https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/81533472
https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/84292348
https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/84294070
https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/84370990

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It's so Red Hat / IBM can slowly make it so Linux and Free OS's aren't useful on old computers which predate the hardware backdoor era. It's the same reason System D is pushed, it's to obsolete perfectly good, secure computers.

Thankfully BSD people aren't falling for it and nobody is making programs that actually require it. It'll die away eventually outside pseudo-proprietary IBM software
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https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/87102209
https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/88033691
https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/88320285

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Anonymous 10/30/22(Sun)18:45:05 No.89505758▶>>89506636 >>89510694
File: 1642527046207.jpg (618 KB, 827x1169)
618 KB
>>89502059
>>89503211
They literally only admitted that forced vsync was a mistake only when Valve paid them to do so: https://emersion.fr/blog/2022/status-update-45/

I am truly amazed that anyone still takes these buffoons seriously
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 Anonymous 10/31/22(Mon)00:53:15 No.89510240▶>>89514178
Wayland is a mistake. With Xorg you have ONE software project created to implement ONE display server.

With Wayland you now have a bunch os projects creating barely compatible "compositors".

Wayland is made so the big tech could keep the good programmers busy doing the same stuff over and over again
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it honestly wouldn't be schizo to suggest this. a fraction of resources on their part and it costs the collective foss community a decade and a half of wasted development time. microsoft alone did sketchier things than that back in the 90s
https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/90597154
[QRD] https://desuarchive.org/g/thread/87967779/

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There are still some people in denial, but in another 10-20 years, virtually everyone will look back on Wayland with embarrassment wondering how this could have happened. This project has probably held back linux userspace graphics by at least 10 years. Wayland is basically sold as a "lean", "modern" replacement for Xorg without Xorg's technical baggage and a protocol that makes the "right" decisions. The hilarious thing about this is that Wayland's technical core is completely wrong and full of bad decisions. It's not some coincidence that it's taken so long for the thing to even be slightly usable.

>rendering model
Wayland's rendering model is completely broken. How it currently works is that compositors throttle rendering by not sending callbacks to surface that are out of focus. The throttling can indefinitely stall that application's thread until it comes back into view. The problem is that clients have no way of knowing if they hidden or not. What ends up often happening is that certain render loops do clever hacks/workarounds to guess when the surface is hidden or not to avoid this stalling. There was a protocol proposal to fix this, but it got bikeshedded and probably will never be merged. Note that Wayland is literally the only windowing protocol that works like this and everywhere else it's trivial. What Wayland should have done was just send visibility events instead of callbacks and then encourage applications to not draw when the surface is not visible
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>scaling model
Time has proven Wayland's scaling model to be completely wrong. It took 14 years, but upstream is basically admitting this by working on the fractional scale proposal. Restricting the core protocol to only interger scaling is clear madness and in today's world of HIDPI, it's an embarrassing relic. Fractional scaling in compositors currently work by tricking clients to render above the display's resolution and the compositor downscales it after the fact. It's one of the dumbest possible things someone could have come up with. How this should have worked is that applications just mark themselves as "DPI aware" in some way to stop all compositor-side scaling. After that, the compositor just passes some value (could be DPI, a fixed number, whatever) that the application than uses to scale itself properly. Non dpi-aware applications can just be upscaled by the compositor when needed.

>security model
Wayland's security model is another thing they completely messed up. Having more security is nice and all, but you have to make sure it doesn't hurt usability. Unfortunately, Wayland went to the extreme of having security to the point where push to talk can't work (yes really). Wayland advocates will point out that Xorg allows "keylogging" since programs can see key events, but this is a neccesary and useful part of any windowing system. You can see key events in Windows and macOS too. Nobody seriously considers it a "security issue". Providing a way lock it down is sensible, but the default should have been just the same as other OSes and Xorg. The obsession with security is also what lead to embarrassing situations like screen recording not working until pipewire fixed it by using dbus. Decisions like this make writing automation type software that sends key/mouse events pretty much impossible with Wayland. Eventually, people are just going to use evdev and bypass this altogether which negates all this supposed security
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>synchronization model
This one is a bit more obscure, but Wayland's synchronization is outdated as well. In fairness, they started in 2008 so this wasn't clear then, but modern graphics developers all agree that explict synchronization (like Vulkan or Direct3D 12) is the correct way to go. Wayland and Xorg are both implicitly synchronized which essentially means that they depend on APIs executing in a specific certain order (e.g. in Wayland a client renders, sends a surface commit, then after that the compositor does its thing). This scales poorly as clients become more complicated with rendering and leads to a ton of over-synchronization. The correct fix is to use explict synchronization. All the commands are executed as asynchronously as possible with synchronization only happening when strictly necessary. The kernel graphics substack is still playing catch up on this as well, but Android moved SurfaceFlinger to explict synchronization a couple of years ago. Xorg's present extension allows waiting on a CPU fence which is OK but hardly there. For Wayland, is an explicit synchronization protocol that nobody on the Linux desktop actually uses (it's for ChromeOS when it interfaces with Android applications under Wayland) which has some limited support. A correct windowing system needs to be designed from the ground up to support this. Basically like what Android did
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https://www.lainchan.org/%CE%A9/res/63336.html

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Anonymous 07/21/23(Fri)23:35:31 No.94846708▶>>94847660 >>94848279 >>94850209
File: 1689957316841.jpg (395 KB, 1500x1084)
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[GPU] https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/94932665#p94935111

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Anonymous 07/27/23(Thu)01:08:19 No.94961090▶>>94961418
>>94933090
>>94935111
>>94935707

OH but its so much worse than you realize, most wayland compositors that have hardware cursor support have the laggy cursor anyway, this is because they sync the hw cursor plane with the primary graphics plane intentionally, so in effect you get a cursor that is locked with the compositor framerate, This is directly related to the autism that is "every frame is perfect

see here
https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/4763#issuecomment-578462619

>It's working as intended. Atomic updates are required for 'frame perfect' presentation if we're using hardware overlays, and the cursor counts as one. Without it, we can get tearing. It also saves us from some of the nightmare of partial-state updates that are all too easy to get into the the legacy interface.

litterally who gives a flying fuck if the cursor tears, pure autism

This is still hasn't been fixed, and its present on KDE, gnome, sway, and any wlroots based compositor
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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)04:23:37 No.94989571▶>>95003250
Wayland should have been totally abandoned years ago. All active development around it is just sunken cost fallacy at this point. No one actually wants to fix any of Wayland's issues, they want people to use it so their work on it doesn't go to waste.
By the time Wayland actually achieves mass adoption (in the year 2938) it'll be immediately depreciated and replaced with something else
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[Professional] https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/94988212

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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)04:38:12 No.94989924▶>>94991188 >>94991288 >>94997026 >>95003082 >>95004092
File: 1681442087026.png (288 KB, 1500x817)
288 KB
>>94988212 (OP)
That comment, together with pic related sums up an interesting issue
>autists need a way for their application to modify specific screen related things
>Krita needs to be able to fine tune graphic tables, and a different application running at the same time should be able to have a different configuration
>a korean / chink / taiwanese needs to switch between special snowflake inputs, and those can be application specific

Now the wayland devs go:
>NOOO, THE APPLICATIONS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THAT, ITS FOR MUH SECURITY
But the very obvious solution would have been to allow an App to have its own context for specific things. When Krita modifies the pressure curve of a graphic pen, this change can be Krita only. It would not be a security threat.
Instead of working on solutions, the Wayland devs just shut things down.
And this leads to wayland being outdated before its even established
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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)12:07:59 No.94997026▶
>>94989924
this is actually good thing
there are lot of people who use Krita or need CJK input methods, therefore it would be a suicide for major distros to drop X anytime soon

waytards can continue to struggle with their broken desktop while X.chads keep using solution that simply works
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https://lobste.rs/s/acepul/wayland_is_pretty_good_actually#c_bzr8nr

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david_chisnall 28 days ago | link
This is a great example of the sort of thing I was complaining about in the Red Hat story: once Red Hat decides that something is The Future(tm), everyone else has to adopt it because they push so many other projects to make it the default. Even Canonical was unable to push Mir in the face of this. This isn’t done by building a consensus around the right approach and then funding engineers to implement it, it’s done by pushing everyone else to adopt whatever Red Hat engineers have decided is the thing to do.

A lot of the push for adoption of Wayland was driven by appeals to authority (‘these people have worked on X11 for 20+ years!’), rather than technical merits. I found a number of these annoying because a lot of the problems with X.org had been fixed by proprietary window servers (including some proprietary X forks!) and the people still working on X.org were the people that hadn’t fixed any of them. As with systemd, a lot of the arguments were of the form:

A has a load of problems.
B is not A, and is therefore better.
If you criticise B, you must like A, but we’ve established that A sucks and so your opinion is worthless.
The idea that someone could see a lot of flaws in X11 (or SysV init) but not automatically think that Wayland (or systemd) was the right solution to them was not a permitted opinion. I think we both agree that there are a lot of problems with X11 and that a replacement is long overdue. I won’t reiterate any of that here, because anyone who actually wants to know what’s wrong with X and what needs fixing should just read your Arcan blog (which also explains how to fix them, and even comes with code!) rather than reading things I write here
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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)12:19:10 No.94997144▶>>94999485
File: wayland.png (78 KB, 1459x667)
78 KB
>>94991853
X extensions are created by X.org consortium, X also has a reference implementation that everyone uses, there are no third party extensions

meanwhile core Wayland protocol and "reference implementation" is totally useless since it doesn't support even half of modern use cases, therefore you have tons of unstable and third party extensions that lead to massive fragmentation. For example:
input-method-unstable-v1 is official unstable wayland extension
but wlroots (the third compositor) doesn't support it, instead it created it's own special snowflake extension: input-method-unstable-v2. but the name is wrong and misleading, it's not backward compatible with v1 at all!
the result is that some of the apps will implement v1 and work with KDE but not wlroots, some of the apps will implement v2 and will work with wlroots but not with KDE

as a bonus both of these protocols are WORSE than X solution which is supposed to be "old", "bloated", "hacked together" etc. X solution just works like it has been working for 30 years while Wayland (designed for modern desktops) still doesn't have a half-decent way to switch input methods in 2023!

it's over, Wayland is obsolete, developers aren't interested in improving it and it doesn't have a future
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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)15:33:41 No.94999485▶>>94999707 >>94999906 >>95003789
File: wayland.png (250 KB, 815x909)
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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)15:52:44 No.94999646▶
>>94991853
>Wayland is younger
In 5 years Wayland will be as old as X11 was when X.org was creates.

Wayland is now older than X.org was when Wayland began. Wayland is older than Mir and only a year younger than Android and iOS. All of those had more sane features and worked better all around 5 years after creation.

Wayland will never have feature parity with Windows Vista because its design is ass
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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)16:14:51 No.94999906▶
>>94999485
>stop trying to market it as some kind of inevitable transition
this kind of argument is the easiest way to detect that something fishy is going on: "b-b-b-but X is obsolete, Wayland is the future, it's the only choice, you must upgrade11!!"
in reality we are talking about open-source software, X isn't going away anywhere and if big players try to force Wayland down our throats others will step in and will revitalize X.org development
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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)20:55:35 No.95003789▶>>95003988
>>94999485
It reminds me of getting screen content in a cross compositor way on wayland.. On wlroots its kinda sane, they just ignore much security and allow you to get the buffer directly. Om gnome/kde you have separate interfaces to get a pipewire node. So realistically you need to use the desktop portal api to get the screen buffer. But you have to write around 2000 lines of code for that. In x11, this is just done in 3-4 lines of code, and the x11 version performs better on amd, intel and nvidia
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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)21:10:58 No.95004092▶>>95004781
>>94989924
Wayland is an example of a real-life construction of a security theater
Regress for the sake of imaginary security, which is the ultimate goal of the project
Wayland is a tragicomedy being played out in a physical security theater
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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)21:52:48 No.95004781▶>>95004827
>>95004092
another example is Flatpak/snap which are often shilled together with Wayland: https://flatkill.org/2020/

they provide snakeoil security to non-issue
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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)21:55:39 No.95004827▶
>>95004781
They want to turn Linux into yet another phone OS.
Compiling your own software is for smelly nerds.
Download our apps from our trusted app store.
Everything baby-proofed for even the dumbest of users
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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)21:21:51 No.95004273▶
>>95004130
there was lot of development for X11 in 2000s: multi monitor support, randr, transparency, composition etc.

>I thought the whole idea was everyone could do it, X12 development or an X11 fork should've become a thing by now.
yes but these corpos did their best to discourage it by shilling "wayland is the future, forget about x11" and most normies believed that
only those who dig deeper realize how big mess wayland still is
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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)21:54:56 No.95004812▶
File: 1679758586341.png (210 KB, 1485x550)
210 KB
>>95004433
ok, that's nice... now let me show you a reference implementation, that is done in contradiction to the protocol and breaks it.

How does this happen?
The people who added the text input protocol to Weston are the exact same people who wrote the protocol
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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)21:55:58 No.95004838▶>>95004913
>>95004703
>tearing
how retarted are you?
with Nvidia hardware, enable ForceCompositionPipeline
with AMD/Intel, enable TearFree
that's it, no tearing

input methods, drawing tablets, gamma adjustment etc. aren't exotic things, they are basic stuff which has been working for decades on X11 and other OSes
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Anonymous 07/28/23(Fri)23:06:55 No.95006130▶>>95006238 >>95006936
The number 1 problem with wayland as a protocol, is that it is written and used by people who don't understand what is important and what isn't,they focus on idealist notions like "perfect frames" and " clean implementation" , rather than shipping something actually GOOD, and free of stupidity


chasing things exclusively like that will get you a broken sub par product, which is why it took literally 10+ years to: allow applications to decide to tear, why the latency was so bad for so long, and why compositors sync the cursor with the compositor frame rate, or why the compositor ever drops frames in the first place due to the lack of gpu scheduling priority, why compositors lack 10 bit color support

we're still at the "doesn't match Xorg" phase for all compositors, which is actually insane. It's like they forgot that its supposed to be for a USER INTERFACE.

The only people that seem to know what they are doing is valve ironically, their compositor does exactly what it is meant to do, and doesn't fucking lag the cursor, and doesn't stutter ect.


All I can say, considering the amount of effort expended, You could literally rewrite X from scratch and extend the protocol, and have time left over, and be in a much better place support wise
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https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277

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Anonymous 08/24/23(Thu)23:39:26 No.95578100▶>>95578247 >>95578343
File: Screen Shot 2023-07-21 at(...).png (1.02 MB, 3808x3404)
1.02 MB
>>95577868
deboonked
https://drewdevault.com/2019/02/10/Wayland-misconceptions-debunked.html
>There is an unfortunate GitHub project called “Wayland keylogger” whose mode of operation is using LD_PRELOAD to intercept calls to the libwayland shared library and record keypresses from it. The problem with this “critique” is stated in the README.md file, though most don’t read past the title of the repository. Wayland is only one part of an otherwise secure system. Using LD_PRELOAD is effectively equivalent to rewriting client programs to log keys themselves, and any program which is in a position to do this has already won. If I rephrased this as “Wayland can be keylogged, assuming the attacker can sneak some evil code into your .bashrc”, the obviousness of this truth should become immediately apparent.
>Some people have also told me that they can log keys by opening /dev/input/* files and reading input events. They’re right! Try it yourself: sudo libinput debug-events. The catch should also be immediately obvious: ask yourself why this needs to be run with sudo.
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Anonymous 09/04/23(Mon)17:06:00 No.95792956▶>>95793002 >>95794180
>>95792917
>>95792836
Run any application that does any GPU intensive work and your cursor will lag.
An acknowledged bug.
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Anonymous 09/04/23(Mon)17:09:27 No.95792994▶>>95793060
>>95792836
https://arewewaylandyet.com/
Can't use nvidia with gayland no matter what I do.
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Anonymous 09/04/23(Mon)17:34:32 No.95793256▶>>95793275 >>95793307 >>95793315 >>95793327 >>95793331 >>95793343
File: 1673824991371.png (84 KB, 250x250)
84 KB
wayland """users""":
>wayland is so super smooth and fast and has HDR and proper HiDPI suport for years now, it's amazing!!! >>95792917 >>95792836
wayland developers:
>wayland is extremely laggy under load. Because of the way atomic modesetting works, the cursor updates has to wait when framerates drops and will stutter. The only proper solution would be to change the drm/kms API in the kernel to allow us to flag cursor updates to be applies ASAP. But it's not realistic to get such changes into the kernel or would take years, so we have to find workarounds. Here is how we try to make it better in kwin. The changes will be stable with Plasma 5 which will release sometimes in a year or so, until then wayland will be laggy as hell
https://zamundaaa.github.io/wayland/2023/08/29/getting-rid-of-cursor-stutter.html
>the proposal to support HDR in walyand is in a limbo for years now and will not be ready anytime soon, we do not work on it as long as the proposal isn't accepted. Until then, the only linux system that supports HDR is gamescope on Steam OS 3.5 which runs on XORG and doesn't support wayland.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Gamescope
>fractional scaling for HiDPI displays isn't implemented in GTK yet and is in qt with qt5. So the first proper HiDPI support for wayland is planned with Plasma 5 in a year or so, while GNOME won't have it anytime soon
https://blog.gtk.org/

Why do wayland """users""" lie so much? Your developers are very open about how things are going. It's only the """users""" who lie and claim to have features that they don't have.
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Anonymous 09/04/23(Mon)17:51:36 No.95793434▶
>>95793315
>weston
The broken reference implementation that misses half of the protocols?
Nobody uses this. Even the wayland devs will tell you that you shouldn't use it, but instead use the compositor of a proper DE.
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Anonymous 09/04/23(Mon)17:46:27 No.95793385▶>>95793429 >>95793517
>>95793315
Weston and sway are the compositors with the highest amount of cursor stutter. And they do absolutely nothing to fix it.
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/-/issues/602

So am i getting this right:
None of the people who claim to use wayland here, actually do anything with their system, never have any application that puts it under load and don't have any modern monitors?
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Anonymous 09/04/23(Mon)19:34:40 No.95794598▶
File: 1678077172918.png (283 KB, 597x589)
283 KB
>>95794272
>Game to Kernel: Here, i got all of this to render
>Kernel: oof, that's hard work, might take a while
>Desktop Manager to Kernel: The mouse moved, plz update.
>Kernel: i am currently busy with all that game rendering, i will queue it and do it later

>Why can't they just do it like x11
Because having a smooth cursor is legacy modesetting and deprecated. Why would you give a cursor higher priority than a minecraft frame? You don't need that!
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Anonymous 09/18/23(Mon)11:33:20 No.96068417▶>>96068437
>>96067955 (OP)
Ex-Gentooman here, I've been trying to get into Hyprland lately. I want to like it, I really do... but I just don't have the attention span to bother with configuring every fucking little thing anymore... Is there any way to get all the dipshit little components out of the way that pretty much everyone does the same way anyway? Why do I need to configure a goddamn authentication agent and keyring, like just do it out of the box like every other DE on the planet...
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Anonymous 09/20/23(Wed)07:21:04 No.96105150▶>>96105433 >>96108625 >>96112147 >>96113287
>>96105033 (OP)
> still lacks crucial functionality like color profiling
> is forced by corporate fucks stuck in sunk cost fallacy
I hate the soulless corporations EEEing Linux.
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Anonymous 09/20/23(Wed)11:39:19 No.96108625▶
>>96105150
>15 years old
>still doesn't support color profiles
>protocol MR to support it has been open for 3 years with no sign of it being accepted
>when/if accepted, will still need another year for compositors to implement and roll out the spec
the absolute state
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Anonymous 09/20/23(Wed)10:01:09 No.96107495▶>>96110237 >>96111905
I heard this news earlier today so I spent a few minutes setting up my system to use wayland with gnome.

Issues encountered in 5 mins:
- When clicking on an icon in Gnome's dock, a brief glitch horizontal of pixels was displayed
- When grabbing the "thumb" of the scrollbar in the files app, the entire window shakes up and down
- When using mozzarella foxfire, the window shadow on the right side of the window started bugging out for some reason until i moved the window.

Yeah, sticking with X.
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The MPV developers almost dropped Wayland support entirely because of how retarded Wayland is.
https://dudemanguy.github.io/blog/posts/2022-06-10-wayland-xorg/wayland-xorg.html
The actual solution has always been something like Plan 9 rio
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Most people writing their own compositor will probably just use wlroots as a library nowadays which helps stop the fragmentation. This still doesn't change the fact that there are 4 different Wayland implementations you have to support as a Wayland client though: Mutter, Plasma, wlroots, and Weston. You can omit Weston if you really want since nobody really uses it, but it's still an annoying problem that doesn't exist on Xorg. A random Xorg window manager may not support some particular window hint or extension, but that's just simply the window manager developer not adding a certain feature. It's not the same as the exact same code acting differently everywhere for no real reason. I have encountered this multiple times

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Anonymous 09/20/23(Wed)15:04:44 No.96110938▶>>96112677
>>96109449
It was reverted because wayland exists so they didn't want to bother fixing it. Wayland ruins x11 progress.

Anonymous 09/20/23(Wed)18:01:33 No.96112677▶
>>96110938
I remember reading the issue comments, it basically boiled down to a combination of 'oh well wayland's happening soon tm' like you're saying and 'it used to work and everyone was used to it, why don't we just leave it as it is?'
>>96110217
I just have a normal size 1080p laptop screen and it messed things up for me, and a lot of other people, are you sure we're thinking of the same event? if you aren't on rolling release you may have missed it
fwiw I was ready to do the reconfiguring and get behind doing it the 'right way' but then they reverted and it became a low priority because it was back to how it used to be

genuinely, can anyone explain the practical benefits of wayland in userland to me? if it's better i want to support it but i have heard very little about why it is better even after seeking that information out
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Anonymous 09/20/23(Wed)16:23:58 No.96111615▶>>96111631
>>96111521
> once Wine is finished with native Wayland support.
Wine developer community don't want to. Some fulltime paid external developer is doing *some* work.
Again zero community mind share. Wayland is pushed from the top via proxies like igalia and collabora.
Who finances this shit?

Anonymous 09/20/23(Wed)16:33:03 No.96111706▶
>>96111631
Of course they merge but they think it's a bad idea in general.
That is an external consultant working for Collabora who is not part of the community. Zero community mindshare.
Again, who finances the shit?
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https://desuarchive.org/g/thread/96666734

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Anonymous 11/20/23(Mon)20:13:19 No.97415482▶>>97416647 >>97433943
>>97413053 (OP)
It used to be completely accurate because Wayland's buffer scale property supports integers only. However, Wayland devs have finally relented after years of pressure and introduced the fractional-scale-v1 protocol. It allows fractional values and basically obsoletes the scale value in Wayland's core protocol. So now, whether this picture is accurate or not depends on your Wayland client and whether it supports the new protocol. Qt does, so Qt programs should scale properly, but GTK is known for its shit fractional scaling support so it's probably still doing the thing described in the picture.
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Anonymous 11/20/23(Mon)21:25:46 No.97416647▶>>97419804 >>97420617 >>97433943 >>97445596
P.S. >>97415482
Shit like this is why I call Wayland "instant legacy software". Early on, Wayland devs made several design decisions that are inflexible and unconventional, thinking that they would be able to force the entire Linux ecosystem to comply like they're some kind of off-brand Steve Jobs. That didn't work out. Every major decision they made that's different from the usual way of doing things has turned out to be a bad idea, and now they're stuck shoving complexity into Wayland to work around these decisions. By the time they reach feature parity with X11 and Windows, Wayland will probably have just as much legacy cruft.
They decided that every frame must be perfect, so VSync will be on with no way for the user to turn it off. This proved unacceptable to some gamers for whom every millisecond counts, so Wayland devs had to add a "tearing protocol". They decided to use a compositor-driven render loop instead of what every other graphics stack does, which is an app-driven loop with visibility hints. This made porting programs to Wayland harder and it made media players like mpv work a lot worse. So now everyone is working around this. They decided to prevent programs from knowing their window position in the name of some kind of security theater, and now people are working around that too.
The biggest mistake was the emphasis on logical coordinates instead of physical pixels. Wayland devs treated pixels as a small implementation detail, assuming that if needed, they can just make programs render at a huge UI scale and then rescale the bitmap as needed. Then it turned out that it's only the GNOME and GTK people who don't give a shit about font sharpness or rendering performance. Everyone else wanted direct access to pixels so that they could do stuff like subpixel antialiasing. But the decision to deemphasize pixels was so deeply embedded in Wayland's design that it took years of bikeshedding to move forward. You can find the history on their GitLab.
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Anonymous 11/21/23(Tue)02:49:44 No.97422355▶>>97423774 >>97433862
>>97420617
I wouldn't say "never" - with enough thrust, pigs can fly, and with enough workarounds and extra protocols and corporate support, Wayland can match X11 and Windows' features too. But I think that the amount of wasted effort makes it perhaps the biggest clusterfuck in the history of open source. There was a great opportunity to design a new display server with a better set of abstractions that would cover everyone's use cases. Instead, we got a project that's ran in a way similar to GTK and GNOME: pushing a very specific vision of how the Linux desktop should work and reacting to anything else with "you don't need that, you're wrong for wanting that, WONTFIX". They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into supporting pretty basic stuff, so I simply don't trust them. I'm also not sure that the approach of not having a central display server is even right. Before Wayland, features like monitor brightness and gamma were implemented just once, in X.org, and every desktop environment was able to use them. By interacting with xrandr, you could also create scripts that worked on everything from GNOME to obscure tiling window managers. With Wayland, every compositor needs to implement stuff themselves. And old monitor management scripts not only don't work anymore, but there's no alternative to utilities like xrandr that would make them work. You need to write a KDE version, GNOME version, wlroots version... It's a lot of duplicated effort and a clear step back from interoperability to fragmentation. I think that things would've turned out better if people went with the original plan of making an X12: just take X11 and clean it up by throwing out stuff that's no longer used, extending some numbers to more bits, etc.
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Anonymous Wed 22 Nov 2023 12:09:47 No.97452416 Report
Quoted By: >>97452624 >>97453269
>>97451333
It does have some nice features, but the experience was overall subpar. A lot of applications breaking (and no, hacks like GTK_BACKEND are not a fix), Screensharing is broken, KDE was crashing for me, while Gnome had some weird glitches. Neither Birdtray nor Betterbird SysTray worked in Hyprland and KDE (but worked for Gnome). But my biggest beef is with Wayland shills, since they claim it's better, but when I described a problem I had, it's immediately dismissed and they claim it's the application's fault. The Wayland protocol seems incomplete, but new addition get dismissed as out of scope, since the devs don't want another X11. So fuck Wayland.
I really wish some would actually fix this mess. Like Pipewire did for Pulseaudio and ALSA. But for now I will go back to i3wm.
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Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2023 12:39:44 No.97500956

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Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2023 19:42:27 No.97500987 Report
>>97494594
>new Linux users who don't know any UNIX history at all
You say that in every Wayland shill thread you make. What do you make of Wayland opponents who are more experienced than you and most Wayland devs too, like this guy?
>I've coded system graphics since the mid 90ies. I've implemented X11 for proprietary actors when that was a thing, I worked on Android SurfaceFlinger. I maintain my own Xorg fork. I have dug through near all solutions in this space throughout its history for local and remote cases. I completed a Ph.D on use of networked display servers in critical infrastructure.
>As polite as I can put it. Wayland is the biggest pile of shit I have had the displeasure to work with - give or take some GSM protocols and ASN1.
>When it reached "1.0" or alpha as it should've been called I implemented it from spec and landed at 'ok, where is the rest of it?'. Big chunks were missing, and to this day, if you just follow the 'stable' interfaces - absolutely nothing will actually run.
>Wayland missed the mark of achieving the 'simplification of X11' goal, but repeated all the same mistakes, and added some substantial new ones. Systemic complexity has easily doubled the last two years alone and a bad situation is now worse.
>Ironically enough, Mir was substantially better in every conceivable way
>They [Wayland] spent project-death amount of resources establishing how to share a buffer from a lower privileged source (client) to a mixing/blending/resampling function (compositor) – failing the basics with that from what the pixels represent (colour correctness) and when they represent what (synch). Then when someone goes "ok can I use the composited results to feed a lower privileged sink?" the response was "not our problem" and instead this hairball of a solution emerge.
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Anonymous Fri 24 Nov 2023 21:44:21 No.97502811 Report
>>97501861
>Every tiny use-case has to be approved through a bureaucratic process that can take years
Not can, will. Every single protocol (literally an xml file) gets bikeshed to oblivion by wayland "devs". Color management is a great example. Wayland is 15 years old and can't do it, while X can. The protocol MR has been open for 3 years and is still nowhere near done. Plasma 6 will be advertising color management when it launches in spite of this, because KDE got so sick of waydevs that they chose an incomplete version of the protocol to implement. See also Gnome and VRR.
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Jun 16, 2022
#3,093
Frail Snail said:
Here's an article from the guy who patches mpv for Wayland about the current state of the protocol. Choice quotes;

Xorg is essentially "mechanism not policy" in regards to development. It gives you a bunch of tools and then it's up to you do do whatever you want. Wayland is exactly the opposite. It's "policy not mechanism". Wayland gives you tools, but you're expected to use them in a certain way. It steers you and guides you to manage your windows in the "right" way. If you ask developers "why can't I do XYZ", you'll likely get an answer along the lines of "why do you need to do that" or "justify your usecase". Understandably, any piece of software has limits on its scope. I'm not criticizing that, but the limit on the scope of the Wayland ecosystem is way too small. There's a ton of stuff you can do client-side on Xorg that you straight-up can't do on Wayland and probably will never be able to do because of the development philosophy.
[...]
That's kind of how it goes in the Wayland-world. If you want to do something that doesn't fit the vision of the developers, good luck. You'll probably have to come up with some workaround (likely with Dbus) because the Wayland protocols and its various extensions are too limited to do what you need. As a reflection of this, you can see that every compositor implements their own, custom protocols to do various things.

If only someone could have seen all that coming....

2011-09-30 A Case against Wayland
You want another window manager, you need to implement a full Wayland compositor. Taking care of all the scrunities involved. Even worse, if the Linux developers decided on creating a new input device interface, say to address some upcoming issues, all Wayland compositors need to be updated. There's a nice German term for this: "Arbeitsbeschaffungsmaßnahme".
And after all of this it's responsible for compositing the windows to the screen(s), which means all the "eye candy" (I call it distractions) apply.
Wayland severely violates one of the core principles of X11: The separation of method and policy. A Wayland compositor mixes method and policy.
I tell you where this will end: In a plugin/module system. A core/mainline Wayland server (managing buffers of square pixel framebuffer memory regions), to which modules are attached that deal with input processing, window management and composition-effects. For stability reasons those will run in separate processes communicating with Wayland through some IPC mechanism (and if Murphy applies this will probably be D-Bus). Then, to tackle all those problems with device dependent rendering, an abstract rendering protocol/library will be introduced. Congratulations! You've just reinvented X11! The whole complexity of X11 is not some anachronistic burden, it's a necessity.
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[Firefox] https://boards.4chan.org/g/thread/98051852

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#5,322
OK, as a digital dilettante I'm beginning to appreciate beefs with Wayland. I had hoped I'd never reach the point of having an opinion on this.

So, the pyautogui.position() function. What it should do is get me a nice tuple containing the x and y coordinates of the mouse pointer. Except it doesn't, not on Ubuntu 22.04!
When my python script is executed via command line (python3 ...), it will report back a seemingly-arbitrary position, over and over again, regardless of actual mouse position. If I run it from within IDLE, it will report cursor position while the pointer is within the IDLE gui, but nowhere else, defaulting to reporting the last mouse cursor position within the IDLE gui if the mouse exceeds those bounds.

I looked into the pyautogui library, and saw that it relied on an Xlib library. That does get the neurons firin', but not quite enough just yet. To try and get a better handle of what was going on a layer deeper, I copied the position() function and its necessary imports over to my script, bypassing pyautogui entirely. Still no dice, the same unintended behavior is replicated.

Well, now I'm desperate. I start looking on Google, and when no combination of search terms dredges up the slightest hint, I start to feel like I'm losing sanity. Then it finally wriggles into my awareness: Xlib. X11. What display server (is Wayland the display server, or is it something else? Apologies, dilettante!) is Ubuntu 22.04 using? Oh, Wayland by default.

One edit to gdm3/custom.conf later, I'm back to X11 and everything is working perfectly. I move my mouse cursor and the outputs of my test script adjust in accordance with my heretofore-lying eyes.
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Sperg Coalition said:
One thing that I always asked myself if why couldn't the X11 developers use these 15 years (yes Wayland is that old) to actually improve an existing technology instead of starting from scratch?
They weren't paid to do that. Companies wanted a display server for embedded Linux systems, polishing X11 up for task was too much work, there was no need for a complex system in a kiosk and now here we are (source: my ass). Paying customers are satisfied, desktop Linux users will assume the square peg shape to be forcibly shoved into the round hole of The Future™️ according to these retarded dipshits.
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jeff7989 said:
In Wayland lunacy news, pcsx2 devs disabled native wayland by default, because they had enough of user complaints over lack of ability to set relative window position, among other things.
https://github.com/PCSX2/pcsx2/pull/10179 Go read wayland protocol merge requests if you want to lose faith in humanity. Years of arguing, which can end with gnome devs vetoing the proposal because of muh security, or simply refusing to implement any of it.
oro1.png

My favorite comment from that thread. A maintainer responds to this snide bitching with "I'll(sic) look forward to your pull request". That would be useful of them, but then I looked at the Github profile.

oro2.png

Those Wayland problems sound like you problems, PS2 emulator developer.
t. a literal hatchling Rust fag (currently learning!), documentation writer and program packager :story:
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#5,171
Rusty Metal Skull Gun said:
I've never had any screen tearing here with my glorious KDE X system. Stop spreading FUD - you're not going to crash the system by plugging another monitor in, and there's no problems at all with performance.
I'm stuck with an Nvidia card in my work machine for the time being, but I have seen none of the issues @snov mentioned here. They're all either extreme outliers, or just plain made up by Wayland shills. The only, single, sole advantage Wayland currently has over X is per-monitor scaling; everything else is a step backwards in usability, stability, and features.

The astroturfing for Wayland is following exactly the same pattern as systemd, right down to vague insinuations of political unsoundness in its opponents, which only convinces me that there are reasons other than the technical behind its adoption.
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