Centrism as a philosophy is stupid.
Westminster Politics
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (Rood) and Anders (Lyng) give a post-mortem on United's disastrous Champions League campaign after a 1-0 loss to Bayern, and if that isn't cheery enough they also discuss our 3-0 home loss to Bournemouth.
Slight bit of positivity around the Chelsea win before crashing back to December disappointment with the loss at St James' Park and expecting the worse at Anfield.
The big question: will Erik Ten Hag still be in charge next month?
What a bizarre approach as well. Surely if you're a dedicated 'centrist' you'd understand it's much better to back the party that, despite its failings, at least has a somewhat solid history and a relatively solid base of voters to rely on with some key constituencies...even if that support base has been increasingly eradicated? Change UK are starting with feck all for the most part...really doesn't make sense.
I like the idea of moderates to a certain extent in that it's good to have people who are perhaps more flexible and varied in their ideology than those on the left or right, but yeah, it should be a sort of general starting point as opposed to some sort of end goal you hold yourself to. If literally the only political belief you hold is to be in the middle of everyone else then you don't really believe in anything at all.
Exactly my thoughts. Same problem the Dems face in the US. If your entire ethos is compromise, you stand for nothing.
I'd say ideology is stupid.
@Cheesy
I think centrism should have evidence based policies and lean towards realpolitik and pragmatism. As such, policies could come from all points on the political spectrum.
… this is an ideology
Well...sure, but the problem is that evidence-based policies inherently involve some level of ideology, because politicians on different ends of the spectrum will take difference things from evidence when it's presented to them.
A Tory will look at the austerity implemented between 2010-15 and argue it was necessary for the improvement of the economy and the reduction of the deficit. A leftist will look at the same policies and argue that said policies were extraordinarily detrimental and damaging to ordinary working people. Technically both can be right. A centrist can hypothetically share sympathies with both sides, but at some point they've probably got to come to a generalised viewpoint...because if they don't then they don't believe in anything. Evidence is a good starting point when implementing policy (and should be useful in changing one's mind) but politics itself is ultimately, to some extent, ideological.
The problem with solely basing politics on things like pragmatism and realpolitik is that, again, you ultimately end up not really believing in anything except (presumably) maintaining a comfortable status quo. Which only really works until that status quo falls apart. And I'd argue that even ideological parties end up engaging in an extensive level of pragmatism and realpolitik anyway, even if they like to claim otherwise.
I dunno, you can respect a true socialist, someone who lives by and according to their convictions.
I walked into that one in fairness.
A lot of good logic there Cheesy. You have a clarity of thought and expression.
I guess that you would need some foundational beliefs from which to build.
Joseph Russo quits: Second Change UK candidate resigns in 24 hours
Quite a racist lot these Change UK , considering part of the reason they left was anti Semitism.
Quite a racist lot these Change UK , considering part of the reason they left was anti Semitism.
Change UK MP's - We are leaving the Labour party because its racist
Also Change UK MP's -
It almost like these people don't care about anti racism at all.
Also Change UK MP's -
It almost like these people don't care about anti racism at all.
I know quite a few Tory voters so I asked them this very question:
Do you consider social security and policies aimed at helping the less well off to be a fundamental of a civilised society or a bribe to encourage them to vote?
Every single one of them said it was a fundamental of a civilised society.
Out of interest have you had many discussions with Tory voters regarding this issue or is it a sentiment that you've ascribed to them because you think that's how they think?
I was being facetious. I try my best to avoid talking to someone once I find out they're a Tory voter.
Ok. That makes sense.
I'm not a Tory voter by the way. Haven't voted since Screaming Lord Sutch died.
i almost feel sorry for them how badly they've managed to screw everything up, this is a woman who praised Tommy Robinsons book and had a twitter rant about M&S selling hijabs ffs. Her views have been endorsed by UKIPs Batten now
![:lol:](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="15" height="17"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg> "LOL :lol:")
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Did ask them after why do they constantly vote to stop these type of policies ?
Didn't even get one mention last night in the BBC interview with Chukai almost feel sorry for them how badly they've managed to screw everything up, this is a woman who praised Tommy Robinsons book ffs. Her views have been endorsed by UKIPs Batten now
Nice lady, that Mrs May...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...egal-action-over-english-test-cheating-claims
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She's a racist and a xenophobe. There's no one that will convince me otherwise.
Although, I'm now a citizen, she was Home Secretary while I was an international student. We had to sign some fecking register 5 days a week, no matter where we were. Had to get permission to travel ffs! Anytime I came into the country, the questions were debasing. She's a cnut and I hate her.
Although, I'm now a citizen, she was Home Secretary while I was an international student. We had to sign some fecking register 5 days a week, no matter where we were. Had to get permission to travel ffs! Anytime I came into the country, the questions were debasing. She's a cnut and I hate her.
And still some people say they have sympathy for her over brexit.
Tories in freefall as councillors say they have given up canvassing
Sunday Express, stop reading there.
Not saying the Tories won't take a beating, but lets get a credible source, can we?
Not saying the Tories won't take a beating, but lets get a credible source, can we?
It's largely come from the Tory peer Hayward who is a credible analyst although his number was 800 not 1000.
Perfectly logical that they'll be punished as such considering most Tories are against the handling of brexit. Turnouts are usually low so the protest vote will be enough to tip the balance.
Had to shudder reading Moggs LBC statements today, feels awful agreeing with him on anything.
Quite surprised to see he falls on the side of not revoking Shamima Begums citizenship.
Quite surprised to see he falls on the side of not revoking Shamima Begums citizenship.
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Id take it with a pinch of salt... pragmatism and logic would suggest the libs are a damaged brand but have a good on the ground organisation - change bring some funding, some profile and a chance to make a fresh start (loose the baggage of the coalition) and the libs bring with them a fair chunk of local government power and the on the ground organisation - ultimately a merger makes a lot of sense for both parties... that said politics and logic dont always go hand in hand
which part is stupid... I mean not a part you happen to not agree with but what part of this is actually "stupid"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrism
Iraq & Afghanistan war ?
Libya intervention ?
08 crash and the reaction to it ?
Austerity ?
It's not a compromise. It's a stance against hardline elements of both right and left. A centrist govt is the ideal govt of all.
Onward: Nearly 50% of the Conservative vote comes from the 65+ age group
This doesn't actually make sense. In 30 years time the current 35+ will be the 65+ so there will always be the 65+ group.
But there's a certain arrogance in deciding that ideas you dislike on either end of the spectrum are 'hardline' while yours are somehow magically altruistic and decent just because they're in the middle of whatever other political parties are proposing. Again, if your stance is literally to be in the middle of everyone else no matter what, then you don't have a stance.
How many 35+ would vote for the Tories though? I would have to have a life changing attitude change to vote for those turds given how much they abandoned my generation. They can get fecked.
So the question is, how many people change voting stance through their lifetime?
The tories are appealing to old home owners while offering nothing to anyone else. So the next 65+ group won't have the similar material conditions as the current lot and will unlikely be tory voters.
There will be a 65+ group but younger people are voting Labour in increasing numbers. Typically Labour have been seen as the party of the young but it's been pointed out that if you took working people alone then Labour would come away from elections with much better results than those who are retired, which contradicts the notion only students who haven't 'gone into the real world' and all that jazz are the ones propping Labour up.
And it makes sense for several reasons. A lot of older Tories like the Tory Party because for all the inequality they've perpetrated a lot of them did well under Thatcher. They became homeowners and succeeded in making more money or owning their own business. Things got better and for the most part (if I'm generalising) they retired in a more comfortable position than they started.
But that's changed. Lots of younger people are working for years but struggling to buy property. People have less job security than they did before. Hence dissatisfaction with the status quo which, for all its flaws, tended to work fairly well for those who at least were meant to benefit from it.
But they probably do change their voting during their lifetime , but what is different from 40 years ago, younger people tended to vote Labour too but they're now voting Tory. Young people felt the same about the Tories all those years ago.
It's like Brexit, a lot of those who voted overwhelmingly pro-EEC now voted against the EU.
As above, however, I don't think all over 65+ are so well off.
But it's always been like that, and not everyone over 65 is comfortably off, probably a lot aren't. Pre-Thatcher a lot of people didn't own properties and lived in council houses, these are those people.
People may have found it easier to buy a house before because there was little else to spend their money on, you paid your mortgage and ate (if you could do both) with extortionate interest rates, anything else was a luxury.
But the stats are literally showing that Tory voters among the young have declined massively in recent years. Even compared to what they've been like before. And they're depending more and more on older voters than they were before as well: without major policy shifts the new generations of old people won't vote Tory to the same extent.
Obviously not all old people are well-off. But many who are, or many who're doing okay for themselves at the very least, vote Tory because their material circumstances improved to an extent under Tory circumstances. That's not happening for younger generations and so they won't be as incentivised to vote Tory.
The reason it's harder to buy a house is because house prices have gone up astronomically compared to wages and earnings. Which is an absolute fact. Nothing to do with people spending on other stuff. Buying luxuries isn't just something that's emerged in the past few years, it's been around for generations now.
Nick Clegg
It's just belief that extremism in anything is not really good.
Being in the middle does not mean centrist are undecided or fail to take a stance. I don't think you'll meet a true centrist who doesn't have a opinion.