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Scientific explanations usually involve some sort of relations between different things that can be written down through mathematics or other forms of language.

I’m not sure how one could even construct an explanation for how physical processes can generate a first person experience that by definition cannot be captured by words. Words can arguably never fully capture feelings.

If this is true, and an explanation is fundamentally impossible, how do we know that this is not a poor question in the first place?

Side note: About 30% of philosophers do not even accept that there is a hard problem of consciousness

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  • Looking for challenging test cases, and then admitting to failure when one fails a test against them, is an essential feature of doing science or good philosophy. Searching for rationalization to pretend that one should not do such a test -- yes that is another option too... Not all worldviews are good philosophy, or consistent with methodological naturalism. Sure, go that route if you wish.
    – Dcleve
    Commented yesterday
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    Whether the problem is good or bad remains to be seen, but going from "not sure how one could even construct an explanation" to "explanation is fundamentally impossible" is definitely a bad argument. Just as asking "how do we know that this is not a poor question?" while we are in the early stages of studying matters involved, is definitely a bad question.
    – Conifold
    Commented yesterday
  • @Conifold It’s not that the argument was purely that I’m unsure so you’re obviously misreading. The argument was that explanations are fundamentally third person and it thus seems impossible to capture first person experience
    – Syed
    Commented 19 hours ago
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    Not all problems are to be evaluated based on their scientific value. Commented 19 hours ago
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    There is nothing wrong with this question. Let's reopen it.
    – causative
    Commented 14 hours ago

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For centuries nobody had a clue of what life could be or what even constituted life? It was obvious what was alive and what not. It had a similar chasm between lifeless matter and living organisms as we now experience with the hard problem. Henri Bergson used the term élan vital or life force to distinguish the animate from the inanimate. A belief known as vitalism stated:

living organisms are fundamentally different from non-living entities because they contain some non-physical element or are governed by different principles than are inanimate things.

By 1931, vitalism was all but dead. Of course we can not be sure that the Hard Problem will go the same way but I think the demise of vitalism is a warning to not give up so easily. Some philosphers, however, do think that the Hard Problem cannot be resolved by man. It is called mysterianism.

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    And today, roughly 100 years later, "what is life" remains unanswered. Life is defined by a set of properties, no real definition nor theory. Meanwhile, the reductionist programme that promised to replace vitalism, has itself foundered. "Emergent" physicalism, in which what is real is NOT reducible to physics, including life, is itself just more "magic" as emergence is itself just a TBD stand-in, with no content. So IS vitalism really dead?
    – Dcleve
    Commented yesterday
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    @Dcleve You tell me. I certainly don't know any vitalists. I also think we understand life and that there is no longer anything mysterious.
    – Philomath
    Commented yesterday
  • So philomath, you think that contrary to biologists, biology reduces to chemistry? And that contrary to chemists, chemistry reduces to physics? And there is no mystery in this, even though the experts in both fields say reduction does not work?
    – Dcleve
    Commented yesterday
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    @Dcleve I don't want to show off with my education, but when I studied chemistry and I did a major in molecular biology, yes, that was definitely the consensus.
    – Philomath
    Commented yesterday
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    @Olivier5 Thanks for your fact free opinion and sorry for me showing up here being so dumb...
    – Philomath
    Commented 22 hours ago
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As first described by Chalmers, the hard problem is not unanswerable. He described it as a fairly concrete and specific demand for a physics-like theory of consciousness.

See: Can the hard problem of consciousness, in principle, be answered with a mathematical formula?

Some people have interpreted the hard problem of consciousness as something that physically-based theories of consciousness will forever fail to resolve. They've taken it up as a shield against materialism; they say, "yes, maybe you can say HOW but you can never say WHY!" And what exactly would be the "why" to satisfy such people? Nothing would satisfy them! They will always allude mysteriously to something beyond science.

But Chalmers, who introduced the hard problem of consciousness, did not have that kind of unmeetable standard in mind. Chalmers was actually quite friendly to physically-based theories of consciousness.

Chalmers described the hard problem of consciousness as a problem of finding physics-like mathematical laws that describe the relationship between a physical system and the qualia produced by that system. These laws might be compared to the laws that describe the relationship between a set of moving charges and the electromagnetic forces produced on those charges. They're just formulas we could write on paper; writing those formulas, according to Chalmers, could be a potential solution to the hard problem of consciousness.

Here's a quote from Chalmers about the kind of theory that might qualify as a solution to the hard problem of consciousness:

There is nothing particularly spiritual or mystical about this theory—its overall shape is like that of a physical theory, with a few fundamental entities connected by fundamental laws. It expands the ontology slightly, to be sure, but Maxwell did the same thing. Indeed, the overall structure of this position is entirely naturalistic, allowing that ultimately the universe comes down to a network of basic entities obeying simple laws, and allowing that there may ultimately be a theory of consciousness cast in terms of such laws.

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  • Considering there are tens of billions of neurons in the brain, and 100 trillion connections, one might question whether it's a similarly unfulfillable request to ask for consciousness to be written as formulas on paper. Somewhat similar to asking for formulas for how the universe works. We can describe various parts of the universe, and various parts of the brain. But it doesn't really make sense to ask for a succinct explanation of all of it. It's unclear whether there's still a part missing to cross some categorical difference of experience, or whether only incremental progress is left.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented 1 hour ago
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The mind-body problem is puzzling to us, but for all we know, its solution could be very simple. Remember Christopher Colombus' egg? The solution was objectively very simple, yet nobody at the Spanish Court could find it... Some of them might even have assumed that the problem was unsolvable.

I guess they might have called it "the hard problem of how to make an egg stand", until Colombus showed them the solution.

As for your proposal to drop the question entirely, that is, in fact, what most people do. They can't find an answer to this question, so they move on; they stop thinking about it. And that's their prerogative.

Others, though, keep chewing on it. One way of doing just that is to rephrase the question, again and again until it becomes a "good question". To reframe the problem until it becomes solvable. For instance, personally I would not speak of "how physical processes can generate a first person experience" but "how biological processes can generate a person's experience". It seems important to me that the biological nature of cognition is recognized, because life is already a sort of cognition, using languages like DNA. To consider the mind-body problem as physical is IMO mistaken. It's a biology problem.

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  • The failures in reducing psychology to biology have been even more thorough than the failures in reducing biology to chemistry or chemistry to physics. Recasting the hard problem as merely reducing psychology to biology rather than all the way to physics is not going to help. plato.stanford.edu/entries/scientific-reduction/#UnreIssu
    – Dcleve
    Commented 14 hours ago
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    @Dcleve I'm not talking of reduction of the mind to the brain, but of the production of an efficacious, causal mind by the brain. A candle can produce a flame, but the flame does not "reduce" to the candle. The flame is its own thing. It does things (light, heat) that the candle alone cannot do.
    – Olivier5
    Commented 14 hours ago
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    @Dcleve Likewise, an orchestra is needed to produce Beethoven's 5th, but the symphony does not reduce to the orchestra.
    – Olivier5
    Commented 13 hours ago
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    @Dcleve Regarding the difficulty to understand how the brain can produce the mind, you are right. It remains hard, in the sense that it's yet to be achieved and it probably won't be achieved anytime soon. But it's important to frame difficult problems as precisely as possible. In this case, it helps to frame it biologically for many reasons, some of which you and I have already discussed. One reason we haven't talk of yet is that life is in itself already a form of logos, hence the concept of biosemantics. Life is already half-way there.
    – Olivier5
    Commented 13 hours ago
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    @Dcleve Aren't mechanical clocks physical? If you use a hammer to smash one, and collect the pieces, you have the same amount of matter than before, when the click was functioning, but now this matter is not functioning anymore. Structures are causal. Hence forms and ideas too.
    – Olivier5
    Commented 12 hours ago
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One does not need to speculate about the state of the hard problem of consciousness. If it is the question

How does an organism benefit from the development that some of his mental processes are conscious?

then the hard problem of consciousness is the legitime question for the biological function of a specific capability developed during the biological evolution.

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  • Yes, the evolution of the functions of consciousness is a perfectly legitimate question. The "problem" is that physicalism assumes the causal closure of the physical, and if consciousness evolves, then mental is causal. William James, and Karl Popper both spelled out how the evolutionary test case refutes epiphenomenalism and identity theories.
    – Dcleve
    Commented 13 hours ago
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The "Hard Problem of Consciousness" is that consciousness is real and functional, and all efforts to explain this under physicalism have failed.

The problem is that physicalism asserts as dogma that consciousness cannot be causal on matter. Yet the only way to explain the evolutionarily tuned nature of consciousness is to admit to its causal efficacy.

The Hard Problem stands in the same relation to physicalism as the similarly intractable Problem of Evil stands relative to an omni-deity. Another name for a "hard problem" is a refuting test case.

The nature of consciousness that we have discovered thru methodological naturalism, is incompatible with physicalism. This is only a problem if one is a dogmatist, and refuses to reject theories when they are refuted.

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    If someone who's strongly opposed to physicalism says "physicalism asserts", it's always a good idea to see if that aligns with what actual physicalists say and believe (it doesn't, even if we ignore the dogma accusations, but these discussions never go well, and I wouldn't be surprised if I pointed out this exact same claim in the past, so I'll just say that).
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented 16 hours ago
  • @NotThatGuy -- Ad hominem -- rejection of a claim based on attacking the author's other views, is a fallacy. If you think that physicalists do not hold that consciousness is a-causal, the way to improve the answer is to provide a link supporting your claim.
    – Dcleve
    Commented 14 hours ago
  • @NotThatGuy If you want to read an example of philosophers arguing the via negativa, here is one link: davidpapineau.co.uk/uploads/1/8/5/5/18551740/via_negativa.pdf
    – Dcleve
    Commented 13 hours ago
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    While your link argues for "non-physical" by appealing to ignorance, I would suggest taking some inspiration from that in terms of addressing various possibilities, instead of just asserting physicalism is one possibility, which may be the possibility physicalists are least likely to accept. "the way to improve the answer is to provide a link supporting your claim" - that is a good suggestion for the claim you made in your answer, rather than shifting the burden of proof onto others to refute your claim (but as a vocal physicalist, I'm at least some evidence for my claim about physicalists).
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented 10 hours ago
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It is a poor question that conflates ontology and epistemology.

Physical objects and events (Popper's World 1) are the ontology of reality, what actually exists and happens.

Experiences and other mental processes (Popper's World 2) are the epistemology of reality, what the person knows, feels and believes about it.

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    So you only exist because you know that you exist? Or do you non-exist in deep sleep and re-exist after waking?
    – Rushi
    Commented 21 hours ago
  • @Rushi can we say that the physical body persists physically and the mental body persists when in awareness? The word 'you' conflates these, but it is a plural word. My computer is both transistors, and software running on it, yes?
    – Scott Rowe
    Commented 19 hours ago
  • @ScottRowe 5 centuries ago when people used 'thee/thou' would the contents and semantics under discussion change?
    – Rushi
    Commented 18 hours ago
  • @Rushi try referring to yourself as 'we' in a conversation:-) Yet, it is accurate, nobody is just this one singular ego. Or any one part of their body. So, yeah, semantics should reflect reality. And knowledge. If they can't co-occur in one statement, oh well.
    – Scott Rowe
    Commented 16 hours ago

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