human1011
human1011 2 months ago (edited)
A few days ago, fellow YouTuber Arabic101 made a response video to my most recent YouTube video. I wanted to make this post just to address a few of the things claimed in his video, as many viewers have reached out asking for a response. ~~~ TL;DR: It seems that many Muslims who saw my video were instilled with some doubts towards the proper pronunciation of ḍād during Qur’anic recitation. This was never my intention - I have no training and little familiarity with tajwid or related Islamic disciplines. The video was meant to highlight linguistic evidence towards an alternate pronunciation of ḍād, NOT to imply that this pronunciation should be used in religious recitation. It is perfectly possible to believe that Arabic speakers a thousand years ago may have pronounced the letter the way described in the video without implying that the Prophet pronounced it this way. ~~~ Ok, now I’m gonna get into the weeds a bit; I invite you to watch the original video first. Regarding Arabic being called the “language of ḍād,” Arabic101 makes a large point about ḍād not being the rarest sound, and how the epithet “language of ḍād” does not imply as such. I agree - but that’s the point of the video! I was trying to correct the notion that many Arabic speakers have regarding that sound. For example, I made a video over a year ago going over all the Arabic sounds in MSA, and one of the top comments claims “Fun fact: the letter ض (Dhad) /d?/ doesn't exist in any other language, that's why some people nickname Arabic language as "لغة الضاد" (The language of Dhad).” Similar comments with thousands of likes can be found in the TikTok video I made on the same subject. Many Arabic speakers reiterate the myth of “language of ḍād” implying ḍād only exists in Arabic, and I thought it would serve as a nice hook. Also, when I called ḍād the rarest sound, I meant rare in a cross-linguistic sense, as in the sound is rare across the world's languages, not that the sound is rarely found within the Arabic language. Funnily enough, the letter ظ is both rarer cross-linguistically and within Arabic. And yet, the myth about the “language of ḍād” persists. The next point is on the classification of Standard Arabic. Arabic101 claims that Modern Standard Arabic and Classical Arabic (the language of the Qur’an) are the same, but this is incorrect. Though they are very similar, especially grammatically, there are many differences, including in pronunciation. I won’t go into detail here, but I encourage you to look into it. So, when I say that ḍād is a plosive in “Modern Arabic,” I am not claiming it is a plosive in Classical Arabic. Then, there’s a lot of discussion on the proper pronunciation according to Qur’anic recitation. This, I think, is the crux of the disagreement - the proposed pronunciation I give is not intended to supplant the one as used by modern Muslim scholars. For those who are unfamiliar, tajwid is the Islamic science of learning how to recite the Qur’an as it was pronounced by the Prophet. By no means do I, a non-Muslim with no training in tajwid, claim to reject or cast doubt on proper Qur’anic recitation. We know that dialectal variation of Arabic existed all across the peninsula well before the time of the Prophet. It is not unreasonable to think - in fact, it is by many experts believed - that the proper Arabic of Qur’anic recitation differs from much of the spoken Arabic at the time. The fact that jim is a moon letter despite phonetically resembling the sun letters, for example, suggests that the Prophet’s pronunciation of the letter was different than many other speakers’. Moreover, much of the Arabic loanwords mentioned in my video (evidence which Arabic101 conveniently neglects to mention) were almost certainly spread by lay Arabic speaking peoples, not learned through Qur’anic recitation. There are a few other minor points in there, but largely I don’t think it’s worth belaboring them. Arabic101 makes the point that I claim ḍād may have been pronounced like a “y,” which is not really what I said/meant there, but I didn't make my point very clearly and should’ve phrased it better. He also talks about how my “strongest evidence,” the fact that the rare sound exists in an extant dialect, doesn’t necessarily imply an ancient pronunciation retained, but could also refer to a novel, innovative pronunciation. Though there is good reason to think that this is indeed an ancient pronunciation retained (check out the source from which this information came from for more), he is absolutely right that it could be an innovation. As a final point, I wanna address something that Arabic101 didn’t say, but that many of the comments did. That being, that my perspective of ḍād’s pronunciation is a largely “orientalist” point of view that ignores evidence and Islamic science. The truth is, this perspective on ḍād’s pronunciation is believed by a number of both western and eastern scholars. It is based on plenty of evidence that I plainly provided in the description of the original video, and in no way diminishes the Qur’anic realization. Ok, that’s about it; I hope this addresses most people’s concerns! EDIT: It's also come to my attention that Arabic101 has previously spread some misinformation regarding Arabic. If you go to his channel for tajwid so be it, but I'd avoid any linguistic insights.
↪ ↪ If you can, please support the Channel: https://www.patreon.com/101Arabic ↪ ↪ My Books: https://store.arabic101.org/product-category/books/english-books/ -----------------------------...
614
Arabic101 also made a video about how Arabic is the source of all languages on earth. So, y'know, he really knows what he's talking about. /s
338
Reply
I didn't know about Arabic 101's video, but I found your response a very enjoyable read.
114
Reply
That's the problem with "sacred" languages (like hebrew, for example). There's a tendency to discuss and argue every single nuance and tilt from what one might consider the "purest" form. It frequently reaches ridiculous hights.
147
Reply
Arabic 101 made a video about Duolingo being haram (against Muslim practices) because it teaches you words like 'alcohol' or some languages teach words that refer to other spiritual practices. Keep in mind, these were not in the Arabic corse. They made a video about how mentioning other religions or alternate lifestyle is haram. So, they're someone who would isolate people to "protect" them from the outside world. Edit: rewatched their (Arabic 101's) video aboht Duolingo. They said that Duolingo was trying to push ideas onto children. They complained about there being gay characters, Zara the woman in the hajab doing things unfit for a woman, and I think they denied evolution (but I'm not really sure).
99
Reply
It's kinda annoying that he calls his channel Arabic 101 when it's just an Islamic channel. Makes it seem like it's as legit as the other language 101 channels when it isn't
74
Reply
You’re absolutely right - from an Arab raised Muslim non-scholar myself- And your response is remarkable. The issue is, for many Muslims/Muslim Scholars Arabic is not only the Language of the Qoran but is supposed to be the Language of Adam and Eve, the language in which God named all things and taught Adam, and the “first language”. You can see how that can be problematic for an objective historical/linguistic study. It also clashes with the fact there never was ever a “single” “correct” Arabic universally spoken or even meant to be so. It also clashes with the fact that the Qoraan has loan words from Aramaic and other Semetic languages. Anyways the best part is that his handle is Arabic 101 and yours is Human1011
78
Reply
Looks like I'm not going to trust Arabic 101 anymore.
20
Reply
You should probably make a video of this, not to stir drama but so viewers that, let's be honest do not want to read in a video streaming platform, may hear your rebuttal
45
Reply
The fact that he insists that the Quran is the only origin of MSA, despite that Arabic was exist before Islam is crazy
104
Reply
Not even kidding I was looking for information on this very topic. What I got from this is that, your pro Monica toon might have been a parallel pronunciation spoken by other Arabs, but is different then the daud in the Quran which is still retained. The parallel pronunciation could also be the same one as the Thani one
16
Reply
Nah.. dont worry, its very common to ppl to turn to defend when the topic touch a little tiny of something of their believes even if its on the opposite of evidence , and for islamic101 I mean Arabic101 its not shocking, this guy made a vid about how duolingo is haram and another one about who all languages originally came from Arabic.
4
Reply
Muslim here. Yes, Arabic had a lot of changes before Quran. Things like md (مَد) were completely different before, then later was changed to make some words easier to pronounce. So nothing you said is false info, it's just that some people forget that Arabic is older than Quran and that Quran came to challenge Arab poets in their own game. And that Quran came to signify that this version of Arabic is the last version. Mohamed (PBUH) did pronounce the 'dad' like we do nowadays, Because the original form of Quran ISN'T WRITTEN or else it would be corrupted, its original recitation is carried in mind and is taught like so, by recitation and memorization. (Sorry for my bad English)
29
Reply
But why use Islamic scholars and interpret their works in a secular way? The works you mentioned were intentionally interpreted in a way that differed from scholars for hundreds of years.
9
Reply
I still think Arabic101 is at least partially correct in some regards. Especially his explanation of how our pronunciation of Dad today fits very much the historical description of how it was pronounced, by pressing the sides of the tongue with the roof of the mouth, and the tip of the tongue touching but not pressing behind the upper teeth. Also, at the end of the day, what you present is just a theory. And he also says that the ancient precursor to Dad could have been what you say it is. He didn't deny that I think.
5
Reply
That's sadly what happens when you believe Arabic is the "source of all languages on Earth." Religion should not be used as a source on linguistics.
57
Reply
These are notes for ignorant claims that I found in the comment section Arabic 101 never said the quran is the origin of arabic. He said that the arabic language owes too much to the quran because the quran was the book who preserved the arabic fusha from disappearing due to the fact the quran is the most eloquent book in all the arabic language and was revealed in a time where the arabic poetry and eloquence was at its epic and yet he challenged to give a book like him. Although they could not do it. The quran preserved all the main dialects of arabic, which is called the Seven Ahref. It is like the seven ways of recitation. So, the quran was the base in which called now the arabic fusha or standard arabic is based on the MSA was based on. The dialects of people have nothing to do with MSA or fusha. Secondly, some people claimed that Arabic 101 claims that arabic is the origins of languages. Basically, the man didn't claim that it is a fact. In fact, islam never said that either. The man said it is just a theory , and there is some research that was made for that claim . Arabic 101 also gives some arguments, and instead of mocking, go face him with the proof that his theory is false if you have courage. Note: The arabic language studies were all based upon the quran and islam. So, islamic studies and arabic studies are insperatable. Which was preserved sound by sound. Letter by letter to preserve Allah's words. So, claiming that the sound ض was different in the time of the prophet is one of the stupidest claims ever, and I think the reason beyond this is the oriantalism and the west inferiority complex toward the arabic language and Islam generally. NOTE: The classic arabic and MSA are the same. The only difference is that the classical arabic was spoken 1400 ago. MSA was based on classical, but they added some new modern words to make arabic more flexible with time changing. The Fusha arabic, which quran 's language does not change. Although arabs spoken dialects change with the time and has nothing to do with fusha or ض sound. SO NO ONE WILL COME TO AND ARGUE THAT LANGUAGES CHANGE OVER TIME.
4
Reply
When I was first learning Arabic, I also came across the "language of ḍād" myth. I found your video very informative as I had never considered how Arabic pronunciation may have changed over time the way I knew that English has.
9
Reply
i LOVE your videos - especially your shorts. if you ever need nerd soldiers, there are a bunch of linguafiles who love you, bro. keep up the amazing work
3
Reply
I Really enjoy your videos, you explain everything so well for non Arabic speakers. Much appreciated 🙏
2
Reply
After I bit of research I found that there is this huge controversy among scholars on what the correct pronunciation of ض is in Classical Arabic and there are lots of books and videos explaining this. I can recommend the videos: Library Chats - Episode 6: The Language (and Letter) of ض | Shaykh Dr. Yasir Qadhi The Issue of the Pronunciation of ض - The Rakhāwa Problem
3
Reply
the part where they claimed your evidence is westernized is silly given sibawayh himself described the articulation of ض pretty much how you described it that dude has very biased and outlandish takes, you should check his video about arabic being the origin of all languages 😭
21
Reply
I feel ashamed of Arabic 101's video. it is unfortunate that many Muslims don't have basic listening skills, him believing that the premise of your video is Arabic is that language of da'd. Also as a student of classical Arabic, I've heard that classical Arabic is a super set of MSA, so they both are not equal which was incorrectly stated by Arabic 101, the irony. Arabic 101 might be correct about the argument of da'd's pronunciation. But through out his video he's trying to refute arguments that you didn't make. He doesn't address many of the arguments you presented and it felt that he had a script which he wanted to go through with regardless of what your video was saying. It was good that Arabic 101 presented the other side of the picture but his "full of himself" and "righteous" style is the issue. Many muslims spend years to perfect the pronunciation of classical Arabic because of Quran, but unfortunately many of them fail to learn basic common sense and courtesy from the very words they're trying to perfect.
22
Reply
So, arabic101's response isn't worth watching. First two minutes into the video and he is off point: he took your "the language of dad" statement as your proof instead of a mere "hey let's talk about dad". And failed even more trying to prove or disprove the statement. He didn't know what he wanted to say. Muslims are blinded by their religion so they perceived your video as an attack on their beliefs. And most (seemingly most) commenters pointed out your origin, native language, affiliation with western culture – anything but your arguments – despite the fact that you cited two Muslim scholars and not a single westerner. Also, arabic101 keeps saying how perfect Arabic and the Qur'an is, that a missing letter won't change anything... But in the next short he proceeds: don't miss this dot otherwise it'll change the meaning. Believers are believers. Credo quia absurdum May the Pasta Monster bless you with infinite patience in dealing with obscurantists 😁
1
Reply
I know this isn't related to this post in particular, but I'd love to see you do a video on Na'vi
Reply
Imagine creating drama bc of a letter.
3
Reply
I think the misunderstanding happened at two points, you premised the video on the myth that "arabic is the language of dad". Yes, people today especially in different dialects can say things differently. I think you could've been clearer about you tackling this myth rather than making an argument for it. The second problem is that it wasn't mentioned in terms of time-line of when the "rarer" sound given in the final video. If it was mentioned that this is more of an ancient sound rather than the sound used around the time of the prophet muhammad that could have avoided a lot of issues and confusion.
3
Reply
I didn't have to read the text or watch his video, I completely believe you. His perspective is from a religious point of view not linguistic. He's clearly offended by science. Typical.
Reply
The internet has gone so corrupt that some clown wanted drama from human1011
13
Reply
At 10:22 he says Human1011 is a "non-Arab" and I'm sure he meant to say "non-native speaker" but it still pissed me off
3
Reply
I'm a little confused. You both agree that Arabic being called the language of ض doesn't need to mean it's the only language with the sound, but that is still the criteria that you tried to fulfil in your video. That the original ض was completely unique and therefore fits the theory. You say classical and MSN are different and I'm not knowledge enough about MSN to make a claim about that, but googling it only really suggests there's minimal differences and most Arabs don't really consider them different. Arabic101 does say thatض is pronounced as a plosive in some dialects today which I think is what you're pronouncing, but that's just a dialect and as far as I can tell classical ض is still pronounced the same today. You both agree that your suggested pronunciation could have existed in pre Islamic Arabia, his main problem was that he says you misinterpreted sibawayh, he demonstrated that the description of ض sibawayh described is the same as how it's pronounced in classical Arabic while you used his description as basis for your theoretical pronunciation. I think your suggestion that ض was pronounced differently after the time of the prophet is what caused so much confusion. I'm inclined to agree with him on this as I don't believe that's possible either and I don't remember you pronouncing the classical ض in your video, instead I think you opted for the Egyptian pronunciation (not sure?). Apart from that there's not much else conflicting I think you 2 said. I don't think it was personal against you or anything, he just seemed to have gotten a lot of questions about it and he seemed to appreciate your enthusiasm for the language. As for the top comment here saying he claims Arabic is the source of all languages, yes he has a video with a clickbait title saying that but I don't think he made that claim at all in the video and instead just showed that it's a really old language with influence on other languages.
1
Reply
Its absolutely crazy how many people in this comment section have formulated their own opinions on this video without watching it properly and just looking at the title and then making racist, Islamophobic comments. The spread of false information and hate is absolutely mind boggling. Is this community like really xenophobic? Do you hate discovering new views and perspectives about the same topic? Do you guys hate admitting that you might be wrong? In the video he clearly states, unambiguously, that, this is not only, just a theory, but also that he understands and accepts the idea that languages develop differently and in different ways and that there may be another explanation for language development. He only claims that 'Arabic is a very old language' and that it has affected many other languages, which are both true. Nearly everyone in the comment section makes disgusting comments about him and then extending it to not only the Arabs but also the whole religion of Islam and even religion in general; calling it religious extremism, which is Islamophobic in nature, is a gross exaggeration of his content. Would you say that in person? Would you say that he was a terrorist to his face? And even if he did say that Arabic is the source of all languages on Earth, would that make any of his points less valid? Just because you have a single wrong or differing opinion does not mean that your other work is any less valid. Even the creator, @human1011 commented without actually watching the video which is interesting since you are questioning his integrity for not properly answering or responding to much of your points made in the video and omitting them, whilst you are legit just being racist and a hypocrite.
4
Reply
I saw a video of him once and it had an obvious linguistic mistake, so i knew then he's neither arab nor even that good in arabic to be qualified to teach it😑 !! But unfortunately i didn't correct him and i regret not pointing his mistake out and when i saw your post i thought i have to say that so non arab people would know that he's not accurate and he's got some mistakes and maybe plenty😬
1
Reply
No need to worry about them a lot of them think Arabic started with Islam not hundreds of years before
2
Reply
This debate is a very good example of how religion and science (at least in the Western tradition) are not compatible. I watched both the videos, and much of the confusion is caused by Arabic101's claim that MSA and Classical Arabic are the same thing. This view, widely held by orthodox Arabic scholars, is nonsense in Western linguistics. A language does not change over a thousand years, only if it becomes extinct.
Reply
This would be a conversation better had between you too tbh, both should take down posts made about each other and address the criticisms
Reply
to be honest, "original pronunciation" is something that really interests me when it comes to religions. as an israeli/Palestinian jew I've always been angry at a.... let's say a specific group of jews that we have here who scoff at non believers believing that they are better than them but then pray in their version of hebrew that is VERY different from the original hebrew pronunciation, even as to completely lack the original pronunciation of ע,ט,ח,ק and kiiiinda צ(although the correct pronunciation of צ is a completely different and nuanced debate to have) I remember I saw a rabbi actually comment on this saying that while there are other groups of Judaism that have pronunciation more similar to the original hebrew that doesn't mean that all jews have to stop using their pronunciation due to mannnnny factors. (I also want to clarify that the "elitists" I'm talking about are a minority within Ashkenazi Judaism and do not reflect how most Ashkenazis are and or how i view them, I too am Ashkenazi). I don't really believe that there is a "correct" hebrew, all the hebrew dialects are hebrew. but it really interests me that despite the fact that we now know how SOME aspects of hebrew most likely originally sounded like when the prayers and texts were written, and yet not all community try to pray with that version. it makes sense, because a big part of religion is calture, and each community of judaism developed it's own calture, which is infused with the language, so it makes sense why they wouldn't want to abandon their language because there is a more """"correct""""" one. but it still interests me what the majority of common jews think about that
3
Reply
The problem is that you have already used some convincing evidence that no one can say you are wrong that easily He's arguing that way cuz this threats his notion of Qur'an preservation His response video seems to be a form of pure fundamentalism so don't care about him He's not ready to accept that people dialects changes overtime and if it weren't the case, then why I wouldn't find some difficulty understanding my Iraqi neighbours (all respect to them)
12
Reply
It's great that you keep a level head and want to be fair. but honestly some people will never listen or change, to these people there is NO distinction between Arabic as a Language and Islam. They like to pretend that history started with them. Their 'scholars' called all poetic and literary achievements, all culture and life before them an "age of ignorance" جاهلية how arrogant and self obsessed can one be ? Keep doing your thing and pay no attention to someone pretending to teach Arabic 101 while his whole channel looks like an Islamic Imam channel. تكلمنا العربية قبل الإسلام، كنا مهد الحضارات قبل الإسلام، حبينا و رثينا ورتلنا الشعر قبل الإسلام. لا كره ولا تقليل من قيمة. مجرد تذكير أنو مو كل سكان المنطقة والناطقين بالعربية مسلمين. لأنو البعض ينسى او يتناسى احياناً
1
Reply
- a guy who can't pronounce Arabic letters lmao
1
Reply
Maybe we can try together to build the accurate IPA symbol for ض. My suggestion is pharyngealized lateralized voiced dental fricative, /ðˡˤ/. Can you pronounce it?
1
Reply