It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…
1. Coworker’s retirement email took credit for our full product line
I received an email from a coworker who is retiring next month. The worker, let’s call him Carl, announced his upcoming retirement and then bragged for a long paragraph about his integral design accomplishments for an important product line. The email includes a smiling photo of Carl standing next to nine products, as though he was the program manager who was responsible for the team of engineers who developed the products for the world to use!
Carl is a draftsman, who followed directives from engineers. The program manager and the engineering team worked long and hard on each product design before meeting with drafts people for drafting implementation (blueprints, CAD, etc.). During weekly reviews, and sometimes more often, Carl reported to an assigned engineer and the two of them worked out any possible glitches or changes for design alterations that we other engineers made.
I believe in team work. Every job is important because every job has different functions when developing and manufacturing products. Working together, we all provided necessary input for each product. I can’t understand how or why Carl believes the product line is his. Worse, I can’t understand why he sent this self-applauding company-wide.
My engineering colleagues are privately laughing at Carl’s email, mostly because they never heard or saw such brazen nonsense. I have to say that it’s the oddest retirement email I ever got. Is sending pictures of your so-called accomplishments (or of your real accomplishments) a new thing? I find it icky, not to mention a morale buster for everyone else on the product team. How should we react publicly to Carl’s news? We aren’t motivated to give him a party because we aren’t going to enable his delusion. We don’t want to mock him, either, because, well, that’s not nice.
Eh, I think you and your coworkers are being a little mean-spirited about it! It doesn’t sound like Carl is trying to take credit for being the product manager; it sounds like he’s saying he’s proud of the projects he’s worked on, and here they are. You want employees to feel ownership and pride in the work they do, whether they’re the ones calling the shots for it or not. Was it a bit much in this context? Maybe! But I don’t think it warrants denying the guy a retirement party.
If I’m wrong and he explicitly took credit for things he didn’t do, that’s different. In that case, laugh away, or roll your eyes, or so forth. Although even then, I don’t think it rises to the level of “no retirement party for you” (unless Carl has generally been a jerk to work with; if he has, feel free not to put any special effort toward celebrating him).
2. Can I take my shoes off behind the counter?
I work at a gas station (overnight shifts 6pm – 6am). During my shift I’m usually behind the counter. During slow nights, I’m sitting at the work computer on my phone between customers. It’s a casual setting and the manager is pretty chill, but I’m curious … being behind the counter so often, can I take off my shoes for a bit during my shift? I usually put them on if I’m going anywhere other than behind the counter, but would it be wrong to let the dogs breathe for a few minutes or till a customer arrives?
The more practical question is whether anyone would know. If no one but you will know, that’s between you and your feet. Just make sure there’s nothing you could step on, for safety/comfort reasons.
But if anyone might see, keep your shoes on; a barefoot attendant isn’t usually the look businesses are going for. (For that reason, “usually” putting your shoes on if you come out from behind the counter really should be “always.”)
3. My coworker won’t help in our shared job
I work in security in a large hospital (we print the ID badges for numerous contractors to have access throughout the hospital), and I work in an open office environment. I’ve worked there almost two years now, and really like my job.
People approach our long desk where my coworkers and I sit, facing the public. There are three of us who do the same job, and we are all cross-trained to do everything that’s needed to get these people badged. That being said, two of us carry the brunt of the work. The third person, Martha, has a serious problem with playing on her cell phone ALL THE TIME. When people approach the desk, they approach Martha’s seat first. She doesn’t acknowledge their presence most of the time, because she is so engrossed in her cell phone, leading to me or the other coworker greeting and helping the person almost every time. The phone rings, and she can’t/won’t answer it, because she is either on her cell phone or talking to her daughter or husband on her business phone.
She always asks why I haven’t asked her to help with anything instead of doing it myself. I don’t feel like it’s my job to delegate work; we are equals in position and she knows what needs to be done. I don’t like confrontation, so I don’t say anything most of the time, leading to resentment because I am literally doing everything. I have said things in the past, yet here we are again. I don’t feel like it’s my place to keep saying things. My boss has a lot of health problems so is hardly ever present to be able to address the issue. I don’t know what to do, as I am running extremely short on patience with this problem. I don’t want to scream and make a scene, but I am done playing these games with her. I need help!
Martha sucks here, but you’re also writing off the only things that will help. Talk to her! I know you said you’ve tried that in the past, but I’m curious how direct you’ve been. Ideally, the next time it’s happening, you’d say, “Could you please not be on your phone when customers come up? When you are, Jane and I end up doing more than our share of the work, because you’re not acknowledging customers when they approach.” You’ll probably need to say this more than once, but that’s not confrontational or out of line; it’s a normal conversation to have about how workload is distributed. It’s not about assigning work to her; it’s saying, “I am doing more than my fair share and I need your help.”
And if you’re at the point of worrying you’re going to scream at her, it’s far kinder to have a calm conversation with her first.
Assuming this doesn’t solve it, though, then you do need to talk to your boss. You say she’s not there much, but the next time she is there, ask to meet in private, explain the problem, and say you’ve tried speaking to Martha about it directly but it’s continuing to happen. (That’s the other advantage of talking to Martha directly first: when you escalate it to your boss, you want to be able to say you’ve tried that.)
4. How to ask a coworker to stop watching me work
The least favorite part of my job is being shadowed. I absolutely hate having people following me around staring at me, and this summer it has been constant, and with multiple people. At one point I had so many people silently watching me working, I came closer than I ever have to walking out on my job. It’s almost over, thank god, interns and assistants have been gotten rid of and/or are going back to school.
However, we have a new receptionist who likes to come back and watch the “fun” procedures, standing around and getting in my way while I’m trying to work. It’s not “fun” for me, it’s my job, and I’m trying to do 100 things at the same time. I’ll admit I don’t particularly like this person and I’m a bit … on edge, due to the near constant aggravation of the last couple of months. I don’t want to be an ogre about it, but her job is at her desk doing her job, not watching me do mine.
Our manager has been missing in action at work lately due to personal stuff, so there’s no use trying to talk to her. Is there a way to nicely ask this person to go do her job and let me do mine? The best I can come up with is some version of, “Hey, I really don’t like being watched while I work, would you mind?” but I’m afraid it will come out through clenched teeth.
That’s actually fine to say, as long as you say it in a reasonably warm tone and not through clenched teeth. Alternately: “I find it distracting to be watched while I work and I am pretty burnt out on being shadowed the last couple months.” Tone is the big thing here — make sure it’s conveying “I like you, just not this specific activity.”
She may very well think you don’t mind being watched, since she’s seen so many other people shadowing you. Let her know you prefer she not.
But also: why have so many people been shadowing you? Is it truly necessary for their training, or is it more optional? Given that you’ve almost been at the point of walking out over it, is there any room to cut back on how much of it falls to you? If I were your manager, I’d want to know if something was happening that had you this on edge.
5. My employee passed their PIP — now what?
I have had an employee, Alex, on a PIP and for once it has done exactly what I hoped: improved performance! I’ve never had that happen before (I’ve done two, and one employee quit and I fired the other). I’m delighted that Alex accomplished what we set out in the PIP; maybe it was the wake-up call they needed.
So, what comes next, when a PIP works? How do you ease back on the PIP-related pressure of Succeed NOW, while also not risking a PIP-slack-PIP cycle? I feel like if we get to the final action date and I tell Alex, “Hey, you’ve done great doing what I asked; if you fail to keep doing that, I’m just going to fire you instead of going through this whole PIP again,” it would be the same as having a perpetual PIP. It doesn’t give Alex a chance to keep doing the job correctly now that they’ve really learned how; it’s just a sword hanging over their head all the time and that feels like a terrible way to work.
What is an effective strategy for after the PIP, when it’s not letting them go?
Ideally when you’re first writing the PIP, you include language like, “If you fulfill the requirements laid out here, you will no longer be on a formal improvement plan but will need to maintain that level of performance over time.” Or, “I need you to demonstrate this improvement in the next X weeks, and then sustain it going forward.”
If you didn’t do that, or in addition to it now, when you’re having the “you passed the PIP!” conversation, you can say, “You’ve done a great job doing XYZ. We do need to see this level of performance sustained over the long-run, and if the problems recur, we would not go through this process all over again. But based on how well you’ve done the last X weeks, I’m confident that you can do that.”
A reminder: you cannot name-call letter-writers or other commenters here, no matter how much you disagree with them. If I see you do that, your comment will be removed and you risk being banned.
1. That seems like a mean place to work.
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Seriously. Carl is about to retire anyway, and he won’t be anyone’s problem once he’s gone. Let him work out his last few weeks happily.
Right? No one posing in front of their company’s work product, proud to have been a part of it, is assumed to be saying “See that Space Shuttle? I built it all by myself.” Unless they work for this company.
I kinda want to hug Carl right now. Retirement is a huge transition and taking a moment to be proud of your work is absolutely fine. I hope he’s home right now and enjoying the good life.
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Yeah, good for Carl!
Yes, it seems like Carl is saying, “Look what I helped make; I’ll always be proud of that,” not, “I made this myself.” Seems like that’s exactly the sort of pride anyone would want a team member to have, but LW#1, you give the impression that only engineers can claim ownership of your firm’s work. Which so denigrates the contributions of every non-engineer on your team that I wonder why they stay.
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I had to go back and re-read the first paragraphs of the OP because I thought I misunderstood! I think the LW isn’t giving Carl the benefit of the doubt. If you’ve worked somewhere a long time with success on a team or otherwise, you should be proud of your work!
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Yeah unless the “paragraph” that OP mentioned said something a lot more specifically credit-taking, they seem to be reading A LOT into one photograph.
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Worse, it seems like they’re also reading into the fact that he posted a picture of himself with the products. He says:
*The email includes a smiling photo of Carl standing next to nine products, as though he was the program manager who was responsible for the team of engineers who developed the products for the world to use!*
OP, you say you think everyone job so important, but only program managers should be able to pose next to the products they work on, apparently? Unless you’re leaving out a lot that Carl actually said (not pictures he posted), you and your coworkers should really examine your attitudes. I can’t imagine feeling the need to write to an advice column because someone posed in front of a product they worked on.
Yeah. I pictured a line of blenders, but it could be a line of jet planes. I think everyone knows your modern product isn’t the outcome of just one person.
Sorry, OP1, but your office sounds mean-spirited. And deciding not to give someone a retirement party because their retirement email wasn’t sufficiently congratulatory to the rest of you is a weird look.
Engineers be engineering (/s)
And I’m getting a sense of, Carl was a lowly draftsman. It’s ugly
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That’s exactly what I noticed too—a sense that it was somehow presumptuous for a mere draftsman to take pride in their work. Where I work, the CEO is over the moon when he sees people visibly invest pride in the products they work on. It’s a good thing!
LW, I hope you take some time to ask yourself *why* you and your colleagues are upset about this, especially over someone you won’t ever have to think about again very soon.
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+1
I want to echo this, because I really think a normal response to this slightly unusual (in this office) retirement email would be “Huh” followed by going on with your day and doing whatever is usual for the person’s retirement. The mocking, prolonged mocking, and plans to refuse to honor their retirement are a very strange escalated reaction to a pretty mundane prompt.
You say you (plural) don’t want to mock him because that’s not nice. But you plural are already mocking him.
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I truly cannot wrap my head around the LWs reaction to this. Unless Carl explicitly said “I was singlehandedly responsible for all of these products,” the best-faith interpretation was “I contributed to these, and as I retire, I am looking back and am proud of what I was able to contribute to here!”
I work in a pretty hierarchical workplace – there’s a clear line between leadership and support staff based on education and scope of role. This hierarchy is pretty stark, and occasionally feels icky. Still, I cannot fathom anyone having this kind of reaction to someone expressing pride on how they contributed to our mission and products (and our support staff are so integral to anything actually getting done here; the nuts-and-bolts work is truly crucial).
Agreed. The way this is written seems like a company culture issue. LW, does your workplace discourage all employees from taking pride in their projects or is it okay for people in higher level roles but not lower levels? Either way, this sounds like one of those workplaces that’s warping your norms, at least on this specific thing.
I definitely also sensed some snobbery, so here’s some unsolicited advice for OP and their engineer colleagues:
Snobbery, besides being a bad look, will not serve you well in work, or life.
I’ve seen engineers and the like thinking they know better, and that the other functions are no better than human tools executing their ideas. This regularly goes spectacularly wrong. You have to fully believe the draftsmen and the people in production, and everyone along the chain, own the product’s success as much as you do, because they do. And I say this as someone who’s always been in the engineer-type “theoretical thinker” role.
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+1
+1
Holder of a Mechanical Engineering degree here, in the intro class to our major one of the first things they did was take us to the machine shop and have the chief machinist give us a tour and talk. While we got do some cool stuff with the machines over the semester, the core point of the class was conveyed by the chief machinist on the first day: “You may be able to draw it in CAD or on paper, but that doesn’t mean it can be machined, or machined easily. You have to work with your draftsmen and machinists to create something that works AND can be produced.” If a career draftsman provided feedback to engineers to improve a product line or part so it could be more efficiently or economically machined, then, yes, they were a key contributor to that product.
Yeah, this was the feeling I got too. Carl isn’t important enough to be allowed to take pride in these products and his contribution to them, as he was “only” the draughtsman.
Gross.
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Exactly. He doesn’t have whatever certification status these guys use as a plinth to stand on top of and look down on everyone else–what could be more contemptible than claiming pride in a contribution to the overall deliverable? How dare Carl, a mere draftsman?
OP, you and your co-workers need to reexamine a few things.
Absolutely. And “is this the new thing?” Ugh.
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“Is this the new thing?” always seems to crop up when an LW doesn’t want advice, just to vent, and then realize at the end of the letter they need to actually ask a question.
Hi name twin, I think I need to change my name to lettuce hater or something.
Yeah, how does “the two of them worked out any possible glitches or changes for design alterations” not qualify as “integral design accomplishments”?
And I’m getting a sense of, Carl was a lowly draftsman. It’s ugly
SO ugly and mean. I’m an engineer, I have worked with draftspeople and designers my entire career, and we COULD NOT do it without them. They are integral to the process, they often bring experience that the engineers don’t have yet, they see problems before we do — ugly is the perfect word for this kind of view of how the OP sees Carl’s work. It is absolutely his work just as much as it is yours. Ugh, so terrible. What a terrible group of arrogant snobs you work with. Giving engineers a bad name.
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THIS. As a manager my butt has been saved more than once by people who are “below me” on the org chart but well above me in their detailed knowledge of the nuts and bolts of our profession. I am glad I don’t work for you or in your company.
So much this! We engineers are taught to use drafting software so I think it feels like something we can do ourselves if we wanted to. But we don’t want to! We have a million other things to do then worry about the spec of every bolt and how it is going to fit in. Those draftsman see the small and big picture and often save hundred of thousands of dollars in manufacturing mistakes engineers wouldn’t think about.
What struck me as kind of funny is that OP mentioned it seeming like Carl was claiming credit “as though he was the program manager.” Meanwhile, I wonder how many draftsmen and other technical people out there roll their eyes at all the program managers who claim credit for full project lines “as though they were actually doing any of the real work!”
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I thought this as well!
Yeah why would it be any better for a program manager to claim full credit. My current title actually IS a program manager title, though nothing like the line of work in the letter, and I don’t see why I’m more important to my programs than everyone else working on them?
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Honestly, it would strike me as more likely to be problematic if he were the program manager. Somebody failing to acknowledge those who worked under them when talking about projects they led is a bit distasteful/dismissive of those beneath them, I guess because in those cases, they are overlooking people whose work is already less visible than theirs and because they are in a position where their version of events is often prioritised, but it sounds like Carl is either the equal or on a lower rung of the hierarchy than the others who worked on these products, so it’s far less likely he is going to get all the credit here.
The fact that the letter writer started with “everyone works as a team” then launched into this makes it especially sour. It ends up reading like — “How DARE you believe teamwork means you get any credit for what the engineers did all by their lonesome?”
Sort of reminiscent of the two definitions of respect and how “If you treat me with respect, I’ll treat you with respect” is not in fact an invitation to equitable treatment.
Especially since the knee jerk reaction is to punish Carl in a really visible way. If they’re thinking of not throwing a retirement party, that to me says that retirement parties are a thing at OP’s job. You’re not sending a message just to Carl, you’re sending a message to everyone there.
Unless Carl is saying he did every single thing from A to Z, he is allowed to be proud of the work he did and the projects he was involved with on his tenure. OP, I think you and your team need to take a step back and think about why you’re reacting so strongly – and very much like a clique – to this.
Which is funny, because, no offense fellow engineers, a lot of us cannot draw exact specifications even in CAD programs. We often get our units mixed up as well so he is doing valuable work making sure the part gets manufactured properly.
He’s proud of his contributions to the products, and he should be! Perhaps he may come across as taking extra credit (and maybe not!) but he’s not retiring as an engineer, so I don’t see why it matters. He deserves a party
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Clarifying my own post –
“I don’t see why it matters” = Other employees will already know that he’s a contributing member to a larger team. It’s fine – he’s happy with his achievements in helping make those products possible.
Hope he has a great retirement!
Yeh, and elitist and hierarchical. My husband is a engineering technician at a world-famous physics lab. The physicists decide/design what they need the experiments to capture, the engineers conceptualise the machines needed, the draftspeople make the plans, my husband makes the experiments on his machine. They are ALL involved, and it’s happened a couple times that the engineers – interestingly, never the physicists – forget about the draftspeople and technicians who actually BUILD THE THING when celebrating the inauguration of a new experiment, or its first results. It’s usually completely thoughtless, which is annoying enough, but this situation is almost worse because there is absolute intent behind the mean-spiritedness and elitist gatekeeping.
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As a physicist, I have a theory why we don’t fall into that trap so much: we know we’d be absolutely hopeless if we tried to build the thing, so there’s some humility that comes from that.
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As an industrial chemist, I agree. I can make a few pounds of a blend in the lab, but the production workers may make hundreds of pounds in a batch. I listen to them and try to make them understand how I made it.
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Also an industrial chemist; I’m in pharma. I would say this kind of retirement email is fairly normal; it’s like “hey do you remember all the good times we had working on WonderDrug3000?!”, not “I was single-handedly responsible for WonderDrug 3000”.
Then again I do wonder whether maybe there was something particularly show-offy in OP’s message that they just didn’t show us.
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If it had been there the OP would have happily shared. Since it wasn’t, we got everyone’s feelz instead.
A physicist with a theory, what will they think of next
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It’s our raison d’être, what can I say…
+1 to the user name, and I think you might be onto something with the vibe “Thank heaven for Beatrice, who can physically craft exactly the part I need to run this experiment. We need to make sure she feels appreciated.”
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Without Beatrice, the experiment would run entirely on duct tape, cable ties, and toothpicks, and those only go so far.
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EXACTLY! Sure, you can try making a hadron collider with string and empty bottles (or even with the right parts but made with a fraction of an mm less precision…) but I am not sure how much colliding would actually take place…
Just so. I’m a horticulturist, and I have nothing but respect for the botanists in the lab doing the research – I’ve seen what they do, and I could never (it seems to be mostly cleaning?)
At the end of the day though it’s usually the horticulturists who actually get into the dirt and grow the plants, and it’s a partnership in that sense; neither of us wants to do the others’ job and so we appreciate them for doing it for us.
Physicists absolutely fall into that trap.
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Probably why they said “as much”.
Oh, absolutely! Most of us just get cured if it by reality more quickly. Of course, some are incurable.
Some do, but the more common trap with physicists is “I’m very smart, therefore my philosophical conclusions [discipline I’ve no academic experience in] are just as air-tight as my scientific ones [subject where I have a PhD]” (I used to study physics & philosophy)
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I know these physicists, too. A Ph.D. in physics plus a Google search made some of them confident that they know my job better than I do (after a different degree and ~20 years)…
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This is too accurate for comfort, lol. There’s definitely some unearned confidence that we could learn anything we set our minds to.
Similarly, I once bought a car from a surgeon who liked to DIY repairs, and man, that was a mess.
I would say that being a physicist actively DIS-qualifies you to make statements regarding other academic disciplines you’re not in, sourced mostly from the number of physicists that either go full Neil DeGrasse Tyson or who simply turn up to discussions of the humanities or bioscience wondering why we haven’t come up with the genius idea of doing everything to mathematical precision without accounting for the fact that living things are messy.
As someone who is good friends with a lot of engineers, I do notice that some (not all!) of them fall into thinking that because they have both theoretical/academic and practical/physical knowledge and skills that they’re the single most important part of whatever they’re doing. People with more specialization can be more aware of what they are NOT skilled at.
Also (this appears to have triggered me somewhat!) – it’s happened a COUPLE of times that the engineers forget the technicians. Out of hundreds of times. Because generally everyone knows that everyone involved in the making of an experiment played a crucial role. I don’t know what industry OP1 is in but if Nobel prizewinning physicists can show real appreciation for the people and the expertise that allows their experiments to come to life, I feel that OP1 is taking on an unwarranted (and slightly laughable) superiority that really just serves to illustrate their complete ignorance in how things get done.
And the office staff & custodians keep the place comfortably operating so the other specialists can do their parts well.
If it’s important enough to pay someone for, it’s important work.
The language used in the email would probably make a big difference as to how it lands, but the headline of ‘Carl the draftsman is proud of his work and saying so at retirement’ isn’t the shocker OP thinks it is. I was taken aback by the word “bragging” and wondered what sort of excessively modest culture OP is in where people can’t say they were part of something and that it went well, and I’m English! Then the exact proportion of his contribution is raked over; does Carl need to singlehandedly bag a Nobel prize before he can be proud of his work? Very odd, to the point of fascinating.
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Not to mention, there is growing criticism of Nobel Prizes because they overly focus on individual achievements and hide the teams behind them. I’m glad Carl knows his value and how much his work has accomplished.
For all we know the email really was over the top, but I feel that even if Carl literally said “here’s all the things I built while I was here!” that’s… fine? Not a huge issue, anyway. It’s an internal email, he knows the people it goes to know he didn’t literally make those things on his own or with minimal outside input.
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Exactly. By all means roll your eyes, OP if it’s warranted – but then it’s time to make like Elsa and let it go.
I can be sensitive to people claiming to have done more than they did, but as Lei says, it’s an internal email and guy is retiring. Let him be proud of all the things he did.
Honestly, even if the email was the most over-the-top thing imaginable, like he’s claiming his efforts saved the company’s entire existence or something…who cares? Dude is retiring in a month! After four weeks from now, you’ll never see him again. A couple weeks beyond that, you’ll mostly forget he ever existed.
Take five seconds to roll your eyes and chuckle at the email, then mentally move right along.
I like your comment.
It’s really hard to say without seeing the language in the email! I can imagine it rubbing the wrong way if Carl’s email was all “I, I, I,” as in “Through my hardworking and ingenuity, I created all these amazing products!”
I don’t think the LW would be writing in if Carl had said, “I’m grateful to be part of the team that created these amazing products,” alongside a photo of Carl with said products.
As an (female) engineer, male engineers are… well weird in how they delegate out credit, and I am in the field with the highest rate of female engineers at a whooping 25% (average is 14%). I have been scolded for saying “we did x” on several occasions because it didn’t give the appropriate credit. Mind you, it was “me” who actually did the thing with a bit of help from [Man], but [Man] wanted all the credit. I could see them thinking that a lowly draftsman doing what they told him do to deserving 0 credit in their minds. (Especially based on LW’s own logic of the situation.)
In a lot of ways, many male engineers are a lot like the stereotype you see associated with surgeons – god-complexes.
‘We’re not motivated to give him a party because we don’t want to feed his delusion’ – come on! How mean-spirited do you have to be to deny someone a retirement party? Carl has done nothing wrong and it would be extremely mean not to have a party for him. He’s retiring! He won’t be working there anymore! What’s the harm in his email? Just be kind, have a nice party, wish him well, and get on with your lives.
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Right – what would it matter even if Carl was deluded about his contribution? The man is out the door in a matter of weeks, he’ll never bother them again. What’s the point in souring the last days of his working life? Let him ride off into the sunset feeling good about things.
This question has had me wondering under what circumstances you would deny someone a retirement party. Maybe when it’s a quiet agreement that if they leave right away, you’ll call it a retirement and not a termination? If you discover something truly egregious when closing out their IT accounts?
A not insignificant number of retirement parties are “thank goodness we don’t have to deal with Bob anymore” parties! It’s how it is. They’re happy to be feted, you’re happy they’re gone, everyone gets cake.
Even if Carl had gone a bit overboard with taking credit for things that were a team effort, not giving him a retirement party seems like a huge (and unkind) overreaction! It also makes me wonder how retirement parties are planned and run at this office. Everywhere I’ve worked, they were not rewards for being “popular” or “knowing your place” (gross). They should be events planned for everyone who hits that milestone, even those who are not well liked.
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Let’s be real – even if you’re the biggest, meanest arse in the world and so was Carl, you might want to give the guy a party so everyone gets a party and to celebrate his leaving.
The paragraph about teamwork was especially something. All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
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Team work so important, but don’t you dare feel any pride in your accomplishments. It’s all the engineers and only the engineers, don’t ever forget that.
OP unless Carl has been claiming all the credit all along, this is a really out there take on a simple farewell email. Try to be a bit more charitable in your intepretation.
Yeah, it was also kind of a “We believe in team work…. Unless someone wants to be seen individually within the team for their continuous contributions to the team…” Like they believe in team work but don’t make them actually think about how the team is all working on these things together and the whole team owns them. It doesn’t sound like Carl claimed solo accomplishments as much as his part in the team’s accomplishments from what I’m reading so either we’re not getting what was bad in the email or there’s some really toxic ideas on this team.
Draft animals working together are called a team. Maybe OP intends that kind of teamwork for the rabble.
Seriously. “We believe in teamwork” – except the draftsmen, they don’t matter! Carl may not make as much as the engineers, or have as much education, but his role is every bit as important, and he has just as much right to take pride in it.
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I took that to mean that teamwork involves acknowledging others’ contributions. It would have been nice if Carl said something complimentary about his co-workers or that he would miss them, but maybe he is not the best e-mail writer.
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The retirement email is something you only draft once. I can see all sorts of versions that might strike the writer as “I added a little pep” and the recipient as “… Huh, that’s not what I expected.” But then the recipient would proceed on through their next 100 emails, not gather with the engineering team to mock the email.
Or maybe that’s not the focus of an email about his retirement and how he feels about his life’s work. LW doesn’t indicate that this is any kind of pattern at all, so it confused me why his retirement email would not be about his contributions. I did find it a little odd HE had to write it at all—why didn’t someone else write a great email about Carl’s contributions?
Eh – isn’t the general approach here to take people at their word? If the OP felt that the retirement post took credit for a leadership role of managing the entire development of the product line, then it’s reasonable to assume that the sender presented themselves that way.
In recruitment (and in my admittedly limited people management experience) people take credit for FAR more than they actually contributed a LOT of the time. It’s one of the reasons I really drill down in interviews to understand exactly what a candidate actually did.
Sometimes, I’m pleasantly surprised to find out that the candidate has UNDER reported their contribution – in which case, I advise them on how to take the credit they are due. But very often, it turns out that the person who claims credit for the entire operation was really responsible for a subsection of the initiative. Occasionally, I find out they – at best – were taking notes in the meetings in which the work was being discussed by the people who actually did it.
Sometimes, this obfuscation is deliberate – ie. the person is trying to take credit undeservedly. But often, it’s also a Dunning-Kreuger kind of thing – ie the person genuinely believes they did something.
Case in point – my direct report claimed credit for organizing a company conference that our employer held for professional development of its staff. He was convinced that he had singlehandedly organized the whole thing. What he had actually done was to book the rooms and ordered lunches. I had to find a way to get him to NOT claim credit, before he really angered the people who did the actual work of developing the theme, putting together the training, engaging the speakers, developing the schedule, and managing the attendees list, etc.
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“Sometimes, this obfuscation is deliberate – ie. the person is trying to take credit undeservedly.”
This. I once wrote for an agency where the owner claimed to have created a company logo that was world recognized. That impressed me a LOT. Then a couple of years into my contract I learned that no, he had been a newbie junior member of the graphics team tasked with finalizing the design. Big difference!
I think there’s a big difference between recruitment and a farewell e-mail though. This was sent to people who already know what part Carl played in the work, so the context is very different.
Is it possible there’s a Dunning-Kreuger here? Absolutely. But…does it really matter? If that is the case, then Carl thinks he did more than he really did, but…so what? That isn’t going to harm morale or affect anybody. This isn’t a case of him undermining others in order to get a promotion. It’s just him writing a goodbye e-mail talking about the products he worked on. Even if he does think he was more central than he really was, it doesn’t affect anybody other than him.
And while I agree that there may well be more in the e-mail that wasn’t mentioned, the LW did say that Carl sending a photo of himself with the products implies he was the program manager responsible for the team of engineers which developed them and it definitely doesn’t. Especially when sent to people who already know that is not true. Given that the LW has interpreted this differently than most people would, I think a lot of us are wondering if they have also misinterpreted some of the e-mail. They may not have, but it would be unusual to include an example that…doesn’t really support your point if there were others that far more clearly did.
And while we are meant to take people at their word, I don’t think that means we are supposed to ignore it if they say something that is inaccurate, such as that the photo means he thinks he is the program manager or that the e-mail is likely to harm morale.
I don’t think anybody is saying that nobody puffs up their work, just that there is nothing in the letter to indicate that Carl actually did – he may have, but if so, the LW chose poor examples – and that it doesn’t really matter anyway and is certainly not a valid reason to deny him a retirement party.
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+1. When I first read LW1’s entry, I did try to imagine what an email from Carl might look like that would warrant a group getting together to “privately laugh” and make them reconsider throwing him the retirement party they’d already planned to provide, knowing that there are only so many details that make sense to fit into these letters; and I considered, too, that there are countries where what might be read as “appropriate level of pride” in a place like the US could be interpreted as “overly braggadocious” — and I landed where you did, which is, so what? What else is there to practically do but roll your eyes and move on? The guy’s retiring in a month, and it’d be one thing if he said something seriously offensive or implied imminent danger, but from the letter it seems like he (taking LW at their word) overstated his role in a project, which isn’t really something worth spending your time and energy worrying about for a guy who’s already out the door. I could understand the feeling a bit more if it were someone who one might feel like they already get a lot of unwarranted credit — like a retiring CEO with an ever-increasing paycheck taking credit for, I don’t know, personally building a rocket with their own hands when everyone knows they barely know what a rocket is — but again…they’re on their way out. Unless they’re so prominent that it’s the kind of thing that’s going to be written in history books, then I’d classify it as “odd, but whatever.”
I get that LW1 was more asking for perspective rather than an actionable next step, and I appreciate that they did that. But I think it’s the same from that bent: the perspective is that it’s the kind of thing where you roll your eyes and move on.
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I feel like the subtext here is Carl wasn’t all that well liked and this isn’t the first time people have mocked him behind his back.
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Yeah, it seemed like he was unpopular (justified or not) and they’re just seeing this as another obnoxious thing done by Carl. But honestly — pretty soon you won’t have to work with him anymore! You can be kind until he leaves, and have the party if you planned to have a party. No need to deny everyone cake!
Totally.
EVEN IF Carl were talking as if he were responsible for the whole thing, the message only went to people who know his actual role! He’s retiring and (I assume) not using this as leverage to get a great next job.
And even taking LW at their word, their reaction is out of sync with the offense. I’ll accept that Carl’s goodbye email was overly braggy and obnoxious– that still doesn’t warrant cancelling his retirement party. Give him his party and celebrate you won’t be working with him in the future if he rubs you the wrong way LW.
The thing is Alison says the same thing in her response. LW sounds hierarchical and not very kind. You need draftspeople otherwise the work will not get done. It sounds like Carl was proud of their work over the years.
I got the same we are engineers and product managers we are better than you or our work is
More important than yours vibe. Every places role in many types of careers. Carl is retiring. It throwing him a party shows your own insecurity and pettiness. I am so glad I don’t work at your organization!
On a side note I manage a tons of people and literally almost everyone but the people who were treated poorly their entire careers come up to me and thank me for being a good boss, being kind to them, giving them credit and autonomy over their work. I respect them, their value and recognize without them the team wouldn’t be where we are. Many of those people never got that kind of recognition because they probably worked with people
Like LW1.
It is free to be kind. It is free to give people the benefit of the doubt.
The way you are applying that rule, we all have to be aghast at cheap ass rolls. We need to accept his interpretation of things he describes. The LW told us what was in the email–stuff about Carl’s “integral design accomplishments for an important product line.” Integral design accomplishments are not “I made this solo” and sound more or less like what actually happened. He goes on to say “The email includes a smiling photo of Carl standing next to nine products, as though he was the program manager who was responsible for the team of engineers who developed the products for the world to use!” That’s the part that people are responding to–as though only the program manager could send out this kind of photo, rather than someone saying, here’s the line of products where I did work that I’m proud of.
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*don’t need to accept
And even if the photographer was like “Now stand here and pose as though these are entirely your creations,” what’s Carl supposed to do? Dig in his heels until they agree to only use a photo that shows an appropriate degree of humility? That’s not being a team player!
+1
As a recently retired worker, LW came off mean and petty. Denying a retirement celebration based on the email announcing his retirement is really low. LW came off as if the “Program Manager” is the only employee qualified to take credit for anything.
There’s a difference , I think between taking the OP at their word as to facts –
and adopting the OPs interpretation
. I’m sure the email contained that photo, just as the OP said. I just don’t get where the described photo turns into he presented himself as the program manager – I mean he might have , but the letter didn’t mention anything other than the photo to support the idea that her was presenting himself as the program manager. The OP doesn’t even say that he took credit for things he didn’t do in the “bragging” paragraph.
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Yes, this, exactly. The whole reason a lot of writers are writing in is to check if their interpretation is valid; this site would be of use only to a very few rather unpleasant individuals of all we did was agree with everyone’s interpretation because “we’re supposed to believe them” – and that’s not at all how that rule is intended to work.
I’m taking the LW at their word that they say “engineer/engineering” six times in a letter complaining about a draftsman’s retirement email. That’s loud and clear.
And “we aren’t going to enable his delusion” is so mean and catty.
If the LW had said “I have this one coworker Carl who has always been a braggart, repeatedly taking personal credit for things an entire team did, and I’d rather not go to his retirement party”, that would be a totally different letter.
The thing is, even if Carl did take credit, OP’s company sounds like one with very well defined roles, so no one would actually think that Carl did all that alone because people know what the jobs entail.
Not to mention, it was an internal e-mail about his retirement, not for recruitment purposes.
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lol your name!
I think many of us are taking OP’s words at face value. They emphasis teamwork but then discredit Carl’s work/accomplishments by summing it up as “the engineers tell him what to do”. It is contradictory and ignores that without Carl/a draftsman, all nine of those products wouldn’t have seen completion.
Even if it was the most over-the-top, unbelievable, delusional bragging message – it was an internal email about his retirement. Unless I missed something that it also went to vendors/customers or posted on the website. It wasn’t him at a conference or in an industry newsletter (or, dare I say, LinkedIn). And even if so – would they believe that he was solely responsible? Would customers start to flee because they believe this company can’t function anymore because of his retirement? Would they need assurances that his knowledge was transferred appropriately?
Basically, roll your eyes and have some cake.
I’m a nurse and I love where I work. If I were retiring, and I took a picture in from of our sparkly new hospital building, with a caption saying “So proud of all we’ve accomplished!!”— would that mean I was delusional? Because I’m just a nurse?
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Right, no one’s going to see that and assume you’re trying to make out that you laid the bricks yourself.
+1. I would be thrilled if any of my retiring staff would pose for a photo taking pride in our accomplishments. I hope Carl enjoys retirement, because this seems like a crappy place to work if that’s the reaction.
It seems like a mean and _classist_ place to work. “Oh, of course Carl is only a lowly draughtsman, he should humbly acknowledge that a trained monkey could probably do his job and remember never to feel any sense of pride or ownership, that’s for PROFESSIONALS”. Coffee is for closers only, etc.
No retirement party for Carl, who never knew his place!
Worse, it sounds like OP1 might be a manager in which case they need retraining immediately.
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That stood out to me, that OP is a manager who wildly overreacted, privately laughed with others to Carl’s email, and is considering canceling the retirement party. OP needs management training asap.
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And OP if you and your peers have the instinct to mock coworkers, especially a sincere email like Carl’s, you frankly shouldn’t be in a position of power over others. You’re not suited for the responsibility.
People who do habitually look for ways to mock others, tend to delude themselves that “everyone does it”. But no, often when the catty/ condescending/ meaner people aren’t present, there’s a palpable sense of relief, and the general tenor of the conversation improves. Not everyone goes through adult life frequently making fun of people, and if you do, you should stop, not only for your and your employees’ sake, but so that you don’t become the person everyone’s glad when you aren’t there.
I am SO glad to see this thread, because the gross feeling I got from reading this letter made me immediately come down to the comments. I have been that person whose work could have easily been brushed off and laughed at by my ‘more educated’ coworkers, but they all made sure I knew how integral I was to our efforts and celebrated my work with me. That’s what teamwork actually is. The language here – ‘delusion’, ‘self-applauding’, ‘brazen’, ‘so-called’, ‘icky’ – is just so unnerving. I’m glad these people are not my colleagues and I hope they realize how this comes off to others.
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Yes! I’m an admin and my bosses and the majority of my coworkers are attorneys. At my last performance review, my bosses made sure to stress how much they appreciated all that I do and that I’m important part of the team. I’m not bringing in big bucks to the firm but they couldn’t do what they do without my help and I definitely contribute to the success of the company. If they acted like Carl’s colleagues I’d be out the door so fast.
OP2: do you really want to decide between turning the pumps off NOW in an emergency and finding your shoes first?
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I had the same thought. Working at a gas station seems high on the list of “you must be ready to flee at a moment’s notice” jobs. I’m surprised they don’t require safety footwear.
Also seems like Carl might be the only one working there who actually understands and values team work.
I work in a public agency full of engineers and many, many others producing gigantic and highly visible projects. We’ve had a lot of long-time employees retire in recent years. When those retirements are acknowledged with a list of the projects the person was involved with, I learn things I didn’t know about their time there and what they contributed to. It’s delightful. The things they’ve seen, the changes they’ve experienced over time–these are things newer employees wouldn’t have any idea about and they’re part of what we’ve accomplished as an agency.
That photo of nine products sounds like the equivalent–“Here’s what’s happened here that I’ve been proud to be a part of”.
Not once would I think any one of my retiring colleagues did it alone because that isn’t possible. Listing the projects doesn’t imply sole responsibility. Being in a picture isn’t a claim to be a project manager. LW1 has done at least some athletic jumping to conclusions, or the email text said things explicitly that they haven’t shared.
Some people are better at remembering to recognize the full team than others, which isn’t a reason to ignore someone’s retirement and deny them a party that presumably everyone else gets. In fact, at that retirement party I’d expect some of the other players to recognize Carl’s contributions and thank him for them.
What would LW1 list in their retirement email that they didn’t do alone but want to be recognized as being a part of? Some time sitting and thinking about the email they’d write when leaving might be illuminating. I know I want to be part of things bigger than what I can do alone.
Agree, what a bad-faith read on what (from what we’re told) the message said. If you really believe in teamwork then it shouldn’t blow your mind to see someone proud of products he helped with in some way. Yeesh.
Absolutely. Give Carl a break. He’s proud of his accomplishments and retiring. Posting a photo doesn’t mean he thinks he, alone, did the whole thing.
Yeah, I definitely felt like the engineers are being a little (a lot) precious about this and there’s a strong hint even in OP’s letter of “Well, Carl is just a draughtsman, it’s not like he does a real job around here.
“We aren’t motivated to give him a party because we aren’t going to enable his delusion” Oh, there is delusion in this workplace, but it isn’t Carl.
My Dad was proud to the end of his life of putting a man on the moon. When he was deep in Alzheimers and didn’t recognize us anymore and hadn’t spoken for years, when an anniversary of the moon landing was on TV, suddenly perked up and said ‘Moon shot.’ When he was retiring from his work life this was one of the accomplishments he was proudest of. The Seattle times did a featured obituary that showcased his contributions to the moon shot among other things.
He did not single handedly put a man on the moon and never claimed to. He had an important role as did many many many other people who designed the program and solved the problems that allowed for success. His pride doesn’t deny the accomplishments of others.
I suspect your retiree doesn’t intend to deny it was a team effort, but is proud of his work. He should be congratulated not laughed at.
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Your dad sounds like he led an interesting life and was really proud of tne things he accomplished. How wonderful.
I’m sorry for your loss.
Your comment hit me a lot, actually. My grandpa was a rocket scientist who basically at the end of his life fell into alcoholism and didn’t quite know how to reconcile being a super important guy who put a man on the moon with his post retirement life. And this hit me in relative to the first question n people want to feel important and like they contributed. And they probably did. And let’s let them feel that way.
We have a whole thing in our society where we are putting people out to pasture (ok full disclosure I owned a race horse closely decided from Man O war that lived her later life being taken care of and loved by my amazing dad until she was in her 30s) and they are supposed to be happy with their treatment. My experience is that these people are our pioneers. Not all of them.
but everyone wants their life and career to have meaning. They aren’t saying they did it themselves. You want something you contributed to to have purpose. And it’s ok to say you contributed to projects with purpose.
For better or worse I left one of my last jobs with a signed VC-25 photo. I was a cog in a wheel but I was round of that wheel!
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Ugh. Sorrry. I swear i check for edits but the phone is its whole thing….
There’s an Irish song, “Ireland Unfree” about an elderly man at the end of his life, a man who had fought for Irish freedom and been a personal friend of Padraig Pearse (the leader) “but now he’s just left with his memories of old, for his name nor his story will ever be told.”
Making the same point, that many people contributed to all the great historical events and we only remember the “big names”. The others age and go from being involved in huge historical events to just being ordinary old men and women whose work often goes unrecognised.
One of the astronauts – I think it was Armstrong but may be mistaken – went to visit the women who sewed the space suits, to thank them. Because he recognized their work was absolutely vital. OP #1, sharing credit doesn’t take away from your hard work. Bean-counting like this makes you look petty and insecure.
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I read a fascinating book with a chapter about spacesuits recently (“The golden thread” by Kassia St Clair).
The space suits were made by Playtex. Yes, that Playtex. There was apparently some… culture clash between the seamstresses and the NASA project managers, but the Playtex suits were by far the best in the contract competition. Sewing prowess for the win!
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The sewing machines are actually on the NASA tour!
Ooh. And my local library has a copy too. Thanks!
Not just the suits. The gold stuff you see on the Apollo lander is a fabric (literally made from gold) that uses reflectivity to reduce heating and radiation exposure.
The cloth is delicate and difficult to work with. The NASA techs were slow to iterate prototypes. So they brought in a woman whose background was in bespoke dressmaking. She new how to work with difficult fabrics, could visualize how to break a three dimensional drawing into flat panels, and could turn new ideas around very very fast.
She spent a long time in the moon program and was very successful. I wish I could remember her name.
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And modern carbon fiber construction is basically working with cloth. They actually use the same machines as industrial clothing makers.
Your letter highlights something LW1 doesn’t see. Even if your dad was “just” the receptionist who buzzed the scientists through security it was a contribution that is worthy of being proud of. I mean, the scientists have to get through the door to work, the draftsman has to do the drawings. My last boss didn’t seem to understand that and it was often disheartening to see those sort of contributions go unrecognized.
That is so cool that your dad got to be part of something so historic! I just wish I was old enough at the time to remember the moon landing personally.
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I was 3. My hippie parents had a ‘virgin moon’ party while we watched the landing. One of my first memories.
This story made me tear up. My mom had vascular dementia. The thing that persisted for her was her hospitality/hostess instincts that had been part of her forever, still evident when she couldn’t form a sentence any more. I’m glad you have good memories of your grandfather’s pride in his accomplishments.
My uncle was a draftsman on the Boeing 767. Yeah, he didn’t build the plane himself, but it was really cool knowing he helped. He had a health issue that made using his hands super painful, but his art and work ‘art’ was worth it.
My grandfather worked for an elevator company that designed and built elevators for many of the world’s tallest buildings. Every time I see one in the wild, I think of him. Did he design every single one of them? Of course not. But he worked on one of the teams that did. He encouraged my interest in science at a time when girls were (still) discouraged from being science-oriented and taught me not to be afraid to fail because that’s the only way we learn.
Be kind to Carl. He’s leaving a life he’s known for a long time. When it’s your time to retire, may you have similar pride in what you’ve accomplished.
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Three generations of our family were proud of the Hoover Dam, which our grandfather built. It was always a given someone had to hold back the water, of course.
But I thought it was black women who got us to the Moon??
LW2, are you sure it’s not a safety hazard to take off your shoes behind the counter? Lots of workplaces adjacent to cars require closed-toe footwear for a reason, and… frankly… I’ve yet to see a gas station floor on which I’d be comfortable putting my bare or socked feet without shoes.
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I was also thinking of it as a safety issue from a “what if you need to react to a gas station fire” perspective. If you’re the lone employee on duty at a gas station, I’d think that it’s on you to quickly run out and press the “cut off the gas” button (though I’m sure the process for this varies from one gas station to another). Taking your shoes off can compromise your ability to respond to such emergency events.
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I had this same thought. OP, it’s probably best to keep your shoes on.
In the LW place, I would jsut get some super comfy slippers or shoes so I kept my feet protected. That rather than say step on a nail or tack or shard of glass. There are indoor shoes that are basically slippers but look like flats and of course plenty of flats that are unobtrusive but still shoes.
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Yup, I came here to say that the LW needs a comfy pair of shoes, not a system of taking them off and putting them back on!
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I certainly have shoes I can tolerate now and I understand people need to wear shoes in many places, but I do think it’s not necessarily just a need for better shoes. Personally I’m so much more comfy barefoot (sensory issues with ADHD and autism in my case, I used to cry about having to wear shoes as a kid, even when I got the comfiest shoes, though my feelings are less extreme with time, medication, etc). I work from home and it’s a world of difference to get to wear leggings and no shoes most days. I’m not saying LW won’t have to wear shoes but it isn’t necessarily “you’re wearing the wrong shoes”. Wearing shoes may just legitimately be a thing they wish they didn’t have to do. Idk I get frustrated by comments and ideas that suggest the notion that people aren’t feeling how they feel, and I definitely feel my feet can’t breathe in shoes, socks, slippers, etc. I hope LW actually could get better shoes that completely change their sensation but that’s not necessarily a given is all I’m saying and these comments seem to suggest that it must be a material or type of shoe. Sometimes people just don’t like wearing shoes (again that doesn’t mean they don’t have to, but they don’t have to like it or pretend there’s a solution).
Since they mentioned letting their feet breathe, maybe some shoes made of real leather or some athletic-type shoes made of breathable material would help. With good soles that will stand up to walking around a concrete and possibly oily gas station.
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Oh, and socks made with real cotton. Not as easy to get these days because the socks in the drugstore look and feel like cotton, but are made of polyester. I got some socks made with a cotton blend at Target recently in the men’s sports section (I’m a woman). Those should help OP’s feet breathe too.
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I wear black cotton socks most of the time and used to be able to get them 100% — can’t find those anymore but you can get packs of 8 or so at Target that are 80+ % cotton.
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Yes, I was fooled-thought I was wearing cotton socks and they were actually polyester. Contributed to a bothersome athlete’s foot infection. Thanks, sock makers! :p
I haven’t seen any that are more than 50% cotton in years. The “absorbent”, “moisture wicking” ones are polyester and nylon.
All I could think of when I read “let the dogs breathe” was “you mean, let us all SMELL your dogs”. Gas stations tend to have enough unpleasant smells without adding footsweat to the bouquet.
And yes I think bare feet in a gas station or even a convenience store (which many gas stations also are) is a safety issue also.
This seems a situation made for crocs.
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Or sandals.
That was my thought. Get some dark colored crocs that match your workwear. They’re (relatively) cheap, won’t stand out enough to matter, and will solve the breathing and comfort problem.
I’ve never taken off my shoes when working retail, but did it sometimes when working sitting down in an office. I used to wear ballet flats, so they are easy to put back on, not having straps or anything that takes time. But I’ve never walked barefoot at work, it was literally for a few minutes at a time while seated at my desk.
I think it’s fine as long as OP is wearing shoes they can slip on or off without involving their hands. Vans or loafer would be perfect.
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This was my thought as well. If you are taking off your shoes, no one should be able to tell. Which means no one can tell that you are putting them back on again. The shoes only come off when you are sitting at your workstation and immediately go on if you need to move from the workstation, even for a moment (both for safety reasons and for the reason of Ewww)
That said, a gas station is an environment where I would welcome shoes.
This was my thought. If it takes more than a second to put your shoes on then it’s not an option when your job requires you to be wearing closed toe shoes.
Also – is expect you to be on camera all the time. If you’re required to wear shoes just wear them for your shift. Go barefoot at home
A lot of gas stations have mini stores that sell packaged food and drinks. Going barefoot in one of those is a health code violation.
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That was my first thought too, or the ubiquitous roller grills and fountain drinks- I’m not 100% sure where health code falls on selling pre-packaged goods for outside consumption, but I know darn well that ready-to-eat cooked food means that restaurant rules start applying.
This was my first thought. When I’ve worked as a cashier we were not allowed to wear open toed shoes as it was a safety hazard – even in a supermarket there was too much of a risk of dropping something heavy or breakable on your feet. I never saw it happen but it was definitely a possibility. I can’t imagine a gas station is much safer!
If you’re literally just sitting there at 2 AM and no one is around I can see the appeal to kicking off your shoes and letting your feet breathe for a bit. But as soon as you get up or a person appears, I’d slip them back on immediately.
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Yep, I concur with the safety hazards in grocery stores. As a merchandiser, I was required to wear closed toed shoes, but one summer day I decided to wear sandals. My work partner was wearing flip flops We were resetting a section and I dropped a metal shelf on my foot. Luckily, no damage was done to my foot (though it did hurt like the dickens!!) We both decided right then no more open toed shoes!!
The first part of your comment makes sense and is relevant. But obviously the OP does in fact feel comfortable being barefoot in the gas station while knowing what the floor is like. As someone who went around barefoot all the time before I got old enough that my feet needed more support, there are lots of things that just don’t seem as gross if you’re barefoot all the time as they do to people who always wear shoes. (To me, to be honest, wearing shoes all the time and having my feet always be sweaty and smelly – or smelly from the shoes even if they weren’t sweaty at the time – was a lot grosser.) If there’s a job requirement or a safety issue – which is very plausible – that’s much more relevant.
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À petrol spill?
Agree that removing your shoes while at work is an OH&S violation. My workplace employee handbook specifically states that all employees must wear closed toed-rubber soled shoes and those in the mechanics shop must wear certified steel toed boots. Failing to do so would result in immediate termination in my work place.
And as a side note, if I came into any store and saw the worker ambling around without shoes on (or scrambling to put the shoes back on when I came in), I would be hightailing it out of there in disgust. There are very few public places it is acceptable to be without shoes (in my opinion).
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I regularly went without shoes as a shopgirl. Problem: it was a shoe store.
I have worked in gas stations as a manager. I can just about guarantee you that wearing shoes at all times is a requirement. Even if you are just selling packaged food a license is likely required which would require shoes and you do need to be prepared to deal with gas or other fluid spills. And on the simplest level the station likely has brand standards (if they are a sizable chain, franchise or have branded gas like BP, Exxon, etc) that include uniform requirements for employees which would include wearing shoes.
Now the realty is that reliable overnight employees are hard to find and are generally not supervised with much attention so LW may be safe from any disciplinary issues if they take their shoes off behind the counter from time to time. Honestly I would be horrified and confused if someone was walking around without shoes but firing would not be a thought at all if you are consistently doing a good job with the rest of your job. I would question your judgement but the bar is going to be set fairly low in most cases.
I would caution that there are some very real safety issues to be aware of and a pair of sandals is a better choice (still likely not following rules which probably call for closed toe shoes). The biggest fear I have is potentially for blood borne pathogens. Unlikely but also a risk I am not interested in taking. Plus all of the normal grossness of a gas station floor. This is why I would question your judgement if I discovered you going without shoes.
I worked at a gas station for many years. It would have been perfectly safe to slip off my shoes behind the counter and slip them on as needed.
Except when the car on fire rolled into the station… and stopped next to the propane tank.
There was no time for finding shoes in that instance.
(Several people RAN to the car and pushed it back from the propane while using the extinguisher. Most customers fled in the other direction)
I can count many situations where immediate action was required and I would not have had time to gather my shoes.
Invest in some extra comfy shoes. The life you save may be your own.
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I’m thinking about what happens to the insides of the shoes when her feet or socks carry the yuk from the floor into them. Super unsanitary all around as well as unsafe. When she slips and falls the workplace investigation is going to find she wasn’t wearing proper footwear and that’s on her.
Slipping them off while she’s sitting there? Sure, I’ve done that. Walking around in bare feet or socks as if I’m in my living room when I’m in an actual workplace? Big nope.
The ONLY gas station floor I would ever consider putting my bare dogs on, and that’s only out of strict necessity, like my shoe broke and I am going inside to purchase more shoes, is Buc-ees.
You might be thinking a gas station wouldn’t have shoes for sale . . . and to that I say you’ve never been to Buc-ees. They do in fact have shoes. And sometimes adult beaver onesies. Also an entire home decor section with Texas themed cutting boards and wall art.
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The gas station down the street (not a Buc-ees) carries fake hair, so I definitely wouldn’t be surprised if there were, at the very least, some flip-flops for sale there or even some decent pairs of shoes. (I was genuinely surprised at what they carry. We also have a chain of convenience/gas stations that is pretty extensive- I wouldn’t be surprised if knock off Crocs were available there.)
I am so horrified I’ve run out of pearls to clutch. I hate, hate, hate being barefoot. I even wear flip flops in my own house. The idea of going without shoes in a place where there might be food spills or other nasties (I’m assuming this is a mini-mart that sells basic processed food items) is so revolting to me that if I were on a weight loss diet, I’d thank the LW for wrecking my appetite.
For a gas station, IIRC, OSHA requirements might be not only closed-toe, but also non-slip soles. There are biohazards thanks to the bathrooms (and clientele walking in), chemical hazards, potential glass hazards (if bottles drop or windows shatter), and fire hazards (both in and out of the building).
I wouldn’t recommend taking your shoes off any longer than you absolutely need to in order to adjust something (i.e., a sock or bandage).
OP 2: Why in the world would you want to take off your shoes at work? Is your workplace cleaned everyday? Sanitized?
Or do you always wear very thick socks? TBH, even then I wouldn’t go barefoot in such a public space.
And, if you decide to keep removing them occasionally, you must ALWAYS put them on the second you leave your desk.
It’s a public health and safety concern.
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Maybe instead of totally barefoot or socks, they can bring some more comfortable footwear for behind the counter and then get back into the customer-facing shoes outside the counter.
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This is probably a good option; my partner has really bad plantar fasciitis (like, to the point where he may need surgery), and he will switch to orthopedic support sandals once everyone who cares that he’s wearing closed-toed shoes has left (he also works nights, and does a traditional office about 50% of the time; he would never wear open toed shoes the 50% of the time he’s collecting samples in the field for sanitation/safety reasons). Sandals for behind the counter, something like Vans or another slip on closed toed shoe for “customer facing” (or deity of your choice forbid needing to run out and hit the emergency shut off), and you got your bases covered.
When I worked retail, a coworker in the dresses department wore bunny slippers during slow shifts. Whenever a customer or another associate came into her department, she’d scurry behind a mirror and switch into sky-high heels.
I am certainly not one who prescribes to this, but there are many people who prefer a non shoed life! There are those unhinged memes of people creating fake shoes so they can walk around in shops bare feet and not be told off.
I think the main safety risk would be to the OP if something fell on their foot or they trod on something and injured their foot. Unless they’re putting their feet all over the food, I doubt that it’s much of a hazard to customers, though if there are diseases that are spread by walking barefoot I’m sure the medical contingent will chime in.
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Not medical, and this only applies if the customers are also barefoot, but I’m thinking of things like foot fungus/athlete’s foot. I had it in my early 30s and it’s not pleasant. I probably ruined three pairs of shoes with my overenthusiastic use of shoe disinfectant and my socks don’t last very long because I always wash them in hot water (60 C/140 F) because it kills the fungus.
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Except that foot fungus is incubated in warm, damp places — like inside shoes. So having your feet dry would seem to be a way to avoid athlete’s foot. If you’re ruining shoes and socks by trying to kill the fungus, you probably need to do more to keep your feet dry. (not wearing shoes at home, for instance)
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I don’t wear shoes at home, although I do wear them at the office. I’m no longer constantly disinfecting my shoes and ruining them, to be fair. I also have no idea where I got the fungus from originally.
Yeah, no. This is a gas station after all. Even if the LW isn’t in charge of dealing with the pumps, and it doesn’t sound like they are, all kinds of emergencies can happen at a gas station even if they don’t involve combustible substances and fire.
When I worked retail in my late teens and early twenties, one requirement in every job was always closed toe shoes. Thankfully sneakers were fine at most of those jobs.
If LW is sitting down, their feet may not even be touching the floor (mine wouldn’t be). I often take my shoes off and sort of rest my toes on top of them.
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Yeah, I was thinking that if that were the case, then sure, it’s okay to take your shoes off for a bit while you’re sitting down, but I wouldn’t recommend standing directly on the floor barefoot or even in your socks. I worked part time for a summer at a fast food place and it was unbelievable how disgusting my shoes got in those three months (and yes, we mopped the floor every night). I guess the floor behind the counter of a gas station/convenience store is a lot cleaner than a fast food place, but I still wouldn’t want to subject my feet or socks to it.
And I would do this only if you are wearing slip-on shoes of some type where you can get them back on again really quickly. I wouldn’t be doing this kind of thing if I were wearing sneakers – lacing and unlacing them would be a pain in the neck to have to do it multiple times a shift.
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All my life I have set my shoes that laced to a level where I could slip them on and off without ever messing with the laces again. Because yeah it’s a pain to tie and untie all the time.
It’s not as unusual as you think it is. As a teacher, sometimes I feel I spend an inordinate amount of time teaching kids to keep their shoes their on in formal environments and for some, it takes a couple of years before they’re trained into it. If you’ve got sensory issues you may never get used to it and constantly be longing to take them off as an adult. Sandie Shaw went barefoot her whole career, though that may have been old fashioned shoes. I do take your wider point about comfortable shoes, my personal choice would be uggs, but that might not help if the issue is that feeling enclosed is uncomfortable.
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I dated a guy who HATED wearing shoes. He would even bike to work in flip-flops because wearing shoes for the three-mile ride was too much. (He would put on real shoes at work, but I bet he took them off while working at his desk.) He would be barefoot as much as possible and I was always impressed that he could walk over rocks and barnacles with no pain whatsoever. I wish I had feet that tough, but the one summer when I decided I would try to toughen up my feet and walk barefoot whenever possible I stepped on a bee on day 3 and gave up (bee/wasp sting allergy – didn’t seem like a good idea to continue on that course).
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Ha! ha!! in the South we refer to that as grocery store feet. For those going??? you would see kids with their mothers at the grocery store and those younguns would have feet with soles as tough as shoe leather and just as black. We would toss our shoes at the beginning of summer and not wear them again except for something like church. He must have grown up the same way.
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Yeah, as a kid I only wore shoes in the summer for Sunday morning church (barefoot for the evening service). I much prefer being barefoot, even now.
My 3.5 year old constantly takes off her shoes – and socks at home. I don’t fight with her about it unless we’re going out since I don’t wear shoes inside either. I’m pretty sure she does the same at school, especially if it’s warm out, and I’ve noticed when she takes them off that her feet are warm so that’s probably part of why. I don’t foresee that dramatically changing broke kindergarten!
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*before kindergarten, thanks autocorrect
I do that! I never wear shoes in the house for several reasons. I am either barefoot or in compression socks. I have these amazing slip on rubber soled slipper type shoes that can be worn outside no problem. And no it will never change. My youngest daughter started yanking her socks off as a newborn by wriggling her feet. It kept up all through childhood. Her feet were always like ice in the winter and it drove me crazy lol.
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My mom laughs because I did the same thing as a kid. In the summer she’d yell at me because I’d go out in the driveway without shoes.
I’ve worked with several people who have taken their shoes off for the majority of the working day, and just padded around in socks. But then I’ve always worked in offices, and these people weren’t client/customer facing, and there were no safety issues to worry about. The people I’ve worked with would always put their shoes back on for meetings, too.
I’d worry about the safety/hygiene aspect of taking shoes off while working in a shop/petrol station/etc, and I also think I wouldn’t do it if customers could see me, because it just doesn’t present a great impression and people might think it’s odd. In that case I think finding a really comfortable pair of shoes would be the best idea.
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I used to be known as the slipper lady, because I wore biking shoes to cycle to work than put on slippers at the office. No health or safety violations, no clients, just people from head office designing to drop in from time to time.
Tbh I think the whole “it’s gross to be barefoot out in public” is a very cultural thing. I’ve been barefoot in public spaces a couple times (usually for some reason, not randomly, but still) but I didn’t realize that so many people were turned off by that
May I suggest having some slippers or more comfortable slip-on shoes to keep behind your work desk/table?
LW#1 I can’t lie. About halfway through your letter I found myself thinking that the comments section for this was going to be a roast.
Let Carl be proud. It’s like you are saying if you weren’t one of the 5 really important people who worked on this, you don’t count. And, well, that’s just not true.
The person who made sure your checks were paid on time probably didn’t build the items, but they matter. Or the recruiters doing hiring so you had the team in place to function. Or the person in charge of paying rent on your office and work space.
I could go on. But honestly you’re letter came across as really mean spirited and that’s even if he’s not retiring. Knowing he’s retiring makes it even worse.
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People generally know that manufactured products are a team effort. The development itself does not make a sellable product, but also cheap enough raw materials, production within tight spec limits or quality control. So even a program manager could not rightfully claim to be the main responsible person for the product!
The overall tone of the letter is mean and petty in the sense that Carl does not know his place. If the engineers’ work is so integral in comparison to all the other teams and departments, everybody in the company is already aware of that and Carl’s email will not convince them otherwise. So what exactly punish him for… ?
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Yeah. It’s just awful. Carl isn’t an *engineer* so he doesn’t count.
The end also got me too. LW said they don’t want to mock Carl because that’s not nice. I’m pretty sure nice left the building at this company a long time ago.
I wonder if LW1 thinks an appropriate email would have been one expressing thanks to the engineers, for the opportunity to work below them.
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Whoof. Yes, that is probably what they’d expect.
Nailed it.
I work as a technician with engineers and this letter reminded me of the engineers who treat techs like we are complete idiots. The tone is so classist and condescending to the non engineers working on these projects. It is basically saying how dare a mere draftsman feel proud of his work.
Unless Carl was some tiny cog in the machine that really contributed nothing of value, I will join the chorus in being confused by this derision and mocking of him.
Don’t we want people to be proud of their accomplishments? Even the Australian who comes from a very strong culture of tall poppy syndrome thinks this response to Carl is kind of mean
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I mean, since we haven’t read the email, I guess it’s possible he wrote something which everyone would agree is outrageously over the top. But even then, it sounds like this was solely an internal email, so people already know what they worked on and what Carl contributed – I would think yet differently if this went out to all contacts, stakeholders, whoever.
But also, the letter kind of reads to me like it’s the picture that annoys people the most and IDK, it simply doesn’t read as huge or even particularly unusual to me.
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It’s possible the specific wording of the email was the problem, but nothing in the OP’s description indicates anything egregious beyond sending an email about being proud of his contributions, and including a photo that seems to have been taken as some sort of claim of ownership. As described, the delusion is not on Carl’s part!
Indeed, the picture seems to be the big thing that bugs the OP, but did he want Carl to drag the whole team away from their work so he could take a picture with everybody? People tend to roll their eyes at that kind of thing when it’s done by a pro for marketing purposes. I can’t imagine they want Carl doing it for his personal use.
He took a selfie, goodness. Let’s all move on.
And he’s retiring! If he was using language that claimed a bit more than he actually did in a cover letter for an internal promotion (for example), I could see finding ground to be a bit annoyed. But in a “thanks for all the good times” retirement email? Seems like a great time to be gracious (and it’s always a great time to be gracious about everyone’s – up and down the hierarchy – contributions to team projects, IMO).
IKR? And I don’t get how the email was a “morale buster”. I feel like I’m back in middle school, when the kid who got the highest grade got hated on.
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That really stood out for me actually, as did the whole “Carl is taking something away from us” tone. It made me wonder if the others feel recognised or if recognition is only allowable at retirement. I’d be shocked if the culture of praise in this company, or team, is healthy.
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Yeah, I keep thinking about this too. Folks generally do not respond with this kind of bean counting if the metaphorical beans are plentiful. Does the company recognize effort along the way? Is LW 1 getting consistent acknowledgement for their contributions? If not, I can better understand the reaction, though it is still misdirected.
Exactly! This is an internal email from someone who is retiring and feels a sense of pride in the contributions he’s made over the years. Unless Carl is an absolutely horrible person who has treated all of his coworkers terribly, this would actually be a great time for OP and team to thank Carl for his contributions instead of griping that their own work wasn’t adequately acknowledged in an internal email that wasn’t about them.
I think seeing someone viciously mocked for an email like that would be a morale buster for me. Not the email itself.
At my first job out of college, I was a tiny cog in a machine (on a team of about 700 people) and even I got credit for shipping the team’s products.
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Everyone is important. Think about how you feel when you order something and it arrives two weeks late, thrown in a box, broken from inadequate packaging, etc. Shipping can potentially have a big influence on customer satisfaction and a company’s image.
I don’t know, even tiny cogs keep machines running even if they are seen as insignificant.
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My thought exactly. The guy’s retiring and proud of the work he did. Good! If we could only all be so lucky no matter how “important” our roles seemed to others!
Even if Carl was a tiny cog—if he was a tiny cog that worked there a long time and really did work on those products, why isn’t it fine? Let’s celebrate the tiny cogs too when they retire. Now if Carl is mean/rude/difficult/demeaning etc to others, that’s different, but judging if he “matters enough” to be proud or celebrated at retirement seems odd.
I really wish we could normalize letting people who are more comfortable without shoes go without in most settings.
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(And same goes for bras or hats or gloves or most other clothes…I wish we’d invest less time in policing other people’s clothing choices and just let people wear whatever they’re happiest in.)
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YES! I’m all for letting people wear what they want!
Policing other people’s choices to validate their own seems to have become the default mode for many, just in general.
When I lived in Hawaii for a year as a child, shoes were not required at school. That lasted just long enough for my brother to require an emergency room visit for glass in his foot. I imagine most public places (in the US, at least) have shoe rules to avoid getting blamed for foot injuries and having to clean up after them. Also, as someone who just has to look at a locker room floor to acquire a raging case of athlete’s foot, there are contagious disease reasons for shoe policies.
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Yes, this isn’t just about being comfortable. It’s a workplace safety issue in most cases.
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+1
+1, especially from a person who enjoys the shoe-less life at home, GRIN, even if I step on something the cat did on the carpet
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I would much rather step in the cats’ messes barefoot than in socks or shoes. Gross, yes, but it’s so much easier to clean skin!
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So. True.
100%
If you work anywhere with hot, sharp or caustic materials, shoes could be the difference between having toes and not having toes (or feet, for that matter).
The argument of ‘let kids run around barefoot’ also goes with ‘what is in their environment and how well do the kids recognize and adapt?’ As a barefooted kid, I stepped on a rusty nail and required tetanus shots. Later, I stubbed my toe on concrete and the blood was quite free flowing (and it took sooo long to fully heal). And it’s not enough to ensure that the immediate area is clean- you also need to think about evacuation routes (i.e, in case of fire, you don’t want to be thinking about where you are walking or limping out- you just want to quickly and efficiently evacute). I’ve worked in an environment where the clients were barefoot (i.e., a daycare) and it’s a whole different set of protocols than non-barefoot environments.
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My front yard has sandburs and fire ants. I read about the joys of walking barefoot through the dewy grass, think of doing that in my front yard, and cringe. My kids may have gone barefoot in the house, but when they played outside they wore shoes.
In an office where everyone’s sitting at a computer all day, sure, let’s normalize folks going barefoot if they want to. In a lot of workplaces, though, shoes are a safety measure.
I mentioned upthread about the trials of being a teacher in a “shoes on” culture, because certain children loathe it. I’m really fascinated about a school that allows shoes off, because I’m wondering how you coach children into shoes without the practice? Even in my situation (northern England), I’ll sense when kids have reached their limit and I might allow shoes off here and there if it’s safer or less formal (hot day on the grass doing last week of school activities). I imagine the opposite is true for shoes off teachers “we are now in a situation that really merits shoes”.
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Yeah, my sister had a real time of it trying to coach my nephew into wearing shoes in preparation for him starting school. Before that, he’d wear shoes if he was out and about, but he’d never want to wear them indoors (and to be fair, in our family we don’t tend to wear shoes indoors at home!) So he really couldn’t grasp why he’d have to wear shoes all day at school. He eventually got used to it as a ‘well, you have to wear your uniform for school, and these shoes are part of your uniform, so you need to wear those for school as well’ thing, but I can imagine if his teachers started letting them all take their shoes off it’d just cause more confusion!
Yeah, like I know this is an extreme example but my uncle contracted MRSA in his foot from a gym floor. Shoes serve a safety purpose. I feel like exploring other more comfortable/lightweight shoes is needed before LW goes to taking them off.
Many years ago my late grandmother taught elementary school in Hawaii. She commented that the children didn’t have shoes. Mind you, this was around 1950! I imagine, in part, it was because traditional Hawaiian life was strong in that community.
In my grandmother’s childhood in North Dakota, lots of children went barefoot in summer – but not in winter!
At least in my part of Canada, it’s a lot more common to not wear shoes in certain public places. Like when I go to the salon or doctor, it’s a shoes-off situation.
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I’m also a Canadian. What I’ve experienced is that there will typically be slippers, flip flops, or disposable booties to put on if the shoes have to come off because of messy weather outdoors.
The salon?! Why would you want to have bare feet around scissors and that much hair
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If the scissors are near your feet, you need a different hairdresser.
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Anything can be dropped, no?
Anyway, not something I would do in any case.
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right? And those scissors are seriously sharp. They could do serious damage to a bare foot.
Things can get dropped.
The alternative is that the salon spends the entire day mopping snow-mud melt off their floors. Tracking that much dirt and water is a slipping hazard as well as being filthy.
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I’m also in a climate with four seasons. The salons I’ve been to are all either inside a mall where tracking dirt wouldn’t be an issue, or have double doors with about a meter or so (about 3 ft) between the doors. The idea is to have a large enough space so the outer door, which generally opens outwards, can close before you open the inner door that opens inwards. This pretty much eliminates drafts in the winter. In the space between the doors, there’s a wall-to-wall doormat that you can wipe your feet on before you enter the salon. We learn to wipe our feet early, and I do it without thinking. We have a doormat at home and I can’t walk on it without wiping my feet, not even when it’s dry in the summer. I can’t step on a doormat without attempting to wipe my feet, regardless of the weather.
It’s really interesting to see how different cultures have solved the same problems.
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We have the same arrangement in lots of places in Canada, but it doesn’t really address the problem. Our specific winter climate often involves a lot more salty slush than other places in the world!
The little ‘airlock’ with mats for wiping your feet is not enough for this – it’s actually jut there to keep down the heating costs by limiting the amount of hot air that escapes when you open the door.
Also in Canada – I think the ‘no shoes in the salon or doctor’s office’ thing is really only in the winter. Because of exactly this. The rest of the year, people keep their shoes on.
Interesting. I’m in Finland, very much a shoes-off culture, where shoes are expected to be off for any but the most formal of occasions when visiting people’s homes. Even then, people generally change shoes when they arrive.
In elementary school, shoes are generally off but the kids are expected to wear either non-slip slippers or socks in class because most classes are held in the teacher’s homeroom. This may mean that kids have to stand in the yard in their socks in midwinter if there’s a fire drill… If they’re lucky, they pass their lockers and can pick up their shoes, but there’s no time to put them on. In middle and high school, kids generally wear shoes all day because they switch classrooms between nearly every class.
At doctor’s offices I’ve always worn my shoes in Finland, unless the visit is for an issue with my feet, of course. We also don’t have patient scrubs except in hospital, patients take the clothes off that cover the bits of them that the doctor needs to see and keep the rest on. When I see my ob/gyn, I take my pants and underwear (and shoes!) off for the pelvic exam, put them back on (at least the underwear and pants, I leave my shoes off to save time) and take and my top and bra off for the breast exam.
I do take my shoes off for my approx. monthly pedicure (d’oh!) but I wouldn’t dream of taking them off at a hair salon.
I always find it very weird in American movies and TV shows when shoes are stored in the bedroom and people wear them all day. At home I’m either barefoot or wear socks (yay for underfloor heating!) unless I’m on my feet for more than about 15 minutes at a time, and that’s when I pull out my Birkenstocks. This is usually for prepping and cooking a more elaborate dinner than usual, for example Christmas dinner. Christmas dinner with family is a shoes off event even though we’re generally dressed slightly nicer than usual.
That said, in many work environments, shoes are necessary for safety reasons.
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Could have written this all myself (except for the bit of being in Finland).
I’m curious – how do ‘shoes off’ cultures manage when someone needs a special insole to walk comfortably? Does the person end up having to explain their medical condition over and over? (I myself have been dealing with a plantar fascia issue that has put Dr Scholl’s in all of my shoes, including my house shoes)
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They just wear their shoes and wipe them well. Or bring/use shoe covers. It’s not a huge deal.
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Or have one special pair of indoor-only shoes that they bring with them and change into once inside the house – like a pair of slippers only actual shoes.
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Yeah, I have a pair of indoor crocs and I take them with me when I know there’s going to be long time standing on cold floors ahead.
I’m a Canadian (aka. shoes off inside the house) with plantar fasciitis – I have indoor slippers with appropriate support. When I go to someone else’s house, I bring them and swap outside shoes for inside shoes when I get inside.
I have shoes in the bedroom because that’s where all the other clothes are, and I will often want to match my shoes to what I am wearing. I also tend to have a lot of shoes and there’s not room for them anywhere else.
I have sensory issues and I cannot abide the way it feels to wear socks or tights without also having shoes on. It’s just absolutely repulsive to me, so once I have those on I have to put my shoes on.
What part of Canada do you live in? I have seen medical booties as slippers, fancy flip-flops at a spa, and shoe and boot covers, all provided by the business, but I have never seen a public place where people pad around barefoot or in socks as the default. I have lived in Ontario, BC, and the NWT.
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Where I am, it’s 100% the norm of taking your shoes off when you go into someone’s house. Generally, when you go to a gathering, you can see how busy things are by the pile of shoes in the entrance. For medical needs, you would either bring a pair of indoor shoes (or slippers) or say something like “Do you mind if I keep my shoes on, I’ve got a foot thing.”
All that being said, it would be unusual, almost unheard off to go barefoot in indoor public settings, including school. Like Ellis Bell, some kids have a harder time with this than others, but the great croc trend seems to be a happy middle of the road.
I grew up in Michigan, which had similar problems. Many people I know had shoes-off homes, but I didn’t encounter many public places that were shoes-off.
I do not cosign this and do not think it is comparable to wearing a hat. Wearing a hat, or gloves, or bra affect nobody but the wearer. Feet often smell and people should not be expected to smell feet all day.
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I agree with the hat etc not being comparable, but… Feet usually smell exactly because they have been confined in shoes or boots all day. I’m from another culture where shoes are often taken off when indoors, and smelly feet is not a big problem here (teenage boys and sports shoes are the exceptions).
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That would require an entire cultural shift to how people largely wear shoes.
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I think the point is that not everyone’s feet smell, so it doesn’t necessarily affect others
Yeah, my feet don’t smell any more than my hands or other body parts that are exposed to the air. I prefer being barefoot, other than the lack of an arch support, and if you are barefoot a lot of the time, you’ve essentially got a leather sole protecting you from rocks and germs, as much as a soft moccasin sole would protect you.
Wearing a bra is not a health and safety concern (large boobs and back pain not withstanding).
Wearing a hat – assuming you mean a wool beanie not a hard hat – is not a health and safety concern. Ditto gloves – although there are far more scenarios requiring safety gloves.
Shoes are a health and safety issue.
Do they need to be hard and constrictive? No (unless, again it’s a steel toe cap environment). But they should be *on* especially when walking around a floor that you personally are not responsible for keeping clear and clean.
Also – I love being barefoot, but the mere idea of just going to the loo at work with nothing on my feet makes me want to check I’m up to date on my vaccines! Ick!
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Reminds me of those unhinged people who wander around aeroplanes and then USE THE BATHROOM in socks or worse, bare feet
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Unless you have open wounds on your feet, I’m not sure how it’s that much of a health hazard compared to touching the bathroom surfaces with your hands, or sitting on the toilet seat. I don’t particularly want any part of my body to touch an airplane bathroom, but my feet aren’t really any more at risk than any other part of me.
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I personally try to limit the amount of my body that touches other people’s pee
I’d bet there’s more pee on the floor than on the toilet seat or any other bathroom surface you may wash with your hands. I do not want my feet encountering that – regardless of whether I’m aware of an open wound (athlete’s foot, verrucas, etc) or not.
Also, you can easily wash your hands; how gymnastic would you have to be to be able to wash your feet in those tiny little sinks?
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Do you wash your shoes in the sink? Do you think twice about touching your shoes later on?
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I definitely never touch the soles of my shoes if I can avoid it.
IME going socks-only is pretty normal on long flights in Asia. The socks might get gross but tbh so does everything else you wear during extended air travel. Jumping to “unhinged” is a choice you can make, though.
Sign me up as unhinged – definitely not doing this in bare feet, but I have absolutely walked up and down an airplane aisle in my sock feet. Socks are washable…
100% this. How many gas stations have rats? A fair number, I would argue. I want no part of that being near my feet, and I’m sure that any business owner wants no part of the liability of bare feet in their establishment regardless.
I’m not going to say there’s no risk with being shoeless, but I do think part of being in a culture where a thing is Not Normal is that the sense of risk tends to be exaggerated by people who don’t have experience with the thing.
It’s unlikely that feet would smell in a shoes off culture. It’s enclosure within the shoes that make them smell.
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Ok but there’s a difference between a shoes off culture and normalising people who don’t want to wear shoes in the work place, not wear shoes in a shoes on culture.
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Ok, but “go without in most settings” would be a shoes off culture.
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No, they said people who don’t want to wear shoes. Not everyone.
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Those people who don’t want to wear shoes and rarely wear them are unlikely to have bad-smelling feet since, as others have pointed out, it’s being in the shoes that cause feet to sweat and stink.
They’re asking for “shoes off in most settings” to be accepted, not mandated or expected. Some people would choose to wear shoes, either because they like the appearance or for medical reasons (I have a foot condition that means it’s painful to walk more than a few steps barefoot).
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The hygiene issue is a bit of a red herring tbh — what’s more at stake is the OP’s safety when it comes to dangers around her particular workplace.
I don’t care about how your feet smell unless you’re sticking your feet in my face on an aeroplane. I do care if you raise a lawsuit against the company and find out you’re actually liable because you weren’t wearing proper shoes to protect you from the hazards around a semi-industrial workplace such as a petrol station.
People wear sandals in public all the time, which would surely allow any odors to waft around pretty freely.
Feet only smell when they do because of sweat, mainly from being contained in socks and shoes though. I wfh so pretty much never wear shoes for long periods routinely (and in warm weather don’t often wear closed shoes because I have no reason to wear them most places I wear shoes) and my feet don’t smell. When I wore shoes, they sometimes might if I had been sweating/warm and other sweaty areas smelled (bra/chest is another bad area perhaps—underarms are usually fixed by deodorant but they don’t routinely make that for other sweat regions). But if I don’t sweat much, and I don’t close off my feet in shoes that don’t get washed often, there’s no reason they smell. Feet don’t inherently smell more than other parts of the body.
Maybe, but not in a setting with moving vehicles and flammable liquids and gases.
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I doubt there are vehicles and flames regularly driving through the store itself. I still think shoes should be warm but OP isn’t working in a garage.
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As an aside, the number of times that a vehicle has driven through a gas/service station around here (midwest USA) and hits the news is a number greater than 1 a year at least.
Flames, I can count on a single hand.
Would I want to be barefoot in a store/location that I’m not responsible for the cleanliness of that is also open to the general public? Not really. Would I perhaps be barefoot or sock-footed behind a counter that is closed off and that I can indeed keep somewhat clean? (Well, my shoes are currently off under my desk and there’s a modesty panel so….)
Yeah, I’m kind of surprised at the NO WAY here. I would agree that walking around a shop or a forecourt in bare feet isn’t a great idea, but the idea that the couple of seconds it would take to slip sandals or trainers back on under your desk is going to be a safety issue is wild to me. That definitely feels like a post-hoc justification for “it feels icky/shameful” to me.
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No, it really isn’t.
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oh I’m glad we cleared that up
Completely agree. You’re not spreading any more diseases barefoot than you are in shoes, particularly in a culture where you wear your shoes into your home. In most settings, you’re not in any more danger barefoot than you are in slip-on sandals. (Sure, broken glass could be a hazard, but if she was wearing flip flops most people wouldn’t think twice, and they’re a serious tripping/slipping hazard if she needed to jump up and run.)
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Why do health codes require shoes in restaurants, then?
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Slip-and-fall hazard; shoes provide extra traction in circumstances where the floor may be greasy or wet.
It would be a safety issue in a place where you might need to deal with emergencies. No-one is being judgemental here — just pragmatic.
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Place where you need to deal with emergencies is like the emergency room, not a gas station.
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Yeah, I’m struggling to reconcile “must be able to jump to deal with emergencies at a moment’s notice” with “fine to play on your phone”. Those sound like two different places to me!
I think a reasonable guideline would be that IF closed toe or securely fastened shoes are required, don’t take them off. But if sandals, flipflops and slip-ons are fine, this is not a safety issue.
I agree that it wouldn’t be an issue in an office setting- I’ve kicked off my shoes under my desk plenty of times.
Working in a gas station may be different. It’s probably a closed-toe environment (if they sell food or as a safety concern for regularly going around gas/other car stuff as part of the regular duties). And it’s likely a workplace that requires non-slip shoes (this is a common requirement in food service and other places where there’s a higher likelihood of liquids being on the floor). And the non-slip shoes I’ve had have all been lace-up and not meant to quickly slip on and off (presumably because if you are working in a potentially slippery environment, they don’t want you slipping out of your shoes).
It’s different for a customer who will quickly be in and out than for an employee who is there for an 8+hour shift.
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Yeah, I’m not sure about the hygiene arguments (and to be honest, sort of hoping what diseases other than athletes foot are a risk will be discussed here, because I’ve always wondered). That being said, I do think a gas station is going to have a higher risk of slippery spills, broken glass and even fire than a typical office or even a clothing store. That’s where I see the issues. If the pump’s on fire, you don’t want to be searching for your shoes.
Agreed. There’s so many potential safety issues at a gas station that wouldn’t be present at other retail roles, like gas spills and fires. Also this might be regional but anywhere I’ve ever lived gas stations were frequent robbery targets, especially when there was only one person working. I’m glad LW is comfortable at work, but I think more comfy shoes are the solution before they move to taking them off.
Yup this is also the sense that I’m getting. I guess it would be one thing to say “keep in mind these health risks” but the reaction here seems out of proportion.
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Accidents happen very quickly and they don’t give advanced warning. There are so many films and documentaries out there of people being inattentive and unprepared and things going disastrously wrong as a result. The laws regarding safety in hazardous jobs are written in blood, but it’s not just the employer’s responsibility to keep their workers safe — it’s the workers’ themselves. (I don’t know about OSHA etc but here in the UK it’s explicitly in law that employees have the same responsibility as an employer does, because the employee is a human being, not a robot, and needs to follow protocols to ensure their employers’ efforts are successful. OP needs to keep her shoes on because she’s working in a dangerous area, and if something happens to her and she wasn’t prepared to dash out the door, she’s toast.)
At the end of the day, everyone here is united in believing employers should have good safety practices and supply PPE and so on. But all that goes out the window if the employee doesn’t accept responsibility for behaving safely themselves.
I agree- I wouldn’t go without shoes in places where it would be an obvious safety hazard (either for my own feet or others) or in planes or the like (lack of ventilation, small space, etc) but if you’re in a setting where your feet aren’t on display and it’s more comfortable, knock yourself out. Maybe “gas station attendant” means something different in different places, but in my neck of the woods, a lot of gas station attendants are people who stand behind a counter and ring something up- they’re not going out to pump gas or take care of cars; there isn’t a lot of food to worry about; etc. As long as they put their shoes on to go out from behind the counter, it should be fine.
When I worked in retail, I wouldn’t have gone barefoot or just in socks because that WAS a safety hazard and I was in front of the public all day. (Plus, I’m sure my feet would have hurt like the dickens after all that walking around and climbing ladders.) Once I got to offices and not in a public setting, it was pretty easy to wear slip ons, then just take them off under my desk and put them back on when up and walking around. The president of our non-profit used to just go around the office in her pantyhose, no shoes.
People are really weirded out by feet and potential bacteria on them. I’m WAY more worried about all the stuff people have touched with their hands than I am about potentially catching something from someone’s feet.
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A petrol station is not an office, though. Plenty of hazards around.
I’m WAY more worried about all the stuff people have touched with their hands than I am about potentially catching something from someone’s feet.
It depends how clean the foot is. In cultures where shoes are prevalent, I agree. Feet stay in socks most of the day with limited exposure, while hands touch EVERYTHING. But when someone is going around barefoot all the time, those feet are literally touching stuff with every step. Which can be fine if you are in a heavily cleaned environment (like an office building) or even in certain outdoor settings (like lawns), but if you are regularly walking barefoot through your entire daily routine, your feet are picking a lot of stuff up. It gets nasty. Dust and dirt, smushed bugs, if you are near a roadway a chance of residual motor oil, small bits of dog or bird crap, anything that gets dropped on the ground, etc. At least you wash your hands regularly (or should), but feet get washed only occasionally. That’s why it’s such a big deal when there’s feet washing in Bible stories- feet back in the day got super dusty and gross from the elements and general usage.
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I mean… shoes pick up all the same things that feet do, and I’m sure most people wash their feet far more often than they do their shoes.
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+1 Plus sooooo many people walk around with shoes on in their own homes, which defeats the purpose of actually caring about germs.
Agreed, as someone who takes her shoes off at her desk, but this feels like a “lab” setting where shoes are required for safety.
LW3: every time a customer comes up to Martha and she ignores them, call her out on it. “Martha, could you help this person, please?” Shame her into doing her job. I’m sure you’ll be in the middle of helping someone else most of the times this happens.
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As soon as a customer comes into view, I’d alert Martha politely and expect her to put her phone down and help them. If she doesn’t do this, you have strong grounds for either the wider conversation or going to your boss.
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+1
If Martha is that dedicated to playing with her phone, asking her to help customers may actually cause her to understand that perhaps this job is not for her.
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To be fair few jobs will employ someone to sit there on their phone. (I say few, because my last job was like that towards the end, but that was precisely the reason I was desperate to get something else.)
It would also depends on how many times OP needs to do this. I would imagine after a while to sound like “Martha, would you mind putting down your phone and do your job?”
I’m picking up some resistance on OP’s part along the lines of “why do I have to tell Martha how to do the obvious?” I think OP needs to conquer that, but I wonder whether they would choose a small correction each and every time, or one big conversation where they give a one and done speech about her needing to put the phone down and help more. The smaller correction seems easier to say, and may even be what Martha is expecting: “No need to be on constant alert, people will tell me if someone needs help”.
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It’s not OP’s job to tell Martha to do her job, but if OP wants Martha to do her job, then OP needs to say something. Sometimes what our job is doesn’t neatly align with what we do to make sure the job gets done.
The only way out of this situation is to say something (ah, the joys of communication). I agree with porridge fan: a simple “Martha, you’ve got a customer” is well called for. If OP starts doing that, it’s possible that Martha will get more used to being interrupted and will start interrupting herself to do work (I’ve seen this happen), or Martha will get more resistant and OP can go to the boss and say “hey, I’ve tried to speak up and Martha snapped at me in front of a customer. How should I handle this?”
Bonus: using Martha’s name to get her attention will let the customer know who to complain about later.
As described I think it could be a both situation. Martha is confused why LW is doing extra work instead of asking for her help, but she’s not paying attention enough to put down the phone when a customer is standing directly in front of her. Have the big conversation about what needs to change, but also the small in the moment “heads up” conversations until she is aware of her surroundings to notice a person standing at her desk. It will probably be annoying and I get if LW doesn’t want to take on this extra communicating, but Martha sounds oblivious enough that this might be needed if LW wants Martha to start being as responsive as LW and the other coworker.
I’d have a conversation with Martha – separate from when customers are there – to tell her that her constant being on her phone is a problem. I think the OP has grounds to do so, based on Martha suggesting that they should be telling her what to do. It’s not the OP’s job to do that – and I would make that quite clear. However, since Martha opened the door and the manager isn’t around to provide more direct oversight, I think the OP and the other colleague can push back to let Martha know she’s not being a good team member in this regard.
After another couple weeks, in which Martha has been given a chance to do her job, the OP can decide whether peer leadership has been enough, or if the issue needs to be escalated to their manager.
On the plus side, OP – just dealing with this issue will give you some peer leadership experience. Might come in handy in interviews in future, when you’re asked questions about your readiness for supervisory roles. Handling these kinds of situations appropriately is a good thing.
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I was leaning this way, too. As you noted, Martha opened the door to the conversation. There are really two parts of this I’d lean heavily on, too. First, alerting a coworker that a customer needs help is one thing if they’re in the midst of filing a stack of papers or in the zone reading a spreadsheet. It is something different when you’re having to pull them away from a game on their phone or a personal phone call. Second, if a customer walks up and Martha is obviously very distracted by something on her phone, alerting her in the moment puts a very negative spotlight on her actively not focusing on work. I’m sure she wouldn’t want that kind of focus.
I think I’d move the ball forward quickly, too. While the manager isn’t around often, if you have the conversation and have to alert Martha more than once or twice because she’s distracted by personal things, the manager needs to know. You’re in a position where you can be a leader, but someone else may need to solve this if your conversation isn’t taken seriously.
I agree – LW doesn’t like confrontation but it’s not confrontational to just say Martha’s name to get her attention. (I bet they don’t even need to explicitly say “can you help this person,” just literally say “Martha” and nod at the client.) Of course LW shouldn’t have to do that, but it’s easy and non-confrontational and has pretty good odds of working.
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Agree- asking for assistance or giving a head’s up isn’t confrontational. “Martha, you’ve got a customer” in a cheery tone isn’t confrontational in any way- I’ve been in so many environments where we’ve done this, and it’s never been an issue!
This. It’s the perfect opportunity. The other is when Martha asks why you haven’t asked her to help! You could say, “You’re often on your phone or making personal calls. Since you asked, yes, we do need you to be more available so we aren’t taking on most of the work.”
This is why most places involved in customer service don’t allow phones on the floor; Martha — she is the reason. The two other people need to get aggressive about this. ‘Martha you need to get off the phone and help customers; it is unwelcoming to hvae your head buried in your phone when customers come up and you are dumping all the work on us.’
THEN with the next customer, as he approaches, say ‘Martha here comes a customer can you put that down and great him and handle his request.’ And do that repeatedly all day. Don’t wait till the customer is standing there. Do it as they approach.
This is a total management fail but since your manager doesn’t manage, it won’t change if you don’t consistently work with the other staff person to make sure Martha steps up.
And yeah. If this doesn’t turn things around then sit down with your manager who should be managing and should be barring Martha from having her phone on the floor. Know that a weak manager like this will probably ban phones for everyone though.
OP1 (Carl gave the impression that he was the product portfolio manager):
Engineers (I’m in software, but it’s more universal) are often highly attuned to concepts of ownership and origination of ideas. OP1 seems to think it’s more than just professional pride in all the successful products he’s contributed to, as he also included a bunch of text talking about all the things he’d designed. CAD isn’t just data entry but it isn’t design engineering so I think there is a bit of extra credit being taken here.
The good thing in this situation though is that it’s internal, so most people will already know what his role was. And he’s retiring, so it’s not like he is using it to get a leg up in a job search (although look out for him coming back to the industry as a ‘consultant’ in the future…). So I don’t think there’s any action to be taken here.
I wouldn’t call off the retirement party if this was the only incident, but it would be harder to celebrate the career of someone who’d constantly taken credit for other people’s achievements. Which is it? That will tell you what to do.
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Does the OP even have the standing to call off the retirement party?
Maybe, instead of saying this is something “engineers” do this is a great time to say…”now that we know better we can do better and wow this is really cruel.”
This is helpful insight – the post did seem quite similar to conversations I’ve had with engineers.
But yes, as long as no one is expected to directly affirm Carl’s claims, the right thing to do, even amongst engineers, is to say, “aww bless”. and join in celebrating Carl’s retirement.
Maybe this is the case.
But I’ve spent a lot of time with para-professionals (specifically paralegals and legal assistants) and can’t count the times they’ve pointed out critical errors that lawyers had made and suggested solutions. Carl, as an experienced draftsman, may also have done the same and, again, his job title shouldn’t be the basis of thinking that he’s so lowly he couldn’t have suggested — based on his experience — solutions to problems that engineers overlooked. Again, I’ve worked enough with puffed up professionals who think they’re they main event when it takes a team to accomplish solutions.
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Not to mention all the uncredited work those professionals often have to do to make those whose names go on the project think a correction was their idea in order to get them to make it without setting off overinflated egos and short tempers. Wouldn’t surprise me if Carl’s had to do a bit of that as well.
I work in structural engineering. It seems to me that applying that logic our whole company would not be able to claim almost all of our projects as achievements, because usually someone else does the design, like the architects mostly.
Of course there are different levels of contributions to every project, but usually all of them are essential to ultimate success.
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And the actual workers are absolutely needed and experienced electricians, builders and welders are worth their weight in gold. I am working in industrial automation and absolutely nothing would get done without them.
Sure, I do the planning for my part, but thats a small part imo. A paper producition line(and similar concepts) is a huge team effort. Anyone seeing itself as highty and mighty since they “do the meaningful task” is an idiot.
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Same goes for making products like in the letter. The engineers are the ones planning and figuring solutions. Who are the ones actually applying them and telling them if the solutions do not work?
It’s similar here. I work in an industry where a lot comes down to skills of production staff and none of the ideas from product development could be realised without this highly specialised work. The development engineers rightfully(!) have their bit of ego, but nobody of them would claim responsibility for a product the way LW did. It is absolutely fascinating to read.
The D in CAD stands for design. Someone who used CAD software to contribute to a product has, by definition, designed it.
“CAD isn’t just data entry but it isn’t design engineering ”
As someone who has spent 25+ years as an engineer – CAD is quite often design engineering.
Software engineering doesn’t really provide you much more insight here than other industries outside of engineering. You’re not producing signed and sealed plans. As someone who is an engineer who does produce plans, I think LW1 and their colleagues are treating their retiring colleague very poorly. Drafters (and good ones) are a dying breed. If this is the kind of company where his work is entirely at the direction of other engineers, they likely cannot produce their own drawings or cannot produce the quality that he does. The fact that they felt like they could pass the email around and laugh at him behind his back betrays some very outdated attitudes about a hierarchy in an engineering workplace. They need him to be successful and don’t get that.
My firm doesn’t have many pure drafters anymore because of how few and far between they are in the industry as a whole.(i.e., Im an engineer who can manage a project, design, can actually produce my own sheets so know how how much skill/attention to detail drafting takes and would love to hire someone like this guy). If I saw an internal email from a drafter talking about all the projects he touched, I would not think that he was pretending to be a project manager or taking credit for other peoples work. At all. I would think that he was feeling proud of his contributions over the course of his career which would be totally appropriate, and likely, well-deserved.
Canadians do tend to take their shoes off entering houses, but I would never take my shoes off at the salon! All that hair in my socks! And my health providers all have a pile of crocs at the door to substitute for outside shoes.
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(Nesting fail sorry!)
I am Australian, we would regularly go into a servo (gas station) barefoot, but I would never want or expect to see the actual worker barefoot.
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As an Australian, I don’t even agree with the first half of your sentence. I RARELY see people at the servo in bare feet unless it is a servo extremely close to the beach
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Yeah I’m thinking holiday beach town servo. As a kid I used to spend the Christmas holidays at Merimbula and there was nary a shoe in sight.
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I wouldn’t say thats the regular way people get petrol though? That’s like saying Australians regularly go to woollies in bathers because people at the beach want an icy pole.
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I understand all these words individually but … :-D
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If I plug this into Google Translate for Australian to Canadian…?
Haha for translation purposes
Petrol is… I think Americans call it gas
Woollies is short for woolworths which is a super market chain
Bathers is Victorian for swimsuit
And icy pole, I don’t know if there’s another word for it
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Thank you for the English-to-English translation here!
From googling, it looks like an icy pole is what I (a US-ian) would call a popsicle or freeze pop.
Googling Icy Pole yielded images of what Americans call a popsicle.
Popsicle.
Long frozen thing in a plastic packet which is flat once it’s empty? I’d call it an ice pole, but I think I recently learnt that there’s an English English name that I’ve forgotten again…
Mr Freeze or freeze pops if they’re the long thin super cheap kind in a plastic wrapper. But if they’re on a stick they’re ice lollies.
Thank you! I speak several types of English, but I’m weak in Australian :)
Um, they want a what now?
Are those Crocs sanitized every time they’re used or only used by people wearing socks? If not, I’d rather just keep my actual shoes on if I’m not wearing socks. People could be coming to the doctor for foot fungus for all I know.
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Yeah, I was thinking that too. From a sanitary/germ-avoiding perspective, I’d much rather be barefoot than have my feet jammed for several minutes into shoes that had been worn by who knows how many people.
My shoes tend to be expensive and hard to find and I don’t like the idea of leaving them lying around unattended.
LW2 – don’t gas stations usually have cameras behind the counter, so your employer would be able to see you taking your shoes off? From an employer’s point of view that’s a serious safety breach that they would have to address.
Also, I would not put my bare feet on a gas station floor.
Just get some comfy shoes.
#4, I have been there, this summer has also been hard for me as far as externs and new assistants and new technicians. Can you do some procedures in a separate room with a door that shuts with a trusted assistant, so you can remove some pressure of being ‘on’ all the time? I also ask people to leave the room if I am doing something that requires a lot of concentration.
I would also put this receptionist to work in the back if all of her work is done up front. We always have laundry to do, exam tables to clean, mopping and scrubbing to be done. It’s not just fun playtime back here. To be fair, I am known as a hard-ass by the newer and more sensitive assistants.
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What do you do?
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My guess is that LW4 and Kwsni are both veterinarians, as am I. Receptionists who would rather hang out in the treatment area and watch the “fun” have been a pet peeve of mine for years.
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(Oops, forgot to fix my username from the other day.)
Bonus point for the use of “pet peeve” here.
I like the idea of assigning the receptionist other tasks, but I think it could be best to say “hey, I’m a little peopled out from all the interns, and I don’t want to be watched this time. Thanks for understanding.” If you want, you can add “I’ll let you know when I’m ready for an audience again!” then let the receptionist know when you don’t mind having her watch.
LW2, while I hope you have already considered this and it isn’t at play, if you haven’t, you should probably think about whether your gas station has a “no shoes, no shirt, no service” policy. I have definitely seen such policies at gas stations, and if you have one at yours it’s not going to be a good look if customers see you without shoes. Also, while this isn’t my area of expertise, I could also see you going shoeless being a health and safety violation if the policy is in place because it’s legally mandated (e.g. for food service reasons).
#1: You guys sound really unkind and unreasonable.
First, are you only proud of things that your company has employed you to do that were 100% your own work with zero input from anyone else? Writing your resume must be a nightmare if so. It doesn’t sound like Carl is claiming he made this stuff all alone, just that he’s really proud to have worked on these products and done a good job of his part.
Second, retirement announcements can be kinda hokey. I probably wouldn’t put a photo in mine, but that doesn’t mean it’s an outrageous thing to do. It’s an opportunity for someone to reflect on and sum up their entire career. You only get one shot at this and it’s understandable that you’d want to make the most of it! It’s like retirement speeches that thank everyone they’ve ever met and their dog. It’s expected in that situation, whereas if he sent that email on a random Tuesday it would be a bit weird.
So what can you do? Well, start with reframing it in your head. “It’s sweet that Carl is so proud of his accomplishments. I hope he has a happy retirement.”
Then reframe to your colleagues. “You know, guys, it might have come across a little weird but you only retire once, right? He’s obviously enjoyed his time at our company. I think we should give him a good sendoff and leave the email alone from now on.”
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Well said.
I’m going to add it’s highly unlikely that Carl was trying to take sole ownership considering that he sent it to people who also were part of the products.
40+ years from now when I retire, perhaps the photo / video montage will be replaced by a virtual reality highlight reel. If that happens, I’ll remember how off put I was from letter writer #1.
LW1 you and your colleagues come across as incredibly immature based on your letter. Even if Carl were taking sole credit for these products – and it really doesn’t sound like he was – then surely you could just shrug your shoulders, give him his retirement party, and move on. All this sniggering behind his back and asking ‘how should we react’ is high school behaviour.
Also, I’m admittedly not familiar with whatever field you work in, but working out glitches and changes that needed to be made for the designs sounds like the sort of thing you could refer to as ‘integral design accomplishments’, especially in a retirement email where you’re looking back on your career with a rosy glow. I don’t see how it should affect how you and your colleagues feel about your own work, and since it apparently does, you should look to the reasons why which I’m sure have nothing to do with Carl.
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Yes, and it doesn’t even need to be something that everybody knows of. Years ago I made a little suggestion to school my kids went to, it was implemented and the walk to school became much safer for many children. And I am sure that nobody but maybe a couple people knew that it was *my* idea. I can still be proud of myself!
Yes – I’m a desk editor, which means I project manage a list of books through the editorial process. I don’t write the books, I don’t commission the books, I don’t print the books, but I like to think I’m still a pretty integral part of the process. You wouldn’t get a book from commissioning to printing without my role! And I frequently refer to ‘my books’ when I’m talking about the things I’m working on, and if I was going to an interview I’d absolutely take examples of books I’ve worked on with me. If someone saw that as me trying to ‘take credit for’ the whole process, or somehow trying to push out the author or the commissioning editor, that would strike me as very odd indeed. It’s a collaborative process, and I’m an important part of it. I don’t think there’s any reason for me not to big myself up about that (and I’m British and we’re not great at bigging ourselves up at the best of times!).
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And if you sent our an email at retirement with all the books you worked on in front of you that you were proud of producing, no one is going to assume that means you wrote them all. Lots of people’s work is important to a success.
The LW and their colleagues seem very convinced that he was taking credit for work he did not do. What is written in the letter, however, doesn’t really seem to back that up. Either the LW just left out some very incriminating details or they are being oddly hard on Carl.
Retiring is an emotional event for a lot of people, and I think it’s normal for a person to want to look back on their career with pride. Even if he’s going a little overboard, I would hope they could just cut him some slack. It seems like such a minor misstep, especially if he’s been a good colleague up until now.
LW 1, is this an ongoing thing with Carl? I think we’ve all worked with someone who always had to puff themselves up a bit and it can be tiring.
Second, what’s the culture around departure messages? If everyone else sticks to “So grateful to this amazing team, thank you” Carl’s email seems much weirder.
I agree with the other commenters that you seem to be taking this much more seriously than it merits, but that is probably due to your work culture.
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That’s where I landed. I work with the worst possible version of “Carl” and its exhausting listening to him puff himself all day to those he perceives to be important…
…and then come to one of “his underlings” (he has called us this in public btw) to ask a very basic question about a topic that is IN his job description, right after “Senior”.
Its been an interesting read of the comments; I suspect because I had an interaction with “Senior Llama Herder” immediately upon my arrival this morning, I had a bad taste in my mouth for actual Carl.
LW1, the way that you describe it, Carl does sound like he was pretty integral to the project. And he’s proud of the work he contributed. You claim you’re not interested in mocking him, but you’re also laughing behind his back and won’t throw him a retirement celebration.
Someone is definitely in the wrong here and it’s not Carl the (mere? why so much scorn?) Draftsman.
LW1, given that this e-mail appears to have been sent to people who would have known that Carl did not single-handedly complete all those projects, I am guessing he was not trying to imply that he did (unless of course, his long paragraph included a claim that “I led all the projects in my photo and designed all of these products from scratch” or something like that). Otherwise, I would assume he simply meant to say, “I am really sorry to be leaving after having worked on all these products with the rest of you.” He may not have felt the need to explicitly say this as the e-mail was going to people who already knew.
I definitely wouldn’t take a photo of somebody standing next to nine products as implying he single-handedly developed them all. I would take it as meaning he worked on them or that they are significant to him in some way. I’m guessing there was something in the e-mail that led to the other interpretation because it honestly isn’t an interpretation that would even occur to me.
Personally, I would find seeing a coworker denied a retirement party for something like this (or for pretty much anything short of well, being a workplace bully or something) far more of a morale buster than the e-mail.
The e-mail sounds a little odd but unless it was far ruder than you’ve implied here – “the company couldn’t have survived without my central input into all these products as nobody else had the level of drive and iniative I had” – then I would just take it as an expression of disappointment to be leaving and as indicative of the enthusiasm and pride Carl has in his work and that of the company. I would take that as a positive thing about morale.
LW5, I think the specific issues the PIP was addressing are relevant here too. If they were genuine work tasks that Alex was struggling with and they took advantage of the extra support offered by the PIP, got some training themself, worked on their skills, etc, then I wouldn’t be too worried about their slipping back. In those cases, it would be a situation that they didn’t know how to do something and now they do.
If the PIP was more behaviour related – poor time-keeping, bad attitude, etc – then I would feel that there’s more reason to keep a close eye on things. Things like attention to detail could also fall under this category, although that depends on whether they changed their processes or whether they are just paying particularly close attention now, which could change when they relax.
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In my 47 years of ME Flight Test Engineering (WSU-degreed) employment I have NEVER ever encountered or heard of a “PIP”. Not in CT, OH, AZ, GA, CA, or Berlin (DE). I am uncertain just what is involved. Can/could/would someone explain/describe?
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I never heard of it before I came across this site either, but it seems to be a Performance Improvement Plan and to be something that underperforming employees are placed on to give them the metrics they need to improve if they are to retain their jobs. They generally specify a length of time in which the employee has to show improvement.
A PIP stands for “performance improvement plan.” Ideally a PIP should clearly define what the employee needs to do to improve, have a timeline, and state that the employee will be fired if they fail to make the improvements within the specified timeline. But that’s the ideal state; there are companies that write bad PIPs, with undefined/unclear improvements/timelines/consequences.
Often people start job-searching when they are put on PIPs, so they may quit before the end of the PIP (as LW5 mentioned happened previously). Sometimes people are fired at the end of the PIP if they didn’t make the necessary improvements. Sometimes they do successfully improve!
The scenario LW5 wants to avoid is one where the company/manager is reluctant to fire an employee (for whatever reason), so they let the manager and employee get stuck in a cycle of “the employee improves and the PIP goes away -> the employee starts slacking again -> manager puts the employee on a new PIP -> the employee improves and the PIP goes away -> etc.”
Performance Improvement Plan. https://www.indeed.com/hire/c/info/pip-meaning
Professional Improvement Plan
Essentially a warning/probationary period given to people who aren’t performing their jobs to the required level.
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Oh, and a PIP will include specific, measurable improvements required along with a time frame.
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Well, a *good* one will…
This time, the PIP was for work skills. I am indeed hopeful that Alex will be able to sustain their progress. I was very clear at the outset that my goal with the PIP was improvement and I absolutely did not want them to view it as a tool to push them out. Alex is a good person, very pleasant, beloved by customers, and excellent at part of the job; they were just failing at the other (larger and more important) part of the job. We’d talked about it numerous times in increasing levels of seriousness. I was hoping that this would like a fire under Alex and it seems to have done so.
I’ve seen too many tales of “they’re on their third PIP” here in Alison’s posts and just really don’t want to go down that road myself. Now Alex has made the connections they need and started doing the job I hired them for, I want that to continue. But I also want to be prepared for the end-of-PIP conversation coming up about how things need to continue. A hope for the best, plan for the worst situation.
I really can’t say enough how happy I am that Alex turned it around. I hope they feel like they’re getting the support they need, too. They say they are. We’ll keep meeting and see if that remains true. Wish us luck!
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I absolutely do wish you both luck. Sounds like you’ve both done a great job so far.
It sounds like this is rather different from the cases in the other posts. It sounds like Alex previously couldn’t do stuff and now he can, whereas in the cases of the people on their third PIP who improve as soon as the PIP arrives and then slack off once it is over, most of them always did know what to do; they were simply choosing not to.
And of course, people write in about the difficult cases.
Honestly, you sound like a great manager. Alex is lucky to have you.
LW1, I tend to agree with most of the comments above. Without knowing Carl, I’m guessing that he’s saying ” these are some of the projects that I’m proud to have worked on during my time at the company”. Not taking credit for the entire product, but proud to have been part of the team/process. And certainly not enough to deny him a lunch/function to mark his retirement.
So many products are the sum of the ideas and skills of many people; how can you possibly say that product A is Bob’s “baby” unless Bob himself solely thought up the concept, did all the drawings, and was individually responsible for sole manufacture of the prototypes and final examples.
Also, draftsmen are not uneducated, lesser skilled people – they are highly skilled people, regardless of whether they use an old-fashioned drawing board or the latest version of CAD. They are the people who draw up the blueprints from which the product is manufactured, and those blueprints need to be highly accurate. My father was a design draftsman by trade in the days of the old drawing board (1940’s to 1982), and was required to be accurate to the millimetre (0.03937 of an inch) in tolerance on some of the products he worked on. If he wasn’t, then part X wouldn’t slot into part Y which would affect the functionality of the whole product, and the whole drawing would need to be re-done and part X remanufactured. Like your Carl, he was proud to be associated with the products he’d worked on, and to be part of the team that produced them.
LW1 – I’m going to go a little against the other commenters here and say it really depends on the email. I could see a setting where it was overboard: there is a difference between drafting and design, and it is off to take credit for the latter (in a company wide email). That said – you may be reading too much into it (as others have said) and either way – it’s not a huge deal. It’s unlikely to affect anything going forward. Be miffed in private, but I would suggest to be kind on their way out.
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Good advice.
“either way, it’s not a huge deal”
Yep, this is the crux of the whole thing. Whether Carl is a self-aggrabdising weirdo or not, it just DOESN’T MATTER.
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Generally when someone is retiring I’m willing to let them have all the hagiography they want, because…guess what…they’re retiring!
If you can’t keep your shoed on for your shift, it sounds like you need a new pair of (comfortable) shoes.
Is sending pictures of your so-called accomplishments (or of your real accomplishments) a new thing?
I don’t really mean this as a complaint specific to this letter because it’s a question I see written here reasonably often, but… come on, is anyone actually wondering if this is “a new thing” currently sweeping the nation?
The underlying question here seems more like “is this an obnoxious thing of him to do, or are we being overly bothered” (in other cases, it really seems like “I don’t actually have a question but I wanted to say this.”)
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Agreed! The overuse of this framing, specially when it’s clearly thrown in to make their question sound more like a question rather than a statement, also is a pet peeve of mine.
Yes! People do this with their resume questions all the time “I got an application where they used sparkly unicorn gifs throughout their resume–is this a NEW THING people are doing?” You know the answer is no!
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Yeah, I can understand it when somebody says something like “I recently got four separate applications with sparkly unicorn gifs. Is this a new thing people are doing?” but when it’s a one-off, it seems like a jump. Especially when it’s something rather bizarre, like “I saw a job application that required applicants’ first grade school report. Is this a new thing people are doing? Should I be prepared to root out my first grade report and will it go against me if I can’t find it?”
I do think it makes a bit more sense in this letter since the LW is asking if they are overreacting, so in this case, I took it to mean, “is it normal for people to send photos of products/projects they worked on nowadays or is this something weirdly out of step with norms that justify our being shocked by it?”
I work in a highly collaborative industry, and it’s EXTREMELY COMMON for people to mention projects they worked on when discussing their achievements at a specific job, in a professional bio, etc… even in a list format. There’s never the implication that this person did it on their own even if they aren’t specifically saying that they didn’t… if there’s no other reason to believe that Carl actually IS trying to claim all credit, it seems like he’s just a person retiring who is proud of his work. It’s really really sad that OP & colleagues can’t see that, and that they consider his work so unimportant to the process that they won’t even give him the kindness of allowing him to express his pride? This is a really strange email.
I think your rephrased questions are probably closer to the truth. Even though OP is asking about what their public reaction should be in addition to nixing the retirement party, it feels more like they’re trying to get an etiquette ruling on it.
Ok since letter 1 has officially taken over the comments. OP 4, you sound very angry and a little more than on edge (interns have been gotten rid of). Please speak up about this. Perhaps you have too many interns and temps? I definitely find it hard to fathom EVERYONE needs to watch whatever the hell it is you do? If they do, that sucks but frankly it sounds sucky for everyone else too. At any rate, they aren’t “silently staring at you,” they are watching you perform (brain surgery? Glass blowing?)
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I posted above that I suspect LW4 is a veterinarian. Experienced receptionists don’t really do it, but some of the less-perceptive ones do indeed think our jobs are a live Animal Planet show and they can’t stay away. That combined with interns/new assistants who all want to stare can get quite old.
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It sounds awful.
Of all the bad things you hear about being a vet.. this is somehow WAY up there as ‘top reasons I definitely would never do that job’
There are tons of jobs were visual modelling is helpful. I definitely think you’ve got to ration out how much you do it. It’s essentially teaching, even if you don’t provide a commentary and like being on stage it’s going to be tiring.
1. My fiance is an engineer who works in AutoCAD and Solidworks a lot. When I tell you the biggest smile he had on his face when he saw a trashcan that he helped design in a big box home improvement store, and said, “I designed this!”. Do I think he means he was the only person who worked on it? Absolutely not. He is pretty open about the fact that he was one of many who worked on these projects, but the pride and ownership every time we see something he may have been a part of creating is so nice. Then, he’ll sometimes share stories (that I’ve now heard a few times) about the late hours, the troubleshooting, and the work he did. All of it with pride and a HUGE smile on his face. I’m not sure why you would have an issue with someone being excited and proud of a project they were a part of. Just because they are proud of it, doesn’t diminish the work that others did on it too.
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My husband worked for a summer with a construction crew that built a public transit station. He still gives it a second look when we drive by and will sometimes mention that he built it. Obviously he has no illusions that he built it by himself, but he was a part of it, and it’s cool to see things you were a part of producing.
Shoot, my father was on a road crew during his college summers. One of the roads he *helped* build was near my (maternal) grandmother’s home. We’d drive past the exit, and Mom would say, “There’s Daddy’s road!” But I never imagined him as anything other than one of a dozen hard-hat wearing young men; I knew he didn’t do it all himself.
(Actually, I just thought it was cool, not least because it was proof that my parents were once young.)
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I point out railway lines and railway stations that my grandfather, a labourer, helped build. No one thinks I mean “built by himself”.
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My great-grandfather worked for a railroad as a track maintenance worker. He jokingly gave his job as “shovel operator,” but he didn’t use power shovels, he literally had the job of digging holes by hand. But he was immensely proud of that job.
10000% I work in Pharma. Do I invent the drugs? No. But I have some hand in getting drugs to market and you better believe when I see a commercial on TV for a drug I maybe contributed 2% in getting it to patients that need it, I am super proud.
And it is quite obvious from my resume I didn’t invent the medication.
Ages ago I worked briefly as a lowest of the hierarchy temp worker for a few months. During that time I helped build a structure by… holding the exhaust pipe for the person who was welding. This was almost certainly the smallest contribution possible to this task, esp since I only did it for one day out of the whole construction period. I STILL feel pride every time I see that structure for what I was able to contribute to its construction.
LW1- I once got a retirement email similar to this where someone talked about how proud they were to work with x, a program I created and ran for ten years. My first thought was wait what? Jan didn’t work on this she just used it in the field and made tiny changes to execution why is she taking credit was anything?….and then I took a second (took my head out of my well you know) and said wow I didn’t realize how far reaching this program was and how many people touched it and improved on it and felt proud of that work. Instead of a morale buster I was boosted by the success and reach of it.
I think this is a real opportunity to learn that nobody “owns” the feeling of pride and accomplishment and that these aren’t zero sum. Carl feeling proud of his contribution doesn’t diminish others’ work, it actually elevates it.
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this is such a good way of looking at it! honestly heart warming
Nice framing: sense of pride and accomplishment are not zero sum.
LW2 – I am a barefoot person. I prefer not wearing shoes when that’s an option, and in high school spent every Wednesday evening at my church (Wed. PM meal, church service, & youth group was standard in my area & in my family) running around the paved parking lot and buildings without shoes on. I say all this because I’m finding it hard to imagine a surface more filthy than a gas station and would never even entertain the idea of walking around barefoot. That seems like a really good way to pick up athletes foot or a staph infection. Please just get a cheap pair of flip-flops or slides and switch to those when your feet are feeling confined.
OP#1, This sounds like the positive side of attribution bias. When a team is successful, everyone thinks they contributed more than they actually did. It’s natural and a sign of success.
If you’ve got support staff posing in front of the team successes for photo ops, it means you have a committed team and you were successful. These are good things. Embrace them.
LW1 pretty much sounds like 90% of the engineers I’ve ever worked with.
Elitist nonsense is what it is.
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I agree LW1 is incredibly mean and elitist in this scenario, but can we not typecast?
It’s possible LW1 is correct in their assessment of Carl, but in my experience, it’s common for engineers to think that every non-engineer they work with is a dolt…this could be just another expression of that feeling.
For OP#1, a few things:
1) I work in a field in which there *is* drafting in addition to design work. As a higher-level designer, I sometimes joke that the drafters are the ones who actually work around here; I look cute in meetings and talk a lot. Drafting is as important as engineering – without their contribution there are no plans and, therefore, no product.
2) A good draftsperson, especially one working in a single industry long-term, will learn to understand what they are drafting to the point that they can sometimes be a partner in finding errors and omissions.
3) A complex project has scores of contributers. I work in on buildings and offices. The finished space requires interior designers, plumbers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, acousticians, audiovisual designers, IT designers, security designers, project managers and more. That doesn’t even get us to the point at which we’re ready to start building it! If it’s a big, high profile one everyone feels like they’re part of something special. If at the end of your career you post a photo of yourself in front of a new building nobody is going to think you’re taking credit for building it yourself.
OP4 – You’re obviously upset about this. The time to say something is now. And really it seems as though there are two problems to solve. The first is the interns and assistants. The second is the receptionist.
First, I think when your manager is back, you should mention that you’ve been having a difficult time with the amount of time that you’ve had to focus on having interns and assistants shadow you. While everyone needs to have some observation time to learn, if your work is being slowed down or otherwise affected, maybe there are too many interns and assistants at any given time. The business can be a training ground, but if full time staff is negatively impacted, it will impact outcomes.
Second, I think you can point out to the receptionist that having someone in the room to just observe can negatively impact the work you’re doing. Also are there things that she SHOULD be doing but isn’t because she’s away from her desk? What if someone walks in? What if the phone rings? Is she missing anything because she’s not at her workstation? If so, you can kindly remind her that if she’s away from her desk, there are things that aren’t able to be done. And I think you can fairly and nicely say that while it might seem fun for her to observe, having people in the room observing can make your work more difficult (or time consuming, or whatever fits), which can negatively impact the business.
I know #1 is (rightfully!) getting a lot of attention, but I want to give kudos to LW #5 for guiding their employee through a PIP and seeming to really care about their employee’s success! Also kudos to the employee for improving. I hope it’s the last PIP for them!
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Agreed.
Warning: removing your shoes causes meetings!
In my old job I swear that every time I took my shoes off at my desk something (ad-hoc meeting, someone across the room needing assistance, call from upstairs requesting I help with something… whatever) would suddenly pop up.
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I would love to say correlation differs from causation, but I have also noticed this phenomenon .
Are you telling me that this “Carl” (notice how even his name isn’t real) a lowly draftsman..a DRAFTSMAN for god’s sake…. was actually trying to take credit for work that engineers and product managers did?? As if they are equals??
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Uh, Carl is a real name and it’s pretty common for letter writers to give fake names to protect people’s privacy. I mean, otherwise it’s a massive coincidence how many offices have a Buffy AND a Willow, a Fergus AND a Wakeen, a Cersei AND a Daenerys.
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I think Apex Mountain’s comment was sarcasm. I think.
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I agree, but that part’s not really landing.
Okay, to be fair, most of the names mentioned on here are not the people’s real names because of anonymity. But this letter would be so much meaner if OP had used Carl’s real name, so thank goodness they didn’t!
Whatever his name is, he deserves his retirement party!
OP 1 – Im not so sure you do really believe it team work. If you did you would value everyone’s contributions to the team equally because everyone is important to make it work. Instead you spent a lot of words trying to explain how Carl is so not important and just did barely anything.
The guy is retiring after a successful career and your primary concern is not congratulating him and thanking him for his work on the TEAM you say you value, but rather being indignant that he doesn’t deserve to take a photo with an end product he contributed to and is proud of.
You need to reevaluate what team work actually means as well as examine your attitude that comes across as there being people below yourself and others. Its not a good look.
That first letter makes me so sad–it’s so elitist and condescending. I wish we had more Carls in the world, who see how their contribution fits into the overall work of the organization–and who are proud of it. I hope the LW digs deep and sees how their attitude needs some changing…
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It’s just plain mean.
Letter 3 — When you see a customer approach Martha’s seat, just loudly say to Martha, “Martha, you have a customer,” instead of jumping in to help the person yourself. Since she is not paying attention, alert her to do her job.
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This was my thought too—and LW could even let her know they’re going to do that going forward so (ideally) Martha doesn’t come back at them with something unprofessional in front of the visitor.
LW3: someone needs to have the conversation with Martha that part of her job is noticing when there are people waiting to be helped. It can be you, or you can try to bring your boss in, but probably it will be most effective if you raise it with her directly first.
“Martha, oftentimes there are people waiting to be helped when you are available since you aren’t working on other work tasks. Other Coworker and I have been the ones to notice them and start working with them. I don’t think it’s fair for us to always be the ones paying attention and then asking for your attention specifically, when it’s part of the job to be ready at any moment. Can you figure out another way to pass the downtime that will still allow you to notice people approaching you, without needing us to flag it for you?”
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For me, the more shocking detail is that she doesn’t hear the phone ringing either!
#5: I think it helps to know why Alex was put on a PIP. If it was because they were struggling to do the job, then I think you should be relatively comfortable that they can be successful going forward. I also think that what you learned about your employee during the PIP can help ensure that this doesn’t happen again because you’ll know more about how to make sure they understand what they need to do.
If it’s because they simply weren’t working forty hours a week or were making simple mistakes or were showing inattention to detail then that’s different. You don’t get multiple chances to make up things like that.
I do think Alison made a great point when she recommended this line “But based on how well you’ve done the last X weeks, I’m confident that you can do that.”.
When someone goes on a PIP, there’s at least a question about whether they’re able to perform at the appropriate level. In this case, both you and the employee know that it’s possible. Now it’s just a question of whether they will. At least that makes this situation easier than being on a PIP for the first time.
Letter 2 – You are at work. You need to be prepared for emergencies and stopping to have to put your shoes on is not appropriate. Someone slips and falls? Oh wait until I get my shoes on. Someone drives off with a gas hose still in the car? Gotta go put my shoes on before dealing with it. Also, if a customer comes in and asks for assistance, it’s really unprofessional for them to wait to watch you put your shoes on. Are you wearing shoes that you can slip in and out of without touching? If you have to use your hands, I don’t want to see you putting your hands on your feet and shoes and then handling my things without washing your hands first. You are at work, stay appropriately dressed while there.
#3 Martha: I ran into this all the time with coworkers when I worked a register. When I was finally promoted to supervisor I told another cashier she needed to be facing front greeting customers so she could take her fair share of work. She went over my head to our grand boss/HR (same person) to complain about my words and tone of voice.
Grandboss/HR called me in and gave me a lecture. I had a lot of righteous anger about being the one reprimanded for trying to get a slacker to do her work until G/HR gave me an example of what works for her in a similar situation. She said to have a soothing/apologetic tone of voice and phrase it as “could you help me out with something? I’m feeling overwhelmed and it would really help me out if you would be more available to customers by putting your phone down and being proactive about greeting them.”
I’m by nature kind of a prickly person and I have issues with resentment and holding grudges so this didn’t really come naturally to me but the more I tried to really put myself in that kind of headspace before making a request of the cashiers on my shift, the better it went.
It helped me that I made friends with an older supervisor who was tough as nails and had a delightfully sardonic sense of humor, and she had such a soothing zen demeanor when working with difficult people. I figured if she could do it, so could I.
Does this work on everybody? No. But it’s a good first try for most people. Most people want to think of themselves as helpers, not slackers, and you accomplish more by working with that instinct. It never really helps anything to make people defensive, even if you are totally in the right. Good luck and I hope this works for you!
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I would absolutely die of cringe if I had to talk to a coworker like that “oh, please, kind lady, could you possibly consider doing your job so I don’t have to do it also?” UGH NO. Grown people should not have to be coddled like that. Why should I have to claim to be overwhelmed and beg for “help”? I’m glad it worked for you but I could never.
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I’m with you. It doesn’t help to be rude, but there is nothing wrong with a supervisor saying, “Please manage the register and don’t use your phone unless it’s an emergency.”
Yeah, this is not actually a good example. Your G/HR was conflict avoidant and taught you the same. There is nothing mean or wrong about saying, “You cannot be on your phone while you are working the register.” You didn’t need to be mad about it once you had the power to change things, but you were in the right.
I think “sustain” is the perfect work to use with the employee who has successfully turned their performance around. We’ve had several letters about people improving, then slipping back into old habits. Much better to make it clear at the outset that they have reached expectations and need to continue to do so.
Good luck!
Is the shoes thing related to not being allowed to sit down at work?
We had a drafter that worked with us for years, who used to refer to himself as an engineer (he wasn’t). Because of his experience, he had more responsibility than the average drafter. Because of his experience, he used to complain about how the engineers did things and claimed he could do their jobs better, even though he had no training in the analyses they did or the software they used. However, despite this grating conflict, he was an integral part of our organization.
Then one day he was gone and the office was thrown into chaos. Engineers were asking admins for help using drafting software. No one knew which were the latest versions of certain drafting files. More importantly, his big booming personality would never be in our office again.
One of the biggest things I’ve learned over time is that it all is a team effort. No one person can do it alone. Carl was part of OP’s team. As Carl voluntarily walks out the door for the last time, let him revel in his accomplishments there, because without him those accomplishments may not have been as great.
Drafting is a specialized, valuable skill, and I don’t think those products could have been done without Carl’s work. I don’t understand why his contributions are being denigrated.
It’s hurtful to be laughing at him. Let the man retire with a sense of accomplishment.
Two stories I tell my team:
1. President John F. Kennedy visited NASA. During his tour of the facility, he met a janitor in the hallway. The President asked the man what he did for NASA, and he replied, “I’m helping put a man on the moon.”
2. The Pope saw two masons in the quarry and asked them what they are doing. Mason 1 replied, “I’m splitting this rock.” Mason 2 said, “I’m building a cathedral.”
I would have liked having Carl on my team. The others mentioned in this letter.,, probably not so much.
#5 The sword of losing a job is always hanging over everyone’s head all the time and, in a way, all employees are in a perpetual performance improvement plan… just not formally. If I didn’t get slightly better at my job over time, I’d eventually fall behind my peers and industry. So it’s normal that you won’t ease back the expectation on Alex to do his job to the level that it requires, you’re just ending the formal part and maybe there can be a more relaxed aspect of supervision and/or documenting his work. “Great job Alex. You passed the PIP and now I no longer think you need a daily stand-up meeting to keep you on track, so we’re going to go back to the weekly TPS report only.”
LW1
I hope when you get to the end of your career and look back on all the projects you’ve been a part of that your coworkers don’t look down on you the same way you are looking down on Carl.
I’ve worked in support roles my whole life. I can’t imagine a pilot thinking they didn’t need my lowly mechanical skills to keep her airplane from falling out of the sky. You clearly describe your processes as requiring the skills of a draftsman. Yet you go on as if Carl deserves nothing because he had the audacity to share his pride in the projects he’s contributed to over the course of his career.
It doesn’t sound like you appreciate teamwork, in spite of your insisting you do.
Letter #1 – would those projects have succeeded if someone did not do Carl’s job on them? I expect that they would not have been able to be accomplished without him. He was just as essential as any other person who worked on those, and thus he has an equal right to claim responsibility for them. And he obviously did impact the design on those, based on your own words. As a matter of fact, he was responsible to help identify and fix errors that you other engineers made — ” During weekly reviews, and sometimes more often, Carl reported to an assigned engineer and the two of them worked out any possible glitches or changes for design alterations that we other engineers made.”
Yes, he was a partial owner of those products and should be able to look and and point to the impact he had to the company. He is proud of the work he did and it is only right that you all celebrate his vital role in the company that helped all of you also succeed.
For LW #5, two things to suggest:
1 – Think about what is necessary to verify that the employee is continuing to perform at the level you need. Perhaps you need to continue to monitor their work more closely for a time until you can trust them to sustain this performance. Are there structures of communication or review that have been part of the PIP that might be helpful to continue, even in a more scaled back way? Be prepared to tell the employee when you meet with them how you will set objectives and evaluate their performance in the future. What opportunities for future advancement could be open for them?
2 – When you meet with the employee, ask them some open ended questions about their experience going through the PIP. What do they think made the difference for them that they were able to succeed? What do they need to be able to sustain this level of performance? Are there supports you provided for them that would be helpful to continue? What are their primary takeaways from this experience?
LW1: Part of my first job out of college was to learn 3d modeling from the drafters. These people started their careers as true artists who hand drew all artistic representations as well as the manufacturing and production documents. During their careers, the ones I met were those who successfully transitioned to 3d modeling with technology updates significantly altering their work flow every few years.
Carl was clearly not alone in designing these products, but I ask you, LW1, did he create all or most of those 3d models of the products in his retirement announcement? Did he work with the manufacturers to ensure production went as smoothly as possible? If he was the largest contributor to those 3d models, he of course feels like he made valuable, even foundational, work towards them. What is wrong with that kind of buy in? What is wrong with that kind of pride in contributing to a large team effort?
Drafters know they are not at the top of an organization, but they also have real skills that are vital to product development. Areas where engineers are relied on to do the job of drafters can lead to a lot of wasted money in time, effort, and bad parts.
Just wanted to ask, re: LW1–did the letter originally say “mere” draftsman, because a few people have mentioned it, but the letter doesn’t include the word at all. Nor does it downplay anyone’s efforts or suggest that Carl, as a draftsman, didn’t play a role in the work, just that he didn’t own it or drive it.
Lw2, when I worked retail I wore Dansko clogs. I would occasionally pull my feet partway out of them if I was behind the counter with no customers to let my feet breathe, but it would take seconds to pur them back on if needed. My 2 cents is that something similar while sitting at the computer would be fine, but if you have buckles, laces, zippers, etc. that makes it more of a production to take shoes on & off, they should stay on.
Wow. Just wow. What happened to “Be Kind?”
Retirement is a milestone – and a crisis for some. Part of preparing for retirement is looking back at what you have accomplished. Why would you spend so much energy on this, including refusing to throw a retirement party? That rather contradicts the “I believe in teamwork”, right along with ‘so-called accomplishments.” One day, you will be walking this road.
If there is something acutely weird in the content of his e mail, please post it. Because the vibe here is very much that the engineers and you are pulling together into a work bully pack.
Be content with an inward eye roll, combat those who are being snarky – and throw him his party. Please?
LW 1 will show up with cheap ass rolls to Carl’s retirement party