I'm done being nasty. And an apology.

But I want to say thank you Matt Z because your post has been very helpful.  
We can disagree and still be respectful and kind.

I get it.  I have been attacked on this site too.  Took me completely off guard since I was neither talking to or about this person, directly or indirectly and man, oh man.  My first inclination was to take their head off, but I didn’t.  I just left DK for a while and had a long think about whether I was going to bother myself with this anymore.  As you can see I came back, but in my head I am playing by a different set of rules.   There are some people here who offer a unique perspective on things and it tends to open up my world.  So, that’s good. And a diary like the one Matt Z wrote above not only renews my faith in the decency of humans, but also reminds me that our emotions are fragile. 

I think that we are feeling short right now bc we are truly afraid of what is happening in this country.  But, when that fear comes out like a punch in the chops that doesn’t feel so good. Stick around, Northern.  We have your back.  Everybody:  make some room, Northern is coming in.

Thank you Rainbow.

It’s amazing how we say we are tolerant as Democrats, but when there’s a different point of view which doesn’t follow the group think we are immediately shunned and told we are GOP trolls. I love the president. I think he did a fantastic job . I wanted our president to be our party nominee this time around as well. However, I now realized I aired in  judgment. I was always praying for the best preparing for the worst. I think that time has come and me saying so on this website has provoked 95% of the group think.

I’m upset by the bed wetter comments and other characterizations that border on misogyny.

If you’ve ever worked with young children in distress, in foster care, you will know that bed wetting is one of the key signs of sexual abuse. For adults, part of the fight/flight/freeze system.  It can be fear of death, like someone pointing a gun at you or kidnapping/rape (speaking from experience there) or crippling health issues. So, anyone using that term, take a moment, and please think about that insult.

Why is there so much fear? Our daughters, in many states, have lost the right to have an abortion- even if raped. A trans person could lose their medical right to gender-affirming care (something that would very possibly result in suicides). Our judicial system is under attack, if not already breaking.

DT is dangerous beyond our wildest imaginings. DT winning the election would mean that there would not be an election in 2028. It would mean the end of many freedoms, the persecution of the most vulnerable and the end of democracy. And that’s just here (USA).

I understand why people are rallying behind Biden. Please understand that the reaction to the debate was pure fear. Reaction. We are all on the same team. We all want the democrat to win. Biden has great policies and years of experience. Those of us who are worried have been treated like we don’t like like or might not vote for him. That is not true. Very far from true.

Thank you Matt Z! We are a community and we are all on the same side. And our side isn’t mean. We aren’t hateful. We are the party of inclusion. We are the party defending women’s rights. We advocate for children’s rights. We care about our senior citizens and want the government to continue to support them with social security and medicare. We represent the true America “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! “ We are compassionate and inclusive.

I agree with you. I also think that as democrats and lovers of human rights, we have been so much abused by the far right (besides Trump, that includes all republicans that kiss his ass also) that we are feeling post-traumatic stress symptoms. After the last 8 years of having attacks on women, democracy, right to vote, LGBT’s, blacks, browns, you name it. We are exhausted and weary. Let us recognize that. It would be much worse had Trump won. I am glad that Biden is our President. I will vote for him again of course, the fight will not be over even if Biden wins, but at least we will finally get rid of the monster of Friday the 13th. 

This current crop of Repugnants are not our parents’ Republicans.  They’re not even civilized or decent.  They are manipulators, bullies and obnoxious jerks, trolling us every chance they get.  No wonder we’re all worn out and suffering from PTSD.  It is PTSD, and it was planned by the Right.

It sucks, we’re all exhausted from all of this mess.  Unfortunately, we have to continue on until not just Trump, but all of the evil right-wingers are purged from positions of power.  I too am very glad that Biden is our President, and even though he had a cold and didn’t put in a great performance during the debate, he’s still the obvious choice for sane, decent, democracy-loving Americans.  Those fools who buy into the media lies that “Biden’s too old”, well, Trump is only three years younger, also well into his senior years, and much less fit and healthy.

Good voting advice!

It has been my observation that people who have been chronically abused can have a multitude of reactions.  Weary and exhausted is one.  Learned helplessness is another.  And sometimes, they get pissed and rise up.

This shit will not end if trump doesn’t win.  It’s only going to be a different kind of problem, but it will be a problem.  I never thought in a million years this would be happening in this country.

Orphan, I agree with your entire thought except one sentence:  The judicial system is under attack.  I am starting to think that we are being attacked by the judicial system.  With today’s pronouncement about immunity, SCOTUS is not being corrupted, SCOTUS is corrupting. 

Just remember that Daily Kos is not a reflection of how most Democrats feel on any particular issue. Most Democratic voters wanted Biden replaced before the debate even happened. You won't see that reflected here. Even when the home crowd are rightfully booing the home team, the cheerleaders keep cheering.

And you have polling to support that?  And you now believe polling?

I’m sorry. Don’t hate me.

This is my concern.   Dems will sit at home like they did in 2016

www.cnn.com/…

www.yahoo.com/…

apnews.com/…

www.dailywire.com/…

And you now believe polling?

I believe it when you have polls over a number of years from different organizations all saying the same things. Unlike the diary at the top of the rec list, I don’t cling to a single poll just because it says what I want to believe.

Correct. There is no polling that says that — last week or this — except maybe on Un-Truth Social and Heritage Foundation

No, most Dems did not want Biden replaced.  

See my response to flyingiguana.

Democrats are like herding cats. What the Republicans do is divide and conquer and we let them.

I disagree with you, and NOT based on this site.

Please be gentle on yourself too. You’ve done the work of recognizing and apologizing, for which many thanks. Now let yourself off the hook — you are not a bad person.

Some of what looks like bullying is simply strong speech.  Just don’t attack people personally and you should be good — although this can be difficult to avoid when it becomes obvious that people hold some really silly opinions simply because they a) don’t think clearly and b) may be using those silly opinions as a cudgel to bully the rest of us.  So it’s a fine line to tread.  And sometimes you really do need to tell people they’re just wrong.  That isn’t bullying or having a different opinion.  Sometimes they’re just being dumb and need to be set straight.  I would draw the line at name calling because that serves no useful purpose.  Although sometimes calling out the behavior is _taken_ as name calling by the somewhat dense or disingenuous.

I am more and more convinced that this “whole Biden is past his prime and we know this based on that debate and therefore he should drop out and be replaced by someone that Trump can easily beat” was cooked up _before_ the debate and dropped into “political thought” in the days and hours beforehand.  If this is true, then every single person who thinks Biden should drop out based on what they “saw” in that debate is falling for this propaganda, and, worse, repeating it as their own opinion.  I do not know if this is simply bot-like behavior among people who simply do not understand a) the stakes and b) that Biden isn’t who the propagandists tell them he is — or if these are ALL professional pot stirrers who simply like their sound of their own voice creating chaos.  But I simply can’t believe that there are that many intelligent people who saw that debate and concluded Biden was about to keel over and that therefore we must replace him …. with Trump. 

This is based on watching the debate with clear eyes and considering the “news” stories that came out afterwards with reasonable skepticism.  So if my believing that all these people saying toss Biden to the side are either gullible idiots or bot-enablers than I _suppose_ that _might_ be seen as bullying?….  but I’m thinking, since my opinion is based on fact and intelligence, that I might just be right and that this claim of bullying is really just being thrown at the intelligent, clear-eyed people among us as simply a tactic to shut us up.

To be clear, I do understand the psychology of what drove people to this opinion — they make _think_ they’re being intelligent and reasonable.  But the fact of the matter is: it’s really hard to watch someone get bullied and not fall in with the bully as a matter of self preservation.  So much of what passes for reasoned thought in this situation may simply be a lot of folks siding with the bully to save themselves from being bullied.  At least that’s probably how it looks to their primitive brain.  So then the obvious response to anyone telling them that they’re not thinking clearly and that they’re siding with that bully — _is to claim that the reasoned response is itself bullying_.  Because, lets face it, their entire reason for siding with the real bully in the first place was to avoid the bullying.  So they’re going to be overly sensitive to anyone telling them they made a mistake.

But you keep on having your say.  These people need to hear it.

I’m not going to recommend this story even though I recommended the previous ones.  Because I think the message here is to back down in the face of bullying.

Aren’t you superior? 

Isn't this the kind of snark/bullshit that's the point of this entire diary?

I LOVE me some snark, but I often cancel my comments before posting.

Your comment would have been a good one to cancel. 

Well, when I’ve been told in condescending terms that I’m with the stupid group, I’m not happy. The snark is deserved!

I CONSTANTLY do that on here, sometimes my longest screeds. If I think I made a valid point somewhere in my rage, I copy and paste into a document of my own and reread it when I’ve calmed down or some time has passed (some things I will never calm down about, but time still helps). The comments I regret most are the ones where I hit the button twice without rereading.

I take solace in the fact that this site moves so fast I’m often the last one on a diary and very few people see my comments, angry or positive. (When I was new, I thought I was ‘closing down’ entire topics!)

I think a lot of people don’t do what we do, though.

Wasn't there for this particular pie fight, but in general...I think passion is fine.

It def crosses the line into bullying when people start slinging profanity and/or getting personal.

Especially when tempted to use the word "you" in an argument, I find it useful to check myself.   

Oh and if I say ‘you are’ or ‘you think’.  I can’t possibly know what somebody is or what they think. And saying that will only make them dig in. 

My thoughts on this debate is that we had one expectation and what happened didn’t match. 

The debate started on May 15, 2024. Presidential debates aren’t like high school competitions which have strict rules and time limits. This Presidential debate lasts from May 15, 2024 to November 5, 2024. 

I am riden’ with Biden, and I think he was fully aware what a pothole the debate would be. It was meeting the crackpot in a pothole. Now we are riden’ down the highway.

Oh and if I say ‘you are’ or ‘you think’.  I can’t possibly know what somebody is or what they think. And saying that will only make them dig in.

Well said, thx.

I’m not backing down. But I’m not going to bully other people either. I can tell them why they are wrong (if need be) civilly. 

Thank you.

I am on the fence about this.  If what they are saying is their opinion, then there ya go.   Is an opinion wrong?  Can an opinion be a fact?   I think so. Can a fact be an opinion?  Not so sure about that.    What if it’s fact? Now that can be wrong, or right, for sure. What happens when someone tells you that they BELIEVE their opinion is grounded in “fact” when clearly it is not.  What happens when it’s a belief, falls into the same category as opinion in a lot of cases.  What happens when someone believes their beliefs are “facts,” and I am just in disagreement about their entire string of logic?

More often than not I am just walking away.   I say OK and I go. They might want to engage me, mostly I think to tell me I am wrong, but I won’t hear that out of someone I can prove is factually incorrect.  As far as their beliefs and opinions are…well, that depends an awful lot what that is.  I don’t think I can really make someone see the light (acknowledge that their information might be factually incorrect) so I don’t bother trying.  And, if their opinions and beliefs are too far out there for me to digest, I smile and nod.  This person isn’t interested in dialogue anyway, they want to pontificate.  Excuse me, will you?  I must powder my nose.   Then I run.

Are you telling us NOT to believe our ‘lying’ eyes?

Biden had a disastrous debate performance and some of us don’t believe it was a ‘one off’. Biden is not the same man he was four years ago, or even two years ago … maybe not even six months ago. He’s frailer, stiffer, his voice is weaker, he often looks confused or out of it (look at real video from his G-7 trip) and he avoids interviews and press conferences.

Don’t blame people for being alarmed by this, I’ve been defending him on his age … until last month. I think his decline is real and it’s now too obvious to hide.

I would say it’s a given that everyone on this site wants trump defeated in November and will vote for a diminished Biden over trump, but we also feel that this election is way too important to be running a candidate who can’t defend or articulate his policies to the voters.

Exactly. Harris 2024 yesterday please.

So what if I say I won’t vote for Harris?

Do what you want it’s your vote

Biden called for the debate with a surprise proposal to debate early. Biden knew he would be debating a crackpot in a pothole. 

I’m still riden’ with Biden. And the crackpot is still in the pothole. The crackpot did proceed with lie after lie after lie with Gish Gallop speed. 

Biden is betting people aren’t that stupid and the Gish Gallop won’t prevail longer than 90 minutes.

Sorry, but there were NO SURPRISES in that debate. Yeah, trump’s a liar and a bully, but that was a given.

A mentally agile candidate could’ve called out his lies or at least defended their policies … Biden couldn’t do either and that’s a problem.

Hillary Clinton is as mentally agile as they come, and she didn’t get high marks after her debate with him; people said she couldn’t make a dent in the guy

He’s such a tool and so inhuman. I don’t think psychologically healthy (ish) people know how to ‘prepare’ for his unhinged narcissism. Or how to debate a fire hydrant.

Yea and exactly why I don’t think Biden should debate trump in September.  There is no point.  trump’s intention is to steamroll, bully, create reality, lie and use the platform as a rally.   Since there is no debate in the traditional sense going on, there is no point.  Biden can inform us of his positions in speeches and town halls.  trump doesn’t have a position on any of this anyway.   He is either ignorant and uninformed OR he changes his mind where it is politically expedient. 

Further, I am not sure why the President of the United States needs to share a stage with a 34x convicted felon, convicted rapist, convicted of theft, stole government documents and incited an insurrection against our government.  trump should not be dignified with this opportunity.

When asked why he won’t go toe to toe with trump again all Biden needs to say is I gave him a chance to defend and explain his policies in the first debate and he lied 30+ times and he didn’t do it.  Besides, he’s a felon and there isn’t much else to say on this point.  Next. 

^^^This^^^

But I simply can’t believe that there are that many intelligent people who saw that debate and concluded Biden was about to keel over and that therefore we must replace him …. with Trump.

Nobody on DKOS has suggested that.  Some have expressed the view that some of the US electorate — manifestly not the “intelligent people” in that electorate — view Biden’s age and faculties as a reason to vote for Trump.

Given that view, they have postulated to various degress that it would worth considering whether a different candidate would have a better chance of beating Trump.

Beating Trump, not electing him, is in the forefront of every comment I’ve seen here, whatever the opinion expressed.

Personally I think there is a case for replacing Biden, if the replacement was a very good candidate with high electability.  However, I think in practical terms whilst technically feasible, changes horses is an impossibility.  That doesn’t make considering it a thought crime, though.

Like almost everyone, I was very disappointed that the debate didn’t go well.  I am terrified of what a Trump victory would bring in its wake.

I have been slightly reassured by Biden’s subsequent public appearances, and the apparently small polling reaction to the debate.

However, I remain terrified.  The future of everything I value is hanging by a thread made up of the future health and cognitive performance of a man 3 years older than my pretty clearly bonkers mother in law.

But I’ve been living with that terror for a while now and I am starting to normalise it.  What that means for my long term mental health, heaven only knows.

Wow, you have made a lot of sense. Very well explained.

Hmmm.  I did not read the message as back down in the face of bullying.  What I read was here is a guy who got short with people.  He doesn’t want to move around in the world like that, so he is apologizing for his behavior, he doesn’t like who he became in that moment,  and telling us he is going to try not to go there again. 

Couldn’t find a snark tag, so...

This is based on watching the debate with clear eyes and considering the “news” stories that came out afterwards with reasonable skepticism.  So if my believing that all these people saying toss Biden to the side are either gullible idiots or bot-enablers than I _suppose_ that _might_ be seen as bullying?….  but I’m thinking, since my opinion is based on fact and intelligence, that I might just be right and that this claim of bullying is really just being thrown at the intelligent, clear-eyed people among us as simply a tactic to shut us up.

Sure, if you’re going to define your POV as “clear” and “based on fact and intelligence,” I can see where calling anyone who disagrees with you “gullible idiots or bot-enablers.” So calm, so rational. /s

Problem with your argument is that you haven’t demonstrated any such clarity. You baselessly assert it, and you undermine your own argument by the seemingly irresistible name-calling, aka abusive language or insults. You know, the thing you said you draw the line at...and then did.

Thank you for this diary. It’s important to remember that we are all experiencing the same horror, i.e., the possible demise of American democracy. Emotions are running high. We all want what is best, but we differ on how to proceed. 

Great post.  It’s good to apologize.  Passion is good too.

One thing I would offer is everybody needs to take their passion and actual put it into helping get Democrats elected up and down the ballot by volunteering, knocking on doors doing postcards doing phone calls. all the necessary work should be good if everybody took their passion another step and made it action.

I think that what drives some democrats to want Biden replaced is fear. The media and then the “debate” increased those fears. I don’t blame them. However, I am not by nature driven by fear. I am kind of fearless and I want President Biden to continue his good work. I trust the intelligence of most of the American people. We have 4 months to go, and Trump keeps imploding. Biden is our candidate and when the time comes, will we stay home and not vote because Biden screwed up on one debate or because he is old? Are we liberal democrats do that and make it possible for Trump to win? I don’t think so. 

I'm with you, DanielKuhn!

"I am kind of fearless and I want President Biden to continue his good work. I trust the intelligence of most of the American people."

Yea,   we will stay home and not vote bc Biden is “old,” and the consequence will be to have an “old” orange turd as president who is out of control, ignorant, vindictive and  SCOTUS just gave him permission to do stuff under the guise of “presidential immunity.”

No matter how you cut it, we are going to have an “old guy” as president.   The only thing left to decide is what brand of “old” do you like? 

Part of my recovery from the deepest state of depression was sending an emiail to my respresentative telling tell to “do your job, get together we the voters and either work with Jeffries to get Biden replaced OR get him out there making speeches to reframe the narrative.

That relief was aided further by the fact that Biden gave a very very good speech in North Carolina the very day after the debate.

I believe it is worth reflecting on the simple fact that many of us are of the age where we have, or currently are, managing our way through years of elder care.  Some of us recognized very familiar and concerning symptoms during the debate that, to us, weren’t about a cold, or bullying, or stuttering, or dealing with the Gish gallop.  

We hold no malice towards Biden, but were shocked by our experience.  Many of us still are.  Deeply so.  

Thanks for the story.  Apologies accepted and deeply respected.

Peace and love.

Thank you for that. I come from a very similar place to what you wrote. 

This is true, but many people have experience limited to one or two elderly parents. I’ve cared for nearly a dozen folks moving into retirement homes or nursing care, and Biden is honestly fine. You can tell he has a stutter and was suffering from a cold. The cold will go away. The stutter is something he’s fought his whole political career. Not everyone starts a major decline at 80—my grandfather is 95 and still sharp as a tack.

Trump’s signs of dementia are much more worrying. He reminds me of my grandmother and a couple of my other friends right before their last declines, the way they would forget things and go on random word-association tangents. And he’s obviously much worse now than he was four years ago.

Everyone ages differently and Biden doesn’t seem to be a ‘super-ager’.

Some folks are great at eighty and even into their nineties and others start declining in their sixties.

There are no ‘aging milestones’, but the signs start to become more and more apparent and that IS what we’re seeing with Biden.

He’s clearly struggling physically and now it seems … mentally.

We ALL want to win in November and it’s legitimate to question whether Biden can carry the day based on what we’re seeing.

What you saw was an honest man facing a Gish Gallop of lies. Biden is counting on people being smarter than that and not being overtaken by the Gish Gallop of lies for longer than a minute.

Unfortunately this election will be decided by some of the dumbest people on the planet, the ... “undecided”.

A few thousand people in a few swing states will determine the outcome of this election and if Biden continues to look feeble, that could be the deciding factor for those folks.

Did you see Biden at the post debate party or at the waffle house?  Did you see him talk in North Carolina? Did you think he looked feeble in any of those situations?

I went and watched the video of him at the Waffle House (remember, the “undecided” won’t do that) and he still looked frail and as if he needed help … didn’t change the narrative.

According to reporting by Axios, White House aides went out after the debate trying their best to spin things in a manageable direction.  One of their arguments seemed to indicate that he does not do as well outside the hours of 10:00 am to 4:00 pm and that explained some of what we saw.  Saying that publicly indicates they thought we would find that more reassuring than worrisome.  Sheesh.

“Don’t worry, he’s just sundowning”

Don’t worry he’s just Gish Galloping. Just remember if you win a debate with the Gish Gallop, you have to leave town.

Hi Oh Lie Oh —

I’m just summarizing the WH aide approach. I think everyone here knows that Trump is worse both morally and cognitively. 

This may be a necessary conversation. But people are digging in to being right and not seeing the big picture.

All this sideeying dementia spotting doesn’t make me happy. And I think it is silly.

I’m not digging into anything. I don’t know what’s going on. I’m just saying the WH aides said something not great. 

Oh brother.   That was a not smart explanation.   They really need to get better at this.  They need to get better at non-answers rather than idiot “explanations.”

Amen to this. I mentioned it in other places, but my father has late-stage dementia. And there’s been a few times where I see Biden and I’m like, uh oh. Now maybe it’s because I’ve been in the thick of it and I’m just hyper-attuned to seeing symptoms and I’m seeing things that aren’t there. But it’s also possible that Biden is exhibiting some worrying signs and my concerns are totally real.

The important thing to remember is that no one on DKos (unless there are some WH aides working here incognito) knows for sure. 

The important thing to remember is that no one on DKos (unless there are some WH aides working here incognito) knows for sure.

But everyone on Dkos knows for sure that the crackpot Biden debated with use the Gish Gallop and lied his head off.

Yes, we know that Trump is worse. 

I do get upset that Trump is worse is the considered the best case scenario. They are not even close. Similar trips around the sun, but completely different experiences and completely different men. 

Biden isn’t as agile as he was at 25, but Trump was never that agile in his entire life. 

Trump has got us all on the tangent that Biden isn’t 25. Biden at 105 would be better than Trump at 25.

Trump at 25 was disgusting and he is way more disgusting now.

It’s not me you need to convince. I would vote for Biden if he were in a coma. But not every voter we need is going to agree with me. 

I know. I see them outside Trader Joe’s signing petitions to get RFK junior on the ballot.

Yikes.  The very idea of RFK, Jr replacing Biden on the ballot is appalling.

There are good Democrats who could replace Biden on the ballot if it came to that. I would prefer to vote for Biden, as he has the experience and has done well by this nation.  Too bad Bernie Sanders is needed to stay in the US Senate—he would wipe the floor with any opponent, even though he is about the same age as Biden.

My parents lived to be 96 and 99 years of age, respectively. My father’s decline only started when he was 90—he had had surgery to repair an L-5 and, unfortunately, the anesthesia  was a bit much, resulting in decline. Even with dementia, he actually knew me, my mother, etc. But I have pictures of them taken on vacation in South America when my dad was around 86 years of age, and they were fine travelling abroad on their own.

The person who is going to “inherit” all of Joe’s campaign money is Harris.  She is who is next in line for the presidency.  We keep talking about good quality DEMS who would make excellent presidents.  Absolutely.  I can name a bunch without having to think too hard. But, We are 4 months in front of a major election.  DEMS are not known for getting into line.  Where is the campaign structure for the new person, bc they wouldn’t just come in as a placeholder for Biden.  They would have to be introduced to the public.  To upend Biden’s campaign at this late date would throw the DEMS into chaos and the republicans will toast their good fortune when their orange mobster resumes his dictatorship at the WH. 

2028.   It’s coming sooner than we think.  (Or it may not ever come if trump gets elected.)

I get why people are concerned about the debate.  I was too.  But, what I don’t get is why this country and press have come out with sledgehammers and used them all over Biden these last days, esp. given his track record.  What really throws me is why trump, who is actually the real problem here is getting a free pass.   AGAIN.

We need to concentrate our efforts on pounding trump, the real problem, the real felon, the real incompetent fool, the real danger to democracy.    Just think if the public and the press came after trump for all the lies he told during that debate like they came after Biden.  But crickets.

I mostly agree. Our best play is always going to be reminding people how much Trump sucks. But if there is something really wrong with Biden, then that’s a big problem that we can’t ignore. 

I agree with your comment about Biden completely.  But ya know, I taught public speaking in higher ed for 37 years.   As I was watching that debate my heart flew into my throat and I was alarmed, like BAD.  But, the next morning after I calmed down I started thinking, how many times have you seen this exact same thing.   A few hundred at least.  The reasons are always the same.  Someone is off their game, they broke up a relationship, they got fired, their dog died, they got into a car wreck, their mom was Dxd with cancer, they forgot to pay a bill, they feel like shit, they stayed up all night studying for another class.  The list is endless, but one thing is consistent: under any and all of these circumstances the performance is always pure shit. Students and presidents alike.  Their thoughts are jumbled, they can’t pronounce words corrects, they lose their train of thought.  Some of them just get so flustered they burst into tears and run out of the room.  (Spent a lot of time in restrooms cheerleading people back in to give it another shot.)  Biden’s performance had a very familiar ring to it.  To me it did not read like an “age” issue, but more a human with other things issue.  One bad presentation does not a lousy president make.  So, I calmed down.   Biden seems to have hit the rebound so I am willing to see where it goes.

The thing is this election?  The stakes could not be higher.  We are all scared to death of what a trump dictatorship will do to this country.  It stinks like danger.  At least to me.  I am afraid.  We all want our guy to do well, but more importantly we NEED him to do well.  I don’t think Biden is a denialist, and I hope that he would say that he is throwing in the towel for whatever his reason, like Fauci, rather than be an inept president bc that’s it’s own problem (but much more easily managed than a trump problem all things considered.) I really think a whole lot of the problem here is timing.  If this were 18 months ago this might be a whole different story, but it’s, for all intents and purposes, getting close to election eve. That puts a completely different spin on it. Four months isn’t a whole lot of time to launch a new and  effective campaign, esp one of this magnitude.  You can almost hear the republican hate ads write themselves:   Look at those DEMS, can’t even make up their minds who they want as president. Do you want them running this country? 

If Biden starts appearing in public more and doing the rounds then I think the worries will go away. If not, then things will be bad. 

Totally agree.  He has to counter his own effect and the only way he will do that is if he gets in there with us (and stops it with all of the data talk and just talk to US. That was one of his biggest fall downs, he forgot to just talk to us,about him, about the country, about our dreams, about his dreams for the country.  And fuck trump who no one can talk to bc he is a shape shifter for one, and he lies incessantly for the other and he’s just not worth anyone’s time.)

I think it was a combination of factors why Biden did not do well at the debate. A cold, maybe pneumonia, Gish galloping with a crazy asshole, and the moderators don’t correct anything Trump says, remember, he said we can abort babies at nine months or after they’re born? And the moderators did not force Trump to answer a question when he did not answer the question directly. And everyone is entitled to a bad night once in a while. Biden has done amazing things in his 3 1/2 years along with his administration and dealing with a very slim majority in both houses of Congress.

I just wrote a story called “Joe...Be a Change Agent”.  It lays out some things that I think Joe can do to give us a better chance come November and after.  I’d love to hear your thoughts.

We’ve got to win this.

I am one of those people...but I think in my case, my biggest area of panic was that I realized the horror of what another trump administration would represent.  I see all our rights eeking away, and that scares me and I paniced which I think is a reasonable reaction to the amount of danger trump respresents.  And the corrupt Supreme Court isn’t helping either.

I just posted a similar diary and I’m going to leave it up because this is the mature next step. We are a big tent party and this site is more than a party mouthpiece. This is my most important source of news and information about reality and I want it to stay that way. Thank you so much Matt. 

Matt, I missed the whole donnybrook that you're writing about here, but want to thank you for the exemplary diary, which could usefully be taken to heart by any of us, in any pie fight.

And if I've been snippy to you on any past occasions in a mean way (which I think so), apologies.

🕊🌻🌿Matt Z🌿🌻🕊

Thank you. 

Thank you for your apology. I’ve been here since 2007 and I’ve never felt attacked for my opinion like I have the last 4 days, even in some comments in this diary which suggests I’m not one of the smart ones around here. I’m as scared as I was Thursday night but I am letting go of thinking I have a clue of how to go forward. I’ll have to trust the people ‘in the know’ to make those decisions and then work hard to contribute to the outcome we all want.

I’ve found it disturbing too. Been here since 2003, thousands of comments, I must’ve donated $50k+ to Democratic candidates in all this time, and this is the first time I’ve felt like my honesty re: the current situation is culturally disallowed. 

I agree….I saw an interview with Pelosi and she was very very clear that she often talks with Biden across the table, and he always is up on what the issues are.  The debate, as conducted, didn’t really present what he does day to day in the White House….nor what he is expected to do.

On most things, he has said and done the right thing. There are one or two things I disagree with the Biden administration on but that is my opinion and I know I am never going to get everything my way.  I am not going to let the perfect destroy the good.

Biden, especially when compared to trump is so far more “good” that it is beyond words.

Never underestimate your contribution to the whole.   Your clue might just be the one we need.  Keep putting it out there.  Leaders come from the most unexpected places, and are the most unexpected people.  

It's the sense of powerlessness, in a lot of ways, that's driving this. Powerlessness in front of an abuser, powerlessness to stop a lot of what's happening in the world. And of course, whether it's a legit concern or a question posited by right wing media to divide the good guys, powerlessness over what Biden is going to do. We can all scream until we're blue in the face but we can't actually make the call for him. And we shouldn't, but it sucks because it will affect us either way and we just want to have some control over something.

So I get it to a degree. 

The discussion section of DK operates much like other forms of social media, and social media can give us a false sense of agency. While it’s no X, it can, at times, resemble it. As has been said before, we come to DK for the commentary, we stay for the pie fights. 

{{Matt}} It has been a difficult few days and really not sure how much better it will get. Anxiety was already so high and now it is through the stratosphere. I have seen some conversations that have made me wince but I am just staying out of posts that would trigger me. We cannot stop people from having their points of view whether it upsets us personally or not. Stay strong you are a valuable member here. 

Good on you, man.

Look, we ALL want to win.  We ALL want to kick trump permanently to the curb.  Figuring out the best way to do that is not set in any stone, anywhere, and Biden’s performance last week made that route increasingly unclear.  You should not take offense to differing opinions or people just feeling their way around the shock that Biden and his staff put us all in.   Take it in, don’t take offense.  

Differing opinions are fine, and are encouraged, aren't they?  Especially if they are well thought out and well laid out.

It's the "Jane, you ignorant slut" comments that should be deplored.

Is it possible rightwing or Russian trolls are stirring the pot here? Likely, actually.

I appreciate the apology to all and the pivot. It makes us stronger.

For smarties on this site with the analytical ability, there is a unique opportunity to do a post mortem on how bad actors inserted themselves on this site after the debate into an existing divide and inflamed it. Bad actors have been trying to create third rail issues on this site for a while. I feel they’ve established a beachhead this year as we have a few third rail topics now. It seems like they bothside to get the job done. We need clues on when, how, where it is happening and strategies to combat, including new tech strategies to contain virality. AI type tools can probably tease it out new perspectives.

I think boosting Biden and Harris was a great success, but we’ve created a few blind spots that are weaknesses. Maybe as an exercise individually, flip the criticisms of Trump and see which ones has honest potential to apply to Biden as well. Save those thoughts until after this crisis has passed, so we can fortify later.

• Recognize it is up to Biden and Dem leaders to decide if he continues. Be patient and wait. I’ve had my WTF freak out and am ready to move on.
• Donate money to Biden and Dems.
• Produce content here breaking down each of the crazy Trump debate statements.
• If there are Biden Step Down signs at live events, counter protest with Trump Step Down signs right next to them. Maybe even make flip side signs? Pro Biden one side, anti Trump the other?
• Keep in mind that idle speculation can sometimes be a way of ferrying lies for the opposition.
• Analyze where, when and how bad actors feed virality and division via this site over the last few days. SCOTUS is about to drop more RW pain, another opportunity to divide us. This does not mean bullying other posters. This is a good opportunity for a fire drill and maybe new tips for authors and posters.
• Boosting Biden should not mean leaving weaknesses underestimated. We should acknowledge them and incorporate as a truth, like his stutter. Be up front and honest. The lead up to the debate overhyped Biden as a superstar, making his fall a cliff. I believe we need to remain the underdog to beat Trump. (Biden “can” win, not “will”.)

Excellent comment! 

The reason why the vitriol is because democracy is literally on the line. People living outside the conservative media bubble know that Trump is the cult leader of today’s fascism. Both sides of the argument know this. They disagree on how to stop fascism from taking over the country. I’m fearful that if we lose this election, because I’ve been using my real name on this site, I’ll be sent to a concentration camp.

Most of DK and half the country will be with you, Edward Song! 

Entire states will become camps.

Step #1 = GOTV

Step #2 = Real accountability

Step #3 = Rebuild and establish trust/engagement for the future survival of life and planet

I hear you, Edward Song! That fear has also washed over me. But I decided to stand in my truth anyway and I feel stronger for my decision. 

🌊 Biden & Harris 🌊