Baten Kaitos – 2004 Developer Interview

Yasuyuki Honne - Director (Monolith Soft)
Hiroya Hatsushiba - Director (tri-Crescendo)

—It's been four months since Baten Kaitos was announced. How has the development been going?

Honne: Pretty good. We're spending a lot of time fine-tuning things, very carefully…

Hatsushiba: We've spent a lot of time doing that, yeah.

—What kind of things?

Hatsushiba: This is a game where it's not the characters that get stronger, but rather the more you play it, the better you get as a player, and it becomes easier. It will therefore be a very different experience depending on the person who plays it.

Honne: There's no doubt about that. (laughs)

Hatsushiba: There will be enemies who some players say are a cinch, and others swear are impossible. We weren't intentionally trying to make it hard, but the opinions have been quite varied. To that end, we've spent a lot of time on the prologue, making sure the balance is right.

—What is your impression of the Game Cube hardware, now that you've had time to work with it?

Hatsushiba: Personally I think it was extremely easy to work with. It's very good hardware.

—Was it a good fit for Baten Kaitos' battle system?

Hatsushiba: Hmm, if I had to say, no, it wasn't an especially easy fit for the battle system. The reason is that you have to use the Magnus in battles right away, and we had to load all that into resident memory. Finding a way to cleverly manage that has been a big part of the development so far.

—I understand, Honne, that you drew almost all the map CG for Baten Kaitos. How did you come up with such a rich, varied world?

Honne: I always look at a lot of different materials for inspiration, but I've been researching and studying fantasy art since college. I've traveled overseas multiple times as well, and when I'm creating the world I draw on those experiences and memories, tweaking them a little bit.

—What kind of tweaks?

Honne: Like seeing the cross-section of a cut cabbage, and then imagining a town based on that shape and form.

—A cabbage?

Honne: Yeah. It has a fairly fractal pattern, so (pointing at wood table) it would be like putting a house on this grain of wood here, attaching a window there, that kind of thing…

—That's an interesting approach. Are there things in Baten Kaitos that were derived in a similar way?

Honne: Yeah… in the first continent, there's a town called Pherkad, and I was thinking about a cauliflower when I first drew it.

—Really?!

Honne: I started drawing from the outer green layer, very slowly and deliberately, and then I inserted a house in there. The overall structure is therefore kind of indefinite, and if you look closely it's really kind of haphazard the way it all hangs together. (laughs)

—I see... yes, that's a very unique way of drawing.

Honne: Yeah, it's a little weird I guess. (laughs) That is usually how I come up with things though. It's actually much harder for me as an artist to draw draw everything very deliberately, in order, part-by-part.

—What was the theme for the world of Baten Kaitos?

Honne: The Middle East was a touchstone for me.

—In the colors you used, for instance?

Honne: Yeah. Before we started, I had been wanting to do something with very vivid colors again. If you look at recent 3D games, more and more of them are trying to be realistic, and many have very boring, bland colors. So I wanted to make a game with stronger fantasy colors and beautiful visuals.

—Yes, the use of color in Baten Kaitos is very striking! There are abundant primary colors, some of them are breathtaking.

Honne: Yeah. Also, I would say wabi-sabi was a theme… we don't want our game to only appeal a narrow range of gamers—it should be something that even an older woman, or a non-Japanese person would find beautiful. We're creating a lot of situations with that in mind. What we're aiming for in terms of visual design, is not something that's hyper-focused on little details, but rather visuals that resonate with you at just a glance.

—I see. That reminds me of the clouds... there's a lot of variation in them!

Honne: Our effects artist did a great job there. Initially we just asked him to animate your typical floating, fluffy clouds, but as the development went on and the world became more fleshed out, he altered the clouds to fit within the mood of a given area. The planners helped out there a lot, too.

—So you first draw the CG yourself, then other designers add the effects to get the final result?

Honne: Yeah, that's how the workflow ended up. Over time the staff has become more and more independent and just thinks of things themselves.

—What are some of things you've been happy about with this development, and conversely what have been some of the challenges?

Honne: Hmm, I would say this falls into both categories, but keeping to a strict schedule has been the most important thing. It's incredibly difficult to hold to a deadline when you're making a game (laughs), and we owe a lot of thanks to tri-Crescendo in that regard.

Hatsushiba: Oh no, no. (laughs) Actually, we're hardly ever on-schedule ourselves. This might be the first time.

—That's wonderful. (laughs) Do you feel a lot of pressure working with each other like this?

Honne: Yeah, I think there is. There's a kind of alertness and tension we always have when we're working together.

—That sounds ideal.

Honne: I think so. As for things I've been happy about this development, the moment the project came together enough that we could actually play it hands-on, that was great.

—I can see how that would be a joyful moment for everyone!

Honne: Yeah. Until you can play it, you don't really know how it's going to be. And the impression it gives you then is very important. If you play a lot of games you'll understand what I mean, but that moment you first interact with the game, controller-in-hand... there are games that feel really good and those that just feel bad.

—The responsiveness, right.

Honne: So when we had the battle system working, with music too, and you see it all come together, that's when you finally realize "ah, so this is what the game will be like!" And that's a happy moment.

—Which of the five great nations is your favorite?

Honne: Let me think… Mira probably.

—What do you like about Mira?

Honne: I like the Confectionary Village and the Picture Book Village, and just the strange atmosphere. Up to now I've mostly worked on very serious games, so I couldn't include anything like this. Also, I like the experimental vibe we achieved in the mirror dungeon… you can only get that effect with 2D. That area is a favorite of mine.

—Did you have anything special in mind when designing the Confectionary Village?

Honne: I don't think so… just that it look delicious. (laughs) I requested early on that we have a village like this, and then it was just a question of where in the story it would fit… it was Masato Kato who figured out a good place for it. He worked on the story for us in a freelance capacity this time.

—The Picture Book village also took me aback the first time I saw it, just the gap between it and what has come before. Have people had a similar reaction to it?

Honne: Yeah, they have. When I sent the map data over to tri-Crescendo, they asked me "The colors are kind of crazy… is it supposed to be like this?" (laughs)

—It's a very fresh use of color.

Honne: Right, I wanted the colors to feel like something you wouldn't see in Japan.

—I see. In contrast, was there a continent that gave you a lot of trouble to create?

Honne: Hmm.. I had a hard time coming up with ideas for Anuenue. When I think of a southern country I inevitably picture jungles, as cliche as that may be… I do wish I'd been able to come up with something a little more interesting there.

—The Magnus battles in Baten Kaitos are something entirely new for an RPG.

Hatsushiba: I think when you set out to make a brand new RPG, you're permitted to experiment with things a bit, even if it's a little rough around the edges. It's a little frightening, but at the same time, if you succeed, it could end up being the basis for future efforts. So we dove headfirst into that challenge.

—Did it turn out the way you first envisioned it?

Hatsushiba: Yeah, very close I'd say. We added some things along the way.

—Didn't you find it difficult to explain to people at first?

Hatsushiba: Yes! Very much so. We couldn't just say "it's like this game" either. Yet somehow, Namco and Monolith Soft still had the utmost faith in us. (laughs)

Honne: Though if we'd come to Monolith Soft with plans showing we wanted to have 1000 cards—something of that scale—I think we would have been shot down right away. (laughs) They'd be like, there's no way they can make this…

—When I played Baten Kaitos I was surprised to see how much action gameplay there was.

Hatsushiba: Well, because of the way the Magnus are all lined up and arrayed on-screen there, visually speaking, it seems a lot of people have the impression that this is the kind of game you can leisurely sit back and sip your coffee while you play.

—Was there anything that inspired this battle system?

Hatsushiba: There was. We mentioned this at the announcement, but falling puzzle games. I personally love them and think they're very fun. I knew we couldn't just insert that kind of gameplay into an RPG as-is, so we distilled and extracted the essence of them and adapted it for an RPG.

—When I heard the combat was like a "falling block puzzle" game I kind of scratched my head, but once I played it I understood.

Hatsushiba: Yeah, until you play it, it's hard to really grasp.

—I think the moment-to-moment decision making, how those decisions all pile up and accumulate, is very much like a falling-block puzzle game.

Hatsushiba: Yeah. In the end, though, it's not purely mental decision-making. There's an element of reflexes, of how fast you can move your fingers.

—Yeah. It doesn't feel like you're using your head, so to speak.

Hatsushiba: Right? And I think in games like this, you perform better when you're kind of blanked out and "in the zone", rather than painstakingly analyzing everything. I was thinking about how much I like games like that, when we were making Baten Kaitos. It does induce a high degree of focus, while you're playing.

—There are over 1000 Magnus cards, and 140 different time transformations and special combos... I can only imagine the amount of effort that went into creating all those.

Hatsushiba: Yeah… the Magnus that transform over time, and the Magnus that can be combined for a special effect, are two fundamentally different mechnanics… but when combined they can produce nearly infinite variations, so we had to extract the common elements—in math we would say we factored out the common factors. That work felt like it was neverending.

—Can you be more specific about what that entailed...?

Hatsushiba: For each Magnus, we would take its time transformations on a vertical axis, and on the Y axis we would put the potential special combo, and then go down the line one-by-one examining everything. The more transformations there were, the larger those plottings got…

—I see. So when the tatenoko (bamboo shoot), for instance, transforms into the aotake (young bamboo) and then the tsurizao (fishing rod), those would all be plotted on the Y axis.

Hatsushiba: Then we have to think about what transformations make sense. Take the tatenoko (bamboo shoot), for instance. That could work for a bamboo spear. But only aotake (young bamboo) can be used for making a fan. It became a sort of gigantic crossword puzzle for us…

—It makes my head spin just thinking about that work.

Hatsushiba: Indeed. (laughs) As it turned out, we spent a huge amount of time thinking up all the special combos. We'd think of something cool for the X axis, then check it against the Y axis, then back to the X axis… that kind of thing over and over.

—Do you have any words of advice for new players starting the game?

Hatsushiba: I think it's best to not over think it. Just play. (laughs)

—Really? In my case, by the way, I found it annoying to calculate all the elemental affinities, so I kept focusing on the card's spirit numbers...

Honne: Ah, yeah, maybe that's not the best. (laughs) Didn't you struggle on the bosses?

—I had a lot of Game Overs...

Hatsushiba: Ah. But you know, about the elements… how far did you get?

—I played about 20 hours.

Hatsushiba: I see. Yeah, at that point, the elements are much more important than the spirit numbers.

—What? Really?

Hatsushiba: In the beginning I think you can more-or-less ignore a lot of those mechanics. But by the mid-point of the game, using elemental pairs skillfully is the most effective.

—No wonder the bosses were so hard.

Hatsushiba: However! By the latter half, the spirit number combos are stronger than elemental affinities.

Honne: Yeah. That's true.

—Who are your favorite characters?

Honne: Mizuchi, I think. There's a mysterious, elusive quality to her, something that defies common sense… she's easy to use too.

Hatsushiba: I think Savyna for me. She is more for experienced players, though.

Honne: I knew it! (laughs) She is difficult to use.

—In combat, you mean?

Honne: Yeah. She's hard to use, but if you can master her, she might be the most interesting character of all, I think. She has the most strict input timing, correct?

Hatsushiba: Yeah. It's very short.

—I didn't notice that. Do you have any recommended parties?

Hatsushiba: For beginners, I'd probably recommened Kalas, Xelha, and Gibari. You have to take the enemies' elemental affinities into account too, though. So I would say it's fine to just play with whichever characters you take a liking to.

—Which continent would you like to live in?

Honne: Pherkad, maybe… it seems like a peaceful, safe place. Truth be told I wouldn't want to live anywhere in this world, though—you'd always be in fear of the wind blowing you away and falling to the earth. (laughs)

—I thought about that myself! It must be scary to stand on the edge of a floating continent and look down. (laughs)

Hatsushiba: I'm sure it's a common answer but I'd like to live in Anuenue. The nature is beautiful and it feels like a southern resort.

—What do you think the ideal RPG would be?

Honne: I think stress reduction is one of the main roles that games fulfill, but I think it would be cool to make a game that rewards you in real life in some way. I realize that's incredibly vague. (laughs)

—Are there any RPGs existing today that have made use of that idea?

Honne: Not yet. I think you could do some interesting stuff with GPS though, for example. A treasure search that takes place across all of Japan…

—That does sound interesting! It might no longer be a "game", though. (laughs)

Honne: It's true that games are bound by the notion of taking place in a fictional world, but I'm always trying to think of ways to link that up to the real world, even in some small way. I haven't had any good ideas yet though.

Hatsushiba: For me, I like a game where after you've finished it, something about it sticks with you. Something that really makes you think, or something along those lines… something that remains in your heart for long after the game is done.

—What do you think is the most important think in an RPG?

Honne: Way back in the day, I was more about the gameplay mechanics. I would skip the event dialogue so much that I'd eventually end up not knowing where to go next. (laughs) Then I joined the industry, and found that many players enjoy the story more than anything else. Today I'm focused on finding a good balance between gameplay and story.

—It sounds similar to the issue with the controls and responsiveness... you can't know until you try it.

Hatsushiba: Yeah, if it's balance you want, that's exactly how it is. (laughs) I've followed the exact same trajectory as Honne. At first I put all the emphasis on the gameplay mechanics, but eventually I came to be influenced by the large number of players who are there for the story mainly. Now I try to find gameplay systems that enliven the story—that balance is important.

—Sounds like you're both on the same page then.

Hatsushiba: I think it's important if you're trying to broaden your audience past a very specific set of fans, and appeal to those who don't normally play games.

—Please give a final message to the readers.

Honne: Please feel confident buying Baiten Kaitos. I can give it our personal seal of approval that it's a well-made game.

—Because it is something new, I imagine many people may take a "wait-and-see" approach.

Honne: There may be some elements that take a little getting used to at first, but after playing for an hour I think you'll understand everything. So please take your time and enjoy it.

Hatsushiba: The market is awash in franchises and sequels nowadays, but as developers that really limits how adventerous we can be. With Baten Kaitos we've smashed through those conventions, reconstructed something new, and somehow gave it shape. In any event, we wanted to challenge ourselves with this development, so we really hope you will give it a shot.

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