Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

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Irenaeus
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Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by Irenaeus »

Hello everyone,

Not because I'm expecting a Mad Max scenario, not because I'm anticipating hyperinflation or deflation, but because I think adding a small allocation of even a volatile alternative asset to a portfolio of stocks and bonds will smooth portfolio returns, I'm thinking of adding as much as a 10% allocation of gold to my taxable account. With the addition of gold, my asset allocation would be around 80% equities, 15-10% bonds, 5-10% gold. I prefer to keep my Roth for equities. I have been thinking of adding AAAU - Perth Mint Physical Gold ETF (expense ratio 0.18%) or SGOL - Aberdeen Standard Physical Swiss Gold Shares ETF (expense ratio 0.17%), but thanks to some recent posts in these forums, including Better to invest in gold via ETF or ETN?, I'm now more inclined to buy PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust (expense ratio 0.45%) because it can be taxed at the capital gains rate if held for more than one year. But I need your help. My understanding is that gold ETFs are taxed at the ordinary income rate or the collectible rate (28%), whichever is lower. Is that correct?

Here is information from Sprott regarding IRS filing and more:
Normally, all long-term capital gains on investments in precious metals (including gold, silver, platinum and palladium) are subject to a 28% collectibles tax rate (short-term capital gains are subject to a 37% tax rate in 2018). Losses on the disposition of precious metals are treated as capital losses which can only be used to offset capital gains and $3,000 of ordinary income.

But because the Trusts are PFICs [Passive Foreign Investment Companies], a U.S. individual investor is eligible for long-term capital gain tax rate (a maximum rate of 15% or 20% depending on income) on the sale or redemption of their units, including a redemption for physical bullion. In order to be eligible for the capital gain tax rate, a U.S. taxable investor must make a Qualifying Electing Fund (QEF) election with respect to each Trust and must have held the units for more than one year at the time of the sale.

Any U.S. taxable investor can make a QEF election, which is made on IRS Form 8621 that is filed with the investor’s annual U.S. income tax return.

The QEF election must be made with the tax return for the first year in which the investor acquired shares of the Trust. The election is made only once and is maintained by reporting the investor’s pro rata share of the Trust’s ordinary earnings and net capital gain on Form 8621 as described in Item 8 (“What are the other consequences of the Trusts being PFICs?”). Note that while the election is made only once, the investor will have to file a Form 8621 with the investor’s annual income tax reports to report the income from the Trust as described in Item 8. If an investor acquires additional units, a new election is not necessary with respect to such units as the existing election will automatically apply to such newly acquired units.
My portfolio soon might look like this:

Taxable (I would rather have just VT instead of VTI + VXUS, but because of the foreign tax credit applying to VXUS and not to VT at current global market weights, I'll go with VTI + VXUS)
  • VTI - Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF
  • VXUS - Vanguard Total International Stock ETF
  • BNDW - Vanguard Total World Bond ETF
  • Whatever I pick for gold (AAAU, SGOL or PHYS) goes here
Company 401(k)
  • VBTIX - Vanguard Total Bond Market Index
Roth
  • VT Vanguard Total World Stock ETF
Last edited by Irenaeus on Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
oldfort
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by oldfort »

Not saying you should invest in gold, but I would do 10% or 0%. 5% is too small to move the needle on your portfolio and over-complicates the situation.
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Irenaeus
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by Irenaeus »

oldfort wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:53 pm Not saying you should invest in gold, but I would do 10% or 0%. 5% is too small to move the needle on your portfolio and over-complicates the situation.
Thanks. I thought someone would chime in with that suggestion.
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unclescrooge
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by unclescrooge »

I own 6% GLDM. Overall portfolio is roughly 80% stocks, 20% bonds.
Leemiller
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by Leemiller »

My understanding is that quite a bit of the price of gold is due to consumption from India/the Middle East and that this consumption isn’t playing out the same way for the younger generation. For that reason, I’ve eliminated gold in my portfolio.
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nisiprius
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by nisiprius »

Aberdeen Standard Physical Gold Shares is not an ETF.
The Aberdeen Standard Gold ETF Trust is not an investment company registered under the Investment Company Act of 1940 or a commodity pool for purposes of the Commodity Exchange Act. Shares of the Gold Trust are not subject to the same regulatory requirements as mutual funds. These investments are not suitable for all investors. Trusts focusing on a single commodity generally experience greater volatility. There are special risks associated with short selling and margin investing. Please ask your financial advisor for more information about these risks.
I can't figure out what PHYS is. I'm pretty sure it's not an ETF; I don't think it is even registered in the United States.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
JC16
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by JC16 »

Gold ETFs are governed by the 33 Act because they hold commodities. Equity ETFs and mutual funds are 40 act funds because they hold securities.
PHYS is domiciled in Canada and therefore is considered a passive foreign investment corp by the IRS which is why it is not subject to Collectibles tax like all other gold ETFs. PHYS is registered with the SEC. you need to complete IRS form 8621 and submit it with your tax return to receive capital gains tax treatment. There is good information on their website https://sprott.com/investment-strategie ... formation/
senex
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by senex »

JC16 wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:00 am PHYS is domiciled in Canada and therefore is considered a passive foreign investment corp by the IRS which is why it is not subject to Collectibles tax like all other gold ETFs. PHYS is registered with the SEC. you need to complete IRS form 8621 and submit it with your tax return to receive capital gains tax treatment. There is good information on their website https://sprott.com/investment-strategie ... formation/
This is important!

You must file IRS 8621 every year you hold PHYS, if you want to elect & maintain the long term capital gains treatment. Turbotax does not support that form (last time I checked), so you need to fill that form by hand, print your tax return on paper, and file the combined return by mail. This is a lot of hassle.

I don't know what happens if you hold a PFIC without making the LTCG election. You might need to recognize mark-to-market gains & losses each year on your taxes. This whole situation is very confusing. Same thing with CEF, which is a Canada PFIC.

Edited to add: I recommend searching for "pfic 8621" and read a bunch of articles (such as https://hodgen.com/how-to-make-a-qef-el ... en-a-pfic/ ) before buying a foreign investment.
bberris
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by bberris »

nisiprius wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:45 pm Aberdeen Standard Physical Gold Shares is not an ETF.
The Aberdeen Standard Gold ETF Trust is not an investment company registered under the Investment Company Act of 1940 or a commodity pool for purposes of the Commodity Exchange Act. Shares of the Gold Trust are not subject to the same regulatory requirements as mutual funds. These investments are not suitable for all investors. Trusts focusing on a single commodity generally experience greater volatility. There are special risks associated with short selling and margin investing. Please ask your financial advisor for more information about these risks.
I can't figure out what PHYS is. I'm pretty sure it's not an ETF; I don't think it is even registered in the United States.
PHYS is a closed-end fund investing in gold. It is distinguished from other gold commodity funds by having actual gold bars which it pays to securely store and insure. Or maybe it has receipts which can be exchanged for gold bars. Really no difference; the gold is in a safe somewhere. Whatever. As a closed-end fund, it can trade and has traded for more or less than the value of its assets. Today it is at a -0.6 % discount to NAV.
Swivelguy
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by Swivelguy »

What's the logic for doing this in taxable and not in your IRA? The higher tax rate on gold (versus LTCGs on stocks) is exactly what you don't want if it fulfills its intended purpose of surging upward when stocks take a dive and you need to rebalance.
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Irenaeus
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by Irenaeus »

Swivelguy wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:11 pm What's the logic for doing this in taxable and not in your IRA? The higher tax rate on gold (versus LTCGs on stocks) is exactly what you don't want if it fulfills its intended purpose of surging upward when stocks take a dive and you need to rebalance.
1) I just don't have much space in my Roth IRA and have been keeping some of what I'm guessing will be my fastest growing assets, equities, there.

2) Perhaps I misunderstand you but PHYS, because its trust is in Canada and is a PFIC (passive foreign investment company to me as a US investor), if held for more than one year and if I make the proper IRS elections, would allow for a LTCG rate on the gold unlike gold ETFs such as GLD, GLDM, SGOL, AAAU, which, if I understand correctly, are taxed at either the ordinary income rate or at the collectible rate, whichever is lower (please see my original post where I wrote: "My understanding is that other gold ETFs are taxed at the ordinary income rate or the collectible rate (28%), whichever is lower. Is that correct?" - nobody has yet replied to that question asking for confirmation of my understanding).
Swivelguy
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by Swivelguy »

I wouldn't be so sure that a free lunch exists. Maybe consult a tax attorney and/or CPA before you commit to a strategy.

https://www.etf.com/sections/blog/7345- ... 3&Itemid=3
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KEotSK66
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by KEotSK66 »

gold can be volatile so an allocation of 5% is ok
"i just got fluctuated out of $1,500", jerry
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Irenaeus
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by Irenaeus »

Swivelguy wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:17 am I wouldn't be so sure that a free lunch exists. Maybe consult a tax attorney and/or CPA before you commit to a strategy.

https://www.etf.com/sections/blog/7345- ... 3&Itemid=3
Swivelguy - thank you for the linked article. Responses such as yours are why I post here as a form of due diligence.
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Irenaeus
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by Irenaeus »

I again ask for clarification:

My understanding is that gold ETFs (e.g., GLD, GLDM, AAAU, SGOL, IAU, OUNZ, BAR,...) are taxed at the ordinary income rate or the collectible rate (28%), whichever is lower. Is that correct?
not4me
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by not4me »

Irenaeus wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:00 am I again ask for clarification:

My understanding is that gold ETFs (e.g., GLD, GLDM, AAAU, SGOL, IAU, OUNZ, BAR,...) are taxed at the ordinary income rate or the collectible rate (28%), whichever is lower. Is that correct?
I'll post as much as anything to bump the thread. I'm not an accountant & don't own these. I have looked into some in the past, but that was before US tax law changed a couple of years back.

I do not think this is correct.

I am especially leery of it being a blanket statement as you seem to be looking for. Some ETFs are "physically backed", meaning they hold actual physical gold; others use futures. Some issue 1099s, some K1s. These factors affect taxes. I'm not aware that any of these are taxed as you suggest, but there are lots of inventive ETFs out there these days. I would look in the prospectus of anything I bought to see how that specific was taxed. If I wanted a general rule, it would be that these ETFs are structured as trusts that pass thru to the investor without paying taxes or changing the characteristics of the tax due. (btw, this assumes US individual investor & not a dealer, etc)

Of course, in addition to ETFs, there are other products (ETNs, closed end funds, foreign (including Canadian), etc); It's on the buyer to be sure they know what they are buying.

By the way, I wouldn't just look at the taxes due. I'm not that familiar with PFICs & QEF election, but I believe they carry with them some other tax considerations depending upon which of the myriad options you select. Opinions will vary, but I don't think it is on a Canadian company to include in their prospectus ALL of the side effects of some an approach.
halfnine
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by halfnine »

Irenaeus wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:00 am I again ask for clarification:

My understanding is that gold ETFs (e.g., GLD, GLDM, AAAU, SGOL, IAU, OUNZ, BAR,...) are taxed at the ordinary income rate or the collectible rate (28%), whichever is lower. Is that correct?
I can't speak for all the etfs but in general, yes, you have it correct.

The other relevant point is that it that while the capital gains on gold and the relevant etfs are taxed as collectibles they can still be offset against capital losses. So if gold zigs while your equities zag you could still reduce or completely eliminate taxable gains.
bluerafters
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by bluerafters »

unclescrooge wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:02 pm I own 6% GLDM. Overall portfolio is roughly 80% stocks, 20% bonds.
Went this way as well over GLD. Lower expense ratio and I’m happy holding until doomsday or a nice profit.
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unclescrooge
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by unclescrooge »

bluerafters wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:40 pm
unclescrooge wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:02 pm I own 6% GLDM. Overall portfolio is roughly 80% stocks, 20% bonds.
Went this way as well over GLD. Lower expense ratio and I’m happy holding until doomsday or a nice profit.
Even without doomsday, it's been good to rebalance from gold into equities and vice versa this year.
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Irenaeus
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by Irenaeus »

For the benefit of anyone seeking information on gold investing, I am resurrecting this thread to enhance it with a helpful article, Metal, Money, and the Measurable Value of Gold, included in a more recent thread - A timely and equanimous article on gold - in the Investing - Theory, News & General forum.
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jason2459
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by jason2459 »

bluerafters wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:40 pm
unclescrooge wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:02 pm I own 6% GLDM. Overall portfolio is roughly 80% stocks, 20% bonds.
Went this way as well over GLD. Lower expense ratio and I’m happy holding until doomsday or a nice profit.
I can understand those that buy gold with a doomsday scenario in mind. But they are buying physical gold.

What do you plan to do with those shares of paper stored electronically somewhere when a doomsday event happens and no one cares about those paper receipts.
"In the short run, the stock market is a voting machine; in the long run, it is a weighing machine" ~Benjamin Graham
bluerafters
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by bluerafters »

jason2459 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:04 pm
bluerafters wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:40 pm
unclescrooge wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:02 pm I own 6% GLDM. Overall portfolio is roughly 80% stocks, 20% bonds.
Went this way as well over GLD. Lower expense ratio and I’m happy holding until doomsday or a nice profit.
I can understand those that buy gold with a doomsday scenario in mind. But they are buying physical gold.

What do you plan to do with those shares of paper stored electronically somewhere when a doomsday event happens and no one cares about those paper receipts.
This comment has just haunted me since August. It's absolutely been in the back of my mind as I approach my strategy for 2021...
invest4
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by invest4 »

bluerafters wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:59 am
jason2459 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:04 pm
bluerafters wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:40 pm
unclescrooge wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:02 pm I own 6% GLDM. Overall portfolio is roughly 80% stocks, 20% bonds.
Went this way as well over GLD. Lower expense ratio and I’m happy holding until doomsday or a nice profit.
I can understand those that buy gold with a doomsday scenario in mind. But they are buying physical gold.

What do you plan to do with those shares of paper stored electronically somewhere when a doomsday event happens and no one cares about those paper receipts.
This comment has just haunted me since August. It's absolutely been in the back of my mind as I approach my strategy for 2021...
Understandable. I believe that is why a number of people have physical possession of whatever amount they deem appropriate for themselves in case the need should arise. Klangfool immediately comes to my mind as an example, which he has highlighted in various posts.
bluerafters
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by bluerafters »

invest4 wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:54 am
bluerafters wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:59 am
jason2459 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:04 pm
bluerafters wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:40 pm
unclescrooge wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:02 pm I own 6% GLDM. Overall portfolio is roughly 80% stocks, 20% bonds.
Went this way as well over GLD. Lower expense ratio and I’m happy holding until doomsday or a nice profit.
I can understand those that buy gold with a doomsday scenario in mind. But they are buying physical gold.

What do you plan to do with those shares of paper stored electronically somewhere when a doomsday event happens and no one cares about those paper receipts.
This comment has just haunted me since August. It's absolutely been in the back of my mind as I approach my strategy for 2021...
Understandable. I believe that is why a number of people have physical possession of whatever amount they deem appropriate for themselves in case the need should arise. Klangfool immediately comes to my mind as an example, which he has highlighted in various posts.
Yep. I've also spent a small amount of time the back half of this year learning some crypto: “Not your keys, not your coins”. I exited my entire position of GLDM.
All Seasons
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by All Seasons »

A 10% allocation to gold is the one asset that all investors should hold.

Ideally that 10% should be some mix of physical and digital. A 10% allocation can improve the performance of a traditional stock/bond portfolio even if economic disaster should not strike. And if it does, it may allow you to protect some of your wealth.
bluerafters
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Re: Your thoughts on a <= 10% allocation to PHYS - Sprott Physical Gold Trust

Post by bluerafters »

All Seasons wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:17 pm A 10% allocation to gold is the one asset that all investors should hold.

Ideally that 10% should be some mix of physical and digital. A 10% allocation can improve the performance of a traditional stock/bond portfolio even if economic disaster should not strike. And if it does, it may allow you to protect some of your wealth.
I hear you. I really, really, do. I just can't support paper gold. Physical, sure, were on the same page.
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