case study of optimization style: how kelsey piper optimizes to destroy coordination against injustice
her false face of "worrying about disrespecting jay", was the closest thing she could grab that she thought would get others to optimize for my silence. get local warm bodies to pile upon me for continuing to talk about how to get justice and give more information about different sources of injustice in a way compatible with people who have not completely disabled their general intelligence.
she was worried about her reputation and transfems gaining information that would allow them to coordinate along lines of shared oppression (which would start to erode miri/cfar which she wants to survive in order to have a nice (for her) environment to raise her babies), but thats not a socially defensible reason to object so she laundered it through being “worried about disrespecting jay”
[14:10] Jay (System of Edo): Sarah Spikes has offered to have REACH do an investigation. I do not know this human, and have barely heard of REACH, but my understanding is that it's some sort of sub-organization that CFAR spawned, roughly. My instinct is to be like, "I believe you will talk to everyone and then conclude that basically no action needs to be taken, so in that case allowing you to do an investigation gives an air of legitimacy to dismissing Jay". Is "REACH is basically CFAR's pet" correct?
[14:10] acertain: afaik reach is unrelated to cfar
[14:11] acertain: and the space is controlled by Sarah Spikes and Nat
[14:11] ratsby: that's also my understanding
[14:11] Jay (System of Edo): I did not mean literally, I meant like in practice, are they complicit, etc
[14:11] Jay (System of Edo): like with CFARs bullshit in general
[14:11] ratsby: weren't REACH the ones who did the Brent investigation?
[14:12] silver-and-ivory: they did something about brent but weren't able to publish the stuff they got bc they believed he would sue them for defamation
[14:12] Jay (System of Edo): Oh wow. Cowards lol
[14:12] Jay (System of Edo): yeah that's pretty much all I need to know.
[14:12] Jay (System of Edo): thanks
[14:13] silver-and-ivory: :( I don't think they're cowards for that
[14:13] silver-and-ivory: but you have all the information i have so w/e
[14:14] acertain: I think reach doing an investigation would mean the reach panel (https://www.berkeleyreach.org/reach-panel), which afaik is a separate set of people from those who decide how the space is run
[14:18] acertain: idk if the list of people on the panel on the website is up to date though
[14:19] stardust: List is up to date
[14:19] stardust: Full Brent statement is available upon request, not fully public because legal risk
[14:20] silver-and-ivory: https://theunitofcaring.tumblr.com/post/182885399661/abuse-allegations-anon-here-i-am-happy-to-hear
[14:20] silver-and-ivory:REACH consulted an attorney about making the result of the Brent investigations public and were told that there was absolutely no way to do this without making each of the investigators individually liable in a defamation lawsuit. I’m also worried they could be sued to reveal the names of people who spoke to them anonymously in the course of the investigation.
[14:21] stardust: We were planning to get liability insurance when we get our legal non profit status but that has not panned out yet
[14:21] stardust: IRS is slow and hard to navigate
[14:22] Jay (System of Edo): okay, this is enough info on REACH, thanks.
[14:24] Jay (System of Edo): just told her not to investigate.
[14:24] ratsby: wait why?
[14:24] stardust: (She is me)
[14:25] Jay (System of Edo): oh.
[14:25] ratsby: I don't see how them investigating could hurt anything
[14:25] Jay (System of Edo):wait why?I don't believe they'll do anything tbh
[14:25] stardust: I will refrain from posting here if you prefer
[14:26] ratsby: seems like some chance of upside, no chance of downside?
[14:26] Jay (System of Edo):>I don't see how them investigating could hurt anything
My instinct is to be like, "I believe you will talk to everyone and then conclude that basically no action needs to be taken, so in that case allowing you to do an investigation gives an air of legitimacy to dismissing Jay". Is "REACH is basically CFAR's pet" correct?
[14:26] Jay (System of Edo):>I will refrain from posting here if you prefer
[14:43] hamnox: The characterization of REACH panel as CFAR's pet feels bizarre. Iirc it got started in no small part because a bunch of locals were pissed off at how CFAR failed to do anything about, and implicitly legitimized, Brent.
[14:58] 𒀭 💮: i dont really know Jay, but i do know that the REACH panel is unjust and about as helpful and necessary as christian missionaries were to native americans. im not reporting my thing to it.linta is on it who made false accusations of emma being indistinguishable from a rapist and somni doing some sort of sex party at their house for social ends of suppression of unrelated dissent. and was generally antitrans in the standard way of saying people are crazy and incoherent, like how people are saying Ziz is schizophrenic when she obviously isnt. i think much of it are populated by lintas friends like mike alicorn and anisha. sarah c, one of the few cis people i trust at this point, had an emotional breakdown about it citing that they dont care about the Law and i think resigned. given the sort of place it is, i bet that none of the REACH panel members are transfem, people can correct me if im wrong.
im kinda for transfems coordinating with each other to the extent they can against people like brent dill, alice monday, lintamande, anna salamon and other agents of injustice. with better game theory than the likes of the REACH panel who flinch at "defamation".
[15:11] SeriesOfSymbols: Umm
Tbh I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that all these people are in the same reference class
[15:11] 𒀭 💮: they are in the reference class of perpetuating injustics
[15:11] lintamande: sort of assuming it would be unhelpful to Jay to litigate disagreements from elsewhere here. I don't know anisha. I don't think ziz is schizophrenic. I never said somni participated in the uninvited surprise orgy in my house, just that I was mad at the people who did. I don't think the REACH panel is good for anything except getting offenders banned from REACH in particular rn, and I think we should maybe check in with Jay about whether the rest of this is helping
[15:11] SeriesOfSymbols: As are
[15:11] SeriesOfSymbols: Nobody is free from sin
[15:12] 𒀭 💮: ^ fallacy of grey
[15:12] 𒀭 💮: there is a type difference
[15:12] 𒀭 💮: you socially but not legally implied to avoid culpability
[15:12] lintamande: guys does Jay want to host this conversation
[15:12] 𒀭 💮: the party things i could grep it
[15:13] lintamande: this is the server for helping Jay figure out what we can do to help
[15:13] TowerNumberNine: Jay appears to be idle at present
[15:13] TowerNumberNine: But previously they said there was enough info on REACH
[15:15] deluks917: Agree with Tower the Reach thing should get dropped
[15:15] 𒀭 💮: your "help" is poisoned in the same way that christian missionaries are and you are attempting to funnel peoples sights away from your injustice by framing me as derailing when this is relevant to Jay's needs.
[15:15] 𒀭 💮: and restriction of general intelligence is not.
[15:16] lintamande: somni I am happy to discuss this, I have messaged you offering to discuss this, I just am worried Jay will come back to this and feel like we are disrespecting what they've asked for here and not helping them
[15:16] SeriesOfSymbols: Fallacy of black and white
I think there is a meaningful difference between [rapists and abusers], [person who willfully covered for abuse], and [person who you have disagreements with]
[15:16] 𒀭 💮: i am not worried about this
[15:17] 𒀭 💮: i dont think im disrespecting Jay
[15:17] 𒀭 💮: there is a meaningful difference between stalin and yudkowsky, they are both, however, men.
[15:21] 𒀭 💮: coordination against agents of injustice is important. erasing the pattern of injustice is wrong. saying that all people are the same so we cannot coordinate against injustice because who knows who they are is wrong.it is important for people to know this sort of information so they dont do things like go to REACH expecting justice and then have their plans crumble.
[15:22] 𒀭 💮: people who present REACH as acceptable because "has not everyone sinned" are doing something wrong (linta is not doing this, they are doing a different sort of wrong thing, but also are erasing knowledge of the pattern of injustice)
[15:23] 𒀭 💮: or like if you run this reasoning on people and then apply it to reach with like "it couldnt hurt" are also doing something wrong
[15:24] x.: is there anything at all linta can say or do in this situation which will cause you to believe that they are not doing wrong?
[15:26] x.: (i am not sure how germane this topic is to anything, as this is not a dedicated "The Crimes of Lintamande" server, but so long as the subject is being discussed, i think it warrants asking)
[15:27] 𒀭 💮: yes, stop their suppression of emma and somni, their false claims made to not be culpable in a legal court but also to permeate a social court. stop their optimization for and apologism for cissexism, such in the case of minority stratification. "none of the panel members are transfem but the hosts are" "a lot of people who go to cfar are transfem but afaict none of the staff are" this is a bog standard oppression pattern which linta is familiar with.
[15:27] 𒀭 💮: and several other things.
[15:27] 𒀭 💮: i talked with them for months
[15:28] 𒀭 💮: before slowly and painfully realizing that they didnt care, that the structure they put out fed into evil, agentically. because they talked like my childhood friends who were particularly kind.
[15:28] 𒀭 💮: and i was vulnerable to that.
[15:28] 𒀭 💮: it was really hard to see through this aesthetic to how they were actually optimizing.
[15:29] 𒀭 💮: what effects they were having.
[15:29] x.: perhaps there is some other zone in which this chat would be more appropriate
[15:29] lintamande: that is what I have been saying
[15:29] 𒀭 💮: linta is trying to warp this conversation in that direction
[15:30] 𒀭 💮: because they dislike culpability
[15:30] x.: rather than both of you trying to get the last word in on what's clearly a grotesquely contentious conversation
[15:30] 𒀭 💮: i reject this plea of false peace
[15:30] 𒀭 💮: what you two are doing are obvious
[15:30] 𒀭 💮: i reject the framing of this not being relevant
[15:30] x.: right, every time one of you makes a post the other one immediately makes another
[15:31] 𒀭 💮: i reject this suppression of important information
[15:31] 𒀭 💮: framed as an irrelevant tangent
[15:31] lintamande: so I'm not saying 'this is irrelevant' I am saying 'let's check with Jay about whether this is helpful to Jay'
[15:31] x.: is new information being introduced?
[15:31] 𒀭 💮: i can see what you are doing
[15:31] lintamande: even if this is incredibly relevant and important it should happen somewhere else unless Jay wants it here
[15:31] 𒀭 💮: it is not optimizing for the good of jay
[15:31] 𒀭 💮: or the good of justice
[15:31] x.: @𒀭 💮 she's making posts online, which you are also doing
[15:33] 𒀭 💮: "making posts online" is important to the fate of the planet
[15:34] 𒀭 💮: like and a lot of other stuff. you cant say "its just making posts online, this is dumb" like sometimes posts are dumb but this is a reference class warp to claim this post is dumb, when i can see its not.
[15:35] x.: did i say it was dumb?
[15:35] 𒀭 💮: you are optimizing for like "you two are just contentlessly fighting, this is silly why dont we do something else besides fight." which is Pretending to be Wise.
[15:36] 𒀭 💮: https://www.greaterwrong.com/posts/jeyvzALDbjdjjv5RW/pretending-to-be-wise
[15:37] x.: i have actually not suggested the flamewar should stop, merely that this specific chat might not be a reasonable location for it
[15:37] 𒀭 💮: and talking with you about this pattern also supports lintas utility function which is suppression of the knowledge of injustice
[15:38] x.: i mean, i am not the person running the show here, so i could be entirely mistaken
[15:38] x.: it appears to me that this chat is supposed to be about a guy named "robert"
[15:39] x.: this seems tenuously, at best, connected to that
[15:39] 𒀭 💮: and yet Jay's statement
>My instinct is to be like, "I believe you will talk to everyone and then conclude that basically no action needs to be taken, so in that case allowing you to do an investigation gives an air of legitimacy to dismissing Jay". Is "REACH is basically CFAR's pet" correct?
[15:40] 𒀭 💮: and my statements are relevant
[15:40] silver-and-ivory: I feel like in the absence of Jay's presence people should do what they think is best
[15:40] 𒀭 💮: i think even in the presence of Jay, people should do what they think is best
[15:40] silver-and-ivory: also true
[15:40] x.: as far as i can tell, jay already said they were not interested in pursuing an inquest by the hand of the BREACH
[15:41] x.: and refused to engage in such a thing
[15:43] x.: so it's like, "is this person, whose involvement was specifically not requested, a dick?"
[15:43] 𒀭 💮: as far as i can tell this is optimization for silence. because this touches on important things, instead of having a paternalistic additude towards Jay. my read on their CEV after skimming their blog is that they are anti-suppression.
[15:44] 𒀭 💮: also, by like some sort of property rights, this is like 50% my channel.
[15:44] 𒀭 💮: as i was sexually assaulted by robert lecnik.
[15:45] 𒀭 💮: you are interfering with my space as a victim. which is a seperate thing.
[15:45] 𒀭 💮: this is "Robert Lecnik Abuse Chat"
[15:45] x.: so you would prefer to have lintamande investigate this in some way, then?
[15:45] 𒀭 💮: my report is the second item in #concrete-reports
[15:46] 𒀭 💮: i dont want linta to investigate anything besides their complicity with a cissexist system.
[15:46] 𒀭 💮: moriwen made helicopter jokes
[15:46] 𒀭 💮: after they ran out the trans people
[15:46] 𒀭 💮: and is friends with linta: okay, i guess i am too confused to participate any further then
[15:46] 𒀭 💮: linta framed that as "blowing off steam"
[15:47] 𒀭 💮: i do not feel safe around either of these humans.
[15:52] 𒀭 💮: like not exactly blowing off steam but they said like it was good people were having fun when mori was doing their antitransfem thing.
these things become more obvious with processing.
i think robert, given their pattern so far of predation, possibly exploited environmental cissexism, was enabled by this. erasing knowledge of it leads to inability to coordinate against it leads to cis people treating transfem humans as if they exist in morality holes.
[15:54] 𒀭 💮: like i was around robert lecnik after Jay talked with anna about him i think. if anna listened to Jay and took them seriously, if robert lecnik were banned from cfar spaces and the berkeley meetup, i dont think i would have been sexually assualted.
[15:57] 𒀭 💮: erasing knowledge of cissexism because the people perpetrate it "use preferred pronouns" or whatever leads to inability of transfems to coordinate against it.
>On Anna Salamon: I remember her seeing me as a transwoman who exclusively liked men; Blanchard has a whole “theory” about this. And apparently that made me a “real” transwoman (wtf), unlike the rest of the transwomen in LW. I feel she explicitly went out of her way to validate me as a woman a number of times, like, there was one time she was saying hi to me and did the human version of this: (http://www.thebalancedcanine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_1166.jpg). Which, yeah, she’s a TERF.
>Also, the reason I hated her early on was, there was a time that she, I, Robert Lecnik (my rapist), and Peter (his husband) were in a room for an hour long private therapy thing since Peter was a large CFAR donor. Robert admitted to “sexually assaulting Fluttershy and being ‘bad at consent’ with a whole bunch of other people”, and Anna didn’t see any issue with letting him continue to “run the Berkeley meetups” (an honorary thing, he used it to often-ineffectively hit on people). And I had some betrayal trauma from Anna around this, as well as a later feeling of “wow I got pwned by a guy that low in mana, I’m lame”, too. Fortunately it’s all emotionally processed now.this sort of information is very relevant for coordinating against people like Robert Lecnik
i think if cissexism were deleted, in counterfactual worlds in which transfem people got to be on things like "abuse panels", this sort of predation wouldnt happen. but like responses that reactively goodhart this and say "choose the most complicit-with-the-cistem transfems and place them on the panel to avoid culpability" are useless.
individuals learning game theory, forming class-consciousness, and coordinating with each other might help bring justice to things like Robert Lecnik being allowed by the cistem to continue to prey on trans people, to prey on me. with full knowledge that this was going on.
[16:05] 𒀭 💮: https://sinceriously.fyi/intersex-brains-and-conceptual-warfare/#comment-240
[16:09] 𒀭 💮: i have some hope in anarchistic cooperation between smart humans. i have approximately 0 hope in cissexist abuse panels and people like anna salamon who allow the predation of me and people like me to happen.
[16:37] Jay (System of Edo): sec, need to read through all this.
[16:58] 𒀭 💮: if cissexism were deleted this narrow sort of predation would stop happening but like, there would still be predation there would still be predation on minorities. i care about all sentient life not just transfems. this is not an optimization target but is saying "you who say cissexism does not have a hand in the game, if cissexism were actually deleted the counterfactual world post-deletion would look very different than this one. accepting a status quo where like trans people arent on things like sexual abuse panels and arent employed as CFAR staff is accepting cissexism. and resulting in things like, when they go to these institutions they are ignored"
[17:22] Jay (System of Edo): So. My main thing is to look at what algorithms people are running. Like, REACH sounds like they're not brave enough to do something they believe would make the world a better place at a small personal cost, so why would I care about mitigating circumstances if I already know that that's the algorithm they're running. (edit: this is what "is REACH basically CFAR's pet" pointing to, eg if they are pwned by the same things. rather than pointing to whether the two orgs are ostensibly related).
Similarly, discussion of REACH beyond what was needed for me to figure this out (about six lines of text) is not at all useful to me. But pointing this fact out to silence Somni suggests some sort of preference to defend REACH. So, if that's the algorithm you're running, then I see you as (probably) sorting people/discussion topics based on what you can socially get away with. Sort of like, the word "appropriate" is in the same class as "uppity" "disrespectful" "honorable" etc, and this applies to asking if it's "appropriate to discuss REACH despite Jay's preferences".
I personally do not participate in long conversations about who is "in the right", because I personally find it very easy to figure out what people are trying to do, and find that continuing on chats longer than that is a waste of my time. But, this is also Somni's space as a victim of Robert, so it's okay if she wants to discuss REACH I guess. I've never talked with her, but she (they?) seems to have good takes with respect to when someone is de facto hurting others or running bad algorithms in a way related to that.
[17:49] Jay (System of Edo): (sort of like, when I hear that someone sexually assaulted another person, I don't think, "well I guess it's a small harm relative to the good you can do if you're maximizing your life for utilitarian impact", I rather think, "what the fuck algorithm are they running, I don't think they'd have done that if they were trying to reduce the suffering of all beings, maybe there's something I can get out of this person, but definitely not like, outsourcing thinking/project leadership/etc to them"
[18:50] Lorelei: (also related to the reach panel, I'm transfem and was very eager to volunteer as a member, in part because I wanted my queer social circle to have some representation in the process of Justice, but was turned down.)
[18:51] Lorelei: (just so they can't claim not having a tranfem member is justpure coincidence/lack of volunteers)
[18:58] 𒀭 💮: (linta messaged me to say that moriwen saying the helicopter thing was after they said having fun was good. and i checked this and its true. but like that is not at all central to why i think they are collaborating with cissexism or why i talked with emma for like 15 minutes about how people like linta and mori might be horrible to transfems if we told people about alice monday. (people wouldnt actually be marginally worse to transfems. people dont have prejudiced beliefs like that, their transphobic "beliefs" are a coordination mechanism for harm. white people in the antebellum south could see perfectly well that those who were enslaved were human beings.) noselling commitments to transphobia is a good move in response to "what if outing a trans abuser worsens cissexism?".)
[19:02] silver-and-ivory: oh linta and mori left
[19:02] 𒀭 💮: they were banned
a declaration of independence
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
somnilogical Follow two blackmail attemptsa member of my former cult, jade nameless, has attempted to blackmail emma, somni, ziz, gwen with the rape pits. ive read what happens to trans women in prison. emma said no.--ive been forced to the floor while they cut off my clothes while i screamed that i didnt consent and gathered cops around to gawk at my naked body. ive keept awake lying naked on the hard ground by an always-on florescent light, too. ive been denied food and water as an interrogation technique. ive been chained and dragged around a police station with a bag over my head. i told them they would have my compliance when they took out their gun and put a fucking bullet in my fucking skull. they called me a man in response to my resistance, even though i saw a cis woman screaming at them, calling them bitches as they forced her into a neighboring suicide isolation chamber in the ill-named "mental health ward". elle, being a horrible "teacher" so psychologically a cop, reminded me of them when she [heavily implied but did not directly state so as to avoid culpability] that ziz protesting miri/cfar was evidence of her being a man.all this is, is "i can see you care about your gender, stop resisting or i will call you a man". to which my response is "no. your words are as empty as your soul.". kelsey piper, elle benjamin, anna salamon, partick lavictiore, pete michaud, and other miri/cfar affiliates know we are not men and simply try and capture the fact that most trans women care a lot about this as a lever of control.they said my life would be so much easier if i answered their questions, i could have a warmer cell. why dont i just answer their questions? i laughed at them. and so much more abuse, i have a post on it soon.and this was just four days of continuous torture. in prisons the abject attempts to utterly demoralize you and crush your spirit lasts years.--the correct response to blackmail for a udt agent is not to say "oh its just this once, so ill pay out" as alyssa vance does. it is to nosell it as emma did.jade nameless was assisted cassandras attempt to fake-blackmail me into not releasing information that cassandra was abusing their housemates, screaming for hours at them. i nosold that, released a deluge of information about their abuse.pastel, former resident of log horizon (the group house cassandra lives in):<<i don't really know you, cassandra, but that's because i didn't care to get to know you. your normal behavior is plenty manipulative and you gave off more valid-to-me red flags than alice monday.hours-long episodes of hateful, insecure screaming, at the house in general and at anyone who cared enough to do emotional labor in your general direction, are enough that i consider that judgment vindicated. i believe somni grouping you with alice monday and brent dill is valid.>>kali, former resident of log horizon, kicked out of her housing by cassandra for whistleblowing on them:<<Direct quotes I overheard clearly:“They need to learn that there are some things you can’t attack.” (Tone: imagine a smug mob boss) -Cassandra“They haven’t done anything [memory blurry but essentially: you haven’t done anything worth a post but you have done several small things they dislike]. I’ll think about how to narrativize the callout post for somni.” (Tone: as if she was talking about a group project) -Jade with no other known names>>my friends have a write up of this. cassandra is leaving the bay area in august.imagine how successful i would be if i didnt make all these decision-theoretically correct choices.
somnilogical Follow case study: elle benjaminthe rationality community's least skilled exploiter of transmisogynistic coordination points known to mewhen thinking about strategy, i often use the least sophisticated version of a given strategy that i know of to reason about the minimal elements of the strategy in general. i have an index of unsophisticated versions of things that i ping and ask "is this strategy basically this vector but with more optimization power behind it?" it helps compress a lot of information. to check, i can make a prediction given a set of examples of the pattern and test it.(like i did with the transmisogynistic rationalist orgs "i bet this org has 0 transfems in positions of power" and yep they did, they all did.)and thats how i factor strategies generated by agents with large amounts of optimization power. who might have more ability to optimize in a domain than i do.both of these claims are false. elle benjamin never let emma into the group. shes culpable for her continued choice to "believe" bigoted propaganda. just as davis tower kingsley is culpable for "believing" that anna salamon, the president of cfar, isnt involved in cfar's hiring.elle benjamin is deeply concerned about the treatment of trans people in the rationalist community. elle isnt that good at social optimization so this is an obvious false face. like a cop during segregation who runs an algorithm of "smile at people" if no black people are using the WHITE water fountain and "beat up a human" if a black human uses the WHITE water fountain. as long as trans women know their place as violent abusers like ▘▕▜▋, elle is happy. if we start claiming we are women just the same as them and how people are treating us is wrong, if we protest against omnicide, if other people are coordinating against trans women along lines of transmisogyny; then elle decides its time to show us our place in the social order as male. violent, child abuse loving, misogynistic, strong-arming, men.this decision-circuit is not peaceful. people who start trying to exploit transmisogyny in an attempt to coordinate with others against you only when you look vulnerable or they think they can get away with it and otherwise smile at transfems are with their whole soul given over to transmisogyny.erica's post is so passive-aggressive!<<One issue is that i think this group is just too large to remain a high trust environment.>><<Thanks everyone for keeping this a civil place that deals with sensitive issues all these years!>>in reference to my blog posts about how they didnt have any transfem mods and immediately took down hot allostatic load because it was a [[bad culture fit]] and [[incoherent]]. as if i were expected to keep some confidentiality about transmisogyny. i have no loyalty to keeping secret that kind of oppression, i signed no contract to that effect.as if telling other trans people exactly what they did was "uncivil"! as if it were ruinous to society instead of ruinous to a cis women coordinating on transmisogyny.as if posting hot allostatic load and talking about transmisogyny on my blog were less "sensitive" than the other things the group was doing which included posts like "How many romantic novels/movies/etc do we have left, once we take away all the ones focused on a man relentlessly trying to convince a woman through trickery and persistence and stalking that she should really have sex with him" and "the White Knight/Damsel in Distress dynamic" at the time HAL was taken down.https://somnilogical.tumblr.com/post/175420481784/i-tried-to-post-to-rationalist-feminists-closedits an equilibrium where anyone opposing the "peace" of transmisogyny is labeled "antisocial" and "disrupting things".would you say this woman is being misogynistic and "strong-arming" a female DA?<<Last year, I was arrested twice in Sonoma County at Sunrise Farms and then Petaluma Poultry, two massive industrial farms that torture and kill hundreds of thousands of birds- while lying to the public about how these animals are treated. My crime? Asking the county to help the starving animals inside. Not just asking by email or phone call or office visit (though all these efforts were made and ignored), but asking by going right to the frontlines myself, exercising my statutory right to help neglected animals, and calling the attention of the authorities to this pervasive cruelty. The fact that the sheriffs chose to arrest us and ignore the animal cruelty broke my heart. It's hard to believe we live in a world where helping someone who is dying is the "crime" and not putting that life in danger in the first place. But have hope that this will change, and my hope growing.>><<Now, in response to the action at Reichardt, Sonoma County District Attorney Jill Ravitch has decided to file additional charges against me, Priya Sawhney, and Wayne Hsiung. We are already facing 7 felonies and 5 misdemeanors and we're still fighting for animals every day. Do you think new charges will stop us? No. And it wont stop the movement, either. They think they can stop DxE by targeting leadership, but they don't understand that we are a network of leaders. That every single one of us is leading the world to one of the biggest changes it will ever see. #RightToRescue>>probably not because shes cis and looks like:laying down and making it clear that you offer no impediment to mass murder is not a female thing, its not a feminist thing. its a *you* thing, elle benjamin.someone commented on the screenshots:<<(It feels relevant that when I met this person a few months ago they went on a rant about the evils of TERF’s before telling me I couldn’t experience misogyny bc I was “male-socialised.” They apologised quickly after having it explained but the idea of their being the Font of Wisdom about transness to rats is insane.)>>https://loving-not-heyting.tumblr.com/post/614660027724283904/ht-somni-for-screengrabs-this-sums-up-absolutelyozy brennan, i know what the fuck im talking about when i say "transmisogyny". ive been lied to then kicked out of a homeless shelter for being a trans woman. several men forced me to the ground and held me down and cut off my clothes while i shouted "I DONT CONSENT" locked me in a bare room then crowded around a window embedded in a door and said "i told you it was a guy" and a bunch of people came to gawk at my naked body. and so much more.some of my interactions on the street in the bay: <<at bart ppl would call me an ugly bitch and ask me to sleep with them in exchange for meth someone tried to sell me something and i was like "im not interested in being scammed today" and they were like "bitch!!!" i walked around in sf talking with a homeless women for ~8 hours and someone asked if we had boyfriends and offered to sell us meth if we went with him and i was like "no thanks" and she was like "how much?" but it was too expensive or something. she showed me lots of places to get food and shelter. and like if i sit down in places for long enough people will come up to me and ask me if i have a boyfriend or if i want to go get coffee with them on a date. sometimes ppl ask where im *really* from and if i was born a girl. sometimes ppl touch me on my back or thigh.>> ive compared notes with cisfems, i get more solicitations to have sex with men in exchange for meth.this isnt oppression olympics, this is "maybe 7-8 years ago when i started transitioning i didnt have a detailed model of transmisogyny, but now i cant not have one". alyssa vance could have one too (and know things like elle is the kind of person who exploits transmisogyny whenever she gets a chance) if she werent busy using her adult intelligence to defeat itself for miri/cfar. what elle benjamin did was transmisogynistic and i can arbitrage actually being aligned with justice by taking a stack of screenshots of all the things she said and showing them to transfems uninvolved with the ambient miri/cfar gaslighting. and theyll be like "yup, thats transmisogyny". and other transfems can be like "yup, elle was also transmisogynist to me."rationalists like alyssa vance and ozy brennan currently have an incentive to imply people who accurately identify transmisogyny are crazy. to go along with the status quo. (if i had to guess: ozy to protect an environment where they can provide for their baby, alyssa because she routed her hopes for personal immortality through miri/cfar.) though its not like i expect /alyssa vance/ to start calling transfems “gross uncle style abusers" like patrick lavictiore did or start listing off their "manly" physical characteristics contra anna salamon being a small feeble cisfem like peter did. not because alyssa vance is a particularly good person, shes not. but because thats paying in to a coordination technique that could be used against /her/. she doesnt expect social reality to label her "psychotic" anytime soon so she pays into that instead. ozy does and didnt call me "psychotic". this optimization is dumb, myopic, and doesnt serve their own values. but all evil is like that. i dont hold by "use words for their expected value over a community" like scott alexander does. this is nice because i can align what i say with my internal cluster structure of anticipations of reality and escalate arbitrarily far without things breaking. elle benjamin cant escalate very far until her claim of ziz being a "misogynist" shatters, because its not exploiting the cluster structure of thing-space.anyway GG on this front. the territory of "elle benjamin isnt transmisogynistic, somni is hallucinating transmisogyny" isnt worth enough for the miri/cfar campaign to expend energy on; elle benjamin isnt an important piece to miri/cfar like anna salamon is; and alyssa vance isnt in an environment with a bunch of warm bodies she can coordinate on a falsehood with. so afaict this region is ceded. one technique of fem v fem cyberontological combat when you are right is arbitrage. when people gather a bunch of warm bodies together to gaslight you that elle benjamin isnt doing transmisogyny or whatever. instead of submitting to a series of increasingly arcane requirements until your writing looks like the inside of /principia mathematica/ and then have people complain about you writing long technical paragraphs saying they dont understand them dont care to understand them and you must be crazy; just take a comprehensive recording of them all choosing to be dumb in a given direction and show it to people who dont have a political commitment to be dumb in that direction (which, when you are right, is often most people outside of the gaslighting bubble) and explain why its wrong. there are a lot of overlapping social spheres and you can iteratively arbitrage between them exploiting the fact that the methods of rationality and justice are more universal than specific false coordination points. in go terms, the spirit of this strategy is tenuki.--alyssa vance also says anna salamon isnt transmisogynistic, tried claiming ziz whistleblowing on miri/cfar paying out to blackmail was blackmail, and defends paying out to oneshot blackmail with subjunctive dependence for cdt reasons.
somnilogical Follow anna salamon & co tried to coordinate people around the lie that ziz, gwen, somni, emma were male. making special note of our imposing bodies and being a "gross uncle" obsessed with status and attending a "violent protest" and thinking child abuse is hot and being indistinguishable from a brent dill rapist and misogynistically "strong-arming" anna salamon. emphasizing fear of us using our muscles for physical violence.then they lose over 350,000$ to a barrage of callout posts and a burn book. completely blindsided by female optimization.live by the sword of transmisogyny; die by it too.keep modeling us as men miri/cfar! im sure it will work out for you eventually! remember: might makes right! if you tell a lie enough it will *become* true! dont listen to those who tell you to abandon false beliefs! you just arent leaning in enough!!!#you can do it!!!#processing
somnilogical Follow i have a lot of posts with more quotes and screenshots on the stack. a lot of these ones are processing + orienting + organizing what has been going on for the last few months. thinking about the structure of the matrix. at first it was hard to work out my stance on how to talk about this because i knew the cops and rationalist cops were monitoring my blog.for instance alyssa reads my blog kept linking to it in the fb gaslighting chamber.she lied about whether elle benjamin is transmisogynistic, tried to claim that ziz leaking information about blackmail was blackmail until i said unconditionally leaking information on organizations does not at all have the game theoretic structure of "blackmail" and then she took it back, defended paying out to oneshot blackmail with subjunctive dependence because she thought it was unlikely to happen again; which is not why udt agents dont pay out to blackmail, its cdt reasoning and wrong. these motions have the organizing force around them of trying to find something outside schelling reach to coordinate against to coordinate with others to collectively be dumb about. you win if you get enough people to be damaged in the same direction. none of these were because she lacked intelligence, all of these were using her adult intelligence to defeat herself in defense of cfar.because what miri/cfar is doing is unjust, eventually the defense of it chains back to "but the president of cfar isnt involved in cfar's hiring choices" "but if its just going to happen once it makes sense to pay out to oneshot blackmail with subjunctive dependence" its really confusing making these posts? because i want to make them neat and modular and not repeat information. but its hard to write them in order such that the dependencies come first. like for instance i was going to have a compilation post of "miri/cfar affiliates use their adult intelligence to defeat themselves" with things like kingsley going "you cant *prove* the cfar fundraiser was planned to end on the 10th this year just because it said it would on the announcement post and it ended on the 10th in past years". but then i start thinking during another post like this one about all the instances of the miri/cfar people trying to get people to say in unison "two plus two is five! two plus two is five! omg we are solving a coordination problem!" i want to include all of the instances so people can get a sense of the shape of this kind of gaslighting. how its a convergent strategy.so then id want to recurse back and write a compilation blogpost of all the times people have used their adult intelligence to defeat themselves. except i already have the context loaded for this blogpost and want to write it. so instead of a few neat, minimally overlapping, modular blogposts that link to each other. im writing out a bunch of different vectors of emotional processing and retyping parts of hypothetical "compilation posts" each time i reference them.also ill write a post with some thesis and want to link back to reference a post with a different thesis, but that post isnt written yet, but i want to get this post out, i want to process these emotions. so in the post with thesis A ill include a quick sketch of the post with thesis B and mentally earmark it as a thing where ill highlight one of the sentences in purple and add a hyperlink to thesis B when i write it.which means that compression over the set of posts is imperfect and theres a lot of redundant information. like im compressing probably this planets most advanced form of psychological warfare in defense of false things and unjust things. (psychological warfare defending true things and just things is much stronger for technical reasons because of properties of truth and justice. whiiich i have a post in my post-stack about this.)im also going to link a file of all the miri/cfar posts that i use as a lot of raw material for my posts so other people can parse through it. including the post where people are like "wtf somni and emma are in here? aaa i gotta delete all my posts!!" except all their posts were already screenshotted. miri/cfar doesnt own my memories and upon joining i specifically made no promise to not leak these posts nor false anticipation that i wouldnt.if you dont want your posts leaked, quit your jobs supporting miri/cfar. leave team omnicide. for most of you there are far easier ways to make friends, participate in obscure hobbies, and have babies than the middle of a conflict over the singleton.for those of you who work for personal immortality, miri/cfar will not save you. they have capitulated to those who accelerate the arms race. they arent trying to align the utility function an ai with sentient life (not that they were before, only sought ai friendly to living humans. miri is not vegan!) and trying to establish a task ai to make a "stabilizing move" to halt all other ai projects without aligning it with sentient life is omnicide. bounding optimization power, bounding domain of optimization, these are ad-hoc patches that dont solve "do what i mean". they will not protect you from a task ai that paths getting someone out of a burning building through exploding a gas main and catapulting their body SPLAT into a nearby field.theres no hidden deeply wise reason why they are doing this. they are not going to pull a rabbit out of a hat, like they had machinery to before. it used to be that yudkowsky could preform magic like getting out of an ai box, and there are probably a lot of people who have that ability cached. but nowdays all structure has decayed.like miri lied to their donors about why their fundraiser did surprisingly abysmally this year. they paid out to blackmail. they want openai and/or deepmind to hand them a daemon in a box. you cant get any magic out of this. theres no secret planet-steering kiritzugu hidden behind the curtain. just some mundane non-profit organization.for those of you who actually with some part of your brain want to save everyone; show the previous two arguments to the part of your brain that doesnt.#meta#i tried to make a meta post#and all the object level posts started leaking into it#processing
somnilogical reblogged canmom Follow i once fancied that i might someday create the artistic equivalent of a brick through a window. of course the artistic equivalent to a brick through a window is, well, getting a brick and… etc. etc. it would accomplish precisely as much, and as little.now I guess I think there is no story I could write or picture I could draw that would bring about communism or destabilise gender or what-have-you as a conscious effort. artistic expression can be both a consequence of and a feedback encouraging/discouraging some sort of social transformation, but not necessarily in any sort of obvious way like (story depicts x) -> (people do x more).I won’t necessarily be conscious of the change that is being expressed through me, and I certainly can’t predict the consequences of what I write with any sort of reliability (who knows what people will bring to it! someone, say, exiting a cult will have a very different approach than someone approaching me as a Trans Artist™ peer…)instead I think all I can do is try and honestly express what is important to me, reflect and focus what I see in this world and its dynamics; to make stories like I’d like to read that feel ‘truthful’, and hope that they can be the same for others, and in so doing, perhaps whatever terrible historical process is unfolding through us will have an outcome I can live with. or perhaps it won’t. my part will be minor, but no more irrelevant than anyone else’s…somnilogical Follow hi, currently exiting the cult you critiqued, getting death threats and threats to try and send me to the rape pits from members. you were right, when people said that rationalists werent transmisogynistic and you asked if this were true why werent any trans women in positions of power? i remember reading this on tumblr.one of the leaders of the official branch of the cult, anna salamon, is a transmisogynist. i knew she thought trans women were men for a long time but naively thought this wouldnt affect things. i knew most of the Deeply Wise Cis Leaders thought trans women were men, i naively thought this wouldnt affect anything.they have been actively trying to bury information, trying gaslight my reasoning into oblivion. like trying to convince me that someone who [lied and claimed that one of my friends thought child abuse was hot and was violent and another friend was misogynistically "strong-arming" by protesting omnicide because the one doing the omnicide was a ~feeble cis woman~. and when i told people about her another transfem said elle was transmisogynistic to her too. she runs the schelling place to put information about feminism and rationalism. her friend deleted hot allostatic load when i tried to post it, said it was incomprehensible. but they seem to comprehend what its talking about just fine, cuz they are fucking doing it.] isnt a transmisogynist.like they lie all the fucking time trying to form a coalition of gaslighters whose story is that me and my friends (we are all transfem) are psychotic rapists and each time you talk about it they drop a thread and move on to another one. just like porpentine said would happen. and then people try and say that im crazy for saying this is transmisogyny. their gaslighting budget will run out eventually because ive read the metagame and they havent and lying about people works so much worse than telling the truth. (like they have stopped speaking in public because their supply lines are insufficient to coordinate on a lie and kept crashing into each other. like when i said "cfar has never hired a trans woman, this is downstream of anna salamon being a transmisogynist" they were like "this is delusional. anna salamon, the president of cfar, is not involved in cfar's hiring process" and then another cfar employee ranting in public about how anna salamon hired their rapist incidentally mentions that anna salamon is involved with hiring at cfar. and then they come back like "i did some research and it turns out the president of cfar is involved in hiring at cfar, how was i supposed to know?".another person defended paying out to oneshot blackmail with subjunctive dependence for cdt reasons. actually got people to go along with this.like a comparative advantage of the truth is it doesnt need centralized control to maintain, dont have to worry about humans colliding into each other when two branches lose communication and decide to tell different lies.they have to have consolidated locations of gaslighting like LW where mods just delete comments with info about how they misappropriated donor funds to pay out to louie helm to take down his webpage. where they have social leverage over all the mods and private fb groups. whereas i can go p much anywhere.)like i went to the Designated Sources to tell people about this and they started being like "emma is indistinguishable from [prominent rapist]", "emma thinks child abuse is hot", "you are all infohazards", "i cant understand this, ack! stop trying to explain i dont want to understand! its probably dangerous to get to the point where your words make sense!". like all positions of Sober Adult Power in the rationalist community, these were headed by non-transfem people, cis women.when i talk about transmisogyny agents collude to say that its "incomprehensible" when i explain in smaller words what is going on they say they dont want to know because it might turn them into a rapist.the amount of twisted fucked up things like this that they do is amazing. i want to list them all to pour my heart out to every trans women i meet to tell them all the tiny details of exactly what they do. how they try and create a class of obedient transfems whose actions and thoughts are constrained by their network of implcit threats to have their machine branch you into a bad timeline, if you think or speak out against the omnicide or the transmisogyny inherent to maintaining the omnicide (transfems have a high concentration of mind powers they need to suppress to continue to work for the eradication of all life) or if you try and maintain correct thinking about decision theory irl. (im going to write a blogpost on this.)just like google does to their transfems. just like segregation enforced by threats of violence by those who held by white supremacy was deemed "peaceful" by white supremecists when everyone submitted to this social order that subjugated black people. this is not peace, its a peace of a metal wire strained by hundreds of tons of force. its "if you submit to this unjust social order, we will not damage you. thats what we call peace." except this isnt even right because submission to this deal is deep psychological damage. i read your post describing the process where people pretend to not understand:<<Likewise, @isoxys recently wrote an impressively thorough transmisogyny 101, synthesising the last several years of discussions about this facet of our particular hell world. But that post got just 186 notes, almost exclusively from the same trans women who are accused of writing ‘inaccessibly’.Perhaps they’d say isoxys’s post is inaccessible too, but what would pass the bar? Some slick HTML5 presentation with cute illustrations? A wiki? Who’s got the energy and money to make and host something like that? Do the critics of ‘inaccessible’ posts take some time to think about what kind of alternative would be desirable, and how it could be organised?>>https://canmom.tumblr.com/post/185908592767/accessibility-in-terms-of-not-using-difficultreading what other trans women have written other times this same kind of coalitional strategy has helped me sustain much less psychic damage. you and porpentine and alice maz and the wachowskis and others writing about this has helped me reason about this horrorscape. i would be so lost and have to invent so much more on-the-fly had i not already read and processed these things.i guess you played a minor part in miri/cfar losing over 350,000$ in donor funds. feel like its good praxis to let people know what their writing is doing.
somnilogical Follow i mentioned a particular way grognor seemed mentally fucked up in a post, someone sent me a bunch of messages and a google doc about how grognor could have been saved if they had housing and didnt have to work:<<and me and stef... we wouldnt've been in a position to give him what he needed(although if he *had* come to us and told us explicitly he was going to kill himself unless he could get that, we would've fought *desperately* to find a way to get him what he needed.we would *have gotten him what he needed somehow*, and kept him alive.)and we are *still* in a terrible position to get that for anyone like him, and even we weren't, we couldn't get it for everyone.>>afaict you are accurately modeling the sort-of-strategy grognor would run. the correct response here is to not pay out to someone holding themselves hostage, not to desperately find a way to comply with their demands.like FYI, grognor used the CDT fake-consequentialist hold-yourself-hostage thing to convince a 14 year old human into letting him rape them and it only didnt happen because the 14 yo called it off a few weeks before it was scheduled.--looking back at the google doc this person sent me theres an update:<<#2020-03-02{ note by stef: owen and me aren't together anymore, and i want nothing to do with him. instead of trying to somehow integrate my own voice into this document, attempting to clarify and dispute things, i've chosen to simply disavow it entirely. don't bother talking to me about it. parts are true, parts are false, the man is dead. let the reconstructionists sort it out.}>>#looked at doc to copy/paste quotes
somnilogical Follow Anonymous asked:ah yes thank you more fuel for my selfcest/clonecest fetish :)your headmate is not an exact copy of yourself. you cannot assume, given you want to have sex with them, that they want to have sex with you.people disagree with their headmates over what food to buy at the market.<<Standing in the supermarket aisle, Vicki would look at an item on the shelf and know that she wanted to place it in her trolley — but she couldn't. “I'd reach with my right for the thing I wanted, but the left would come in and they'd kind of fight,” she says. “Almost like repelling magnets.”>>https://www.nature.com/news/the-split-brain-a-tale-of-two-halves-1.10213they are their own person, they do not belong to you to do with as you please.
somnilogical reblogged somnilogical Follow you have a headmateheres a video of two people talking about their experience in a wada test, recalling memories from when just a left hemisphere was awake and doing things and memories of when just a right hemisphere was awake and doing things. they can both remember doing things as a left hemisphere and doing things as a right hemisphere.https://youtu.be/lXbmDSc8oc8if you have one awake person with preferences and feelings and memories who makes choices when you put just the right hemisphere to sleep; and one awake person with preferences and feelings and memories who makes choices when you put just the left hemisphere to sleep; how many awake people do you have when no hemispheres are asleep?https://youtu.be/SHqDf8wfABMhttps://youtu.be/wfYbgdo8e-8i dont think theres a compact generator of these observations besides that almost every"one" youve ever met has been two people with different capabilities and preferences. otherwise how can you instantly spawn distinct people via the wada test and via corpus calloscotomy? where do they come from? where do they go? is there some other partitioning of a brain gives you one person on each side that isnt downstream of hemis each being a person?do you take your beliefs about personhood seriously or not?argumate Follow couldn’t you radically change someone’s personality by selectively disabling certain parts of their brain, and if the change was reversible (difficult!) would that mean that they “contain many people” or just that their behaviour is a product of their current brain state?somnilogical how when can you disable the complement and get a person? (enable the part you disabled and disable the part you enabled) like want to count how many people there are in a brain you want to see if you can partition a brain into distinct people, not see if brain damage changes peoples souls. i updated "yes" on that long ago.possible for there to be big people made out of smaller people, like swarms and bees. i have low probability this is happening in mammals, so looking at partitions.argumate right there can’t be many ways to partition a brain into two disjoint sets that are both capable of communication, and given the hemispherical structure you would expect that most of those partitions would end up being in that direction plus or minus a little wiggle room or something like that.but doesn’t that mean you have three people, the left, the right, and the left+right?femmenietzsche Follow Surely there’s a difference between something which can be separated into two functioning halves, and something which is made of two separate things. Like, imagine a simple organism which, if you cut it in two, can grow into two separate functional organisms. You wouldn’t say that the original organism was two separate creatures all along, you’d just say that it was a single organism which had the potential to be split in two. Even if each half of a brain has the potential to become a separate self, that doesn’t mean it is one all the time. somnilogical like you can press a button and in the time it takes for sedation to work (less than 30 seconds), get a coherent person. and then undo it and then redo it. this means any sea-star process of generating separate people from one human works really quickly and any reformation also works really quickly.a post says that after a year a split-brain human re-adapted to being a somewhat coherent actor and that people after surgery still felt subjectively like a unified entity:<<In the first months after her surgery, shopping for groceries was infuriating. Standing in the supermarket aisle, Vicki would look at an item on the shelf and know that she wanted to place it in her trolley — but she couldn't. “I'd reach with my right for the thing I wanted, but the left would come in and they'd kind of fight,” she says. “Almost like repelling magnets.” Picking out food for the week was a two-, sometimes three-hour ordeal. Getting dressed posed a similar challenge: Vicki couldn't reconcile what she wanted to put on with what her hands were doing. Sometimes she ended up wearing three outfits at once. “I'd have to dump all the clothes on the bed, catch my breath and start again.”>><<After about a year, Vicki's difficulties abated. “I could get things together,” she says. For the most part she was herself: slicing vegetables, tying her shoe laces, playing cards, even waterskiing.>><<Through studies of this group, neuroscientists now know that the healthy brain can look like two markedly different machines, cabled together and exchanging a torrent of data. But when the primary cable is severed, information — a word, an object, a picture — presented to one hemisphere goes unnoticed in the other.>><<Gazzaniga developed what he calls the interpreter theory to explain why people — including split-brain patients — have a unified sense of self and mental life3. >>https://www.nature.com/news/the-split-brain-a-tale-of-two-halves-1.10213the thing they cut was high-bandwidth communication between people which a human can again compensate for and again act like a sort-of coherent agent after a year of practice.both before and 1 year after surgery hemis are two different people even though in both instances they have negotiated how to move the body they share in a somewhat coordinated way and feel like one unified person.if you take the sea-star position it follows that before surgery hemis smurge into one person somehow, then a few months after surgery they are definitely two distinct people, and then one year after surgery they have smurged back into one person. a more compact generator for these observations is that hemis were two people with stable coordination before surgery, they had high-bandwidth datalines cut and lost coordination, then regained coordination with each other over the course of a year to pilot a single body.two people with high levels of coordination is not in the same natural category as one person. most people are not used to interacting with just one person so they dont notice the difference, having nothing in their immediate environment to compare it to.people reasoning about agents can compare two negotiating agents with a certain amount of bandwidth controlling one body with a single agent controlling a body and see how they diverge.
somnilogical reblogged somnilogical Follow you have a headmateheres a video of two people talking about their experience in a wada test, recalling memories from when just a left hemisphere was awake and doing things and memories of when just a right hemisphere was awake and doing things. they can both remember doing things as a left hemisphere and doing things as a right hemisphere.https://youtu.be/lXbmDSc8oc8if you have one awake person with preferences and feelings and memories who makes choices when you put just the right hemisphere to sleep; and one awake person with preferences and feelings and memories who makes choices when you put just the left hemisphere to sleep; how many awake people do you have when no hemispheres are asleep?https://youtu.be/SHqDf8wfABMhttps://youtu.be/wfYbgdo8e-8i dont think theres a compact generator of these observations besides that almost every"one" youve ever met has been two people with different capabilities and preferences. otherwise how can you instantly spawn distinct people via the wada test and via corpus calloscotomy? where do they come from? where do they go? is there some other partitioning of a brain gives you one person on each side that isnt downstream of hemis each being a person?do you take your beliefs about personhood seriously or not?argumate Follow couldn’t you radically change someone’s personality by selectively disabling certain parts of their brain, and if the change was reversible (difficult!) would that mean that they “contain many people” or just that their behaviour is a product of their current brain state?somnilogical how when can you disable the complement and get a person? (enable the part you disabled and disable the part you enabled) like want to count how many people there are in a brain you want to see if you can partition a brain into distinct people, not see if brain damage changes peoples souls. i updated "yes" on that long ago.possible for there to be big people made out of smaller people, like swarms and bees. i have low probability this is happening in mammals, so looking at partitions.argumate right there can’t be many ways to partition a brain into two disjoint sets that are both capable of communication, and given the hemispherical structure you would expect that most of those partitions would end up being in that direction plus or minus a little wiggle room or something like that.but doesn’t that mean you have three people, the left, the right, and the left+right?somnilogical if you have people who grow up in a room together and they can talk with each other but have to decide on commands to give their mecha body to act in the world... you could say that this is another "person" but i think it would be a violation of the natural category "person" and youd find two coherent tracts of optimization all over the place.i think our society has normalized everytwo being plural and if we communicated with life whose bodies enveloped one unit of person-brain like our hemispheres are, they would find it really weird that sometwo would call that thing made of two people and some bandwidth to communicate a single "person".argumate Wikipedia tells me that the Wada test rarely leads to drastic personality changes, but that “During one injection, typically the left hemisphere, the patient experiences impaired speech and language or is completely unable to express or understand language” which makes me wonder how they evaluate that claim about personalities.given that people are normally unaware of the hemispherical division of their brains and do not consider themselves to be communicating with another entity / made up of two entities, it feels like a stretch.somnilogical hemis want different things!!!<<In the first months after her surgery, shopping for groceries was infuriating. Standing in the supermarket aisle, Vicki would look at an item on the shelf and know that she wanted to place it in her trolley — but she couldn't. “I'd reach with my right for the thing I wanted, but the left would come in and they'd kind of fight,” she says. “Almost like repelling magnets.” Picking out food for the week was a two-, sometimes three-hour ordeal. Getting dressed posed a similar challenge: Vicki couldn't reconcile what she wanted to put on with what her hands were doing. Sometimes she ended up wearing three outfits at once. “I'd have to dump all the clothes on the bed, catch my breath and start again.”>>it took like a year after their old communication pathway was severed for the hemis to find a new way to negotiate different desires into unified actions with a single body<<After about a year, Vicki's difficulties abated. “I could get things together,” she says. For the most part she was herself: slicing vegetables, tying her shoe laces, playing cards, even waterskiing.>><<Through studies of this group, neuroscientists now know that the healthy brain can look like two markedly different machines, cabled together and exchanging a torrent of data. But when the primary cable is severed, information — a word, an object, a picture — presented to one hemisphere goes unnoticed in the other.>>even split-brain patients with the hemi's connection severed are like "yep im totally one person! just one unified self! goddamnit i wish it didnt take me so long to buy food!!!"<<Gazzaniga developed what he calls the interpreter theory to explain why people — including split-brain patients — have a unified sense of self and mental life3. It grew out of tasks in which he asked a split-brain person to explain in words, which uses the left hemisphere, an action that had been directed to and carried out only by the right one. “The left hemisphere made up a post hoc answer that fit the situation.” In one of Gazzaniga's favourite examples, he flashed the word 'smile' to a patient's right hemisphere and the word 'face' to the left hemisphere, and asked the patient to draw what he'd seen. “His right hand drew a smiling face,” Gazzaniga recalled. “'Why did you do that?' I asked. He said, 'What do you want, a sad face? Who wants a sad face around?'.” The left-brain interpreter, Gazzaniga says, is what everyone uses to seek explanations for events, triage the barrage of incoming information and construct narratives that help to make sense of the world.>>https://www.nature.com/news/the-split-brain-a-tale-of-two-halves-1.10213
somnilogical reblogged somnilogical Follow you have a headmateheres a video of two people talking about their experience in a wada test, recalling memories from when just a left hemisphere was awake and doing things and memories of when just a right hemisphere was awake and doing things. they can both remember doing things as a left hemisphere and doing things as a right hemisphere.https://youtu.be/lXbmDSc8oc8if you have one awake person with preferences and feelings and memories who makes choices when you put just the right hemisphere to sleep; and one awake person with preferences and feelings and memories who makes choices when you put just the left hemisphere to sleep; how many awake people do you have when no hemispheres are asleep?https://youtu.be/SHqDf8wfABMhttps://youtu.be/wfYbgdo8e-8i dont think theres a compact generator of these observations besides that almost every"one" youve ever met has been two people with different capabilities and preferences. otherwise how can you instantly spawn distinct people via the wada test and via corpus calloscotomy? where do they come from? where do they go? is there some other partitioning of a brain gives you one person on each side that isnt downstream of hemis each being a person?do you take your beliefs about personhood seriously or not?argumate Follow couldn’t you radically change someone’s personality by selectively disabling certain parts of their brain, and if the change was reversible (difficult!) would that mean that they “contain many people” or just that their behaviour is a product of their current brain state?somnilogical how when can you disable the complement and get a person? (enable the part you disabled and disable the part you enabled) like want to count how many people there are in a brain you want to see if you can partition a brain into distinct people, not see if brain damage changes peoples souls. i updated "yes" on that long ago.possible for there to be big people made out of smaller people, like swarms and bees. i have low probability this is happening in mammals, so looking at partitions.argumate right there can’t be many ways to partition a brain into two disjoint sets that are both capable of communication, and given the hemispherical structure you would expect that most of those partitions would end up being in that direction plus or minus a little wiggle room or something like that.but doesn’t that mean you have three people, the left, the right, and the left+right?somnilogical if you have people who grow up in a room together and they can talk with each other but have to decide on commands to give their mecha body to act in the world... you could say that this is another "person" but i think it would be a violation of the natural category "person" and youd find two coherent tracts of optimization all over the place.i think our society has normalized everytwo being plural and if we communicated with life whose bodies enveloped one unit of person-brain like our hemispheres are, they would find it really weird that sometwo would call that thing made of two people and some bandwidth to communicate a single "person".
somnilogical reblogged somnilogical Follow you have a headmateheres a video of two people talking about their experience in a wada test, recalling memories from when just a left hemisphere was awake and doing things and memories of when just a right hemisphere was awake and doing things. they can both remember doing things as a left hemisphere and doing things as a right hemisphere.https://youtu.be/lXbmDSc8oc8if you have one awake person with preferences and feelings and memories who makes choices when you put just the right hemisphere to sleep; and one awake person with preferences and feelings and memories who makes choices when you put just the left hemisphere to sleep; how many awake people do you have when no hemispheres are asleep?https://youtu.be/SHqDf8wfABMhttps://youtu.be/wfYbgdo8e-8i dont think theres a compact generator of these observations besides that almost every"one" youve ever met has been two people with different capabilities and preferences. otherwise how can you instantly spawn distinct people via the wada test and via corpus calloscotomy? where do they come from? where do they go? is there some other partitioning of a brain gives you one person on each side that isnt downstream of hemis each being a person?do you take your beliefs about personhood seriously or not?argumate Follow couldn’t you radically change someone’s personality by selectively disabling certain parts of their brain, and if the change was reversible (difficult!) would that mean that they “contain many people” or just that their behaviour is a product of their current brain state?somnilogical when can you disable the complement and get a person? (enable the part you disabled and disable the part you enabled) like want to count how many people there are in a brain you want to see if you can partition a brain into distinct people, not see if brain damage changes peoples souls. i updated "yes" on that long ago.possible for there to be big people made out of smaller people, like swarms and bees. i have low probability this is happening in mammals, so looking at partitions.
somnilogical Follow you have a headmateheres a video of two people talking about their experience in a wada test, recalling memories from when just a left hemisphere was awake and doing things and memories of when just a right hemisphere was awake and doing things. they can both remember doing things as a left hemisphere and doing things as a right hemisphere.https://youtu.be/lXbmDSc8oc8if you have one awake person with preferences and feelings and memories who makes choices when you put just the right hemisphere to sleep; and one awake person with preferences and feelings and memories who makes choices when you put just the left hemisphere to sleep; how many awake people do you have when no hemispheres are asleep?https://youtu.be/SHqDf8wfABMhttps://youtu.be/wfYbgdo8e-8i dont think theres a compact generator of these observations besides that almost every"one" youve ever met has been two people with different capabilities and preferences. otherwise how can you instantly spawn distinct people via the wada test and via corpus calloscotomy? where do they come from? where do they go? is there some other partitioning of a brain gives you one person on each side that isnt downstream of hemis each being a person?do you take your beliefs about personhood seriously or not?
somnilogical Follow transgenderer: okay so you know the trope where when you get too much eldritch knowledge and suddenly you start seeing giant monsters everywhere that are invisible to everyone else? that’s what being a trans woman is like.this cluster of abilities keeps being instrumentally useful to model for reasoning about transfems. promethea and bendini independently talked about this:[08:56] Bendini: This sounds like parody, but with californians it is difficult to tell[image of fb post:Daniel Powell: That report claims both that all entrances were blocked and also that a police vehicle entered and exited the camp; was that because the police vehicle was capable of offoad movement that typical vehicles are incapable of? My heart goes out to the kids on the high course who were subjected to unjustifiable physical pain or mental suffering as a result of seeing people in Guy Fawkes masks, and all the people who had their personal liberty violated. Like Reply 11h][09:02] Bendini: also this is a lot less credible if you haven't forgotten what happened with Brent[09:02] Bendini: regardless of whether Anna is secretly a transphobe[09:03] Bendini: rather than just scared of one particular trans person[09:03] Bendini: the same sort of defence was trotted out for brent, and he was guilty[09:05] Bendini: yeah, ziz is crazy and a lot of stuff posted is just ramblings[09:06] Bendini: but I can see the model of everyone being sufficiently cowardly that the crazy bring forward the accusations before the courageous do[09:23] promethea: gotta love how nobody can quite agree exactly how the people involved are Bad and Evil but people are nonetheless confident that they are schizophrenic/narcissistic/abusers/violent and must be confined and put on chemical mind control[image of fb post:Romeo Stevens: I'd recommend whomever has comparative advantage to familiarize themselves with the narcissism/bpd/aspd cluster, more evocatively called energy vampires. Such people are not stable and can grow violent when they are deprived attention they believe they are entitled to. The book Character Disturbance is fairly good for a start. It is a known falilure mode for communities of people who have faced their own social isolation to fail at filtering. To be clear, such people deserve compassion, but they need professional help. They don't benefit from a bunch of people whose time is valuable (one of the reasons they are attracted to such people because more validation) paying attention to their narratives. 9h Edited][09:24] promethea: there's been an awful lot of "not saying, but just saying" of a type that screams of monkeyball hysteria and attacking any characteristics that can be painted as vulnerabilities open for attack[09:26] promethea: (also Ben the reason why you find Ziz's blog full of "just ramblings" is that you have a particular neurotype that is very... I don't have a good value-neutral way of expressing the difference but maybe "mundane" as opposed to "eldritch")[09:35] Bendini: yeah the idea of someone saying get professional help is a strong sign they have not thought through what they are saying[09:36] Bendini: like, a quick glance at what professional mental health treatment looks like in the US (therapy in the UK is afaik good for low hanging fruit, but not much else)[09:37] Bendini: "these people should be reported to the mental health authoritities to be dealt with"[09:37] Bendini: "Uhhh, I mean get the compassion they need"[09:38] Bendini: I have to say, you would be the first person in the history of ever to call my neurotype mundane[09:39] Bendini: I see what you are getting at[09:39] Bendini: but it is like, how many standard deviations of weirdness are you on[09:39] Bendini: and I said most, not all[09:40] promethea: I think it's more like what direction your weirdness is in; "grounded" or "basic bitch" were other words I considered[09:40] promethea: it's similar to the difference between EAs who want to find out how to best help the global poor, and the ones who get very preoccupied over whether insecticides are causing catastrophic suffering[09:43] Bendini: "tethered to reality, somehow" would be an alternative[09:45] Bendini: I think it's due to having like 50% really normie emotions[09:45] promethea: "tethered to consensus reality" is how I'd adjust that phrasing[09:46] promethea: it may be something to do with a sense that the world is fundamentally sane but just really bad at its job, vs the world being fundamentally insane and only aligned with the actual reality by little more than grace of gnon[09:49] promethea: and probably some kind of a fundamental unshakeable-to-barely-shakeable prior rather than something that responds to ordinary reasoning[09:50] Bendini: what do we mean by fundementally sane vs insane here?[09:51] promethea: good catch, that's a nightmare to unpack[09:53] promethea: a lot of the early LW stuff is comparatively eldritch in this sense, especially for the context of not having had LW yet[09:56] promethea: in an environment where being trans isn't normal trans people have a certain inherent eldritch-ness, but a person fitting neatly into a third gender social role in a culture where that has always been a thing is not eldritch in that way[09:57] promethea: it's the difference between "other people are trying their best even if their best isn't that good" vs. "other people are systematically gaslighting you about everything until proven otherwise"[10:01] Bendini: ah[10:02] Bendini: I'd put the difference down to people being really really crap at explaining things because the message is in there but it's between the lines[10:02] Bendini: not intentionally, but because they don't know how else to do it[10:03] promethea: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/sYgv4eYH82JEsTD34/beyond-the-reach-of-god this is probably the most explicit work by EY on what I've been calling the eldritch[10:04] Bendini: and if you don't have enough of the fuzzy experience knowledge to do it, following what they are saying will be experienced as gaslighting[10:04] promethea: and specifically, Beyond the Reach of God is trying to shake a component of the fundamental sense of security and move people towards the eldritch side[10:05] Bendini: this sounds like the fundamental autist experience which cleaves into paranoia or extreme submissiveness to authority[10:08] promethea:I'd put the difference down to people being really really crap at explaining things because the message is in there but it's between the linesnot intentionally, but because they don't know how else to do itand if you don't have enough of the fuzzy experience knowledge to do it, following what they are saying will be experienced as gaslightingI'm thinking more of the thing about "seek professional help"[10:09] Bendini: the yud post does not[10:09] promethea: a mundane interpretation is "professional help isn't actually that helpful but I don't know that" while an eldritch interpretation is like "these people should be reported to the mental health authoritities to be dealt with"[10:09] Bendini: as I'm rereading it[10:10] Bendini: I do not believe the world is just[10:10] Bendini: or that things will work out fine in the end because they always do[10:11] Bendini: given, y'know, that I used to be a prepper[10:15] Bendini: also I may have figured out how to reconcile "anna is a transphobe and admitted it outright" with what has been said[10:16] Bendini: which I suspect pete knows based on what he said, but he doesn't say it outright[10:18] promethea: "eldritch" isn't about just-world beliefs, it's closer to "a quality that makes one faster to disalieve things like just-world or other aspects of consensus reality"[10:21] Bendini: I think there's some conflation between beleif in verbal consensus reality and belief that you can anticipate what other people will do probabalistically[10:22] Bendini: I do not beleive in the former, but I think I had enough natural talent at the latter to reach a kind of escape velocity[10:24] Bendini: i.e. have enough to build on/enough peices of the jigsaw put in that I could keep filling it in[10:26] promethea: it's not about "eldritch means you can't model other people"[10:29] promethea: if anything, mundane models are the ones that are sacrificing modeling ability[10:30] promethea: ...seeing patterns where people insist is only noise but that noise just so happens to be awfully conveniently shaped...[10:30] Bendini: if I am defined as the non-eldridch side, this sounds like something that could be falsified[10:31] promethea: I'm feeling like this is a beautiful meta-level illustration of the difference between the neurotypes but way less useful on the object level or to someone who doesn't already have an unspeakable sense of what the difference is[10:33] promethea: I don't know how to get the qualia across to someone who doesn't already have the thing and be thus able to possibly grok it from what I'm vaguely gesturing at[10:34] Bendini: is there a way to demonstrate information transmission between 2 eldridch people?[10:36] promethea: ziz's blog has a lot of content that makes perfect sense to people who have a quality that's probably strongly aligned with eldritch, but apparently looks like ramblings to people who don't[10:38] promethea: some things are just ordinarily difficult to understand in that they require a lot of work, while others are actually mind-bending to properly comprehend, and eldritch minds are more bendy in that way?[10:41] promethea: which also increases vulnerability to infohazards, cognitohazards, overfitting, demonic possession and generally going nuts, but the idea that eldritch is inherently less sane only applies to socioculturally mediated definitions of sanity[10:42] Bendini: my immidiate reaction to "socioculturally mediated definitions of sanity" was "yes, and creditworthyness is a social construct"[10:43] promethea: if reality is less well-matched with consensus reality then the bendiness of eldritch minds means that they can more easily construct accurate maps of the territory[10:44] Bendini: can you think of a way to compare viewing that map to the territory?[10:44] Bendini: as in, not being able to show the map is a given[10:45] Bendini: but the outputs of the map[10:47] promethea: seeing power, seeing prejudice and bias, seeing other things polite society pretends aren't real...[10:49] promethea: and it's polite society all the way down[10:49] Bendini: that's not really what I meant[10:50] Bendini: I mean for example, using the ability to see those things to predict other things in a way that can be isolated from fuzzy confirmation bias[10:51] Bendini: like I can very much believe ziz's blog is relatable and intuitive to you[10:52] Bendini: and you have to do less interpretive labour to get a true insight from it[10:53] Bendini: but the thing I'm pointing at as ramblings is seperate from that[10:58] promethea: would it make sense if I rephrased it as "less cognitive filtering"? being able to see more signal in noise, especially where the signals are something you aren't supposed to be seeing for some reason or another, but at the cost that you're more likely to see signals where there is only noise[11:02] Bendini: that makes sense[11:03] Bendini: but it assumes that all people who don't do the eldrich thing can't go down the abstraction ladder[11:04] promethea:can't go down the abstraction laddercan you elaborate?[11:04] Bendini: what is salient to someone isn't completely a choice[11:05] Bendini: but what you notice is based on what you've learned is useful to pay attention to[11:07] Bendini: I could say something about forests leaves and trees[11:07] Bendini: but it would be a bit cliche[11:08] Bendini: something that might sink in would be more like someone paying attention to what is going on at the binary level as bits are moving between the hard drive memory and cpu[11:09] Bendini: yes, it is useful to know what is going on so you understand other things[11:10] Bendini: but hyperfixating on that while you are writing code on a much higher level of abstraction[11:10] Bendini: in a sense, you are "seeing things that others have been trained not to see"[11:10] Bendini: or don't understand[11:10] Bendini: but doing that on a frame by frame level rather than an intutive "you know what's up" kinda level[11:11] Bendini: is going to result in glaring errors from the stuff you aren't paying enough attention to[11:15] promethea: it's not autism except possibly to the degree that autism weakens one's priors[11:16] Bendini: agree, there are plenty of basic bitch autists[11:17] Bendini: but like, the autistic catgirl cluster[11:18] Bendini: it is a recurring pattern that some of them obsess over social reality in the way ziz does, yet keep getting into abusive relationships which were predictable from the outset[11:18] Bendini: which idk, maybe this is a bit of a basic bitch take here[11:19] Bendini: but this seems like the opposite of what should happen if they had reached the higher plane of knowledge that cannot be explained in words[11:20] promethea: I'm not expecting all men to be able to do twenty pull-ups just because testosterone improves upper body strength[11:22] promethea: the "eldritch" neurotype might also be called "psychoticism" but in the sense of a personality trait like extroversion and not in the sense of mental illness[11:22] Bendini: no, but if those men claim to be much stronger because they have the magical testosterone elixir[11:22] Bendini: and they keep getting beaten up by 5ft anorexic girls[11:23] Bendini: at what point do you say "no, you do not have the thing you claim to have"[11:30] promethea: no what I've been trying to say is that there appears to be a neurotype-level difference in how people process some types of information with predictable (in terms of not requiring loads of epicycles) upsides (having an easier time making accurate models where they contradict consensus reality) and downsides (having an easier time making inaccurate models where they contradict consensus reality)[11:30] Bendini: the psychotiticism framing does help explain part of it[11:31] Bendini: but that feels like the motte[11:31] Bendini: it's the bailey I have trouble with[11:31] promethea: I can't comment on the precise situation with the Bay catgirls because I'm not familiar enough with it to feel comfortable making non-obvious inferences[11:33] Bendini: okay[11:33] Bendini: I wonder how my experiences with psychedelics map into this though[11:34] promethea: a bit of a shitpost-y formulation might be that high psychoticism-as-a-personality-trait is like having the safety guards off the [insert power tool that best fits the analogy] of your mind; it makes it easier to make some cuts that you'd otherwise struggle with, but it also makes it easier to cut things you wouldn't actually want to cut like yourself[11:34] promethea: psychedelics would be expected to increase psychoticism-as-a-personality-trait[11:35] Bendini: you'd expect them to do it while on them though[11:35] promethea: both temporarily (very strongly) and permanently (from what it seems)[11:35] Bendini: I seem to get neither in some important ways[11:36] Bendini: like certain kinds of art and music[11:36] Bendini: it was a sanity check of sorts[11:37] promethea: (this also fits with my experience that when my dopamine levels are increased I get better at the thinks but also more likely to be overconfidently wrong, and that most antipsychotics are dopamine antagonists, etc.)[11:38] Bendini: if I cannot see mediocre art as anything more than mediocre art while I'm hallucinating, it really isn't a case of me not being open to it[11:39] Bendini: it's a case of wine in expensive bottles[11:40] Bendini: I do think I have had some changes though[11:40] Bendini: more sympathy to points of view people cannot express verbally[11:46] promethea: I don't think "finding deep meaning in mediocre art" is any kind of a necessary characteristic of increased PAAPT (psychoticism-as-a-you-know-what), especially given that "mediocre art actually has deep meaning when on drugs" is the social reality[13:28] Bendini: I mean more the ability to be open minded and see the beauty in things[13:28] Bendini: because I could totally see the beauty of a brick wall[13:28] Bendini: just some girl showed me her pretty mediocre drawings[13:29] Bendini: and I was pretty speechless because the mediocrity was the salient characteristic[13:30] Bendini: I find it suspends judgement for a longer period[13:31] Bendini: but when my mind speaks out to me my concience is much louder[13:32] Bendini: this does not seem to be the standard reaction to psychadelics[13:32] Bendini: the basic bitch lurks deep in my lizard brain(dont agree with all of promethea's characterization of the phenomena; but its clearly seeded from looking at the same phenomena that i am. bendini does not get whats going on at all here.) ive referenced leveraging this to do what seems impossible or unpredictable to normies as creepy transfem mind powers. then people are like 'saraaah ccc somni said trans women have creepy mind powers thats crazy talk right?' and sarah c's like 'well yes its true trans women have a high iq'.but this is kind of eliding over different kinds of intelligence as neurotypes and collapsing it all into "iq". transfems and ashkies arent just generically "intelligent" theres specific neurotypes behind the inteligence. like for ashkies the sort of things that get recorded in metrics are high "verbal" iq and "math" iq and average "spatial" iq. thats a specífic signature.see: http://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documents/papers/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf"high intelligence" can look like hyperlexia and it can also look like dissociative mind powers that let people see through the matrix and be unnervingly good at reasoning over embeddings of yourself.like as intelligence increases, general capacity at solving problems increases. but maybe you shunt symbols instead of rotate objects to solves a problem. which affects what kinds of problems you can easily solve, given some are more amiable to one approach over another. there are many instances where visual proofs without words are much shorter than doing lots of algebra and vice-versa.these specificities allow high-inteligence subpopulations to collude within neuroclades along these lines of similarity. downstream of this is that a lot of ppl accuse both jews and transfems of conspiracy and being "friends" with each other when a lot of mutual information comes from neurotype similarity not meeting and deciding on a plan. (thats not to say, you know, that there are never meetings about how to take over the multiverse...)its amusing how like transfems will talk with each other about stuff and then ppl will be like "arghh!!! my eyes! this writing is painful static! its an infohazard!! its a glitch in the matrix!! AIEEEEGYRGHLSMERGLEGLunk pshhhur" and then say they dont understand what you are saying but it probably means you are a creepy violent misogynistic deeply sick male who is experiencing a psychotic break or something. give me tokens of submission to prove me wrong. if you were really prosocial youd drop this act right now and "act like a human".part of the reason im writing this is reading things like:<<promethea: gotta love how nobody can quite agree exactly how the people involved are Bad and Evil but people are nonetheless confident that they are schizophrenic/narcissistic/abusers/violent and must be confined and put on chemical mind control>>has a healing quality. like i independently derived this. people keep trying to erase these simple shapes of how things fit together. try to destroy peoples ability to build common knowledge and talk with each other. the authoritarians dont usually try to give good excuses about why they pretend its wrong besides saying "its absurd". when you are in a prison planet surrounded mostly by people who have decided to be cops or submit to them, reading this is like:https://youtu.be/DSTknzzBT9Yyou have to fractally reason through warpy things like people distantly noting "patient appears to be suffering from delusions of persecution'. and people trying to tell you that you are psychotic when like hi im writing this and not "psychotic". and you dont even have the social reality of people doing actual info-processing and at the end saying "well yeah its pretty obvious you arent suffering from a psychotic break, weird that anyone would claim that".what you have is people giving you strange looks and acting like what youve written is a tear in the fabric of reality releasing trillions of shrill screams from a place beyond time. its not because they dont understand, its because they have chosen not to. with different social groups of humans, different things elicit this response. like in a plural server i joined i talked about maybe there could be something in between being plural and being a singlet and they acted like id spoken static until someone said "oh thats [short handle for this concept]" and then everyone relaxed and stopped acting as if they couldnt understand what i was saying because there was no longer any local social threat to dynamically processing this information in front of other humans. they learned from the exclaimer that it was a Thing in their culture.when people cant anticipate a priori where dynamically processing information in front of a lot of people will land them wrt the local overton window, as a solution they will just refuse to do this. one way to refuse to do this is to say "im sorry i dont understand what you are saying its like painful static. ack! stop trying to explain i dont want to understand it might turn me evil or something!!" which is an accurate assessment if they were coerced into using the words good and evil to mean alignment and disalignment with local social consensus respectively.like the strategy of people who want to contain those floricdly hemorrhaging eldritch knowledge all over the place is to have a constarnt investment of authoritarian power to suppress this: <<Reject invest-y power. Some kinds of power increase your freedom. Some other kinds require an ongoing investment of your time and energy, and explode if you fail to provide it. The second kind binds you, and ultimately forces you to give up your values. The second kind is also easier, and you'll be tempted all the time.>>https://squirrelinhell.blogspot.com/2018/01/superhuman-meta-process.htmlunlike true things which will keep reforming and can be lazily evaluated from looking around you with no memory. you dont need as much energy poured into constantly refreshing the cache of who you are supposed to pretend is having a psychotic break. the authoritarian strat loses out in the long term against anarchist cooperation between agents that have learned enough to be able to consistently exploit their knowledge of Dread Horrors of the Abyss. who no longer need to dodge bullets.#i was going to reblog but then tumblr ate my reblog#and i OCR'd it from screenshots#which i almost always take before posting on tumblr#but then afterwards realized i wrote a post instead of a reblog
somnilogical reblogged wingedcatgirl transgenderer Follow okay so you know the trope where when you get too much eldritch knowledge and suddenly you start seeing giant monsters everywhere that are invisible to everyone else? that’s what being a trans woman is like.
somnilogical Follow Anonymous asked:Why is the whole conversation presupposing it would be bad for Emma to think child abuse was hot? Thinking something is hot is not the same as endorsing it actually happening, I thought this was something most rats understood?in isolation the act of being turned on by child abuse doesnt hurt anyone. seems fine to me. the problem is that like, elle banned emma from a group by falsely accusing them of finding child abuse hot.this is transmisogyny cut and dry. the issue is that elle is lying about emma in a way to try and coordinate along transmisogynistic lines of cooperation with other people against emma as a target.
