The Awful Vulnerability of Natalie and Noah
In episode 6 of Witch Trials, we heard from trans people for the first time, and they broke my heart.
by Evan Urquhart
In the 6th episode of the Witch Trials of J. K. Rowling we get a little more than an hour to hear the perspective of two trans people, Natalie Wynn who makes videos for YouTube under the name ContraPoints, and Noah, a 17-year-old transmasculine kid.
(If you’re interested in our coverage of earlier episodes, you can find all of it here.)
At long last we get hear, briefly, that a gender recognition certificate has no bearing whatsoever on where you go to the bathroom, or on the use of any single sex space, because women are not required to show their birth certificates to gain access to them.
Wynn mentions this briefly to Phelps-Roper and the conversation about whether J. K. Rowling is a bigot continues on. The likelihood that Rowling, who is not stupid, knows full well she has made false claims about GRCs is not raised.
The conversation between Wynn and Phelps-Roper is perhaps most compelling when Wynn attempts to humanize isolated trans people online, including those who participated in incidents when Wynn herself was harassed. She speaks about how painful this harassment was for her without dehumanizing or scapegoating members of the trans community, and neither apologizes for nor seeks to excuse the comments that led to the pile-ons she went through. The point she’s makng is that trans people are isolated, rejected by friends and family, under vicious attack by right wing politicians, and yes, that does mean they can get a bit tetchy sometimes.
The portion of the interview where Wynn explains why J. K. Rowling’s comments have been bigoted and harmful are somewhat less compelling, and it’s hard to know why. I’m tempted to put it down to unfriendly editing, but it could have been that the rapport between Phelps-Roper and Wynn led Wynn to give Rowling more benefit of the doubt than she deserves, or that Wynn is genuinely torn and believes Rowling’s actions have always been in good faith. Whatever the reason, she doesn’t go hard after things Rowling has done that were mocking and cruel (such as mocking the idea that some people who menstruate are not women), never raises the question of whether Rowling should also be held accountable for the harassment of trans people by transphobes if she’s going to hold the trans rights movement accountable for her harassment, or points out that it stretches credulity that Rowling is acting in good faith when some of the things she says are outright lies.
None of this should be taken as saying that Wynn does a bad job. There are places she might have put forward a stronger argument with the benefit of hindsight, but Wynn is arguing on hostile ground, for all of our lives. No one should have to do that.
No one should have to plead for trans lives on Megan Phelps-Roper’s podcast, least of all a 17-year-old kid. But that’s exactly what happens in the second half of this episode of Witch Trials, where Phelps-Roper interviews Noah, a 17-year-old transmasculine youth.
Noah’s story contains elements that are relevant to J. K. Rowling’s belief in the conspiracy theory that a social contagion is causing large numbers of cis girls to believe they are boys. He was not highly masculine as a child and continues to have interests that are coded as more feminine, his gender dysphoria began around puberty, and he had co-occurring psychiatric symptoms including anxiety, thoughts of suicide, and self-harm. He explains to Phelps-Roper how slow the process of starting medical transition was, how long it took for his parents to agree that medical steps were necessary, how different his gender dysphoria was from the discomfort a girl might feel with puberty, and how much better he feels now that he’s been able to access medical care.
Throughout the interview Noah bends over backwards to validate the concerns of people like Rowling, insist that detransition experiences are important to take into consideration, and advocate for other youth to have access to the sort of slow, careful process of discerning the right treatment that he and his family went through. He also openly idolizes J. K. Rowling herself, and talks about how he envisions her coming to realize she was wrong and embrace transmasculine youth like himself.
Noah is articulate, careful, moderate, extremely well-informed, and I found it excrutiating to listen to him. A 17-year-old should not have to carry the weight of Abigail Shrier’s Irreversible Damage, a book he references by name, on his shoulders. He shouldn’t have to plead for his own humanity and the humanity of the transmasculine youth J. K. Rowling cruelly calls girls.
The Witch Trials of J. K. Rowling gives Noah about half an hour, in the fifth episode of a podcast which spent the previous two weeks uncritically amplfying outright lies about trans people and trans youth, to plead for his life, in a country where the healthcare he credits with saving his life is being banned in state after state. He does it beautifully, but it is unbearably ugly that a child would be in this position at all.
Comments (8)
I found this post wanting to read more about the articulate Noah who is more poised and intelligent than 99% of the population.
I actually teared up.
I have found the Trans hate of late bat shit crazy - the toilet argument the most ridiculous petty nonsense I have heard. Can’t believe politicians have nothing better to do than make people feel ostracised and outcast.
I listened to the podcast out if interest more about Phelps-Roper then JK Rowling and my overall thought is she is trying to say if you demonise people who articulate opinions you find abhorrent it just drives people to extremes and gentle persuasion is better - it can take years but seeds of good new time to grow.
I can relate to this being brought up that homosexual are evil, a teacher once started a discussion about it in class when I was 14. She mainly asked why people felt they way they do and others stated differing opinions. It planted the first seeds of critical thinking that blossomed as I grew up. It took time and many positive discussions politely disagreeing with me to change my mind.
This podcast might now change JK Rowlings mind but it could plant seeds of thought for change in many hearts especially Noah and Natalie who were awesome.
If Noah can be optimistic, hopeful and hold himself up high in the face of public scrutiny, then it’s actually not your duty to be angry on his behalf. It was a beautiful episode, a glowing reference for the trans community. I think that should be celebrated, because that sort of maturity wins over people better than vicious critiques and judgement on a blog post.
Wynn explicitly says in the interview that she believes JKR is NOT acting in good faith. I don’t know you’ve misrepresented that here.
You're completely correct. I was trying to capture the tone of the interview, which Phelps really keeps in this realm of imagining Rowling is acting in good faith and having Wynn argue from that perspective, but Wynn does say she doesn't believe Rowling IS acting in good faith, and you're right to have pointed it out.
> This podcast is a vanity project by Phelps-Roper. She wants to believe bigots can be redeemed because that would validate her specifically.
Ironically, all she has really done is show how superficial her "redemption" was this whole time. She rejected the rudeness of her family, not their bigotry.
I'm sorry but that's a horrible and concerningly narrow-minded thing to say. It's normal for most people to be confused about trans identity, it's something we literally only started to talk about seriously about ten years ago, doesn't mean they're transphobic, again, most people are just kind of confused. Arguing that bigots can never change seems to imply somehow that they are subhuman and don't have the same capacity for critical thinking even if later exposed to different ideas, under the right circumstances and especially by people who can command their respect while still challenging their views. That is extremely dehumanising, completely ignores why those people grew to hold up such ideas, and worst of all shows a complete unawareness of the fact that most of us would have thought just the same if we'd been raised with the same influences. I think it's actually incredibly unlikely that people who seem to think that people with different ideas (even harmful ones) belong to a separate, lowly class would have escaped bigotry in the first place. Othering is the driving force behind bigotry.
**TERF's "valid concerns" can only be satisfied with total removal of trans people from public spaces. They will never stop having "valid concerns" until their political project is completed.
This podcast is a vanity project by Phelps-Roper. She wants to believe bigots can be redeemed because that would validate her specifically.
Phelps-Roper did not investigate Rowling's actions or beliefs. If she did, she would know that Rowling's "valid concerns" are a justification for her feeling that trans people are icky and predatory. The GRA fight was a perfect example. Rowling's funding of a trans-exclusionary domestic violence shelter is another example.
And Phelps-Roper teases her next episode where she presents Natalie's and Noah's thoughts to Rowling. But it makes NO DIFFERENCE. Rowling is NOT interested in dialogue. She has had plenty of opportunities.
Rowling was liking transphobic tweets YESTERDAY. So this obviously didn't work.
I hope someone sees this. The TERF movement has done incredible damage to my psyche. By dismissing my thoughts/experiences as delusions and fetishes, TERFs make me feel like I constantly have to justify myself.
>If she did, she would know that Rowling's "valid concerns" are a justification for her feeling that trans people are icky and predatory. The GRA fight was a perfect example. Rowling's funding of a trans-exclusionary domestic violence shelter is another example.
I have trouble reading this and believing you really listened to this podcast. It's becoming apparent that the extreme side of your argument truly cannot see how harm could potentially come of this. It's like you're not even willing to entertain the thought.
>I hope someone sees this. The TERF movement has done incredible damage to my psyche. By dismissing my thoughts/experiences as delusions and fetishes, TERFs make me feel like I constantly have to justify myself.
I have no doubt there are TERFs like this. Like your extreme views, they represent the extreme view of their side. The truth and the majority are in the middle. If you are not passing, people will not accept you as passing, that is the unfair reality. There is unfairness everywhere in the world, and you can either rise above, or let your thoughts and anxieties drag you down.