaries went down or are not rising, malls (or pubs or bars) are often quite empty. Cities that are not majors can feel dead, infrastructure is crumbling.
On the one hand it is nice to hear it is not only the case here. On the other hand, if you can't have good opportunities in China where the hell are you going to find them?
[–]ThrowRA_sfjdkjoasdof 8 points9 points10 points  (9 children)
I agree that the economical situation in EU/UK is not good, but generally the salaries have not decreased. Even if you take real wages (i.e. salary change adjusted to inflation), there are like 3-4 countries where it decreased, whereas in the majority it actually increased (see https://www.euronews.com/business/2025/05/12/where-did-real-wages-rise-and-fall-the-most-in-europe-in-2024). To the other commenter...immigration does not cause bad economic performance. There are multiple factors I guess, but in Europe, it's perhaps the very high energy prices are the biggest culprit. Which has been especially shit since the Russians started the war.
[–]True-Entrepreneur851 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
Not only the war but also a trend to reduce dependence on nuclear power
[–]Lady_in_the_red-58 -1 points0 points1 point  (1 child)
Why so?
[–]True-Entrepreneur851 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
To please this new trend of green power. See what happened in Fukushima.
[–]Lady_in_the_red-58 -1 points0 points1 point  (5 children)
I disagree that immigration doesn’t hurt economic performance. Countries are using the tax base of their citizens to cover needs of the immigrants. In the US its hospital costs, they give out free phones, subsidize housing, small businesses. We spend billions and billions on immigrants.
[–]DonQuigleone 0 points1 point2 points  (4 children)
Immigrants are almost always young working adults, and put more in per person then the existing citizens
I live in Dublin, extremely high immigration, especially from Africa, India and South America. 
I'm not seeing a single brown skinned person with grey hair and wrinkles. 
[–]Puddingcup9001 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
Data pretty clearly shows that immigrants from Africa and Middle east are a drain on the tax base. With often very high unemployment and much higher levels of crime. Here is an article from the economist with data on this from Denmark
[–]DonQuigleone 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
Last I checked, they'd have a very hard time getting any benefits and they can't even get a visa if they don't have a job. 
[–]Puddingcup9001 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Last I checked the data shows otherwise.
[–]DonQuigleone 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I guess yours and mine disagree.
What I do know is that HSE would fall apart without migrant labour. 
[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
There is broad truth this is a general trend. But these are symptoms of underlying structural issues in European/Chinese economies and it’s different in Europe and China.
For China it is the diversion of wealth from the household to fuel government expenditure and the propping of key industries; the property crisis and local government debt; the trade war etc..
For Europe, there is a general lack of competitiveness in manufactured exports, and serious immigration problems.
[–]meridian_smith 5 points6 points7 points  (1 child)
Infrastructure is old in Canada. My city has to spend billions to gradually replace all the 100 + year old sewage infrastructure. (So our water bills and property taxes go up to pay for it). China is just starting to come to the point where some things are reaching end of their life. .. and many Chinese infrastructure has much shorter life than Canadian infrastructure. But in China it is almost all new. Also China is going to have to increase taxes somewhere if they want to keep ahead of crumbling infrastructure. Introducing nation wide property taxes is a likely start.
[–]Lady_in_the_red-58 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I have read there is talk of that.
[–]Super-Base- 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
In no way is the government insisting unemployment is down in Canada.
[–]soyeahiknow 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Same in the USA. Unemployment is steady low and we added 139000 more jobs last month. But all of my friends have been saying it's tougher to get a job. Usually taking months more.
[–]randomguy506 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Givernment dont insist unemployment going down, they just release stat saying its going up…
[–]Prize_Sort5983 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
That's not true. Economist have been saying we are in a recession or heading into one since the Mango tariffs. I don't know where you get your news from.
[–]D0nath 22 points23 points24 points  (7 children)
I also travel to China every few years and have been here 3 times in the last year. I also see many touristy infrastructure surprisingly empty. Huge restaurants are completely empty peak hours on a weekend. Chongqing airport feels like a ghost airport.
My interpretation was that the infrastructure was built for the golden weeks when the whole country travels. It's just oversized for a regular weekend.
On the other hand I don't see any cranes, anything being built at the moment and that kinda resonates with the news: the Chinese construction industry is in ruins. China is ready, overbuilt, they don't need more infrastructure for a while. But what happens with the former workers of this industry?
[–]meridian_smith 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
The former workers in the industry will be needed (at least half of them) to maintain all this infrastructure that was built. . . However I don't see there being any money for maintenance. Especially when nobody is paying much in property taxes or municipal taxes. Taxes will have to go up bigtime in China.
[–]Classic-Today-4367 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
Average age of construction workers was late 40s last time I saw the numbers. Is probably higher now, especially as younger generations refuse to do manual labor that built all those cities in the space of a couple of decades.
Reality is the construction industry would have run out of personnel if the industry kept growing at the pace it was. Now, the older guys can retire back to their villages and the smaller, better educated workers can do the maintenance.
[–]D0nath 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Is it viable to retire at the age of 40-50? I know the saving culture in China, but did they really earn that well to achieve that?
[–]Classic-Today-4367 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
More an example of being forced out of the industry than wanting to retire.
A lot of the construction workers I see coming off sites or traveling between sites on the subway would be in the late 50s or older. While they probably don't get much in the way of a pension, especially considering most are rural hukou, they usually do have a house and a tiny pice of land to farm back home.
[–]coldstone87[🍰] 20 points21 points22 points  (4 children)
I don’t know. But the situation of India is almost the same. Which is surprising. Extremely surprising to be honest. Its literally a situation of jobless growth here too
[–]Tango-Down-167 11 points12 points13 points  (0 children)
China export products, India export services so when global market is down it impacts both goods and services, maybe at a slightly rate.
[–]Money_Adagio6541 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
How is it surprising?
[–]Familiar_Stable_2147 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
India has had some of the fastest economic growth in the world for several years now. That's why it's surprising he doesn't feel the growth.
[–]coldstone87[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
my view was Chinese are super rich, with per capita 5 times that of India & a development focussed Government.
800 million Indians on the other hand are dependent on Govt handouts for even basic needs like food.
[–]spectre401 19 points20 points21 points  (6 children)
I tend to keep my ears to the ground in China due to work so I'll attempt to explain some of your observations using my own observations and understanding of the Chinese economy. Please bare with me as this may be a little long winded and you've brought up a lot of points.
Everyone complaining that there is no money to be made.
I've been hearing this a lot, varying from high net worth business owners to manufacturers all the way to small shop owners. The high net worth individuals are all looking for a way to immigrate due to perceived political risk after the debacles of covid and the likes of Jack Ma.
Smaller privateer manufacturers tend to focus of lower end manufacturing which China has been attempting to shift away from recently. Their mainly export/Taobao/Pingduoduo focused and have seen decline as larger manufacturers have moved factories to places like Vietnam and Bangladesh for export markets to profit off lower wages. Domestic consumers on the other hand have been more focused on more quality goods with brand names of late (especially domestic brands names with a reputation for quality) due to economic progress. The market for these manufacturers are still there, they're just slowly diminishing.
Funnily enough, those who are comfortable tend to be middle managers of large companies and the civil sector. They don't have much of a mortgage if one at all, have parents who are retired with a pension and their own accommodation, and know their net wealth is tied mainly to their Chinese real estate holdings which will not translate well to a move overseas. Their income may not be growing as quickly as they used to but their costs aren't really growing either so they're pretty content.
Local Government is broke
The local governments of China are limited in their incomes while being recognised for their economic output. Most taxes go directly to the central government while local governments are left to find their own way to make income to uphold their infrastructure and services. This led to massive schemes of local government financial vehicles to take on loans from banks in order to work on infrastructure to show GDP growth as most local government leaders are differentiated on such a metric within the party. They also relied heavily on land right sales to fund their own governments. With the recent collapse of the housing bubble within China, these land sales have basically stopped yet repayments still need to be made on the existing financial vehicles so money is very tight on these 3rd tier and lower local governments.
local market prices hasn't seem to have increased
I'm guessing this is due to demand and supply, as people have shifted onto larger cities, demand has fallen so the prices have stayed flat. Prices in growing cities have definitely increased around 10-20% since covid.
Extra tutoring since the age of 6-8, forcing them to learn a musical instrument because everyone else is,
Tutoring has been banned by the central government and thus this industry has shifted underground with school teachers and 1on1 tuition causing rising costs. Musical instruments are different, I'm guessing most parents didn't have the option of learning a musical instrument growing up and living vicariously through their children? or something about not losing to other families?
Edit: Part 2 in replies
[–]spectre401 15 points16 points17 points  (0 children)
Part 2
Shopping malls are all empty.
With the drastic rise of online culture in China and the massive home delivery logistics in place, people have just found it cheaper and easier to stay at home. There are also trends where newer malls tend to be more popular and this older malls tend to languish and diminish. Most malls expect most of their income from local foot traffic these days as driving and parking costs are substantial and tends to detract from the experience due to traffic problems.
BYD 
I think your experience is due to 3 differing points.
  1. I presume your relatives in existing car industries work in traditional internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles. These industries are starting to feel the rising pressure of EVs against their own industry and thus is developing distaste for EVs as a whole. This happens just like how taxi drivers hate Uber drivers.
  2. BYD was traditionally seen as a trash brand in China, especially when they were making ICE vehicles. They were however one of the first to pivot towards hybrids in China and made leaps and bounds in battery tech which the average consumer would not see
  3. North East China is a very cold climate and is extremely bad in terms of performance for EVs due to the cold.
This is just my two cents on the economy of China, what I see is a shift towards larger corporations, a consolidation of sorts in the economy. A move towards a capitalist US economic model (with Chinese characteristics of course).
[–]Sparklymon 0 points1 point2 points  (4 children)
Have you ever visited Japan?
[–]spectre401 2 points3 points4 points  (3 children)
yes, I have, why do you ask?
[–]Sparklymon -1 points0 points1 point  (2 children)
What tourist areas in Japan have you visited? What cities did you go to in Japan?
[–]spectre401 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
Most of the usual, Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto, Sapporo, etc.
[–]Sparklymon 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
That’s wonderful
[–]Miserable_Bag7924 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
I work in the food and beverage industry in a tier 1 city. You can definitely feel the economic issues in my industry. Lots of places closing, laying off their veteran management and marketing teams due to their high salaries and being desperate for new outside financing.
People just aren't going out and spending like they used to. Instead of dinner 5 or 6 times a week, they are now going out maybe twice a week. Everyone talks about the economy all the time. This wasn't the case for the first decade I lived here. Even during COVID, people seem to be pretty optimistic until things went to shit. Even then, there was belief that things would get back on track once the restrictions were lifted but now everyone seems so defeated.
This has also led to people being more tense in every day situations. I bike about 20km a day and now see at least one road rage incident a day.
[–]HautamakiCanada 7 points8 points9 points  (1 child)
I don't live in China any more but still talk to my friends there regularly, and get the same kinds of reports. I agree with the word "bizarre". It's bizarre looking at Western news reports and general social media sentiment that China is absolutely eating America's lunch and talking to actual Chinese people, many of whom are in a real position to know, who are extremely bearish on China's economic prospects.
[–]The_Redoubtable_Dane 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
In the USA, things are still going really well for the elite, but those financial gains are decreasingly trickling down to the majority. At the same time, Trump's tariff policies and general mismanagement are almost inevitably going to cause a recession.
In reality, everyone everywhere in the world are objectively doing better than at any time before in history, but there seems to be a mismatch between our current expectations for the immediate future and the realistic outlook we've got.
Only a few small countries are truly peaking at this moment, such as Switzerland, Denmark, Singapore, etc., but these economies also won't be able to continue their respective booms if both the USA and China enter a recession.
I genuinely don't think China is that much worse off than the USA is, but I think there is a huge cultural difference where Chinese tend to be pessimistic, whereas Americans are famously optimistic. For example, Americans still widely believe that the USA is the land of opportunity, although the country ranks rather poorly on the metric of social mobility.
[–]do2g 16 points17 points18 points  (1 child)
Real estate was a house of cards that would inevitably fail. It was buoyed by speculators and flippers that took on insane DTI ratios, thinking it would never end.
Manufacturing experienced a race to the bottom and has cannibalized itself to razor thin margins - the tariffs blew a hole in the ship and it’s taking on water. My understanding is that they’re booking products that are in containers, regardless of whether or not they’re actually delivered.
I doubt they’ll see a real 5% growth this year. Looks like we may see a regime change at the next plenum - hopefully things will improve.
[–]Jdub_3HK 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I don’t see a regime change can happen without a revolution.
[–]AbsoIution 8 points9 points10 points  (0 children)
Malls are weird, my local one is always packed, there's another huge one but everyone ignored it for the central one, you can't eat at most of the restaurants in the mall at dinner time without taking a ticket because they are packed.
I live in a small city and the part is quite affluent, most cars are new, the apartment complexes are very nice, living here makes it feel like everyone has so much disposable income
[–]Miss-Zhang1408 7 points8 points9 points  (2 children)
Yeah, we are in an economic depression; everything is getting worse; all the people around me feel miserable, most young people I know can not find jobs, and the real unemployment rates are probably insane. The government just rigged the data to make it look good.
[–]Outrageous_Body1614 -2 points-1 points0 points  (1 child)
很多年轻人都能找到工作,有的工资都不低了,也有的不理想但也不至于完全找不到。你找哪个行业的?
[–]Jdub_3HK 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
剛畢業的年輕人失業率超出50%之後,政府就沒有再公布過這個數據,你覺得為什麼呢?
[–]marcopoloman 17 points18 points19 points  (12 children)
Everything looks good when you hear reports generally. It isnt just China or the US, it's everywhere in the world. There are no places booming in the world. It's the illusion of growth when at best it is just treading water.
People always overextend themselves when times are good and dont save and plan for bad times. Then when the bad times comes everyone lives off borrowed money.
[–]Comfortable_Wafer_40 13 points14 points15 points  (1 child)
The difference is that in the US it publicly known that the previous quarter we had negative GDP growth
[–]Mysterious-Track-276 -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
And chinese previous quarter growth is not public?
[–]Dragon2906 -2 points-1 points0 points  (3 children)
In China there are more than enough savings
[–]Virtual-Alps-2888 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
The savings do not reflect Chinese household thriftiness but the relatively low income-to-GDP output value produced compared to OECD countries. Most of said value is diverted to state and key industries to fuel government expenditure and industrial innovative edge. That’s why the Chinese households save so much, and consumption being low. The opposite was true during America’s late 20th century growth: there was high consumption and middling savings.
[–]Tango-Down-167 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
A lot of so called saving are in real estate. Sure cash in banks too but the banks are holding on to these saving for their dear life.
[–]marcopoloman -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
Not recently from what I've seen all over.
[–]Important-Working-71 -2 points-1 points0 points  (4 children)
I won't say boming   But in my country ( india ) There is pretty good growth 
[–]marcopoloman 2 points3 points4 points  (3 children)
India has no where to go but up.
[–]SecretaryNo6911 -1 points0 points1 point  (2 children)
Will never get tired of shitting on India.
[–]marcopoloman 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
India shits on itself. Could dominate the world if they tossed out a handful of customs that keep them down
[–]SecretaryNo6911 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Their food is amazing, but their culture is shit.
[–]EffectiveBee9184 25 points26 points27 points  (32 children)
Interesting, but I see thriving shopping malls all over (as an expat who lives here). Most Chinese I know have disposable income to have a couple of domestic holidays each year and to invest in Chinese stocks. However, I have limited Chinese Language skills so it would be difficult for me to get to the truth of what most people feel.
One friend, for example, earns around 28,000 a month which is up from three years ago when he was on 24. He is in business consulting, with a major in English, so he is nowhere near the top 10%. His kids are in public schools and two extra curricular activities each week without any cutbacks needed. This is in Shenzhen on one income.
[–]therealwench[S] 35 points36 points37 points  (31 children)
Which city if you don't mind me asking?
I walked around practically every major mall in central Shanghai/Beijing (looking to buy a vape haha) and every single one was pretty desolate.
28,000 is a very high salary. Sorry but the only people I know who earn that much are foreigner expats, TEFL teachers and people who take money under the table.
I have family who are Civil Servants, in quite senior positions in local governments and they "officially" don't make anywhere close to that.
Have another family who is a QA Manager at BMW, with 50 people who report to her and she makes 12,000 RMB a month.
[–]y2so 10 points11 points12 points  (0 children)
What time and which day of the week did you walk around the empty malls?
That could be an important detail
[–]One-Hearing2926 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
There are some shopping malls that are more popular than others. When I go out with my wife to the bigger ones in Beijing it's always super packed, even at 3PM you need to queue up for 1 hour at restaurants to eat... Stores are all full, need to queue up at the cabins to try on the clothes. Go to Solana, Xidan, Huiju shopping malls, always super crowded.
[–]dripboi-store 5 points6 points7 points  (5 children)
No way Shanghai is so fucking packed my wife and I were just talking about how it’s nice to live in Qingpu because there’s just too many people around the commercial districts in the city center
[–]therealwench[S] 4 points5 points6 points  (4 children)
Shanghai is indeed packed. Wherever they're going however...doesn't seem to be inside the shopping malls.
[–]dripboi-store 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
Not sure which areas you went to but the main shopping districts around Xintiandi, Kerry center, IAPM / Julu road, zhang yuan area is always packed even on weekdays
[–]Strange-Damage-4065 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
I recently travelled around Beijing, Shanghai, Guangdong, Yunnan, Sichuan, Shaanxi.. malls were indeed packed, ESPECIALLY in Shanghai.
[–]lazycycads 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
i wonder how much of this is part of a bigger suburbanization of Shanghai [and maybe some other T1 cities - I really don't travel much outside the SH area]. Out in suburban Minhang / Qingpu / Songjiang the big malls always seem full on weekends. Last weekend no parking at 3pm at the biggest mall in Songjiang. But when I go back to my old neighborhood in Changning... yeah it's kind of quiet and tired feeling.
[–]pageonelineone 5 points6 points7 points  (7 children)
Off topic, did u get the vape? Im in need of one too haha
[–]therealwench[S] 6 points7 points8 points  (2 children)
Which city are you in? I managed to get one in Shanghai from a guy on Wechat. He sends you his stock and you pay for it and he express delivers it to you via courier.
[–]pageonelineone 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
Im in Xi’an now but going back to Shanghai in the next days. Can I dm you for me to get the contact?
[–]therealwench[S] 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
yeah sure! they speak english too I think, but I communicated with them in mandarin.
[–]therealwench[S] 3 points4 points5 points  (2 children)
Although be careful, apparently flavoured disposable vapes are now classified as drugs or "毒品"
[–]meridian_smith 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Aren't vapes a Chinese invention? They are not selling them everywhere anymore?
[–]therealwench[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
All disposable vapes are banned and not purchasable in any physical shop/retailer.
There are refillable vapes by RELX that are not banned. However, all flavours are banned too. The only flavour that is legal is Tobacco flavour.
Which doesn't make sense because why the hell would you vape and inhale cigarette flavoured vapour.
[–]Aquariage 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
1! 5!
[–]gingerlymugged 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
In Beijing, Taikooli is as crowded as always. As for income, maybe Beijing is different - but I do see much higher salaries.
[–]AlecHutson 4 points5 points6 points  (9 children)
50 people who report to her and she makes 12k a month? That . . . doesn't sound right. My wife was a programmer for Pinghe in basically the lowest position possible (as in, no one beneath her and she did regualr drudge work) and after factoring in her yearly bonus (which for some reason never gets lumped in with monthly salary when folks discuss income) she made like 18k a month with good benefits. Our designer friend is making 30k a month at a boutique firm. Lots of Chinese make very decent salaries, especially in T1 cities.
Also . . .what malls did you walk around in in Shanghai? I'm in my office in central Xujiahui right now and meiluocheng (the big-ball mall) is a zoo all the time. Grand Gateway is also pretty busy. IAPM a few stops down Shanxi is always busy. Those are the malls around me that I frequent, and they are bustling. Yeah, there are some older malls from decades ago filled with sad local brands that seem empty, but the modern malls are quite busy.
[–]therealwench[S] 18 points19 points20 points  (4 children)
Lots of Chinese =/= anywhere close to the average person.
Also like, comparing Software engineering salaries to almost any other job is pretty out of context.
Junior Software Engineers in London make more than QA managers in London too.
I don't know anything about fashion/design so can't really comment.
According to official Chinese data even Beijing/Shanghai average salaries hover around the 10-12k a month mark. Ultimately 30k a month puts your friend in a very high percentile.
You're also forgetting that in Tier 1 cities in total make up less than 10% of China's total population
[–]AlecHutson 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
Yes, the average wage in Shanghai and Beijing is around 12k a month. That includes all those cleaning ayis and delivery drivers and service workers. White collar professionals in those cities make good wages. Just like in America, the average wage may be 50k or whatever but plenty of folk make well into six figures. I regularly meet or hear of people here making 30,40, 50k a month. My point was that for someone in charge of 50 other workers, sounds like your family friend is being underpaid. But whatever, it sounds like you’ve had your anecdotal experience and now it’s your reality - the Chinese economy is in big trouble because you went to buy a vape and the malls you went to were empty.
[–]Ronnie_SoaK_ 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
Junior Software Engineers in London make more than QA managers in London too.
Lol. Yeah that's not true, they'll make half of what a QA manager makes. Quite a few of your statements seem about as reliable as this one.
[–]therealwench[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
My employer hires an army of Junior SWE's.
My employer also has about 4-5 QA Managers.
I know the salary brackets of both...
[–]NineNen 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
That depends on what QA they do. QAM for SWE then no way. QAM for manufacturing then possible. QAM for SWE are usually SWE's themselves previously.
[–]throwaway960127 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
BMW is in Shenyang, where wages are a lot lower than in Shanghai. Also keep in mind she's a QA manager at an assembly plant, she's not exactly managing 50 white collar employees at an office
[–]therealwench[S] 5 points6 points7 points  (1 child)
Regarding malls, there were two giant ones near the Peoples Square Park, both of them with big Starbucks/McDonalds outside.
Then I went to one called "New World" something, with a big apple store in it.
It was slightly busier last weekend, compared to my normal experience in the week, but that was also because it was a Chinese national holiday weekend.
[–]AlecHutson 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
You went to malls around People’s Square and couldn’t find anyone? Look harder.
[–]verticalquandry 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Meiluo is the #1 mall in shanghai, if that place was dead at any time then China would be doomed
[–]Code_0451 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
On this topic 28,000 is not very high in T1 cities. There is a lot variation where many people earn around 8-15k or so, but there is a substantial group which earns much, much more. Tech industry for example in China pays for sought-after profiles almost as well as the US. Comparatively civil servants are really poorly paid (but get job security and less pressure).
Also malls: depends. With shopping now largely online they rely a lot on food courts and also entertainment and kid playgrounds/tutoring centers. This draws a lot on people living nearby and maybe for example Renmin Square is not an ideal location in that case.
[–]Low_Meat_7484 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
You seem to have a big misunderstanding about the salaries of Chinese civil servants. Even if you are a high-ranking civil servant, your salary will not be twice as high as that of lower-ranking civil servants. It should be said that the income of Chinese public servants is not high, generally slightly higher than the local average wage level. Of course, if you get money through corruption or other means, it is another matter.
[–]No-Oil-1669 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
People go to malls as it is the main hangout and entertainment place for people. But they barely buy anything. They’ll have a meal or just a bubble tea
[–]Hummingbirdshari 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I was at Xiamen last April. First time back visiting iChina after almost 20 yrs. SM mall was full of people and can barely move in Popmart store. Went to a different mall the day before that with Seaworld aquarium place and it seems empty coz mall was just too big.  
Online order might be the reason though coz even our hotels have robots that delivers food orders and I’ve seen that robot delivering food to hotel rooms 😂
[–]BeanoMenace 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
It's like anywhere if you have money you can make a lot more but if you're poor, man it's tough especially as there's not that much in social welfare, the biggest problem for China is it's demographics, the population is ageing and that puts a massive burden on one child families. Also massive borrowing by local governments (using shadow banking and bonds)) could cause an economic collapse as they borrow more to service the debt, all these infrastructure projects come at a cost. It's not as bad as people make in the western media but it could get a whole lot worse very quickly.
[–]sggod89 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
My younger friends (in their 20’s) are either in a low-paying shitty job they hate, or can’t find a job. When they get an offer, it’s from a job they really don’t want to take. They struggling.
Older friends (in their 40’s) have are suffering from the home prices falling. Being stuck in a home where it’s worth much less than what they bought it. Also no one can sell their homes because no wants to buy. So their wealth has been carved out by that entire bubble.
I have a few friends in their mid 30’s that were able to get a little bit ahead in their career without getting caught in the housing bubble and still can make a decent-ish salary. But they aren’t very optimistic about the future.
I’ve lived in China for 10 years. Back then everyone was super optimistic, but I haven’t heard one person say anything good about the economy since the Covid times started.
[–]Hobo_Robot[🍰] 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
Yeah the economy is bad in China, despite what the economic indicators say. The same is true in the Western world. The global economy is especially bad right now for college-educated white collar workers (which is the Reddit demographic).
You have to take any published economic indicators in China with a grain of salt, because everyone falsifies economic numbers at every level because they are incentivized to.
In China there is also a double whammy of a falling real estate market and the impact of US tariffs on the manufacturing sector. Local governments are feeling the cash crunch as funding from land sales has dried up. Things are bad everywhere, except maybe in a few specific tech sectors like AI, semiconductors, EVs, etc.
I disagree with your observations on the malls and the car industry. The nice malls are all still packed. Mall retail has been dying for a while now, but mall F&B is as popular as ever and car dealerships have filled in empty storefronts. BYD is fine - they are mass market, not luxury. BMW, like all foreign car OEMs, is facing a rapid decline in sales as Chinese EVs eat their lunch. Brilliance Auto, BMW's JV partner, went bankrupt because they were horribly mismanaged.
[–]MaryPakuJapan 11 points12 points13 points  (2 children)
CPI is dropping like crazy. The country is in a deflation spiral. Macro numbers doesn’t look good at all if you look deeper.
[–]Outrageous_Body1614 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
cpi dropping because of too much competition on the supply side and automation is quickly driving down cost with less labor. And companies in many sectors and going at each other in cutthroat competition. Chinese business leaders need to learn the point of being in business is to earn profits and have increasing margins, not going down in profits and margins. Not everything needs to have great value. It's okay to charge premium for everything like western companies do. They are selling cars that western companies charge 100K+ at 50k. Look at Apple, Nvidia, 30%, 50% margins, the same company in China would only do 5%, because they don't have the mentality to sell things expensive. Competitors need to come into mutual understanding no one will sell at low margins. It's not blatant market collusion, but let's not go at it so hard, relax, be happy, be chill. More industries should be like OPEC, regulate prices so everyone makes a healthy profit. The CPI issue is in China, there are just too many players in every single market, from restaurants, mom and pop shops to cars.
[–]MaryPakuJapan 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
The other countries aren’t able to do the same because they have proper labor laws that’s enforced. You can only do such things in China
If China don’t provide better labor rights the spending power will never increase, and no one could afford premium price for goods. Companies can only compete with low prices strategy - and that will end up even lower wages for workers because everyone is trying to cut margins. The circle keep going…
That’s the deflation spiral explained. Literally what happened in Japan before so it’s not like they don’t have someone to learn from.
[–]AutoModerator[M] 2 points3 points4 points  (6 children)
NOTICE: See below for a copy of the original post by therealwench in case it is edited or deleted.
So, I do a big trip to China once every few years and just came back from my most recent one and this trip left me a little confused. Every time I go talk to people and ask about how things are, what the local economy is like. I usually start off in my home city (Which I'll not disclose) to meet family, and then meet friends in Shanghai and Beijing, before venturing off into other cities, mainly for touristic reasons and exploring.
The general macroeconomic indicators of China's economy seems good. 5% GDP growth, sub 1% inflation, employment on the rise and manufacturing/exports sector always seem positive since the covid bounce. The last time I was in China was 2022 and the sentiment wasn't fantastic but everyone chalked it down to covid. Prior to that, everyone I spoke to was positive and optimistic and things were always getting better.
This time however, people seemed miserable. From top to bottom, professionals and high earners to taxi drivers and small restaurant popup shop owners. Everyone is saying the same things, regardless of what cities they are in, whether its Shanghai/Beijing or 2nd/3rd tier cities.
-Everyone complaining that there is no money to be made. Had a taxi driver in Shanghai tell me that after costs of DiDi and fees etc, he makes way less than 10,000RMB a month (which for Shanghai is pretty poor). People are stating that their salaries have actually decreased significantly in real terms since pre covid and that even government officials are getting their salaries cut.
-There is crumbling infrastructure that wasn't there the last few times that I was in China and when asking locals about it the response seems to be similar. "小政府没钱" - Local Government is broke. Mind you, this isn't some rural hukou government in Shanxi, this is like sub-urban Liaoning, Fujian and Sichuan.
-In my families city, a lot of the small restaurants that I used to go to have shut shop, around my families homes. Also, the local market prices hasn't seem to have increased since I was a teenager, which was decades ago. It was 13RMB to buy beef noodle soup back then for breakfast and it's now 14RMB. How are these farmers/small restaurant owners making money?
-Parents all complaining about how the pressure of kids education is immense. Extra tutoring since the age of 6-8, forcing them to learn a musical instrument because everyone else is, 10-12 hour school days since the age of 11-12. Gaokao was always a bitch since forever but I don't recall it being that bad for younger children.
-Shopping malls are all empty. I went to three different "中街" in three different tier 1 cities and it was basically just empty. The only places that weren't empty were the food courts. Again, 5-10 years ago these places used to be bustling and full of people.
-I have a lot of family working in the car industry in the North East. Apparently the industry is in a big decline and there are massive redundancies and layoffs, including big name brands like BMW. Funnily enough, BYD which the west sees as very bullish shares the opposite sentiment in China. A lot of people thinks its shit (don't really understand why because being in BYD taxi's, they feel pretty nice).
-Not a single person I spoke to had something good to say about the direction of the country. Which is a complete turnaround from 2018 and 2015 and prior. It just seems that people are bitter and miserable and there's an underlying malaise. A few people even openly criticizing the CCP/local/central government which 5-7 years ago was completely unheard of.
People who live in China full time - what's your experience? What's happening out there? The macro-indicators seem good and yet everyone seems to be feeling a negative pinch. It just seems very bizarre to me that production/manufacturing and consumption seem to be on the rise and yet, the general atmosphere seems to be the opposite.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
[–]Mundane_Pomelo_1591 4 points5 points6 points  (5 children)
This is a global issue. I am in the UK and we are fcked!!! Wage stagnation, housing crisis, cost of living, families with children working more than 4 jobs combined relying on food banks to feed themselves, no social security net at all. Just where I live in East London, the amount of homelessness evident by the random tents set up all over local parks, by canals etc. forgot to mention rising utility bills etc.
[–]KAYO789 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Same things are happening in NZ and Australia
[–]therealwench[S] 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
I am also from the UK.
Thing's are shit. However, UK's macro-indicators are also pretty shit and the general sentiment makes sense with the broader indicators.
China's macro-indicators and "vibe on the ground" directly contradict one another.
Also, I'd hardly qualify UK's declining lack of social security even comparable with China's none-existent one.
[–]BeanoMenace 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
of course there's social security , the NHS, schools, JSA, pensions, free child care etc. UKs so rich we put illegal immigrants up in 4 star hotels with food and some spending money!
[–]The_Redoubtable_Dane 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
It's not everywhere. Denmark, Switzerland, Norway and Singapore are doing really good, for example. Countries like Mexico, Vietnam, Malaysia and Kazakhstan are on an upwards trajectory despite starting from a very low point.
[–]antilittlepink -5 points-4 points-3 points  (0 children)
China is 5000 levels below that
[–]onespiker 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Consumption is down in China as of the last years.
Local government are getting squezed by income being cut substantially by real estate valuation being drastically reduced.
[–]drink_with_me_to_day 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
5% GDP growth, sub 1% inflation,
Seems like a universal sentiment
My country also is boasting GDP growth however it doesn't translate to personall financial success
[–]insidiarii 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
This is what de-leveraging looks like. It's the same as when a body goes through withdrawal. Except instead of drugs, it's credit. When credit is restricted and people are forced to pay down loans, money is being systematically removed from the economy and there is less to go around. This is basically the Central Government forcing the people to stop engaging in real estate speculation.
[–]KevKevKvn 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
You’ve summarized the ground level situation more perfectly and accurately than any mainstream news outlet could only dream of. Yes. This is exactly the current situation. Stats don’t show the real results.
My only comment is that Chinese people still have savings and aren’t spending. Rates will likely drop again to encourage spending and subsequently tax for gov to do things again.
[–]Born-Requirement2128 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Given the the CCP elite in China controls the entire economic and political system, it could well be that all the benefits of GDP growth are going to them, with none distributed to the workers and peasants. 
In the west, elites have increasingly captured the workings of the state since 1980. Imagine how much worse this would be if elites had full legal control of everything - that's the situation in China.
[–]OkMathematician3516 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Real estate market collapse is making people feel poor.
Population collapse is driving increasing automation and AI usage, and this is helping maintaining the GDP growth, but at the expense of increasing income/wealth inequality and increasing unemployment among the masses, especially the younger ones.
High unemployment for recent graduates, driven by AI and automation, is causing worry and pessimism not only among them but also their parents generation.
[–]DescriptionOwn6184 17 points18 points19 points  (6 children)
My wife is attending a local university (not disclosing where for obvious reasons) and she told me that the profs (plural) are bemoaning the state of youth in that suicide rates among High School-aged kids are up. WAY up.
It's super-hard to find (you won't) articles about it, but apparently it's a thing. It's really fuckin' sad. I remember hearing of a few instances here and there where parents would be pressed by the state to keep their mouth shut, etc.
All I can say is "any metrics that come out of China are likely fabricated." Who knows what the hell actually goes on here? Shit, I read years ago that "China's entire gold supply is gold leaf-wrapped tin" and that the actual exchange rate of the yuan - USD is closer to that of the peso, but SO MUCH of China's money is invested globally that to call them on their bluff would essentially break the world.
[–]EggstremelySmallPnis 15 points16 points17 points  (5 children)
This is a baffling comment, how could the 'actual' exchange rate be different to what the exchange rate actually is? The exchange rate is just the price the currency is exchanged at, it is whatever it is, whatever the reason for it being that is.
[–]notapersonaltrainer 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Certain currencies are managed more than others. Some are outright pegs, some are soft pegs like China, and others are free floating like USD.
[–]EggstremelySmallPnis 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Yes but China has always tried to keep the exchange rate low to assist manufacturing and exporting, not artificially inflate it.
[–]Mysteriouskid00 -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
Because the exchange rate is controlled by the government.
It’s the same in Vietnam. The official exchange rate might be 26,000 VND to USD, but the “black market” is 28,000 VND to USD.
That tells you the value of the VND is ~10% lower than the official exchange rate.
[–]BenjaminHamnett -3 points-2 points-1 points  (1 child)
Even tho the money isn’t “backed”, it effectively sort of is. If a country increases its gold reserve, it is proving a capability to pay its debts and expenses. I’d go so far as to say, all things being equal, that for indirect/correlated reasons, a country doubling its gold reserves would generally almost double the value of its currency
But this would be an extreme case of godharts law, a metric that would only be useful if it’s not overly focused on, and gamed (a country focused on hoarding gold as a short term priority would work out poorly)
[–]EggstremelySmallPnis 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
Well OK, but the guy's claim is absolutely ridiculous anyway. These things get audited and the gold gets traded on the international market. If a significant amount of it was counterfeit it would be found out pretty quick and cause them big headaches which would make it more risky than just buying or mining the gold for real.
[–]OllieeePan 7 points8 points9 points  (3 children)
You ask anybody in any developed western country, they'll say the same. Here in Australia, I see headlines like that literally everyday. It's not just China, it's everywhere.
[–]emraydiations 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
So if it's bad for everyone, then it's really actually bad for no one? Coz everyone is in the same situation? Maybe its just headlines and not the true situation? Has overall production of goods around the world stopped, as in has there been a contraction in technology and there's less supply of products causing prices to go up? Or just fearmongering among media. Something not adding up
[–]Ok-Championship-1105 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Depends if you have a house to live in which is becoming a generational impossibility for many Australians.
[–]emraydiations 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I was moreso referencing how OP said it felt like everyone was miserable and there was no money to be made. And I'm questioning that because production and technology hasn't slowed down so supply shouldn't be reducing. It's not adding up. And I live in Sydney Australia, I know about the housing crisis, but I was more doubting OP saying everybody is miserable
[–]Focux 12 points13 points14 points  (3 children)
Doesn’t feel that way in GZ
[–]therealwench[S] 9 points10 points11 points  (2 children)
To be fair, I don't really go too far south in China, so it could be completely different there.
It's just too hot and humid for me .
[–]Gamepetrol2011France 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
I often visit my relatives in Guangdong province and once I went there in summer. It was hot as hell! Moreover, my little cousin literally wore trousers/pants instead of shorts! Anyway, I learned how to get used to the local environment.
[–]emraydiations 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Facts. I don't get how people wear long pants and sleeves in that weather, do they not feel the humidity?? Can u really get used to it? I was there 2 weeks recently and couldn't get used to it
[–]Hyoubu 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
This all sounds like a nation that finishes maturing as an economy. It consistently shocks the local population once you reach this “end game” stage. Japan’s lost decade was like this from when I read about it. Asset collapse and malaise just took over culturally. Germany too; lookup the Wirtschaftswunder.
Classic path: miracle, stall, malaise, and finally adjustment or adaptation if the government is capable of handling it.
[–]cleon80 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Unlike those other countries, China hasn't reached developed status, or at least large parts of it hasn't. Gonna be a hard sell to tell the poorer regions that the growth stage is over.
[–]Hyoubu 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
High growth phases in an economy is like the high off a drug, where once the initial euphoria comes and goes you have to come back down, and some try to double down and increase their tolerance in the process, you inevitably have to deal with the crash or withdrawals.
[–]fromkatain[🍰] 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Japan's economy is even weirder they lose as many businesses each year as people, because eldery's is dying and nobody to replace them maybe advanced a.i. humanoid robots/agents can fill the gap.
[–]ct4k 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I’m earning way more than last year, which felt miserable in terms of brand budget, but looking to be on par with 2023.
[–]mansotired 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
the 5% GDP growth isn't real imo, they just made up the number
[–]Commercial-Safety341 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
According to the CCP, this is due to CIA black hands.
[–]Plenty-Equal8615 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
chinese economy is fucked. it will be like house of cards.
[–]Sir_Bumcheeks 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
COVID really fucked everything up
[–]foo-bar-nlogn-100 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
K economies everywhere.
To top K are doing great because of asset appreciation.
The bottom K are going horrible because of asset appreciation.
So in aggregate, economy may be doing better but the distribution is barbelled.
[–]Loose-Cry3100 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Sorry but guangzhou city malls are full lol so crowded I cant even get a seat for dinner
[–]xxfallen420xx 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Evergrande
[–]VegetableSquirrel 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I haven't been to a big shopping mall in ages. All the Costco stores, though, are very busy.
I spoke to a coworker who regularly shops online from Amazon for most things. She says it's cheaper than going in person because she doesn't make so many impulsive purchases. She buys for her family of her, her husband, and two older teens.
[–]Holiday-Instruction4 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Yeah, we Chinese are in an economic depression; everything is getting worse; all the people around me feel miserable, most graduates I know can not find jobs, and the real unemployment rates are probably insane. The government just rigged the data to make it look good.
[–]bdknight2000 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
It's been going downhill since after covid. I have many friends in tech industry who cannot find work after being laid off.
[–]tomdon88 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
The Media talks as if China is at the behest of the USA and the west and without trade to them the economy will collapse.
Reality is China is pretty much self sufficient as a country and can operate in isolation. Technology transfer has happened which has caught China up in most area with the best in the world, and now it’s got momentum to continue that path, so things it does import today (high end chips, machinery etc) it can already make good enough alternatives.
So when you are self sufficient how big the pie to share is based on how efficient you are (they embrace technology in a way the west struggle to) and then you decide how to share it. Majority of people in China expect to work harder than people in the west and get little for it, there still is a sense of collectivism and personal sacrifice is expected for the bigger cause.
But people in China are much more likely to enjoy the simple things in life like exercising together in the morning, basic cost of living in rural areas can be incredibly cheap.
The only threat to China’s economy will be if the population decides they are not happy with their lot (and certainly things like overdeveloping property and convincing people to invest their life savings in it (cultural pressure to be a home owner) risks this), as long as this is balanced China should be impervious to external conditions.
Also Chinese people save so much, even relatively poor people will accumulate surprising amounts of money, in the West half the population are a month away from disaster, there is personal resilience in China in the population.
[–]The_Redoubtable_Dane 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
"in the West half the population are a month away from disaster"
Not in the collective West. In the Americas. Europeans either save, or there is a robust social safety net financed through taxes.
[–]ZealousidealDance990 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
你知道滴滴司机没啥门槛吧,这样的工作也能月入上万,就算在上海也不是相当低。而如果把视线放到二三线城市呢?他们的车费和上海并没有巨大改变,滴滴司机这样没有门槛的工作如果可以月入六到八千似乎就已经相当不低了
[–]Antique-Ad7635 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
Designer malls are empty because no one can afford Gucci and Burberry. Older malls are empty because they keep opening new malls and the old malls can’t keep up with all the amazing new features. New malls are PACKED on weekends. I keep asking if regular weekends are actually obscure holidays because the restaurants and malls are packed to holiday levels.
[–]BedOk577 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
We need to make the rich people spend more not let the rich get richer. That is the only way to get liquidity back into the economy instead of wealth hoarding.
[–]Zacchkeus 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
So basically same as most countries around the world.
[–]aku286 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
It’s called deflation
[–]Interesting-Buy-7744 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
The answer is simple enough: Real estate boom (or babble) is over. Anyone with 2 plus houses/apartments in a city has lost huge amount of savings of their family. Take my city as an example, average house price has dropped 50% or higher from its peak in 2020-2021. Chinese people are the ones who will feel unsafe and afraid of consuming if they don’t have certain amount of savings, which is for future uncertainties, namely serious illness/injuries or unemployment.
[–]BigTexas85 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
China always lies about its economic conditions. You know this. They are in bad shape economically.
[–]Ralle_Rula 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Been living in China for 19 years. Your description is very accurate. Whatever growth there is, is happening in places you can't see (eg "pillar economy" industries).
[–]Eric_Zookeeper 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
I share your observations. Experienced this in my travels to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Liaoning.
People are miserable. They complain that the economy is broken. The northeast cities say that the central government is taking care of the central and southern provinces more. Housing prices all around have collapsed and this has caused a ripple wealth effect. Malls are empty. But sporadically , some retail businesses are still doing ok - such as the 24 hour spas and resorts.
[–]Rough_Original2973 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Didn't feel that way in Chongqing, Guizhou, Guangxi(Nanning Guilin) or Yunnan (Kunming and Xishangbanna).
Maybe a tier 1 city issue?
[–]Mysterious-Return164 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
In Shanghai right now and last time I was here was 8 years ago. There’s a big difference as you’ve said. Things are bad for anyone not super rich to begin with. ( but honestly it’s the same everywhere). At least compared to Toronto I don’t have to worry about being jumped for my car or random homeless people roaming around.
[–]Probolone 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
The problem with communism is that it devolves into an authoritarian regime, where it was born to be a party for the workers, the workers quickly lose their vote and say.
[–]Few_Force2320[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Get rid of elites. Installs new elites
[–]19851223hu 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
I have been here for 17 years now, and I am in the south of China. Since 2020 I have seen things getting harder for people. For example the school my kid goes to, it is a pretty expensive international school most of the foreign students have left and the Chinese parents are starting to complain that the tuition is too high, the value of the school is too low by comparison. This are people who have Ferraris, Porscshes, three moms come to school in a Lamborghini SUV, many are in high end full package teslas. If they are complaining about the cost of things, then something is off with the economy.
Personally, I have noticed that 100rmb doesn't travel as far as it used to when I arrived here. I could walk around with 300 in my pocket and be fine for an entire day of playing, eating, and doing whatever. Compared to last weekend we went out just as the 4 of us (wife and kids) and it cost 190 just for the food at Hakka , we got Coco Tea for us that was 30ish, and an ice cream for the older one at dairy queen that was also 36. This is crazy, minus the ice cream this is something that my wife and I would have ate regularly before and meal for 2 at Hakka would be 110 getting basically the same stuff. Going to the market for groceries is more expensive, prices seem to be like 20-40% higher than the beginning of last year.
Things are a mess, like you said a lot of little places shut down particularly in the last 3 years. The sushi place I used to eat lunch at 3 times a week is gone, had the best salmon fried rice for 15 yuan, it went to 20 yuan before they closed up shop. The beef noodle place my wife liked is gone, the little vegetable market she shopped at is gone, even some western places have shut down. Like Taco bell opened in Guangzhou was around for a year, doing good and then suddenly was closed after the spring festival 2 years ago. McDonald's shut down and moved out of a building it was in for the entire time I have lived in this area (9 years), no reason it was popular I thought.
As for government things, I have seen a lot of people complaining about having the scooters taken from them, getting fined for driving on the street with their bikes, getting fined for riding on the sidewalk with their bikes, just having a bike has gotten people a fine. The Chengguan are out in force randomly, the steal scooters and ebikes, crack down on sellers, the food stalls that used to set up in front of the university gate across from my company all got chased away so often they don't come back anymore. These kinds of things are making people complain a lot, their wages are getting cut for no good reason, things are getting more expensive while cheap options are disappearing, education is getting wildly expensive and the quality for the price is just not there. I think a lot of it has to do with covid and the whole crap storm it caused, but there are lots of local and national level policies that have caused a lot of people a lot of hardships in the last 5, 10 years.
[–]Quiet_Government2222 7 points8 points9 points  (3 children)
The Chinese Communist Party is famous for not having proper indicators. And when existing indicators get worse, they sometimes stop publishing them. Recently, when the youth unemployment rate became too high, they stopped publishing them for a while, and then changed the criteria to a lower index and started publishing them again. The previous dictatorship in Korea also changed the unemployment rate criteria and published them. This is a common feature of dictatorships.
[–]Biased_Media 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
So you're saying if an indicator was wrongly calculated, then correcting it is a sign of dictatorship? Lol.
China's previous unemployment rate included college age people. The right, logical move is to correct an incorrect measurement.
[–]p0179417 -1 points0 points1 point  (1 child)
Changing indicators is not exactly a dictator specific action. America constantly changes how we calculate inflation in order to appear better, and I’m sure there’s other indicators that they modify as well.
[–]Quiet_Government2222 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
Trump is also a dictator.
[–]TonyArmasJr 3 points4 points5 points  (3 children)
the economy is a total sh*t show now, and probably going to get worse before it gets better. Restaurants, bars, malls ... closing down left and right.
[–]BedOk577 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Shopping malls are thriving in the 1st tier cities where the expats are.
[–]TonyArmasJr -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
no they're not.
I live in Sanlitun, the most famous mall area in Beijing. It's about 1/3 of the foot traffic from before Covid. Lot of businesses are struggling to survive, or already closed.
[–]Born-Requirement2128 -4 points-3 points-2 points  (0 children)
If that's what 5% economic growth looks like in China, I'd hate to see 0% growth...
[–]reflyer 3 points4 points5 points  (5 children)
Northeast China, the Chinese version of the rust belt, its decline is inevitable. It was like this twenty years ago
[–]therealwench[S] 5 points6 points7 points  (4 children)
It really wasn't.
I spent a lot of my life in Northeast China and from the late 90's to around 2010 things improved so so quickly.
Just look at a picture of Dalian/Shenyang/Anshan in say, 1999 and then in 2010. Thing's got better so quickly for so many people, my family included.
[–]Code_0451 2 points3 points4 points  (3 children)
Dongbei has been an economic basket case for many years with statist and obsolete industries. For probably at least a decade or so it had about 0% growth and is fiscally deep in the red.
I guess with government support and the housing boom this kinda got papered over, but this couldn’t continue forever.
[–]therealwench[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
Interesting - I was under the impression there was a gigantic manufacturing base there.
For example, got a few family friends who work for Military aircraft manufacturing.
[–]Code_0451 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Yes, but growth is coming now mainly from tech and export industries. The coastal regions from the Yangzi River delta to the Pearl River delta has plenty of these, is still very dynamic and nowadays generates most of China’s growth. Most of the rest of China is pretty stagnant.
[–]Eric1491625 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Interesting - I was under the impression there was a gigantic manufacturing base there.
That's precisely the problem.
Manchuria has been the most heavy-industry focused region of China since the 1930s. It's China's Rust Belt, and now that China has "moved past" that phase of development, it has to experience what Detroit did in the 1970s.
[–]Legomaniac913 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Yea sounds about right
[–]nextdoorelephant 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
I was in Shanghai and Xi’an last year and felt a similar sentiment. It seemed business as usual at the street level but once you went into the restaurants, bars or clubs it was dead.
[–]sparqq -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
Noticed the same in Shenzhen a few months ago, Friday night the bars and clubs were empty in the downtown area.
[–]SnooStories8432 4 points5 points6 points  (1 child)
This is not difficult to explain:
China produces a lot but consumes little.
The West consumes little but produces a lot.
In the past, China produced to supply the West's consumption.
Now the West wants to localise production, which inevitably means reducing imports from China.
This means that China must reduce production and increase consumption.
The West must reduce consumption and increase production.
This means: The West must endure inflation, as everything in China is currently cheap, while everything in the West is expensive. The West must increase working hours.
China must slow down, enforce longer rest periods, strictly enforce labour laws, and shift towards service-oriented consumption rather than production-oriented consumption. This means relaxing social controls.
[–]BenjaminHamnett 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Half the worlds population lives in a small circle encompassing south and east Asia
A “consumption based economy” only works when you look at numbers on papers and ignore the real world. Or in the real world it works when you have 10x the resources per person.
Their resource is labor.
If people could just “you know, I don’t like work and I like consuming” they’d do it
[–]Mysteriouskid00 3 points4 points5 points  (2 children)
This is what a massive unwinding looks like. All of those problems talked about for the past few years has come to fruition. It’s what the US went through in 2008 (though not as severe due to money printer go brrr).
  1. Debt failure
  2. Debt holders take haircut, so pull back on spending
  3. Employees cut back due to job uncertainty
  4. Cities can’t borrow any more
  5. Businesses start to fail.
  6. Go to step 1
It’s a downward cycle that is so severe it causes deflation in China (making things worse). The Chinese government is trying to make the debt failure managed and it’s softening the blow but doesn’t avoid it. Efforts to prop up the stock market hasn’t really worked.
The cycle above continues until bad debt is removed from the system. Then people and businesses will start to spend an upward economic growth will start again.
[–]MaryPakuJapan 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
China has been printing money like insane since very long ago though. People think China need to start fixing their shit but the fact the current situation is already after most economic tools have been running at a full turbo for awhile.
[–]Mysteriouskid00 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Very true. The government has been intervening since Covid and dumping a ton of money into the economy.
The big concern is they are running out of tools to fix it.
[–]lolcatjunior 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
China was still under lock down during 2022(it ended in 2023). Things could be a little better than before since the lockdown is over.
[–]MetroidvaniaListsGuy 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
A person on the internet described the post covid economy as such: streamers pay for delivery, delivery drivers pay for streamers, and security guards guard buildings while watching streamers and ordering deliveries. 
[–]wutwutinthebox 1 point2 points3 points  (3 children)
When the gov lies and manipulates the numbers, this is what happens. China looks amazing on paper, but it's a shit place to live if you're under the comfort zone.
[–]Academic_Skin_6889 comment score below threshold-6 points-5 points-4 points  (2 children)
They probably have no idea what the numbers are. They’re ploughing through cash so quickly how could they. If you’re building bridges, railways, cities etc at the pace China does do you think anyone is properly assessing the finances, any sort of analyses? and more importantly whether they needed the thing in the first place?
[–]Trojbd 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
Yes because that's literally what accountants are for. It won't be 100% accurate until everything is fully integrated into a digital system but most of these claims of China fudging all the numbers are based off of nothing but personal vibes.
[–]Academic_Skin_6889 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Accountants are for paying/ not paying taxes. It won’t ever be 100% accurate because of corruption.
[–]hustxdy 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
another china collapsing story.
good job, should tell POTUS about that, so he will not chicken out during this round trade war
[–]Sea_Grape_5913 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Situation is very uncertain in many countries. Businesses tend not to invest when the environment is uncertain. Population tends to save more, when there is uncertainty in their job. These things affect the economy.
In China, during / after covid, emigration has increased. It is now somewhere in the region of 300,000 a year. Numbers are still small, as a percentage of total population, but you must take into consideration that many of these are the rich and middle class. They are people who can afford to spend and give a boost to the economy.
I believe it will take a few years for China to absorb the excesses in the property sector. After that, the situation should improve. Shanghai property on the rebound soon?
[–]Ubik_42_ 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I feel that the economy is not much different from that before the pandemic, but people have become more pessimistic - mainly due to the asset recession caused by the decline in housing prices.
[–]DerekConpith2952 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Well, when the unemployment and consumption degradation is ubiquitous, it’s hardly impossible for you to meet miserable people everywhere, China now is a society with least hope, and biggest uncertainty of the future I think😂
[–]Sasselhoff 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
See now that's interesting, because I just got back from spending some time in a (as you put it) "rural hukou government in Shanxi" and was shocked at how much things had advanced since I was last in country about seven years ago. Spent some time in a bigger city too, but it was a holiday so I don't think that was a good representation of how things usually are.
All that said, my buddy was saying that things had gotten much tougher for the average person, and restaurants were closing at a high rate. Not to mention, all the new houses built by the train station were apparently a "required buy" for anyone who worked for the city and wanted to keep their job (supposedly it was a "You like working here? Great, go buy one of those apartments if you want to keep doing so" kind of a situation by the government leaders).
I think things are getting pretty tight globally, and I hope we can all collectively realize we're getting fucked by the oligarchs before we really do become serfs, but I'm not exactly holding my breath.
[–]therealwench[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
For me, the speed of advancement and development was insane from 2000's to 2015, from then on it kinda slowed, and then all my visits post covid saw a relative decay.
[–]WaterElectronic5906 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Look at the collapsing birth rate. That tells you everything. If people believe in the future or the direction of the country, why are they not having children?
And don’t get me started on people having fewer children when getting richer. China is not rich, it is a developing country that has a birth rate much much lower than most developed countries. This has never been seen in human history before.
[–]shakdnugz 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Peter. zeihan.
[–]PHUCKHedgeFunds 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
If Chinese people really think BYD is shit, how is the best auto seller in China?
[–]CNcharacteristics 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I live here (China) as an expat. have done for almost a decade. Your observations are not deceiving you.
The feeling has changed significantly. It was a lot more optimistic right up until covid.
Covid and dynamic-zero was a sensitive blur. There was some immediate optimism in the aftermath, but it was very short lived.
My Chinese family, my colleagues, and friends have all been effected in some way.
We could probably type essays about it for hours and hours, but there isn't really much point.
In short, it is 'over'. Just not in the sense that the sensationalist headlines depict. The century of glory that was promised is not in sight. The Middle Kingdom that recently was, is now gone, and it is unclear what the future holds.
[–]Odd_Gazelle_3076 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
1¹¹¹1¹1 r
[–]SeaworthinessOld9433 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Went back recently and people are complaining about lack of jobs. Even those who just graduated from college are finding it very hard to find jobs. A lot of them have to do whatever jobs they can to make ends meet but they won’t be going into the manufacturing jobs their parents/grandparents did.
[–]Complete_Ad6862 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Was in Chongqing very recently and everything was bustling, including at various malls, I was surprised at the amount of retail activity given all the same-day delivery.
That said, luxury mall in Chengdu before that was pretty eerily quiet, seemingly more than 10x as many store attendants as customers.
[–]The_Redoubtable_Dane 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
To be fair, Chongqing has the worst weather (one of the cities in the world with the fewest annual sunshine hours!), so of course people will be more inside :D
[–]TheWiseSquid884 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Mainland China isn't actually growing anywhere near to 5%.
[–]lebronmeow 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
I think tier one cities are doing fine, but the rest of the cities (manufacturing focused ) are empty because people can’t find jobs so they left to go back to the cities they came from.
[–]BedOk577 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
If manufacturer can't find buyers, then people can't find jobs
[–]Top-Stable-4957 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I have been visiting China for 30 years for work, it is the first time I have seen a major down turn. People are genuinely un happy. They are being asked to do more for less. I see a revolt happening in some form. Never have I been out and seen the most popular restaurants half to quarter full.
[–]IcharrisTheAI 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Not sure. I have certainly seen empty malls. But I’ve also seen packed one. Generally I haven’t had a similar sentiment as you are conveying. But certainly the entire world (and China included; probably more than the average country) is struggling due to economic downturn. A lot of factors for this. Trade wars and real wars are straining the entire global economy
[–]SumoSummer 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I know what you mean about the infrastructure. Look up if you're in an airport there, there will be metal beams to make the building look more futuristic, but they'll be covered in filth because it's not cleaned.     
[–]shchemprof 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
“  It just seems very bizarre to me that production/manufacturing and consumption seem to be on the rise and yet, the general atmosphere seems to be the opposite.” those are government numbers. So… yea
[–]modsaretoddlers 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Well, it really depends on who you ask. See, if you're online or here on Reddit, everything is better than ever. Never been better. Of course, if that were true, you'd think there'd be no need to tell people about it and argue with them. Of course, it's obviously not true. The truth is clearly that there isn't really %5 growth and things are hardly booming.
The wumaos have been pushing The People's Daily for a while now which means things are getting pretty bad. Likely things have stabilized to some degree but it looks like the trend is still downward. The online market got a big boost from COVID so, that's one factor for sure. And, of course, COVID showed an already skittish population in China how quickly things can come crashing down. With the foreign cohort of the population gone and unlikely to return any time soon, cities like Shanghai and Beijing are likely to feel it the most
[–]eatsleepdiver 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Malls are only convenient for food courts, cinemas and most importantly A/C. Online shopping and food delivery has made brick and mortar stores a dying industry.
Even the ghost kitchens had it hard. I knew a woman who tried her hand at it. She didn’t have the best product, hotdogs, but said Meityuan took a big cut. Like 30% of each sale.
I was there during COVID. The amount of money wasted on covid testing and faux home quarantine was insane.
[–]Proud_Huckleberry_42 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I read the economy has gone down, a lot of unemployment, businesses shutting down, etc. But, things should start improving again by next year. We'll see.
[–]Accomplished_Row5869 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
When you're used to double digit growth for two generations, 5% is a recession.
[–]Fresh-Persimmon5473 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
With China’s big population, how can they guarantee jobs for everyone? Or well paying jobs for everyone?
[–]Shot_Kale_6884 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
You’re confused for a reason. Propaganda. I suggest following China Uncensored and China Fact Chasers to get the truth behind your confusion.
[–]Only_Koi 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Would that be capitalism establishing? hahaha
For sure a lot of money is being made in China somewhere, which probably is happening on the billionaire/ millionaires side.
[–]throwitfarandwide_1 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Do you think the malaise is similar to what happens in Japan in the mid 1990s?
[–]BikeRich957 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
[ Removed by Reddit ]
[–]OrangeEducational160 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
"Extra tutoring since the age of 6-8, forcing them to learn a musical instrument because everyone else is"
Forcing someone into vocational arts like music is a very sad thing for the kid and a very pathetic act from the parents, who only want to show off how their kid learnt how to play X song in X months.. especially enrolling them in those classical violin and piano classes when their parents don't even like or listen to classical music at home. There is no vocation, nor passion from the kid, and no music culture within the family. Only that stupid "my kid is a little genius" complex.
Most of those kids will grow up resented and hating everything about music, traumatized by those forced lessons.
My parents are both artists and they always told me "if you don`t like it don`t even try it"
[–]No-Firefighter-1483 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
In what world is sub 1% inflation good?
[–]Sylviester 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
i notice it too, especially outside of tier 1 city
[–]hospitalist1975 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
In China the numbers can be made up, not reflecting the reality of how things are
[–]CaramelizationMan 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Thousands of comments, but only one photo, this is weird.
[–]kurioutkat 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I had a similar experience in Hong Kong this year. A lot of places that I remembered being busy had drastically changed within a decade. Restaurants seemed to be an exception, I had a couple experiences on weekends in the evening where we had to wait in queue for 30 mins to an hour to get a table. So that's a good sign but it was peak hour.
The empty malls I guess with online shopping is more understandable. But I think the main reason is sector-specific growth/decline. As well as, people being more careful with their spending.
The tariff war with the US is also causing a lot of disruption and uncertainty. So investors are also more cautious.
[–]Aescorvo 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
The malls near me are doing OK, but the rise of online shopping took the heart of their business a few years ago.
BYD seems to get a lot of hate, because they’ve pushed the prices down so much. I’ve had to listen to two different people rail against them recently, calling them vampires and parasites, and I’m not even in the industry.
Prices have risen, salaries haven’t. The cost of education has gotten stupid. Tariffs and trade restrictions are biting. Less foreign investment. Instead of talking about economic improvements the leadership keeps antagonizing the US and promising a war no-one wants.
[–]Sufficient_Bike_7710 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Guys I need some help , if anyone from China or surrounding countries , please respond
[–]Aggravating-Mess8239 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I have lived in China for a long time, what questions do you have?
[–]SnowboardMan63 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
maybe thats including the 1%? for the bottom 99%, thats not true.
[–]pjalle 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
"Local government is broke" sounds correct. Lots of their funding was through leasing out land for highrise construction. With the collapse of the housing bubble they probably lost their biggest revenue stream. Another problem is excessive borrowing by local governments for huge infrastructure projects to boost spending and achieve the lofty GDP targets of the CCP.
[–]Imaginary-Nobody9585 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Well, in case you haven’t watched this video that discussed how ccp fake the GDP growth… here’s a link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hwYsAl6srRs&pp=ygUS57uP5rWO5pWw5o2u6YCg5YGH0gcJCd4JAYcqIYzv
[–]jalapenochips02 0 points1 point2 points  (7 children)
I think that the government numbers are indeed unreliable, but it’s worse than that. GDP growth is an input in China, not an output. China is not like the U.S. or other western countries where the GDP is an output that reflects how well the private sector is doing. In China, the CCP decides how fast the economy is going to grow, and then they pull various levers to make sure it hits that goal (usually infrastructural spending or unproductive projects sustained only by cheap loans). The CCP officials are fully aware that less and less of their growth is “high quality” and that much of their growth nowadays is unsustainable and driven wholly by unproductive debt. They suffer from the same problem that all countries suffer from (some more than others); those in power don’t want to change the system that keeps them in power.
Anyways, since Chinese GDP growth is an input, it says nothing about how well the productive parts of the economy are doing. Don’t pay attention to how fast their economy is growing. Pay attention instead on how fast Chinese household incomes are growing or how fast consumption is growing as a part of the economy if you want to know how actual people are doing
[–]Biased_Media 0 points1 point2 points  (5 children)
Are you joking? The US GDP includes government spending, inflated healthcare and college education cost, and financial services (very much smoke and mirrors - you think output from the finance industry is real productivity?).
[–]jalapenochips02 0 points1 point2 points  (4 children)
Oh, obviously the U.S. economy has many flaws, and both the U.S. and Chinese economies are mixed economies. However, the Chinese government has far more control over its economy than the U.S. government has over its economy. We can’t just have Congress suddenly decide to provide funding for trains and highways on a massive scale to accelerate economic growth even if we wanted to. In some ways, we need infrastructure spending far more than China, but we can’t just make it happen with the same speed or on the same scale
[–]Biased_Media 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
In your own words, you said that GDP in the US and other western countries is an output indicating how well the private sector is doing. That is not true, at least for the US, based on how American GDP is calculated and which you agreed with me.
Also, the US arguably has as much control over its economy as the Chinese gov does, since it's very easy to increase gov spending, which is an input into GDP.
[–]jalapenochips02 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
Bro, if we can’t agree that Congress moves slower than China’s government on infrastructure spending or any other similar sustained stimulus efforts, I dunno if this is going to be a productive conversation. I’m not invested in proving the greatness of either country; I’m merely pointing out that the Chinese economy has a very different relationship to its government than most Western economies to their government, which makes GDP growth a bad metric
[–]Biased_Media 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I'm not talking about infrastructure spending, which you seem to be stuck on. I'm talking about military spending, which the US gov can move quickly on. Also have you not been following US politics? The president (currently Trump) can simply put out executive orders that impact taxes and spending.
[–]Biased_Media 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I do agree with you that GDP is a bad metric for measuring a country's economic health, since a lot of unproductive and inflated spending (such as on military and financial services) go into it. PPP is a far more accurate measure.
[–]Fit_Quit7002 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Confused too, as I’ve been reading posts like this on social media about crisis level economy in China, but malls and commercial areas Guangzhou and Foshan seem bustling to me. More vibrant than Singapore’s.
[–]Skandling 0 points1 point2 points  (11 children)
The general macroeconomic indicators of China's economy seems good. 5% GDP growth, sub 1% inflation, employment on the rise and manufacturing/exports sector always seem positive since the covid bounce. The last time I was in China was 2022 and the sentiment wasn't fantastic but everyone chalked it down to covid. Prior to that, everyone I spoke to was positive and optimistic and things were always getting better.
The indicators seem good but they are misleading. China's GDP growth in particular doesn't measure the same thing as in other countries. Normally GDP measures economic output, from both government and private sectors.
In China though the government includes investment spending, an input. This is not only misleading, making GDP look higher than it should be, making it not comparable with other countries. It turns GDP into an input in China's economic planning as the government can hit it's GDP target simply by spending more money. And it keeps doing so, keeps hitting its target, so 5%, whatever the underlying economic conditions.
Apart from being misleading this approach causes other problems. To hit its target the government spends increasing amounts on investment. But by doing to faster than the underlying growth on the economy it is spending money on things the economt doesn't need, such as excess housing, underused infrastructure, and an overlarge manufacturing sector that has to export its excess.
[–]shatnersbassoonpath 1 point2 points3 points  (10 children)
Lots of confusion here, GDP is defined in economics as private consumption + investment + government spending + net exports. I am not a China expert, but from what I have read the Chinese growth strategy does seem to be imbalanced and in need of increasing consumption as a motor for growth. This is irrelevant to the fact that government spending is definitionally part of gdp everywhere.
[–]Skandling -2 points-1 points0 points  (9 children)
No, GDP is a measure of outputs, or production. It can be calculated other ways but the underlying statistic being measured is (Gross Domestic) production.
You can use spending, but only if it matches production. Government spending on health e.g. can be used a proxy for health production because if the government didn't provide healthcare then private companies would, and people would pay for it. This can be easier than trying to measure healthcare production itself, as healthcare outcomes are very hard to value.
In China though spending is included even when it has no productive outcomes. When the government builds, or subsidises, houses no-one needs it doesn't boost the economy. It's spending money for spending's sake, but without a productive outcome it doesn't grow the real economy, just results in lots of debt.
[–]Ubik_42_ 1 point2 points3 points  (5 children)
I often hear a saying in China that if the US GDP calculation method were used, China's GDP would be even higher. As you mentioned, investments have been made in some areas with relatively low demand, but these investments have still been effectively transformed into outputs. Even the most over - produced houses now still have a sizable trading market for gradual digestion. On the other hand, a large amount of consumption has not been included in the GDP. Influenced by communism, the government believes that only physical production counts as GDP, thus overlooking the economic statistics of much of service industry and small - scale enterprises .
China's current GDP is not overestimated. The Gross Domestic Product is always calculated as such according to its definition. I think what you're trying to say is that a lot of the physical production resulting from government investments, though included in the GDP, has not efficiently improved people's living standards. The GDP of developed countries is mainly composed of the service sector. In the view of the Chinese, such virtual production can boost the GDP significantly, but it also fails to efficiently enhance people's living standards.
In fact, no country's GDP is incorrect. It's just that the GDP compositions of different countries are different, and there are parts where the "data looks better than the reality" in each case. Generally speaking, the quality of China's GDP is not bad, and people's actual material living standards should be higher than those of other countries with similar GDP levels. (This is a conclusion drawn from real - world observations.The PPP price index submitted by the Communist Party of China is too high to be of much reference value.)
But I do agree that China's current policy of overemphasizing production need to be overhauled.
[–]Skandling -2 points-1 points0 points  (4 children)
No, GDP in China means something different to other countries. Here e.g. is a recent explainer by Michael Pettis
In China, GDP growth targets are not set in response to economic conditions but rather to politically determined goals. Unlike in most market economies, where GDP growth is the result of aggregated private and public sector decisions that vary according to changes in underlying conditions, China’s growth target is a policy directive. It serves as an input into government planning rather than a neutral forecast.
The Chinese government sets a growth target each year and then ensures that the economy achieves it, even if doing so requires aggressive state intervention. If organic growth falls short, state-owned enterprises, local governments, and certain favored private firms—especially in strategic sectors such as artificial intelligence, electric vehicles, and clean energy—are directed to step in. These actors operate under soft budget constraints, meaning they essentially have access to unlimited credit and are not subject to traditional bankruptcy risks.
This is not at all controversial. It's not only the view of western commentators, but those in China like Pettis. Even the Communist Party in China understands it, though they discuss it more elliptically as the "quality" of growth:
Chinese policymakers are not unaware of this issue. In fact, they have increasingly emphasized the importance of “high-quality” growth—a term used to distinguish between growth driven by real demand and productivity versus growth driven by excessive borrowing and construction. In 2024, the Qiushi journal (the Communist Party’s top theoretical outlet) once again underscored the need to shift away from overreliance on debt-fueled investment toward growth rooted in domestic consumption.
Even Xi Jinping has addressed this in speeches. It's not a fringe anti-China idea.
[–]shatnersbassoonpath 2 points3 points4 points  (3 children)
Ok, you are misreading Pettis. He is not saying that the formula for how gdp is calculated is different in China, he saying that their political economy is very different (which is not in dispute). Western economies are generally consumption driven, In China it is through state driven investment - in the latter there is much more space for the state to control the pace of growth (helped by things like capital controls). There are a couple of methods to calculate gdp: the expenditure method which includes all of the spending in an economy including investment, all of the income in an economy (i.e. Wages and profits), and gross production - the result of all these should theoretically be the same (in practise there are always some small differences). The expenditure method (the one i gave you the formula for in the previous answer), is the one that is usually used for the headline gdp rate in most countries.
[–]Skandling 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
He does say it's different.
GDP growth means something fundamentally different in China than in most countries.
The formula isn't the important part it's what it measures. Again, it's not controversial that China measures GDP differently, by including growth that other countries don't, "low-quality" growth. Leaders up to and including Xi Jinping now know they need to transition to "high-quality" growth:
Chinese President Xi Jinping, also general secretary of the Communist Party of China Central Committee and chairman of the Central Military Commission, has on many occasions stressed the significance of high-quality growth and elaborated on some key tasks.
[–]AutoModerator[M] 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
A media platform referenced in this post/comment is funded by a government which may retain editorial control, and as a result may be biased on some issues. Please seek external verification or context as appropriate.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
[–]shatnersbassoonpath 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
No, you're misrepresenting Pettis — who is a serious Keynesian economist and obviously knows the GDP identity (which is below Econ 101 level).
You wrote: "In China though the government includes investment spending, an input. This is not only misleading, making GDP look higher than it should be, making it not comparable with other countries."
But that’s simply incorrect. All countries include investment spending in GDP — that’s definitional. The GDP identity (Y = C + I + G + (X − M)) includes investment spending by design.
The discussion around "high-quality" versus "low-quality" growth relates to whether the investment is productive — i.e. whether it sustainably increases future output. That's an important debate, but it's entirely separate from the issue of measurement consistency.
Pettis’s point about the Chinese government being able to set the growth rate is a political economy one. In a relatively closed economy with capital controls, like China’s, the state can adjust components like G (government spending) to target a desired Y (growth rate). In a more open economy, this would be constrained — for instance, by capital flight or exchange rate pressures — but China’s capital controls mitigate those feedback effects.
[–]Biased_Media 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
Dude, just google what the formula for GDP is. The person above you is correct.
Do you think the GDP of the US is accurate when it includes the exorbitant price/cost of healthcare, extremely high cost of education, government spending (particularly military spending), and financial services (which is, arguably, the most smoke and mirrors of all inputs)? If you don't have a problem with how the US GDP is measured, then you shouldn't with China's, which at least is less propped up by the finance industry.
[–]Skandling 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Thanks for the advice, but I think the views of experts like Pettis, and authorities like Xi, are correct here.
[–]Biased_Media 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
So you'd rather listen to one person's opinion instead of researching the actual definition of an economic measure? My college degree was in economics, at a top school, and I can safely say that you're wrong.
[–]Chinksta 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
"The general macroeconomic indicators of China's economy seems good. 5% GDP growth, sub 1% inflation, employment on the rise and manufacturing/exports sector always seem positive since the covid bounce." - It never did. The rebound was shifted elsewhere (through different Asia cities and also Hong Kong) and now China has to make it up through paying USD to be in business with Middle East.
Problem is nobody asked China to produce a lot of their EV cars and also new tech. The demand was inflated where now forced LOCAL consumption is needed.
Produced way too many solar panels? Don't worry, we'll shift bulk into Hong Kong and tell them to install it everywhere.
Produced way too many drones? Don't worry, we'll ask delivery service to adapt it and reduced the delivery workforce in the end.
Produced way too many EV? Don't worry, we'll ask the world nicely to BUY it.
Overall it's just way too much things that are uncesessary produced, which inflates a lot of numbers, where the demand in the end is forcing a lot of other parties to get it.
You have to ask yourself....does the world really need Chinese AI? Need more Chinese robotcs? Need more Chinese computer OS?
I can go on for on another topic regarding this but it'll take too much energy just to explain it all.
Here is the TLDR:
China produced a lot of items that doesn't have that many demand and forced a lot of other parties to "consume" it so it inflates a lot of indication.
[–]Biased_Media 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
You're forgetting that the production of these goods, even if produced in excess, generates INCOME for the workers, part of which goes back into the economy in the form of consumption.
[–]Chinksta 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I wish it was the case. The reality is different.
[–]Corkmars 0 points1 point2 points  (4 children)
What country do you live in where things aren’t like this?
[–]therealwench[S] 6 points7 points8 points  (3 children)
That isn't the point.
I live in the UK and things are pretty bleak as well and has been for a long while.
The difference is, the UK doesn't have 5% GDP growth, instead we ranged between -0.5% and 1.5% on a good year. Our manufacturing has been completely decimated, we make the sum of jack shit and we're entirely reliant economically on Greater London and its surrounding areas.
It makes sense for UK people to be, broadly speaking, pretty unhappy with the way things are.
China has seen growth year on year barring covid, it's key indexes are always positive and there's a big disconnect between on paper figures and the reality on the ground. That's what this post is about.
[–]Mal-De-Terre 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
China has reported growth. Key difference. You see shiny buildings, you don't see ballooning debt.
[–]mlYuna 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
But is that really suprising? We've known for a long time that what they report isn't accurate and only represents what their goverment wants it to represent.
China is still magnitudes better off then they where in the 20th century. They are MUCH richer now then they where then and so is the general population. The economy has had a rough time everywhere around the world in the last years.
[–]Corkmars 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Big number go up
[–]Poldini55 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
The Chinese economy has been heavily subsidised by incomes from exports. Though USA is only one chunk, EU also has to defend its domestic manufacturing, the dependency on China in changing from here on out.
On the other hand Chinese domestic consumption has always been relatively low, they’re savers and understandably so. And most importantly, economic data is patchy, not public or manipulated, this is bad for investment as it increases risk by hiding market forces. This is centralised decision making at the core.
The decline of globalisation is affecting all of us. But China is particularly vulnerable. They’ve got a lot of money sure, but they have an even bigger population to feed, it’s still partially an emerging economy.
[–]Sarah_L333 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Exports in China accounts for 19.74 % of its GDP (according to the World Bank), export to the U.S. accounts for less than 3% of its GDP
[–]Agreeable-Web775 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
This is why Xi will be stepping down this year
[–]UNPLUGGED-O_O 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
Haha this is a bold claim, out of curiosity what makes you think that will be the case?
[–]Zebrasaremagic 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Oh interesting! I live in America and all.the malls are just desolate here so when there wasnt a crowd in one of the malls in Chengdu I didn't really think anything of it because im just so used to it. The mall under Tianfu Square was popping tho! So many young people dressed in Cosplay!
[–]Sparklymon 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
You’re describing what happens when many people cannot find jobs for almost six years, because people with money are fleeing the country, instead of opening businesses and borrowing Chinese money to pay salaries in China
[–]Zestyclose_Grape_625 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
I was just in Shanghai, Ningbo and Guangzhou. I travel to China every year. It definitely feels different. The economic numbers put out by the CPC are most likely just propaganda.
Workers in factories are all 45 years old and up. No young people. It is possible that this drive for education has created a population of young people that won’t do factory work. They graduating far more engineers than they need. Youth unemployment isn’t talked about publicly but the people I talk with say that there are tons of kids out of college living at home and not working. We see the same thing in the US. The ridiculous drive for higher education has left a huge void in trades skills.
You take all this and add in AI and robotics….. the average college grad is a useless pawn.
My company is actively working to move manufacturing out of China. Everyone is. I am in Vietnam right now and it is hopping. There is a buzz here and everyone is excited. It is also a much younger population. Same with Cambodia.
The dramatic drop in birth rate will ultimately reduce china to a mid level country and may collapse their form of government.
[–]BedOk577 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
No young people. It is possible that this drive for education has created a population of young people that won’t do factory work.
The narrative I hear is that young people cannot find jobs in factories. So what's really happening?
[–]foreverdark-woods 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I'm a foreigner living permanently in China since 6 years and visiting China regularly for 5 years before that. Sure, I won't notice as many nuances as you would, but to me, the economic situation in China definitely doesn't look as concerning as in many Western countries.
Had a taxi driver in Shanghai tell me that after costs of DiDi and fees etc, he makes way less than 10,000RMB a month (which for Shanghai is pretty poor). People are stating that their salaries have actually decreased significantly in real terms since pre covid and that even government officials are getting their salaries cut.
Taxi drivers definitely don't get much money from their work. For shorter trips, the company maybe takes 30-50% of what I pay as platform fee and car rent/leasing. However, my salary as well as everyone I know in China is consistently increasing over time. I guess, it depends on where and what you're working though.
There is crumbling infrastructure that wasn't there the last few times that I was in China and when asking locals about it the response seems to be similar. 
China is still investing a lot into building new infrastructure. everywhere I look they are building new 小区, highways, railways, etc. To me, China's infrastructure is in big part very modern and new. However, I also noticed that it doesn't really last long. 10 year old houses already look like 50 years old, streets are consistently broken up and rebuilt for no apparent reason. For example, the street in front of my house was rebuilt at least 3 times in 5 years...
Yet, this could also be a regional thing. For example, Hangzhou has been incredibly successful in attracting modern tech enterprises recently and Shanghai has alwaysbeen relatively wealthy. However, but I see this also in most smaller tier 2 and 3 cities I visit.
"小政府没钱" - Local Government is broke. 
I, too, heard this a few years ago, during the pandemic. Today, it seems better? However, local governments don't really earn money apart from selling land. Everything goes to the central government in Beijing, so no wonder if the local governments are broke.
In my families city, a lot of the small restaurants that I used to go to have shut shop, around my families homes. 
During Covid, a lot of commercial real estate was left empty, but it's getting filled up in recently years. Local restaurants constantly change, some are more successful than others. Yet, the empty space isn't left empty for long.
Also, the local market prices hasn't seem to have increased since I was a teenager, which was decades ago. It was 13RMB to buy beef noodle soup back then for breakfast and it's now 14RMB. How are these farmers/small restaurant owners making money?
if the cost of living doesn't change, why should prices go up? Costs for renting only went down in recent years due to a surplus of flats (at least in my residence city), food prices went up only marginally (like 1-2¥). Compare this to Europe where prices for basically everything is skyrocketing now.
-Parents all complaining about how the pressure of kids education is immense. Extra tutoring since the age of 6-8, forcing them to learn a musical instrument because everyone else is, 10-12 hour school days since the age of 11-12. Gaokao was always a bitch since forever but I don't recall it being that bad for younger children.
Funnily enough, BYD which the west sees as very bullish shares the opposite sentiment in China. A lot of people thinks its shit (don't really understand why because being in BYD taxi's, they feel pretty nice).
I noticed more and more electric cars around me over the past years. Of course, almost all of them are Chinese manufacturers. My colleagues who at first were sceptical about electric Chinese cars years ago, have since bought an electric themselves now. 
Do they also manufacture electric cars in your home region or somewhere else (like Guangdong)? A negative sentiment towards electric cars could come from a structural reliance on traditional car manufacturing.
 Not a single person I spoke to had something good to say about the direction of the country. Which is a complete turnaround from 2018 and 2015 and prior. It just seems that people are bitter and miserable and there's an underlying malaise. A few people even openly criticizing the CCP/local/central government which 5-7 years ago was completely unheard of.
People frequently tell me that China is doing very well, it's so modern and safe. DeepSeek, Huawei, electric vehicles, there are so many success stories here that are brought up.
[–]AdministrativeFeed46 -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
not bizarre. totally expected. everything is completely manipulated and the numbers are faked, like everything in china.
[–]InsideWear -3 points-2 points-1 points  (1 child)
In my opinion, this does not seem to be true in Guangzhou. Reclaiming of villages has slowed down, but those people with reclaimed village houses own like 10-15 properties in Guangzhou and earn approximately 30k - 45k RMB per month to rent out properties.
Yes, unemployment is a factor, but the children of those families are also poorly educated and if you get 30k by doing nothing, why would you do anything at all?
A family member of mine went to an expensive university, she got a job within 9 months. Not 985211 university.
When I go to Guangzhou, I can live like a God for pennies on the dollar. Life in China as a consumer seems so much better than in Europe.
As for the overall economy, I think you should look through the downward cycle. If I see how much they have automated and how they have organized everything, it’s simply insane.
Logistics is way beyond your imagination from what I can see here if I compare it with shit in the Netherlands. My freaking bubble tea gets delivered by a drone. Insane.
I believe in building slow but structural instead of an one trick pony. If they are investing heavily in infrastructures, it would take a while before you see a Porsche driving on it.
[–]Tango-Down-167 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Things are cheap in China because the lower half of the population are living on or below poverty to provide the cheap food, cheap restaurant, cheap delivery. Sure once you and your family have made it then it will last a few gen of super comfortable living. What happens when the workers from tier 1 cities move back to lower tier cities to reduce living cost. The rent will drop, the population will decrease and price will inevitably go up for goods and services.
[–]Stochastic_berserker -1 points0 points1 point  (2 children)
Yeah this is definitely a subreddit for CIA and MSS agents. Nice try. You seem to know a lot about Israeli politics, US economy, Chinese society, Pentagon documents, Iran, and military grade weapon systems.
[–]therealwench[S] 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
I'm a software engineer who spends most of my free time gyming, cycling and running. But sure!
[–]UNPLUGGED-O_O 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Haha I love that people are so sensitive about their cognitive dissonance that they believe the dysfunctional American government manages to have CIA operatives making Reddit posts ‘attacking’ China’s economy.
What would be the point? They can’t comprehend that when they try and bite back with what aboutism, people like OP happily agree. Yea, our government is shit. That’s not the topic?
[–]Inevitable_Tap_1671 -2 points-1 points0 points  (4 children)
I was just there, traveled around quite a bit, visited family. Everything seemed great, I saw zero crumbling infrastructure, as a matter of fact, it seemed way better attended to than in the us. My granddaughter required an emergency trip to the hospital , my son and daughter in law and granddaughter were home in under 2 hours, great care and no bill. I'm so tired of the misrepresentation of how things are in China, what's the point of misrepresenting the facts?
[–]therealwench[S] 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Or maybe your experience just differs from mine? Were you talking to the locals and asking how things were?
I'm not misrepresenting anything, I'm ethnically Chinese and have zero interest in making China look bad. Literally my entire family outside from my partner are in China.
Do you speak Mandarin and are you white? If you are white or don't speak Mandarin, that tends to change a lot of things...
[–]jamar030303 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
my son and daughter in law and granddaughter were home in under 2 hours, great care and no bill.
Meanwhile my sister got sick in Shanghai, went to a major public hospital, and the care she received consisted of the doctor looking in her throat with a tongue depressor, saying "that's a bacterial infection, here, have some antibiotics", and sending her on her way. Was she home in under 2 hours? Yes. Did the infection eventually go away? Yes. The problem? You can't tell if an infection is viral or bacterial just by looking at it; in the developed world this would be considered irresponsible at best.
[–]Inevitable_Tap_1671 -1 points0 points1 point  (1 child)
Have you actually been to an American hospital lately? It's insane , the chaos, crowding , multiple hours waiting to be seen and often crappy care when it's finally your turn? Did your sister bother to object and ask for a culture? We can all contribute our anecdotal evidence and always someone else will have a different experience. Mine was good.
[–]jamar030303 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Have you actually been to an American hospital lately? It's insane , the chaos, crowding , multiple hours waiting to be seen and often crappy care when it's finally your turn?
Is America the only country in the developed world?
Did your sister bother to object and ask for a culture?
Well, the doctor said "I don't need to, I know it is", and she wanted to be home ASAP. Spending hours arguing with the doctor isn't her idea of a fun time. And if you're going to ask that, I'm going to ask the same- did your family need to ask the doctor for anything that wasn't provided to them upfront?
[–]BlueZybez -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
Its going to be different for every person.
[–]Additional-Safe3330 -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
Greetings to Shenyang :-) I noticed similar changes, but being from Germany: it’s still much more positive than in Germany here!
[–]BedOk577 -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
Of cos there's no money to be made, the billionaires wealth came at the expense of the middle class. And many have moved their wealth abroad to prevent confiscation by the CCP. So there's no money to circulate within China's economy.
[–]SoggyGrayDuck -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
This tariff mess is hurting China and other countries more than the US. If our media wasn't running Chinese propaganda sentiment would be much much better in the US. Everything is looking up for us. So much money is being spent in the US that would have been spent elsewhere. The people saying "we don't want these jobs" are insane and it means we have way too big of a safety net. Those are good jobs and pay better than the jobs a lot of the people saying they don't want them have today. We need to wake up as a country and I'm really frustrated I went white collar because my hands on work ethics would have allowed me to climb to the top. Instead I'm dealing with office politics as a middle aged white man and that's absolutely miserable in the US today
[–]Inevitable_Tap_1671 -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
Yes, I was engaging with locals, speaking mandarin , visiting family .
[–]meridian_smith -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
Thanks for the insight! Hearing directly from friends, family and word on the street is probably one of the best economic indicators available for China. And one that will only be spoken honestly with other Chinese.
[–]BDCH10 -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
China’s economy is transitioning from a phase of hyper-growth driven by real estate and cheap labor exports to a more innovation and domestic demand-led model, and that shift isn’t painless. Add in the crackdown on property speculation, the anti-corruption campaigns, and the push for “common prosperity,” and yeah, a lot of people who used to benefit from the old model feel squeezed or confused. Local governments are under fiscal pressure, land sales aren’t flowing like before. But beneath this discomfort, there’s a rebalancing happening. You don’t tear down an old engine and build a new one without some noise and frustration. It’s not that the system is collapsing, it’s that it’s being reconfigured. And people feel that before the stats reflect it.p
[–]SaltyRoutine4372 -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
Chinese CP need to change their mindset. Dump the Terroristan and join Russia and India to create a powerful block to stop US dictates in the region. Unless China realise this China is going to be doomed due its selfishness. Come on China be ready to forget and forgive, stay out of Indian Kashmir and other regions with your hegemony. You are already a large country.. open your borders and welcome from people from India and Russia to boost your tourism. Hope Chinese CCP leaders read and understand these...
[–]Debesuotas -1 points0 points1 point  (1 child)
Chinese economy heavily rely on exports. The main export market is/was US. The US market is currently shut down because of the major tariffs and uncertainty.
The increase in manufacturing and consumption is probably driven by the fact that the manufacturers need to reorganize their exports to other markets. The problem is that those markets are not bringing the save revenue as the US market was. Because they simply cant buy the goods for as high as the US was buying. Meaning that the manufacturers need to make more stuff for lower price. So the workers are forced to work more and earn less...
On top of that the manufacturers of the West are moving out of China in to India and other regions where the workforce is even cheaper.
The Chinese statistics mostly include only Chinese companies. While the western companies that provide a huge huge number of works in China, are excluded of the Chinese statistics. So its hard to actually measure the impact of capital moving out of the country. Because the Chinese factories are not really moving out, but the western ones are and they lay off the work force. That`s why on paper it might look like the economy is doing fine, because it doesn`t include the western companies in that data.
Also its worth to mention that China is not exactly the same as western world. Government in China provide a lot of services for the people. While in west a lot of those services are business based private organizations. What I want to say is that, the local economy in the west can counter the export collapse a lot better by compensating that loss through the local market, because the people actually bring in a lot more money through various services that they pay for. While in China a lot of that is being provided by government, which means its free for the citizens, which means the country is paying for that. In west, the people are paying for that and the country gains tax money from each purchase, in China a lot of those are being paid by government instead. So its very expensive to run the country. Especially when the population is so big and infrastructure is so expensive to take care of.
So yeah. It may look like the Chinese are showing the strong front against the US tariffs, but in reality tariffs are gaining momentum and damaging the economy in a serious way, on top of that the western manufacturers are moving out as well. Other markets are also closing up a little, they don`t want to kill their own manufacturers by letting in the too much cheap good from China. This looks very worrying indeed.
I believe this might be the time for China to introduce a lot of reforms...
[–]Flashy-Job6814 -2 points-1 points0 points  (3 children)
China is doin great financially bro. Wtf are you talking about? 99% don't live in poverty.
[–]jamar030303 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
Have you seen what China defines as the poverty line? Then have you seen how much stuff costs in any decently-sized town or city where the jobs are?
[–]Flashy-Job6814 -2 points-1 points0 points  (1 child)
I get paid by the CCP to say good things about China. I only go back to China whenever they pay me for it. It's called free market. When they pay for me to live there, I shall live there.
[–]jamar030303 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Well, that was surprisingly upfront.
[–]fartbraintank -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
Sounds a lot like the UK
[–]ivytea -3 points-2 points-1 points  (0 children)
Well, this analogy may not be 100% on point, but you get the idea:
During the last stages of a therophyte plant's life cycle, leaves, branches, stems - everything not necessary decay and die off to make way for the seeds. In other words, the 5% growth, even if true, does not reflect the pessimistic outcome of the economy because it is concentrated in a few selected industries only, like automobiles and chips, with everything else suffering
[–][deleted]  (3 children)
[deleted]
    [–]therealwench[S] 8 points9 points10 points  (2 children)
    1) Why is this relevant?
    2) Canada/USA isn't experiencing 5% GDP growth nor is it constantly increasing its productivity output measurements, industrial output measurements or its export measurements by significant factors YoY.
    [–][deleted]  (1 child)
    [deleted]
      [–]Comfortable_Wafer_40 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
      That’s the whole point of the post
      [–]Any_Low2198 -3 points-2 points-1 points  (0 children)
      Suffering from their own success. Personally i think theyll bounce back and come back twice as hard like the US did after its great depression.
      But they might need to win a war for that. Can they? maybe go with india
      [–]Born-Requirement2128 -4 points-3 points-2 points  (0 children)
      The people you spoke to who said the economy is bad are all stooges paid by the CIA to help instigate a color revolution in China