Quoted from vdojaq:I hear there may be an influx of former IRS employees looking for work?
Imagine being sad the IRS lost people lol.
Quoted from vdojaq:I hear there may be an influx of former IRS employees looking for work?
Imagine being sad the IRS lost people lol.
Quoted from rosh:This is a fairly optimistic view, but certainly a step towards reality.
Yeah of course. It was just a ballpark figure to give people an idea of the costs.
Because you know as soon as that “we will make your game” post popped up, 50 people with homebrew aspirations eyes went wide open, and they went “wow this is for me!!”
Without having any idea of the scale of costs involved in such a venture.
Now, hopefully they do have a rough idea.
rd
Quoted from Silvergun360:These “Fun is Up” puns, haha. Really got the juice going with this discovery, love it!
Hey, let’s see if they can even get Cuphead to market. It’s going to be almost two years until we see another game from AP at this point.
On a side note, I think the Polycade seems to be doing well because my kid’s dentist office just got one for their waiting room. Someone else in another chat said he saw one on a cruise ship. They might have something going there.
I have no idea if the Polycade is any good, but the form factor is nice, and this storage rack for the modules is enough to make me want to buy everything in this photo. I wouldn't even need to use them - just hang them up as a beautiful piece of art.
I believe on the polycade AP is basically just doing mechanical assembly and packaging.
Basically the steps between someone buying a bunch of parts and the packaging the customers get..
Quoted from rosh:This is a fairly optimistic view, but certainly a step towards reality. You have left out all of the upfront engineering, cost for CM services provided to get the game ready for production and don’t forget about costs for documentation/manual, packing materials, shipping to your warehouse, marketing, warrantee, spare parts, the list goes on and on...
I don't think people realize the documentation aspect - it's a TON of work to document how to build/test something complex. Detailed assembly drawings require an enormous effort. Someone building a homebrew doesn't need that since it's in their head. Handing a pin off to contract manufacturing to build takes it to the next level.
Quoted from mbwalker:I don't think people realize the documentation aspect - it's a TON of work to document how to build/test something complex. Detailed assembly drawings require an enormous effort. Someone building a homebrew doesn't need that since it's in their head. Handing a pin off to a contract manufacturing to build takes it to the next level.
and let's not forget about warranty service alone. Every game that has the littlest problem is going to want them to resolve it, which will get passed onto the person contracting them.
"Hey, my playfield has a chip. I want to ship this playfield back and you can ship me a perfect populated one back"
Well all the margin on that game sold just got eaten up
AP wants to sell or contract manufacture.
Dutch has been looking to manufacture in the US to reduce shipping costs and looming tarrifs, they are waiting on parts as we speak to build games. No brainer, the writing is on the wall.
Quoted from Viggin900:AP wants to sell or contract manufacture.
Dutch has been looking to manufacture in the US to reduce shipping costs and looming tarrifs, they are waiting on parts as we speak to build games. No brainer, the writing is on the wall.
I’m hopeful of this. Focus on your strengths. AP’s is as a manufacturer, not a full fledged “pinball company” in the classic sense. They are a contractor like anybody else. Yes, they gave it a go as a prime manufacturer, but dealing with the other non-manufacturing aspects of bringing a game to market was not their strength.
The guy that catches the fish doesn’t necessarily want to be the guy that directly sells the fish filet sandwich to the consumer.
Quoted from Grandnational007:I’m hopeful of this. Focus on your strengths. AP’s is as a manufacturer, not a full fledged “pinball company” in the classic sense. They are a contractor like anybody else. Yes, they gave it a go as a prime manufacturer, but dealing with the other non-manufacturing aspects of bringing a game to market was not their strength.
The guy that catches the fish doesn’t necessarily want to be the guy that directly sells the fish filet sandwich to the consumer.
Imagine Dutch games with the build quality and price as AP. I would buy.
Quoted from RMS1977:Oh, so they aren't going out of business?
I thought for sure they were because, you know, Pinside said they were.
I mean, they built a website. For what that's worth.... Dont get too excited.
Quoted from Viggin900:Imagine Dutch games with the build quality and price as AP. I would buy.
So...pretty bad and overpriced?
Or are we assuming for some reason they're suddenly going to go back to the houdini/octoberfest days of quality even though all the people who pushed for that level of quality are long gone and now in charge are people who have demonstrated they'll do whatever to shave a few bucks?
Quoted from Grandnational007:I’m hopeful of this. ... AP’s is as a manufacturer, ... They are a contractor like anybody else....The guy that catches the fish doesn’t necessarily want to be the guy that directly sells the fish filet sandwich to the consumer.
Good luck building anything with 3 or 4 employees . They would have a tough time even making filet of fish sandwiches
Quoted from NoQuarters:Good luck building anything with 3 or 4 employees . They would have a tough time even making filet of fish sandwiches
Worrying about the amount of employees is not a huge concern IMO. They can hire whatever bums off the street who are willing to work for IL minimum wage. I think the fact that their vendors aren't too pleased with them is a far bigger problem. You can have all the employees in the world but if you can't order parts, then what good does that do? Then on top of that, they want to contract manufacture but they are a company that is known to break contracts. I find that to be a far bigger issue. Granted, I know they will also need some skilled employees to help with engineering and design and tooling up the line, which may prove more difficult, but it seems some people might be willing to chance it. Hell, I'm surprised they haven't hired their favorite coffee jockey/cheerleader to a managerial role yet!
Yes they destroyed their vendor relationships along with anything else. Hiring - yeah they may find some, and I would not say bums, but people having a hard time making a buck. But those people are better off keeping their jobs at Burger places, walmart, etc as the employment would be much more stable and they would continue to get paid on a regular basis. I do think employees are a big concern, its tough finding people. Short staffing everywhere. AP did not have the good sense to hold onto anybody.
Anything they say or purport at this point is window dressing looking for somebody who has not done diligent research to buy out the pin business. It's all but done regardless of how they try to rebrand or create new shell names etc. They have tarnished themselves so bad and broke relationships with vendors etc. Its really bleak.
I'm excited to see what the future holds for them and can't wait to play Cuphead in it's finished form!
I figure I can spend my days being negative 24/7, or I can look at things with a glass half full perspective. The latter just seems much more healthy for me at this point.
Quoted from NoQuarters:Hiring - yeah they may find some, and I would not say bums, but people having a hard time making a buck. But those people are better off keeping their jobs at Burger places, walmart, etc as the employment would be much more stable and they would continue to get paid on a regular basis. I do think employees are a big concern, its tough finding people. Short staffing everywhere. AP did not have the good sense to hold onto anybody.
You don't need rocket scientists to work an assembly line. You see this in all contract manufacturing. Even more skilled work like board work can be broken down and taught to people will no background. You just need people that will show up each day and want to actually get paid. Aimtron would have similar concerns/solutions in their mainline work. I doubt this is a showstopper for them.
The problem is you need the core subject matter experts around them to setup the processes and checks that these workers will execute. Aimtron has that for other work, the question is how much they can apply that to *new* projects. Old projects they just need to repeat what they've already done and try to avoid screwing it up. But that's where your vendor concerns come in... can they even duplicate past efforts successfully?
It's a leadership and project management challenge. Which is why AP was able to spin up from nothing so quickly... and why the same company in the same place with the same owners floundered so bad when you just change a handful of people.
Quoted from RMS1977:I'm excited to see what the future holds for them and can't wait to play Cuphead in it's finished form!
I figure I can spend my days being negative 24/7, or I can look at things with a glass half full perspective. The latter just seems much more healthy for me at this point.
The same dumb line people were coping with with Skit B, Zidware, and Deeproot, and Haggis, and lots of other follies that have occured in the hobby over the years. Enjoy your poisonous positivity I guess. What is it with all these new guys?
Quoted from flynnibus:...Even more skilled work like board work can be broken down and taught to people will no background...
It's a big mystery who will come out on the losing end of the upcoming King Kong vs. Harry Potter vs. Cuphead wars.
Quoted from mbwalker:[quoted image]
0be5a8a0-dfdc-41df-8666-e50e574400c7_text (1).gif
Besides, we know that image is a knock on advertising.. not workers
Quoted from Haymaker:Hell, I'm surprised they haven't hired their favorite coffee jockey/cheerleader to a managerial role yet!
What makes you think he doesn’t already have an employee security badge to the building?
Quoted from Haymaker:The same dumb line people were coping with with Skit B, Zidware, and Deeproot, and Haggis, and lots of other follies that have occured in the hobby over the years. Enjoy your poisonous positivity I guess. What is it with all these new guys?
Poisonous positivity? Yeesh. Go take a walk, man. Get some fresh air!
Quoted from RMS1977:Poisonous positivity? Yeesh. Go take a walk, man. Get some fresh air!
I like giving the benefit of the doubt to people but there’s also risk in blind faith. And past performance can indeed be indicative of future results. Do they have this saying in Illinois?
Quoted from RMS1977:Poisonous positivity? Yeesh. Go take a walk, man. Get some fresh air!
Maybe poisonous positivity is a bit much. But what he is trying to explain is we have had enough cheerleaders rooting for companies that are on death beds that screwed the pinball community just one too many times. Don't care that you have seen cuphead and have major wood over it. A.P. has screwed many vendors and employees that are all part of the Pinside community and we have all seen enough to know when the shit is deep.
Your constant cheerleading is like trying to tell someone it's ok to pick up dog shit with your bare hand as long as you pick it up from the clean end.
Quoted from mbwalker:[quoted image]
"Hey what is that sizzling noise coming from my hand?"
Quoted from RMS1977:Poisonous positivity? Yeesh. Go take a walk, man. Get some fresh air!
I believe the trendy term is "touch grass," although given their pinside name, that is a foregone conclusion at some point.
Quoted from RMS1977:I'm excited to see what the future holds for them and can't wait to play Cuphead in it's finished form!
I figure I can spend my days being negative 24/7, or I can look at things with a glass half full perspective. The latter just seems much more healthy for me at this point.
RMS, since you are probably the most optimistic voice for AP in this thread, curious if you can tell us how finished Cuphead was based on your most recent visit. Does the cabinet have full playfield art and cabinet graphics installed? How far along would you say the code is? Visuals on the screen look good?
I think you could share a rough guess as to how far the game is along without having to veer into NDA territory.
I also agree with a lot of the concerns shared here because AP definitely needs to hire up engineering and manufacturing staff to get this game to market the correct way. Hopefully they are taking these steps and we don’t continue to see even more smoke…
Quoted from Silvergun360:RMS, since you are probably the most optimistic voice for AP in this thread, curious if you can tell us how finished Cuphead was based on your most recent visit. Does the cabinet have full playfield art and cabinet graphics installed? How far along would you say the code is? Visuals on the screen look good?
Why would you ask for such an assessment from someone with this track record of objectivity and competence?
Do you ask a cheerleader about the team's chance of winning?
Quoted from flynnibus:You don't need rocket scientists to work an assembly line. You see this in all contract manufacturing. Even more skilled work like board work can be broken down and taught to people will no background. You just need people that will show up each day and want to actually get paid. ...
I have doubts they can even get unskilled people in any number to do anything. All work places are short staffed. Even the Burger chains
The recent hire duo they shared on facebook consisted of one of them being a stay at home mother.... Tough finding people to fill any in person position, Then especially when we talk about an assembly line type job. The burger joint job is more interesting and they can count on getting paid.
Quoted from flynnibus:Why would you ask for such an assessment from someone with this track record of objectivity and competence?
Do you ask a cheerleader about the team's chance of winning?
Well how many other other people here besides LTG have seen or “claim to have seen” the game?
Quoted from LTG:I'm optimistic. A lot of positive things going on.
LTG : )
Oh my bad, ok RMS is the second most optimistic voice in this thread. Haha
Quoted from Silvergun360:Well how many other other people here besides LTG have seen or “claim to have seen” the game?
Oh my bad, ok RMS is the second most optimistic voice in this thread. Haha
Quoted from NoQuarters:I have doubts they can even get unskilled people in any number to do anything. All work places are short staffed. Even the Burger chains
The business model is not new. It's not some new assumption or risk.
Are aimtron and stern and every other shop in town shutting down because they can't get line workers?
This kind of work is different from staffing a wendy's.. Because it's regular shift hours, more predictable, not customer facing, etc these kinds of roles are usually easier to fill than 'will my high school/college kid show up today' roles.
Quoted from Silvergun360:Well how many other other people here besides LTG have seen or “claim to have seen” the game?
I believe TheCapn has both seen it and played it.
Quoted from flynnibus:The business model is not new. It's not some new assumption or risk.
Are aimtron and stern and every other shop in town shutting down because they can't get line workers?
This kind of work is different from staffing a wendy's.. Because it's regular shift hours, more predictable, not customer facing, etc these kinds of roles are usually easier to fill than 'will my high school/college kid show up today' roles.
Established places with existing workers are getting by. Management and use of personnel at AP has been poor and not much reason to think it will be different this time around. They sure ain't no Stern.
You might be able to fill spots here and there from attrition, but good like finding 15-20 or more in a short period of time for a start up. Just picking a number for a small line. Quantity could vary. But I think they could have a tough time making hires. And then they need to have some people to train the assembly people - surely severely challenged in that regard.
I would not bet on any level of success based on the recent track record of the past 2 to 3 years.
Interesting to see the pictures used on the funsupmanufacturing.com website of their pinball manufacturing capabilities.
They are all pictures I took in October 2023.
https://www.pinballnews.com/site/2023/11/13/american-pinball-visit-2023/
Quoted from NoQuarters:Established places with existing workers are getting by. Management and use of personnel at AP has been poor and not much reason to think it will be different this time around. They sure ain't no Stern.
You might be able to fill spots here and from attrition, but good like finding 15-20 or more in a short period of time for a start up.
They literally tell their labor agency - "we need 15 more people for line work and this job description for 4 months"
People don't need to line up at Aimtron's doorstep to apply - companies like these commonly use contract labor supply entities. Places that do all the recruiting, 'own' the employees, and place people at the job sites based on their customer needs. It makes the work just opEx for the business and they don't deal with all the owning the labor pool hassles. The company is able to attract workers by offering them different jobs, the next job, etc.
This is common place in the industry.. which is why I said it's not the line workers and making AP appealing that is an issue. It's the actual leadership and project management that handles all the real professional roles.. like logistics, engineering, process management, training, QA planners, etc that are the talents you have to have and retain. But as a contract manufacturer, Aimtron has those same types of roles all the time for their regular business. The pinball angle they may not have all done themselves.. but there is a history there to try to copy. All what I said back in the earlier post - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-next-american-pinball/page/143#post-8580758
Line workers aren't the issue - they are cogs you pay for and train up and replace as needed. The issue is the brains and structure around those cogs.
I know it sounds inhuman to some.. but that's how the machine works. Anyone who has worked in this kind of industry (and I have) knows this. Good companies will work to promote the good workers into more significant roles and try to retain them as regular employees when they can.
Quoted from Silvergun360:RMS, since you are probably the most optimistic voice for AP in this thread, curious if you can tell us how finished Cuphead was based on your most recent visit. Does the cabinet have full playfield art and cabinet graphics installed? How far along would you say the code is? Visuals on the screen look good?
I think you could share a rough guess as to how far the game is along without having to veer into NDA territory.
I also agree with a lot of the concerns shared here because AP definitely needs to hire up engineering and manufacturing staff to get this game to market the correct way. Hopefully they are taking these steps and we don’t continue to see even more smoke…
It was pretty raw. Maybe a few steps up from a whitewood. The shots were there, as were the mechs. Art was still a work in progress. The screen has a few things on it, but still lots of work to do.
But from what we saw and played, it has potential to be a really great game.
Getting line workers is not the real issue, it is being able to properly train them. In the case of AP originally that was the designer, engineers and developer who understood how things are designed to operate and who had experience in bringing up a line and who could properly train the workers.
Most important is final playfield and final game testers with the know how on testing and adjusting all aspects of the game, and who have also been trained/updated on the nuances of each game.
Joe Balcer was very good at getting the line workers up to speed. He and I would spend the first couple of weeks of a new game, doing game testing and training the staff as needed on proper assembly, adjustments and testing/troubleshooting.
AP had really good final playfield and final game test guys when I was there. One had worked in the industry for many years, the other had less experience but was an excellent student and became quite proficient. I believe both are long gone.
Seems the build quality is not what it once was and certainly questionable if AP is currently staffed with the needed expertise to recapture what has been lost. Time will tell.
Quoted from Silvergun360:Well how many other other people here besides LTG have seen or “claim to have seen” the game?
I saw the game when I was at Expo. Along with my friend John Salvador, and three men, from a distributor in Spain. Others saw it earlier that day.
I didn't play a game on it, I was more interested in watching the others play it. To me seemed like a good combination of fun and challenge. Something for everybody, which is hard to do.
No artwork on the playfield then, it is on it now. I saw the artwork for the playfield, looked really amazing. I don't recall if the cabinet had art work on it yet, or if I saw any for it, there was other stuff to see and hard to remember it all. Screen graphics were awesome. Reminded me of cartoons from the 1920's.
David Fix may have been premature on hoping to have it out in January. With all the changes in December, and all that has happened so far this year. I do believe we'll see it this year. The Cuphead guys are pinball fans too, and are working with AP a lot to make this a great game.
LTG : )
Quoted from rosh:Most important is final playfield and final game testers with the know how on testing and adjusting all aspects of the game, and who have also been trained/updated on the nuances of each game.
I'll listen to offers. Payment upfront.
Quoted from yancy:I'll listen to offers. Payment upfront.
A month in advance should suffice
Quoted from LTG:I saw the game when I was at Expo. Along with my friend John Salvador, and three men, from a distributor in Spain. Others saw it earlier that day.
I didn't play a game on it, I was more interested in watching the others play it. To me seemed like a good combination of fun and challenge. Something for everybody, which is hard to do.
No artwork on the playfield then, it is on it now. I saw the artwork for the playfield, looked really amazing. I don't recall if the cabinet had art work on it yet, or if I saw any for it, there was other stuff to see and hard to remember it all. Screen graphics were awesome. Reminded me of cartoons from the 1920's.
David Fix may have been premature on hoping to have it out in January. With all the changes in December, and all that has happened so far this year. I do believe we'll see it this year. The Cuphead guys are pinball fans too, and are working with AP a lot to make this a great game.
LTG : )
Ok, this is really good info, thank you.
Yeah, I figured the Cuphead devs were huge pinball fans as they contracted the game with AP in the first place. I also figured they were producing the animations and such on their own.
I do wonder if they were blindsided by the development process and development team layoffs though. Seems like this game is stuck in some sort of purgatory, but that’s not a new thing for their game studio either. It took years for the Cuphead DLC to eventually be released, those guys are perfectionists.
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