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wrote (edited )

I’m happy to have an open discussion about my earlier comments. But I don’t appreciate the snarky accusations and projections. You guys are being very toxic about it. I deleted the post because I don’t want the negative attention.

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wrote

Deleting because you don't want negative attention is rather telling. You could have said you realized you were wrong and deleted to not further upset anyone and contribute to bigotry. You could have edited your comment, or replied to it, acknowledging you were harmful and take accountability.

But instead you dirty deleted and doubled down.

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wrote (edited )

You guys will probably kill me for this, but I don’t think I’m wrong. Israel has done terrible crimes, and I’m in no mood to be sympathetic towards antisemitism. If the Jews want to support Israel, they can handle antisemitism on their own. My sympathies have expired. I don’t think this is an unreasonable stance to take. It does not come from a place of bigotry.

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wrote

Well, kudos to you for tripping down on your bigotry.

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wrote (edited )

And kudos for you to see it as bigotry. You have a very rigid mind.

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wrote

"Why are you upset I'm calling your entire race if people evil and conflating them with an entity many including yourself disavow?"

Tell us monkey, do you conflate ISIS/IL with all Muslims, or Arabic peoples as well for that matter? Do you cast all Black folks as disgusting for the genocided actions of some Black African dictators?

And if not, why not? Feels like you should, given your apparently flexible mind.

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wrote (edited )

Of course not. I am perfectly capable of distinguishing between the two. But unlike muslims with Al Quaeda, where the vast majority of muslims did not support Al Qaeda, but were tarnished with them anyway. It seems the case with Israel the majority of Jews do support Israel, and the majority of western non Jews do as well. I am disgusted with how much unconditional support Israel is getting from the majority of the western world. I cannot believe that modern western society, which prides itself on being anti-genocide, is passively watching or actively egging on the Israelis to commit colonial genocide in Palestine.

Furthermore I am disgusted by the amount of hate ordinary Palestinians are getting in western countries for speaking out against the genocide of their families. It makes my heart bleed to hear that Palestinians are having to deal with the double cruelty of genocide and being hated in western countries that were supposed to be safe.

So yes I’m aware some right wing nutters are using all this as an excuse to hate on Jews. But compared to the huge amount of suffering going on right now, it ranks low on my sympathy list. I’m surprised you guys are so upset about this. You need to pull your heads in.

"Why are you upset I'm calling your entire race if people evil and conflating them with an entity many including yourself disavow?"

Do not quote or insinuate me saying something I have never said.

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wrote

I’m surprised you guys are so upset about this. You need to pull your heads in.

Why would they not be upset that you've effectively given antisemites a pass to be antisemitic? And then be inherently antisemitic yourself by saying you don't care. I'm not sure how this is even permitted here. How is hate begetting hate, oppression winding into itself, a stance anarchists permit? You should be banned if you're not going to learn.

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wrote (edited )

If you think I am arguing antisemities deserve a free pass, we cannot have a reasonable conversation.

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wrote

I think you're effectively giving them one when you say that antisemitism ranks low on your bigotry sympathy list. Why do you have a bigotry sympathy list?

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Because there are many issues in this world and I cannot focus on all of them. Right now hate against Palestinians ranks way more highly for me. I have heard not one word from any of you about the hate that Palestians are suffering everyday in western countries. Dare I accuse you all of being silent anti-Palestinians? I am starting to suspect you might be.

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wrote

I think people have said and posted more in opposition and solidarity with Palestinian people than you have first of all. Secondly, you proceed to undermine Palestinian solidarity and any solidarity by ranking bigotries. So I'm the one suspecting you're the DARVO bigot. I don't know why you're being like this. I hate Israel and all the support given to them to genocide Palestinians, but you've taken the extra step to rile up antisemitic sentiments. Just why?

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wrote (edited )

I have not riled up antisemitic sentiments. This is ridiculous. You guys are projecting onto me. Go find some actual anti-semitics and argue with them.

I've seen only minor amounts of Palestinian support in my year on this website, and since I've stirred up the hornet's nest I've heard nothing at all about Palestine and tons about my supposed antisemitism. You guys are starting to sound like a bunch of pro-Zionist lunatics.

You guys are extremely disappointing me. Have you got nothing better to do with your lives than accuse someone of antisemitism for expressing fatigue with unconditional Israeli support?

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wrote (edited )

Omg... I hope you realize the error of your ways soon monkey_gamer. I think you're an otherwise nice person, but this is really not cool.

Edit: What unconditional Israeli support are you seeing here? You literally commented objecting to a post about how the IDF butchers babies. What support of Israel is that if not coming from you??? You're so twisted up.

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wrote

I don't see any unconditional Israeli support on here. I didn't say that. But I've heard no discussion whatsoever about the hate Palestinian people have been regularly facing in western countries. Yet apparently you guys care tons about anti-semitism. Well antisemitism sucks but why no discussion about anti-Palestinianism? You guys don't seem to care about anti-Palestianism at all.

And I was objecting to that image because I find it in poor taste. Scaring a baby's face does not seem to me a good way to capture what I see Israel doing, which is bombing and shooting the crap out of the Palestinians.

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wrote

I don't know how you've garnered people here don't care about anti-Palestinianism at all... The hate fomented against Palestinians triggered abhorrent shootings against them in Vermont and beyond that we condemn and so forth continually. While you needlessly fan the flames of hate by saying you don't care about antisemitism? What purpose does that serve? No one is harping on you in order to hate on Palestinians. It's to rein you in and help you realize that you are not helping matters here.

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You are wasting my time. Please do not engage with me.

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wrote

Okie doke. This isn't going to just go away though. I think you can learn.

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You have no idea the bullshit I've had to tolerate in my lifetime. This is just a blip. The only lesson for me to learn here is that so-called activists have weird priorities on what they care about, and it's best not to waste my time arguing with them.

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wrote

Mm that's a lesson for you. Seriously be well. You were there when I acted up and I like everyone being here. People are seriously on your side more than you think.

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wrote (edited )

You’re sure as not fucking acting like it. Get a life.

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wrote

You know I'm a loser, monkey_gamer.

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wrote (edited )

I have no idea who you are crown of ice. You’re just a name I’ve been seeing around for some time. I don’t think you’re a loser or anyone here (except the occasional troll). But I don’t appreciate being hate slammed and scapegoated by the lot of you. I expect so much better and you’ve all disappointed me immensely.

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wrote

Graaah, why are so many here somehow actively against fostering any sense of community? You know me, I know you do.

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wrote

I really don’t. You don’t have a face or avatar so that makes hard. You all blur together, very hard to remember who is who.

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wrote (edited )

I'm sad. I think you're just being prickly now because people are dogpiling you. But you like people here. You literally said so in Elster_Penrose's appreciation post! You know about the Punini. I know you do. 😆

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wrote (edited )

Maybe I should stop saying what I know you know, but I just want things to be lighthearted around here, you know? It'll be okay.

Edit: I say this as I talk out the other side of my mouth about "being stricter." I'm a lump of shit. It'll be okay for everyone though. I will try to make it good for everyone here.

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wrote

Interjecting here briefly to say, first thank you for the support, and secondly, unless it pleases you partner, I don't appreciate such slander against someone I appreciate so much. I kindly ask you talk better about yourself, cuz you've come a long way and I'd like you to be as proud of that as I and others are.

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That makes me happy. I will try not to self-deprecate so much.

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agreed. learn to value yourself and others. we are all special beings deserving of love. don't forget that

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Much appreciated partner. You be sure now to talk more positively about yourself, ya hear?

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Will do! I am the most stubborn duelist in plat!!!

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Now you best, for fear I'll come after a for this negativity. And I tell ya what, this world gots too much pain in it to be so self critical. Construction is one thing. But bringing one self down for it's own sake? Now I don't appreciate that.

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wrote

Conflating a state with it's people is peak nationalist and fashy shit. Not to mention justifying a majority of support as being just reason to advocate for discrimination, if not ethnic and culturall cleansing is your brain on democracy.

There's Palestinian Jews who are being genocided as we speak. Should we not care about their murders because they're Jewish and the majority of their people, my people, support Israel?

If you're an anarchist, and I reckon you are, then it should surely follow that a people, no matter how wrapped up in statecraft, are not the same as it's state.

Your racism cannot be conditional. I share no shalom with Zionists nor antisemites.

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wrote

This is so bizarre. You are not talking with me. You're having a separate conversation with someone else. I cannot respond to what you are saying because your interpretation of my words is so out of sync.

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wrote (edited )

I cannot believe that modern western society, which prides itself on being anti-genocide

lmao. just because the “West” fought the nazis years ago doesnt make them antigenocide. Palestine isnt even the only genocide the West is complicit in right now.

If the Jews want to support Israel, they can handle antisemitism on their own

conflating Jews and Israel is pretty typical Zionist rhetoric. a lot of Jews do support Israel, but that doesnt make them the Jews. There is also the idea of how antisemitism can also harm pro-Palestinian movements which you seem to not care about either. after all, you “dont care about antisemitism”.

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wrote

Ah thank you, you’re helping me understand the reaction.

Of course I don’t literally think all Jews support it. But I’m happy to treat groups as aggregates where reasonable. It seems to me most people support Israel and have for a long time. So even if a minority dissents, it’s the majority that I care about. And it seems to me the large majority.

And yeah I’m aware the west has perpetuated lots of genocide. The upbringing I’ve had has been all about “the west is a force of good in the world, the west protects people, the west never does anything wrong” which as an adult I’ve realised is not true. So I’ve been appalled to learn that, and to see contrary actions play out in real time. Most of my country supports Israel and aggressively shuts down any pro Palestinian talk. it’s been a very depressing year

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wrote

If the Jews want to support Israel, they can handle antisemitism on their own.

idk if this is racist or bigoted or what not but it's deeply in conflict with anarchism lol. treating collectives like they have monolithic agency.

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wrote (edited )

I’m happy to treat groups as aggregates where reasonable. I’m aware there can be a plurality of voices within a group. I can hold both views simultaneously.

And yes, the Jewish communities of the world hold a lot of power and influence with regard to supporting Israel. I condemn their contributions and sanitising of Israel’s genocide.

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wrote

Well, you need to expand your thinking. Humans are group animals like many other species. We're as capable of groupthink as we are of individualism. If you don't think groups can act with collective agency the world won't make much sense to you. The sum of everyone's collective actions averages out in certain ways.

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wrote

When you hold individuals responsible for the actions of the group, I feel like your "groupthink" becomes indistinguishable from bigotry...

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OP wrote

Look. If you genuinely feel like raddle isn't remarkably anti-zionist then I suggest you go scroll through some of the relevant forums. and (fucking shame that they left) have put in an incredible amount of work finding and posting articles as well as opposing Zionism on the site. And maybe you didn't notice but there have been multiple blowouts over the past half year or so and two well know users who'd been here for years and years are no longer around because they ultimately couldn't keep a lid on their Zionism.

What you're doing is giving yourself an excuse not to engage with something that's messy and often difficult: 'when is anti-zionism actually anti-semitism?'. Being in a position to do that and flagrantly stating that you don't give a shit, is in fact anti-semitic. Dismissing people as "snarky" and "toxic", or going through their post history to downvote everything when they call you out, will only succeed in making them even more negatively predisposed towards you and your presence.

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wrote

Yeah idk, I mean 100% fuck the idea that Jews and zionists are the same thing, but isn't deleting your harmful posts a good thing?

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wrote

Personally I only delete harmful posts when nobody called me out on my bullshit in the comments, but if they did I leave it because it's more informative that way I think.

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I would like to point out it’s in the terms of service that we may delete our content at any time. I’m surprised the lot of you have got so touchy about me using that right. Apparently rights only exist when they’re convenient.

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wrote

I don't think they were harmful, but I thought the way you all were responding was incredibly harmful. Completely blowing what I said out of proportion.

It's my general coping strategy on reddit that if something I say inadvertently triggers a lot of hate, I delete it. Ends the chaos and people move on to the next thing.

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OP wrote

At this point I think this comment section should make it pretty clear that they aren't deleting their posts because they acknowledge the harmfulness. They just want the problem to go away.

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wrote

oh no, a bigot feels bullied? good.

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wrote

no. a fellow progressive feels dogpiled on because i said something mildly controversial and everyone lost their shit.

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wrote

youre being dogpiled for being a racist pos. as it should be.

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wrote

ah yes. Saying I'm tired of Israel's genocide makes me racist.

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wrote

Saying I'm tired of Israel's genocide makes me racist.

Israel has done terrible crimes, and I’m in no mood to be sympathetic towards antisemitism. If the Jews want to support Israel, they can handle antisemitism on their own. My sympathies have expired. I don’t think this is an unreasonable stance to take.

I think there's a slight discrepancy here.

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wrote

If you feel like you’re being dogpiled then stop arguing with internet weirdos and take a step back. Log out of Raddle, close the tab/s, and avoid checking notifications. No matter what. Spend a day or two(maybe more) away from here and you’ll feel much better, promise. That rest period will give you time to re-examine stuff with a clearer head. Some of the stuff you said was fucked up. But I’d rather see you own it and grow than get perma-banned.

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wrote (edited )

I think tings are more complicated here than certain people make them out to be.

I think doesn't need to speak about Jewish people as a monolith who all support the Zionist project. I think it's also worth pointing out that even if every Jewish person was down for it, they'd probably be still a minority in terms of everyone who is (given the broad support we see across various countries and social groups for the entity, as well as the beginnings of Zionism as a Christian ideology well before any Jewish people got into it). Zionism has been controversial amongst Jewish people in general since the advent of the Jewish Zionist movement.

It's probably also worth mentioning the anti semitic treatment of Jewish Anti Zionists which we see in Germany and other lands, where state authorities push one view or understanding of Jewish history to justify zionism while trying to delegitimise and silence Jewish antizionists.

So I think the person could probably sharpen their analysis. The problem of Zionism is that it's colonial, and this way of thinking is far from unique to Jewish People or even the Global North.

For , I don't know if I'd feel comfortable saying raddle is remarkably antizionist on the basis of 2 people putting a lot of effort in on the /f/Palestine_and_israel forum and arguing with various Zionists here. Especially when you consider one of us isn't here at the moment. Not that only me and yaspora were doing that but. And I mean you can check the top posts in the forum and look at the comments in some of those posts to get an idea.

I was astounded at the difference in reactions all my posts in that forum got before October 7 (mostly none outside of some votes), to the amount of condemnation, racism and islamophobia Palestinians and their resistance was getting here when the attacks happened.

I think people here (not only here) are for more sensitive to anti semitism than islamophobia and I'd say that the admins here were much less proactive in dealing with Zionism and islamophobia here than they have been wrt other issues.

I'm also not sure it's entirely fair to act like Palestinians or Muslims are on the same level in the racial hierarchy as Jewish people. Palestinians get worse repression here than the Jewish anti Zionists. And it's worth pointing out that Jewish people have been being assimilated into whiteness over the last 80 years or so(which isn't to say that antisemitism doesn't exist and this could be considered one aspect of it), and the establishment of the zionist entity is one aspect of that.

And I do have the impression that in some circles Jewish anti Zionists are given more space and leeway then Palestinians are. I mean it's been controversial that I post basically any statements from the Palestinian and regional resistance groups that I find, in a way that statements from other anti Zionists or even liberal Zionists weren't. (One such statement was even pinned by a moderator of /f/antisemitism). Not to mention the racist shit that ruminator faced as a Muslim here for the short period that they were moderating there.

I even remember Ziq talking about paranoia wrt to Zionism although I'd probably say there was as much paranoia wrt to antisemitism at that time if not more. As what they called paranoia about Zionism was more like a reasonable diagnosis aha.

So while I and a couple people have been trying to show like a proper analysis of the situation (even since before October 7), I do have the impression that it has to a certain extent fallen on deaf ears.

That's my opinion maybe it's helpful and the stuff I'm talking about is by no means unique to here.

I guess also it would be kind of interesting to see some kind of admission from someone in quote unquote Australia, seeing as their position is not very different from an 'israeli' in historic Palestine. what's happening abroad has lessons for you that could be applied at home too.

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wrote

this is a really good analysis

tho would like to point out Jews dont all occupy the same place in racial hierarchies. Ethiopian Jews may have a different experience of racism and antisemitism than Ashkenazi Jews for instance

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wrote (edited )

Thanks and yes I agree with what you are saying. Those racial divisions also cut through the group of Jewish as people as a whole. Just wanted to point out how there have been some shifts over the last times as well. And I mean furthermore if it wasn't clear already acceptance of Zionism by Jewish people is one mark of assimilation into whiteness as well in my understanding.

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wrote

And I mean furthermore if it wasn't clear already acceptance of Zionism by Jewish people is one mark of assimilation into whiteness as well in my understanding.

I havent heard of that before but that makes sense. reminds me of the letter from Herzl to Cecil Rhodes. sorta seems like this integration into whiteness was the idea from the beginning?

“You are being invited to help make history,” he wrote, “It doesn’t involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor ; not Englishmen, but Jews . How, then, do I happen to turn to you since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial.”

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wrote

Pooo I can try find to this kind of argumentation. I think at least both me and yaspora posted stuff making this argument. Probably in /f/Judaism, /f/antisemitism, /f/Race, or /f/palestine_and_israel. I think philosemitism is be a keyword to search for on that topic.

I think whiteness is a construction which is based in colonialism so in that sense yes definitely. But I think this process of accepting Jews as white really gained steam in the US as a result of Jewish immigration there, as well as the US taking over as the main sponsor of the zionist project from the UK.

One of the arguments of guys like Herzl was that Zionism is necessary as Jews could never hope to be accepted in European society. So it's a bit more complicated than just saying the founders of Jewish Zionism wanted to be accepted as white in their home countries.

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wrote (edited )

One of the arguments of guys like Herzl was that Zionism is necessary as Jews could never hope to be accepted in European society. So it's a bit more complicated than just saying the founders of Jewish Zionism wanted to be accepted as white in their home countries.

hmm yea I probably overlooked that - maybe closer to say “building partnerships through colonialism” which ended up as a form of integration.

will have a look through some stuffs on philosemitism. think Ive read most of them already but perhaps missed it or someth

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wrote

Appreciate the half decent attempt at harmonising and reconciling with what I've said. Ngl not a fan of your insinuation of my colonial status, especially assuming I haven't already done tons of work around it. I've done more than any person I know. I honestly feel insulted you would even think I hadn't already done everything I could. I think that's the problem. You guys really have no idea who I am. You're projecting all your worst assumptions onto me which aren't even true. Maybe have a step back and consider you are dealing with a person who has done a hell of a lot of work in this space and doesn't say the things I say lightly.

I'm about done with this conversation. We are going nowhere and I don't see this being reconciled any time soon. I don't feel the rest of you have anything left to add that would be beneficial to me. Please keep your remaining opinions to yourself.

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wrote (edited )

Please keep your remaining opinions to yourself.

No.

You can of course ask for this, but no one here is under any obligation to comply. You opened up this discussion to the entire site when you brought the issue here to meta - you don’t get to declare that you have the last word. Given that you don’t seem likely to change your opinion re antisemitism, if you want the conversation to stop I would suggest you stop replying.

Jumping to another comment (but not wanting to double post): For what it’s worth, your “right” to delete stuff from Raddle-the-website does not mean that others don’t have a “right” to comment on your deletion. You yourself made the point several times that we don’t really know each other, just the words we type out. What you seem to have missed there is yes, all we have are your words, so that is what people will use to make opinions and judgements about you. And (like a lot of us) you’ve said a few things that people here are going to take offense to. You can change your mind, double down, or just keep a lid on those opinions while you are here, but all of those choices come with consequences. Your choice. 🤷‍♀️

💜💕💜

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wrote (edited )

Sure whatever. Rosy hearts don't make the bitter "medicine" any sweeter. People can complain all they want but they were acting entitled about it.

I would like to point out I didn't think I'd be involving the whole site when I did that.

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wrote

Rosy hearts don't make the bitter "medicine" any sweater.

They weren’t meant to; the hearts are basically my sig - and there as much for myself when scanning through comments as for anyone else.

That said, if anyone wants to know how I personally feel about all this…

I really liked one of the recently banned peeps. They were literally an inspiration for me at points, and I loved seeing their art work. But they simply would not back down from a particularly antisemitic take. And as much as I was sad to see them go, the community just could not take being a platform for that sort of position. So they were banned. In the end they didn’t leave admin much choice.

I enjoy reading your comments. Generally happy to have you around. But you simply won’t back down from your stance regarding antisemitism…

I see the pattern. I hope for a different outcome. But this right here is the limit of my ability to influence that outcome, and I know this. As much as I hope otherwise, right now I’m sort of expecting to see your name on Crown’s next “I miss everyone!” posts. But at this point it’s out of my hands.

💜💕💜

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wrote (edited )

Please keep your remaining opinions to yourself.

No aha

especially assuming I haven't already done tons of work around it.

TBF in my experience dealing with people with from various settler states as well as white people in general its a pretty safe assumption.

Also me not remembering you talking about the situation in Australia like ever is not me assuming anything.

I think it's fair enough to point it out. It's easy to see a villain when it's external to you. Why is it unfair to question if you have a similar or analysis or criticism of your state and people?

I don't remember you really doing 'a lot of work in this space' either, generally or regarding Zionism in particular.

Also just noticing that you have as far as I remember said you live in a settler state is pretty fair. What's the issue with referring to someones positionality and the possible contradictions that come with that? And maybe you have done work on that. Doesn't change that we haven't seen it here?

A lot of the people here are settlers. It's not malicious to point it out and wonder what at level cognitive dissonance is operating.

If it makes you feel better you aren't the only person who I've taken pot shots at in my message aha. It was definitely not only for you.

I didn't even project assumptions to you. You've claimed to live in Australia, you've painted Jewish people as a monolith a couple times to their detriment and then called it opposition to genocide after?

Anyway if you knew about resources relating to the situation of indigenous people there or the resistance to colonialism there I for one would be super interested. Especially if you've done lots of work of it. You must have come across stuff of interest re the situation in 'your country'

Tbh what I wrote is very fair to you and goes deeper on the reasonable things you did say, while pointing out issues with the worrying parts. And I did the same for a couple other people at the same time.

I mean I might even go further and argue that the issues you had with people characterising the situation in Palestine as a war as kind of illustrating a colonial mindset. While no doubt the Zionist project is a genocidal or eliminatory one, I think refusing to characterise it as a war is also denying the agency of Palestinians themselves who have been resisting the colonization of Palestine since before the settler state was founded in various ways up to and including fighting a couple of wars over the last decades.

Yea so anyway, no one has to like it, I imagine you aren't the only one wouldn't be happy with everything I said there. Am calling it the way I see it. Feel free to feel insulted but I wasn't at all mean w what I said.

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wrote

It's barely a war at this point. It's a demolition of Gaza. You guys are painfully pedantic. I don't even know what you're trying to argue.

I'll list some resources for you tomorrow.

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wrote

Do you what you want. Well done ignoring the rest of my point and questions..

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