Scope sway out of synch for all weapons

[SERE 10]

I thought first it was just bad mods I was using but it turns out weapon sway and scope sway are out of synch for all weapons.

Can we expect this to be fixed at any point?

[k0rd 3]

I don't understand what you mean.

[RushHour 11]

They need to fix the sway at least. go prone and watch your guy handle the weapon as if he´s drunk.

Holding the breath solves the problem but then you have lungs the size of a molecule..

[hardsiesta 1]

  SERE said:

I thought first it was just bad mods I was using but it turns out weapon sway and scope sway are out of synch for all weapons.

Can we expect this to be fixed at any point?

What are you talking about? Nothing wrong with scopes for me.

  RushHour said:

They need to fix the sway at least. go prone and watch your guy handle the weapon as if he´s drunk.

Holding the breath solves the problem but then you have lungs the size of a molecule..

Can't tell if serious... Could it be that you just don't like the sway and want it literally 'fixed'?

I guess having these posts in the general and not troubleshooting answers that. If you know you're talking about your personal opinion, or a problem that possibly exists only in your own end, putting it out like it should be presumed a universal fault looks f*ing dumb.

[RushHour 11]

  HardSiesta said:

Can't tell if serious... Could it be that you just don't like the sway and want it literally 'fixed'?

Of course you can´t. And no, i want realism not fake super sway to give a false impression that it´s simulated.

Just pick a sniper rifle, go prone, and watch the aim go around like the person has been drinking.

Example,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgSdAv8R4c0&feature=youtu.be

I also timed the holding breath and i got about 6-7 seconds. Yes you read that right, that´s 6-7 seconds...

You think that´s realistic too?

Edited February 9, 2014 by RushHour

[hardsiesta 1]

  RushHour said:

snip

So in your opinion it should be less, or 'more realistic', then. Fine, never argued that. Just the expression. Yes, the sway is quite strong or exaggerated with the long range scopes, but is it broken? I don't think so. Entirely realistic? Obviously not. Few things in ArmA are. Too easy aiming even at 1km+ would be boring and an issue in itself. And even if it was super real, I don't think vanilla ArmA is made for boring realism. It's a balancing issue at best. Long range sniping might have some extra difficulty while some other weapons are too easy to use, at the moment. I guess the bipod could at least do more than just hang from the barrel, unused. If you have ideas and arguments about how to make it better, good, but a more accurate instead of arrogant expression would probably help it a lot.

But is it 'out of sync' for you, or do you know what the OP meant with it? Was it just a weird way of saying "the sway is exaggerated" or something? I think the sway is balanced alright for less magnification, and that it's probably the same sway (based on your PC's conditions) that gets exaggerated at the higher magnification levels. Well balanced for playability or not? That's a good question, but I don't believe it's the topic here.

Edited February 9, 2014 by HardSiesta

[RushHour 11]

  HardSiesta said:

So in your opinion it should be less, or 'more realistic', then. Fine, never argued that.

Oh but you did, you seem to argue without actually knowing yourself what i talked about (until i posted a video). Now that you have seen the video you instead write a small wall of text jumping around the fact that the sway is way off what´s realistic. Or even remotely realistic for that matter.

[mamasan8 11]

'Boring realism' is why we are here. Too much scope sway for certain, doesn't matter what gun. Shooting from the hip or placing gun against shoulder gives almost same sway....errr, why?. Then theres standing up, scoping and humongous sway....ever watched that competition where they ski for a few kilometers, pick out their rifle, shoot standing up, hit 5 targets then continue skiing? Yeah, Arma is nothing like that. It's like someone lost touch with reality.

[ratszo 17]

"....ever watched that competition where they ski for a few kilometers, pick out their rifle, shoot standing up, hit 5 targets then continue skiing?"

..., so easy to do, they hand out medals to the best of those marksmen.

In the old days, they shot military carbines, not these lite-weight .22s.

[RushHour 11]

  Ratszo said:

..., so easy to do, they hand out medals to the best of those marksmen.

I think the point is still valid though.

On one end you have a guy that has been skiing for miles, picks out targets relatively good while completely exhausted.

Then you have this supposed elite sniper whom we have to assume is at least average in what he´s doing, completely relaxed on a runway but can´t even hold the rifle somewhat steady.

On top of that the holding breath. About 7 seconds. What was the thought process with having artificial lungs where the person sounds like he´s about to die after 7 seconds?

I fully get and accept all the sway you have if you have been running around and whatnot but completely calm, relaxed, proned and that scope sway is utter nonsense.

Even the 7 second holding breath while exhausted is fully acceptable imo.

[giorgygr 61]

This thread probably will drive the 'main' complain to the "Holding Breath" time.

Yes.."Holding Breath" should be +100% of current time/secs

[Smurf 12]

The whole sway, breathing, resting and recoil is frustrating, it feels wrong. It's not "gamey" (patterns), fun, balanced or realistic.

If they want to improve infantry everything, this is a topic that needs some thoughts.

[UltimateBawb 1]

  mamasan8 said:

'Boring realism' is why we are here. Too much scope sway for certain, doesn't matter what gun. Shooting from the hip or placing gun against shoulder gives almost same sway....errr, why?. Then theres standing up, scoping and humongous sway....ever watched that competition where they ski for a few kilometers, pick out their rifle, shoot standing up, hit 5 targets then continue skiing? Yeah, Arma is nothing like that. It's like someone lost touch with reality.

There is no such thing as shooting from the hip in Arma. There is only aimed and unaimed firing.

[hardsiesta 1]

  RushHour said:

Oh but you did, you seem to argue without actually knowing yourself what i talked about (until i posted a video). Now that you have seen the video you instead write a small wall of text jumping around the fact that the sway is way off what´s realistic. Or even remotely realistic for that matter.

Did I? I guess you're the one to know better. Yeah, I admit, at the time of writing I didn't recall how the sway is if you just let it go, because I never do that. I was coming from the point of aiming difficulty, which I think is quite alright, so I assumed you might have wanted it fixed instead. It wasn't on topic so I discussed it with the "wall of text", and you answered, except whether you think this is what the OP was talking about. Feel free to point out where I suggested the free sway was realistic. I can point out where I expressed disregard of it. I'm more interested in the overall handling and aiming difficulty in different situations, because I think handling and aiming in ArmA is way easier than handling and aiming a gun in real life. The sway just compensates that a little, and I'm happy about that.

  mamasan8 said:

'Boring realism' is why we are here. Too much scope sway for certain, doesn't matter what gun. Shooting from the hip or placing gun against shoulder gives almost same sway....errr, why?. Then theres standing up, scoping and humongous sway....ever watched that competition where they ski for a few kilometers, pick out their rifle, shoot standing up, hit 5 targets then continue skiing? Yeah, Arma is nothing like that. It's like someone lost touch with reality.

Perhaps you are. I'm here only because of the interesting realism. Still, the varying degrees of optional and/or boring realism is more often in the mods, and not in the vanilla. My experience in military was nothing like biathlon either. Endurance sports are all about breath control, they don't have any gear on them, and they shoot very small and light rifles at 50m targets.

The sway might have room for improvement, but I myself don't have a problem with it. I think I can see the devs intent and how it serves its purpose. Just reducing the sway all around would probably make the handling too easy for my taste. Then the game would be far more unrealistic because it wouldn't model the handling difficulty well enough AND would be too easy on top of it (which it already is).

  RushHour said:

I fully get and accept all the sway you have if you have been running around and whatnot but completely calm, relaxed, proned and that scope sway is utter nonsense.

Even the 7 second holding breath while exhausted is fully acceptable imo.

Now we're on the same page. My point was it's not that utter nonsense because it's the difficulty modifier. Unrealistic in that particular scenario, but irrelevant in that the game has to make compromises in modeling everything, and it doesn't break realistic difficulty, but rather it creates it, even if it is annoying with the high power scopes. Still a smaller problem and more realistic than handling that's way too easy compared to real life.

  Smurf said:

The whole sway, breathing, resting and recoil is frustrating, it feels wrong. It's not "gamey" (patterns), fun, balanced or realistic.

If they want to improve infantry everything, this is a topic that needs some thoughts.

Which game should we look for a better system? ArmA's the best and most realistic I know of. Maybe not perfect, but closer than anything else.

Edited February 10, 2014 by HardSiesta

[-Coulum- 35]

I think sway is pretty fair. When most people complain about it it is at long range with high magnification. It should be expected that your weapon isn't perfectly steady. Sniping shouldn't be something that everyone just picks up and does. And in the end hold breath is there and allows for good solid shooting in any stance. It just requires a bit of planning to make it useful.

Hold breath time is pretty good as well imo. Too me it doesn't really represent literally holding your breath but rather focusing, ensuring sight alignment, controlling breath, tensing up the muscles etc. I can hold my breath for over two minutes in reality. But I can sure as hell tell you that at the one and a half minute mark I am going to be shaking more than if I would if breathing normally. When you shoot you don't literally just hold your breath. Its more like you should try to have your shots coincide with the small natural pause between the end of and exhale and the start of an inhale of the respiratory cycle. You can extend this pause by holding breath, yes. But the steadiness you achieve will quickly be gone if you lack oxygen. Just because you hold your breath doesn't mean your aim is steady in reality. So the whole "In real life you can hold your breath longer" is a bad argument in my opinion. Yes in real life you can, but in real life good shooting is not achieved by just taking a deep breath and holding it as long as you can. In fact that is bad shooting and just ridiculous.

Anyhow I am not really sure if this is what the OP was talking about in the first place. There is a problem with the sway of the scope and the misalignment animation that plays out when prone. It leads to the crosshairs pointing one way but the gun pointinng another when using the 2d scopes (SOS) and similar inaccuracies when using other scopes. If you let the animation play out (don't touch the mouse for a second or so) the gun will stop pointing to where the crosshairs are pointing. You can see this clearly if using bullet tracing scripts. You will have your horizontal alignment of the crosshairs in line with the target yet the bullet will go left or right on occasion. This has nothing to do with sway though, and is entirely due to the prone head animmations (I believe).

[mamasan8 11]

I have no problems with sway when I'm sniping. Just in every other case. 100-400m shooting with assault rifles. If it was 1 shot, 1 kill, it would be OK but not when it takes 4-5 shots, having to reaim everytime. Aiming overall in quite close battles don't feel natural. I don't know what it is but sway comes into it.

Its not like "Oh an enemy, scope up, shoot". More like "Oh an enemy, scope up, try to aim for him, miss 5 times, get killed". Aiming system doesn't feel responsive and natural.

Edited February 10, 2014 by mamasan8

[RushHour 11]

  -Coulum- said:

Hold breath time is pretty good as well imo. Too me it doesn't really represent literally holding your breath but rather focusing, ensuring sight alignment, controlling breath, tensing up the muscles etc. I can hold my breath for over two minutes in reality. But I can sure as hell tell you that at the one and a half minute mark I am going to be shaking more than if I would if breathing normally. When you shoot you don't literally just hold your breath. Its more like you should try to have your shots coincide with the small natural pause between the end of and exhale and the start of an inhale of the respiratory cycle. You can extend this pause by holding breath, yes. But the steadiness you achieve will quickly be gone if you lack oxygen. Just because you hold your breath doesn't mean your aim is steady in reality. So the whole "In real life you can hold your breath longer" is a bad argument in my opinion. Yes in real life you can, but in real life good shooting is not achieved by just taking a deep breath and holding it as long as you can. In fact that is bad shooting and just ridiculous.

It´s not a bad argument because holding the breath is really the only thing that makes long range shooting acceptable in game right now. And getting 7 seconds of that is just not enough some times when hitting moving target like an Ifrit with the Lynx.

They way i see it is this,

Give us bipods (I´m amazed it´s still not in the game, it´s obviously a small thing to fix since there are mods out there that does it really well. Nobody on BI reacted when the graphic artists started designing bipods on the weapons it seems)

Decrease sway to acceptable levels so you don´t have to rely 100% on holding the breath.

Increase the length of holding the breath. I think 14 seconds is a good number and would warrant the near-death-exhale of your character to some extent.

[hardsiesta 1]

  -Coulum- said:

Anyhow I am not really sure if this is what the OP was talking about in the first place. There is a problem with the sway of the scope and the misalignment animation that plays out when prone. It leads to the crosshairs pointing one way but the gun pointinng another when using the 2d scopes (SOS) and similar inaccuracies when using other scopes. If you let the animation play out (don't touch the mouse for a second or so) the gun will stop pointing to where the crosshairs are pointing. You can see this clearly if using bullet tracing scripts. You will have your horizontal alignment of the crosshairs in line with the target yet the bullet will go left or right on occasion. This has nothing to do with sway though, and is entirely due to the prone head animmations (I believe).

Thanks for clearing this out. If it's like this, then fixing it should be a high priority.

  mamasan8 said:

I have no problems with sway when I'm sniping. Just in every other case. 100-400m shooting with assault rifles. If it was 1 shot, 1 kill, it would be OK but not when it takes 4-5 shots, having to reaim everytime. Aiming overall in quite close battles don't feel natural. I don't know what it is but sway comes into it.

Its not like "Oh an enemy, scope up, shoot". More like "Oh an enemy, scope up, try to aim for him, miss 5 times, get killed". Aiming system doesn't feel responsive and natural.

This is subjective. The aiming in ArmA still feels as natural as I've seen in a game, whatever range, which is quite extraordinary. I think the iron- and close range sights have the sway just right; You don't have to compensate at all at close range, while you have to compensate a little at the extreme ranges of those sights. Hell of a lot easier than holding a "pixel perfect" aim on something in real life, especially if we're talking about a non-prone stance. It's the magnification that steps up the difficulty, and I think it maintains a very reasonable challenge, relative to real difficulty of holding an aim, all the way up to the highest powered scopes. It's the prone position with extreme magnification that starts to seem exaggerated. Perhaps they should make high magnification scopes have less sway and replace it with heartbeat tremors and timing, something that affects any medium+ range shot IRL. That could be great.

I'm fine with the damage to kill, you need just one good hit in the vitals. Too bad that doesn't happen so often, while hitting anything else has too little effect. A bullet directly to the leg should disable the target, and a shot to the arm should ruin the aim, until patched up. Then the damage would be fine.

Edited February 10, 2014 by HardSiesta

[ratszo 17]

Shooting tips from "Outdoor Life":

"Settling Breath:

What’s the most difficult shot to make? I’d submit that it is right after you’ve run the final 50 yards to get into position before your animal disappears into the brush—a scenario I think most hunters have experienced. (Though dragging the 180-pound “clanks†pictured here during a timed shooting drill wasn’t a picnic, either.)

With your lungs working like a bellows and your heart pounding for all it’s worth, do what biathletes do to settle down before shooting.  Take three deep controlled breaths, in through the nose and out through the mouth. This will lower your heart rate and steady your aim.

As you get ready to shoot, let the air out of your lungs, pausing at the bottom of your breathing cycle. In this relaxed state, you have about seven seconds to shoot before the lack of oxygen affects your vision and induces muscle tremors.   If you can’t manage the shot in this time, don’t force it—you’ll only miss. Take three more deep breaths to reset and try again."

http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/guns/rifles/2011/08/sniper-school-precision-long-range-shooting?photo=11#node-1001347600

7 seconds max..., how 'bout that.

[CaptainObvious 95]

  Ratszo said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Shooting tips from "Outdoor Life":

"Settling Breath:

What’s the most difficult shot to make? I’d submit that it is right after you’ve run the final 50 yards to get into position before your animal disappears into the brush—a scenario I think most hunters have experienced. (Though dragging the 180-pound “clanks†pictured here during a timed shooting drill wasn’t a picnic, either.)

With your lungs working like a bellows and your heart pounding for all it’s worth, do what biathletes do to settle down before shooting.  Take three deep controlled breaths, in through the nose and out through the mouth. This will lower your heart rate and steady your aim.

As you get ready to shoot, let the air out of your lungs, pausing at the bottom of your breathing cycle. In this relaxed state, you have about seven seconds to shoot before the lack of oxygen affects your vision and induces muscle tremors.   If you can’t manage the shot in this time, don’t force it—you’ll only miss. Take three more deep breaths to reset and try again."

http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/guns/rifles/2011/08/sniper-school-precision-long-range-shooting?photo=11#node-1001347600

7 seconds max..., how 'bout that.

During my service we were also told to take the shot within 5 to 7 seconds, what a coincidence! :eek:

[RushHour 11]

  Ratszo said:

7 seconds max..., how 'bout that.

Let´s read it again, then think about what´s different in Arma. Makes things easier for everyone.

"let the air out of your lungs, pausing at the bottom of your breathing cycle. In this relaxed state, you have about seven seconds to shoot before the lack of oxygen affects your vision and induces muscle tremors."

In A3 the game INHALES. I don´t think i need to explain the difference in oxygen levels between empty lungs and semi-full lungs.

"how ´bout that..."

[Harzach 2424]

  RushHour said:

In A3 the game INHALES.

Then that's another thing they got wrong. The timing is appropriate for proper breath control while aiming, they just simulate the wrong half of the breath cycle.

[hardsiesta 1]

  Harzach said:

Then that's another thing they got wrong. The timing is appropriate for proper breath control while aiming, they just simulate the wrong half of the breath cycle.

Isn't the the order of the sound samples the only thing wrong, then? Just swap them, done. +100% realism. Such a small fix could be done with extremely little time and effort, if the devs were notified about it. Worth a ticket, maybe? EDIT: NO.

Edited February 10, 2014 by HardSiesta

[Opticalsnare 12]

You know what i found once a upon a time.

These also affect the player!

class CfgAISkill {
aimingAccuracy[] = {0, 1, 1, 1};
       aimingShake[] = {0, 1, 1, 1};
       aimingSpeed[] = {0, 1, 1, 1};
endurance[] = {0, 0.5, 1, 1};
spotDistance[] = {0, 1, 1, 1};
spotTime[] = {0, 0.5, 1, 1};
courage[] = {0, 0.4, 1, 1};
reloadSpeed[] = {0, 0.3, 1, 1};
commanding[] = {0, 1, 1, 1};
general[] = {0, 1, 1, 1};
};

[f2k sel 163]

If you use dotarget the AI after a while start to ignore commands and start to sway and then perform a strange rotation.

It's really annoying http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=17101

ignore if not relevant to this topic.