Forever Gun

7979 Views 97 Replies 35 Participants Last post by arizonafusilier, Jan 27, 2016

JOracle

Discussion Starter · Jan 10, 2016

In an extended grid-down scenario, where ammunition becomes scarce, I'm wondering about a gun that will be shoot-able using reasonably-available materials.

I understand that black-powder can be produced at home, that salvageable led would be around for a long time, and that black powder rifles are a solution.

1. However, what's the most modern repeating rifle that still accommodates black powder? (.45-70? older?)

2. What did they use for primers back then?

As you can probably tell, I'm working on a repeating rifle where ammunition will never run out. What's the best option?

Give me a place to start and I'll put it all together, do some testing and get back to y'all.

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drobs

· #81 · Jan 18, 2016

Some reading on Sulfur production by the South during the Civil War:

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/how...tain-sulpher-for-gunpowder-manufacture.96029/

They used nitric acid to leach sulfur from iron pyrite.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id... sulphur from iron pyrite confederate&f=false

Another mention of refining sulfur:

Adjoining this part of the Works was the Sulphur Refinery, where this material was prepared from the crude stock, and made ready for the incorporating process. About one hundred and thirty tons of very impure sulphur had been received from Louisiana, for the use of the Powder Works; it had been purchased before the war by the planters for use in the making of sugar, and was bought up by the Confederate officers. The best quality of gunpowder has its sulphur chemically pure, which could be demonstrated by showing no trace of acid when powdered and boiled in water, and should entirely evaporate on a piece of glass when heated, leaving no stain. This can only be accomplished practically by distillation. The crude article was melted and poured into upright, thick wooden boxes five feet high and ten inches square at the bottom, tapering upwards; when cold the earthy matters would be found in the lower portion by subsidence, leaving about three feet apparently pure. This was broken off and placed into two kettles of suitable form and dimensions, having furnaces; the tops of these kettles were connected by a bent iron pipe to an enlarged portion, which was surrounded with water. On the application of heat the sulphur vaporized, and passing over through the pipe was condensed in the cooled portion, whence it trickled in a thick stream into a receiving vessel below; the first portions being rejected, the remainder was of a beautiful citron yellow when cold, and entirely pure.

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/black-powder-without-sulfur.96740/

Seems to me that the making BP from non-commercially procured ingredients take knowledge of history and chemistry.

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Popeye Doyle

· #82 · Jan 18, 2016

JOracle said:
That's what I thought too.

Then I started shooting with SOF guys and realized that civilian shooters... we don't know the tenth part of what it takes to gunfight at high levels.

Probably like you, I've killed a zillion deer, elk, bears, hogs and the like. I've shot tens of thousands of rounds. But being skilled at combat, that's a very unique skill set. And, most Army, Navy and Marines don't do point-of-the-spear gunfighting. They have very rudimentary gunfighting skills (my son just finished Marine infantry training.)

Point being; more training equates to more survivability (and there's a lot of room to improve past being an average American shooter.)

Too few people invest in quality training to learn and hone their respective skill sets. Lots of $ spent on shiny new guns ... not enough $ spent on learning how to properly and effectively use those shiny new guns.

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JOracle

Discussion Starter · #83 · Jan 18, 2016

drobs said:
I was a little disappointed to see that a BP AK didn't work so well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LopUNq6lF2U

Note he used steel cases. I wonder if brass cases might've made a difference?

There's multiple videos on making BP on youtube.

Here's a letter from the ATF on making Black Powder for personal use:
https://www.atf.gov/file/56586/download

On page 2 right column it states:
"Keep in mind that individuals do not need a manufacturer’s license if they are manufacturing black powder for their own personal, non-business use."

Thanks for the letter. Seems either the letter is outdated or my agent is misinformed.

If that's true, I'm going to work some up (BP.)

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Neo nimrod

· #84 · Jan 18, 2016

Hmmm, just for considerations. The 30-30 was the last black powder round made/& designed for smokless. 375 winchester, would be better still than the others listed. IMHO
Still working off those primers though..........

justin22885

· #85 · Jan 18, 2016

if i was going for a cartridge that i intended to use black powder in it would be 45 colt, 45 colt BP loads match smokeless 45acp loads out of equal barrel lengths, you dont need any more power than this

JOracle

Discussion Starter · #86 · Jan 18, 2016

drobs said:
Some reading on Sulfur production by the South during the Civil War:

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/how...tain-sulpher-for-gunpowder-manufacture.96029/

They used nitric acid to leach sulfur from iron pyrite.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id... sulphur from iron pyrite confederate&f=false

Another mention of refining sulfur:

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/black-powder-without-sulfur.96740/

Seems to me that the making BP from non-commercially procured ingredients take knowledge of history and chemistry.

True. There are numerous YouTube videos with guys making BP for fireworks.

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Marlin94

· #87 · Jan 18, 2016

JOracle said:
That's what I thought too.

Then I started shooting with SOF guys and realized that civilian shooters... we don't know the tenth part of what it takes to gunfight at high levels.

Probably like you, I've killed a zillion deer, elk, bears, hogs and the like. I've shot tens of thousands of rounds. But being skilled at combat, that's a very unique skill set. And, most Army, Navy and Marines don't do point-of-the-spear gunfighting. They have very rudimentary gunfighting skills (my son just finished Marine infantry training.)

Point being; more training equates to more survivability (and there's a lot of room to improve past being an average American shooter.)

And yet there rudimentary skills see them through, correct? So why do we need to perform like operators? We just need basic combat skills like most infantry men. SHTF isn't going to be Black Hawk Down. At least not in my opinion.

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JOracle

Discussion Starter · #88 · Jan 18, 2016

Popeye Doyle said:
Too few people invest in quality training to learn and hone their respective skill sets. Lots of $ spent on shiny new guns ... not enough $ spent on learning how to properly and effectively use those shiny new guns.

We're actually inclined, by voluntary self-delusion, to think that we're bad-asses because we own those firearms. How hard could they be to shoot? I hit the bullseye almost every time at the range!

In the words of a veteran Marine who was shooting with our SOF dudes last weekend, "I live in my box, mowing my lawn and taking care of the house. I start thinking that I'm a pretty big bad ass because of my past. Then I come out and do something like this and I see BIG holes in my ability to defend my family."

That's the bad news. Here's the good news: training with firearms, next level, is intensely fun and age is no barrier. A couple weekends ago, we were training with a 73 year old man and he was having the time of his life. This weekend, training with a 65 year old.

Next level training incorporates a lot of moving & shooting, shooting moving targets, detecting targets in weird environments, shooting weird guns from weird positions, shooting at night, shooting in ****ty weather, shooting under time pressure... it's like the world's best arcade game.

I went from being bored of my guns to a whole new passion for the craft.

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JOracle

Discussion Starter · #89 · Jan 18, 2016

Marlin94 said:
And yet there rudimentary skills see them through, correct? So why do we need to perform like operators? We just need basic combat skills like most infantry men. SHTF isn't going to be Black Hawk Down. At least not in my opinion.

No. The fundamentals of marksmanship teaches you nothing about:

- where to be in a fight.
- how to move (run) and shoot.
- how to use cover.
- how to work with other people.

(and about a thousand other skills that NEVER come up on the shooting range.)

You don't need to be any more skilled than you want to be. BUT, don't make the mistake I made: I thought I was most of the way to being a gunfighter (by shooting a ton and taking a bunch of professional range courses).

You may be better than a gang-banger, but not by as much as you might imagine. (Don't forget: gang-bangers don't mind being the "first-shooter" and you probably have the scruples to "target ID" before shooting.)

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Marlin94

· #90 · Jan 18, 2016

JOracle said:
No. The fundamentals of marksmanship teaches you nothing about:

- where to be in a fight.

- how to move (run) and shoot.

- how to use cover.

- how to work with other people.

(and about a thousand other skills that NEVER come up on the shooting range.)

You don't need to be any more skilled than you want to be. BUT, don't make the mistake I made: I thought I was most of the way to being a gunfighter (by shooting a ton and taking a bunch of professional range courses).

You may be better than a gang-banger, but not by as much as you might imagine. (Don't forget: gang-bangers don't mind being the "first-shooter" and you probably have the scruples to "target ID" before shooting.)

So why do so many marines and soldiers make it out of combat alive?

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JOracle

Discussion Starter · #91 · Jan 18, 2016

Marlin94 said:
So why do so many marines and soldiers make it out of combat alive?

A lot of reasons. (air support, NVGs, comms)

One big one: a large percentage of point-of-the-spear fighting is being done by guys who have trained a LOT (Rangers, SEALs, Delta, Marines, etc.) and who all passed rigorous selection.

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Popeye Doyle

· #92 · Jan 18, 2016

One of the most interesting skills I learned from Clint Smith was how to rack a slide off a belt, off a door frame, off a holster, and even off my leg. When I returned from TR and told some shooting acquaintances about this particular drill, they were incredulous about the necessity for practicing such an odd maneuver. I asked them to put their strong arms behind them, then get their sidearms into locked and loaded readiness (with Snap caps) using only their weak side appendages, thereby simulating a wound/disability/etc. No one could do it initially. Lesson learned.

If you have the means to train outdoors, do it. If you're limited to an indoor range, exploit the facility for what it offers. Otherwise, find a local instructor and learn some basic fundamentals for handguns/long guns/shotguns that transcend punching paper under static conditions.

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Marlin94

· #93 · Jan 18, 2016

JOracle said:
A lot of reasons. (air support, NVGs, comms)

One big one: a large percentage of point-of-the-spear fighting is being done by guys who have trained a LOT (Rangers, SEALs, Delta, Marines, etc.) and who all passed rigorous selection.

Also because their basic combat skills are more than sufficient. Normandy was taken by guys with even less skills than the modern Soldier. Way less skills. Military operators have a very special skill set that makes them very good at what they do but you don't need to be able to operate at their level to be combat efficient.

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Nattleby

· #94 · Jan 26, 2016

A lot of interesting ideas here in this thread.

Just wanted to point out that if there was a Long Term SHTF where modern ammunition was unobtainable, I think most people would revert to bows and crossbows rather than Black Powder guns. It's much easier to fashion a simple bow and/or arrows than trying to mix homemade black powder and percussion caps. I can carve an arrow or spear out of a sturdy stick faster than I can evaporate horse urine.... Just food for thought, before you go making elaborate plans for your "forever guns".

Use what you have instead of trying to rig up what you don't have.

Blowguns are also an interesting alternative.

I use to have a collapsible Hoyt Polaris Recurve Competition bow. Sold it at a yard sale many moons ago. Wish I had kept it.

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justin22885

· #95 · Jan 26, 2016

Nattleby said:
A lot of interesting ideas here in this thread.

Just wanted to point out that if there was a Long Term SHTF where modern ammunition was unobtainable, I think most people would revert to bows and crossbows rather than Black Powder guns. It's much easier to fashion a simple bow and/or arrows than trying to mix homemade black powder and percussion caps. I can carve an arrow or spear out of a sturdy stick faster than I can evaporate horse urine.... Just food for thought, before you go making elaborate plans for your "forever guns".

Use what you have instead of trying to rig up what you don't have.

Blowguns are also an interesting alternative.

I use to have a collapsible Hoyt Polaris Recurve Competition bow. Sold it at a yard sale many moons ago. Wish I had kept it.

you dont even have to go back to bows or crossbows in the traditional sense, slingbows are about as capable as any traditional bow and require a simple slingshot and some surgical rubber, they fit in a pocket and will kill deer... also air compression as a means of propelling arrows and bolts isnt out of the question either and are made up of only a few small parts.. i wouldnt mind building an air compressed bow myself with a tank that could be recharged with a manual pump

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merlinfire

· #96 · Jan 27, 2016

Nattleby said:
A lot of interesting ideas here in this thread.

Just wanted to point out that if there was a Long Term SHTF where modern ammunition was unobtainable, I think most people would revert to bows and crossbows rather than Black Powder guns. It's much easier to fashion a simple bow and/or arrows than trying to mix homemade black powder and percussion caps. I can carve an arrow or spear out of a sturdy stick faster than I can evaporate horse urine.... Just food for thought, before you go making elaborate plans for your "forever guns".

Use what you have instead of trying to rig up what you don't have.

Blowguns are also an interesting alternative.

I use to have a collapsible Hoyt Polaris Recurve Competition bow. Sold it at a yard sale many moons ago. Wish I had kept it.

I'm not sure I agree.

There's a reason why warfare favored the blackpowder musket and then rifle. It could outrange all bows but the longbow, and was easier to use.

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justin22885

· #97 · Jan 27, 2016

merlinfire said:
I'm not sure I agree.

There's a reason why warfare favored the blackpowder musket and then rifle. It could outrange all bows but the longbow, and was easier to use.

the range on them wasnt all that fantastic, especially when you consider most blackpowder muskets were smooth bore, i think it had more to do with training.. being able to hand one to the first green recruit that comes along and him be able to hit something with it... the skillset for a bow, even a crossbow requires a heck of a lot more training

theres also the case where certain types of weapons become easier to produce given material availability than others... lets look at materials available today, is it easier for someone with little experience in doing so to first be able to pick out the right piece of wood for a bowstave and then hand carve it into shape with planers and files?, or even take slices of it, glue and form it into a laminate?.... or is it easier to go to the hardware store, get a few plumbing parts and make a pipe shotgun?

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arizonafusilier

· #98 · Jan 27, 2016

Even to this day, making a person a reasonably competent firearms shooter (not expert) is a full days training. Maybe a week if you want to argue about it.

It took years for people to master the bow to the point where they could dominate the battlefield tactically.

That's why firearms were adopted. Logistically, they are several orders of magnitude more complex than the bow or crossbow. Something preppers contemplating TEOTWAWKI should keep in mind.

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