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@ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff love it! I keep seeing tweet after tweet of ppl who took one look at one Mastodon instance with rules they didn’t like & noped away from all of Mastodon, and the replies are all “Wow, never going there!” And for a couple days I tried to correct the misperceptions…then realized, “Ah well, they’ll find some social app they like, eventually.”

@azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff truth social maybe?? :(

@whonose123 @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff Twitter is Truth Social but with Elmo.

@azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff
Bah! I'm so selfish I want the ALL on this platform!

@azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff

Totally support disengaging with problematic birdsite people, but my concern with a lot of the sorts of posts you mention is not the person making them (Mastodon is ill-suited to them and they should stay away) but that they often couch their decisions in general terms like "Mastodon is difficult and confusing" or "Having many different servers is hopeless" or "lots of error messages and glitchy" which are likely to dissuade others from even looking at Mastodon instances.

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas

And for me, that's a cue for those of us who are knowledgable to step in and say:

What's confusing you?

What's giving you trouble with the fact there are many servers?

Right now there's tons of people adding, and this isn't a corporate site supported by advertising, so that's bound to happen sometimes.

And if they continue to not look at Mastodon, well, that's their loss more than ours, in my opinion.

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff if they are that easily persuaded by problematic birdsite people then perhaps it is for the best

@bri_seven @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff

So I think I would have agreed with you when I was younger. I don't now. My concern here is that many of the most competent people I know suffer horribly from imposter syndrome. They're exactly the sort of people I'd like to see on here and also many can be too easily discouraged by a few blowhards talking about how hard something is.

I'm certainly happy that the people who prominently tout their PhDs or books or whatever but aren't competent to set up a Mastodon account can't (I think we're better off without them) but I am concerned that people who might make a great contribution to the community might not even try if they see some blow hard with more ego than competence saying the account creation process is impossible to navigate.

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff here’s what i think about that

https://merveilles.town/@zens/105846474165967412

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff people do not have imposter syndrome, toxic environments do

@bri_seven @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff

I'm sorry, but if I take this to it's logical conclusion paired with the idea that those easily dissuaded from trying out Mastodon shouldn't do so you seem to be saying "people don't have impostor syndrome, environments do. Don't help people escape toxic environments that have tried to tell them they're less competent than they really are." I have to think that's not what you really mean but it does seem like the direction that argument goes when strung together.

If I replace "imposter syndrome" with "an artificially low estimate of their own competence" (which I think you would agree is the root problem based upon what you posted) the end result is the same: some very competent and interesting people can be dissuaded from doing things (in this case trying out Mastodon) because some bozo with an inflated ego says it's really hard when it's not.

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff all of this feels like it has a very simplistic view of individual agency. if some accounts on twitter are creating a toxic environment of people underestimating their own abilities to the point they decide not to even bother trying mastodon, what do you propose as a solution? go onto twitter and post counter propaganda? talk to each of them individually and convince them it is easier than they think? assassinate the toxic leaders?

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff this all comes off as rather paternalistic “i know better than you do what you need”.

what i am saying is if they are easily persuaded by toxic accounts how likely is it they will be persuaded by others?

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff furthermore i am saying, if these people are clever and skeptical and curious enough they will find out for themselves how hard something is

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff trying to coerce people onto mastodon if they don’t want to be here and they think it’s too hard? historically when those people eventually get here it doesn’t turn out so great because they don’t have emotional investment in it. they aren’t excited to be here they’re scared

@bri_seven @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff

Oh, that's not what I'm doing at all. What I'm doing is pushing back on people saying "Mastodon is too hard for anyone to use." If someone tries it and it's not for them, then it's not for them. But if someone tries it and doesn't like it, they shouldn't say it's impossible for everyone to use since that's obviously false (and easily falsifiable).

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff it’s no secret that there’s a bit of a learning curve to picking a server- it is strictly more difficult than a plain corporate social media sign on page because it’s like blind dating. a ton of work needs to go into improving this and i don’t think it helps anyone to hide it, or to use ablist slurs on people that found it challenging

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff what do you think it does to someone who is underestimating their abilities to see you call someone an “idiot” who they may believe to be smarter than them?

@bri_seven @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff

Sorry, I don't recall calling anyone an idiot (I did say "bozo" generically for people who claim that no one can use Mastodon). Are you referring to something in particular?

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff https://infosec.exchange/@IdiotBird/109339496556781357

@bri_seven @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff

Thank you, I was a bit passionate there and didn't realize that was the word I'd used. At some level though, I stand by it for those making those claims, especially from positions of authority when in fact some instances are doing just fine in terms of stability and there are ~4 million users. I would hope that would cause anyone reading it to reevaluate the competence of anyone making those claims.

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff i recognise we have a difference of opinion here, i would stick to acknowledging the challenges and gently helping people instead of calling people’s competence into question.

@bri_seven @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff

Look, I'm not going to stop pushing back on idiots saying Mastodon is "too hard" or "doomed to fail" regardless of whether you think that's parternalistic or not to my intended audience. I don't see a downside to it at the moment and the argument you've presented is not convincing to me unless I'm monstrously understanding something you're saying.

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff oh so, you still have a twitter account you regularly use?

@bri_seven @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff

​some of us are just bas-technerati. I'm totally nouveaux mastodon too.

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff i don’t know what that means

@bri_seven @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff

Oh, it's not very funny but it's a pun on "high" (haute) and "low" (bas) bourgeousie. I'm just saying that I'm not part of the technical elite so I'm totally a noob here and yes, still have a Twitter account.

@IdiotBird @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff
Having watched a couple of people in particular at the other place, railing against mastodon's 'failings', it seems to be deliberate in some cases. If their following (and maybe income) is based on a degree of constant outrage and conflict, a calmer and more thoughtful platform is never going to win them over. They seem threatened by the possibility of it winning their followers over.

@redmark @azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff

Yeah, I've seen some people straight up say that Mastodoon won't support their income model, which I have a lot more respect for than vague complaints. Also I think there's a lot of displaced anger which I get at some level but doesn't excuse falsehoods.

@azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff

David, I found myself doing the same thing, explaining this point or correcting that point. Not sure it's done much good. If they don't like it, that's OK.

@azzageddi @ajsadauskas @TeacherGriff
I just say, instead of 'server', think 'tribe'. Choose the tribe you most want to hang out with, and remember you can still connect with everyone else.

@ajsadauskas
Re bookmark feature: Twitter has bookmarks but it's so unintuitive in placement that most people never find it. (I consider this worse than not having it at all.)

Not intending to be splainy, just I use them and I constantly see people say the feature doesn't exist. It's so poorly advertised.

(It's under the share menu)

@ajsadauskas
I don't even know what the point is of having the feature when it's this poorly implemented.

@forestfae @ajsadauskas I use them quite heavily, but yeah the placement is very much counter-intuitive.

@forestfae @ajsadauskas Also you can't remove just ONE bookmark, so either a bookmark you made by mistake is there forever or you have to delete the whole list.

@irina @forestfae @ajsadauskas You can remove individual bookmarks by clicking the share symbol and then choosing "remove tweet from bookmarks", but that's not very intuitive either.

@chrpistorius @forestfae @ajsadauskas Good to know in case I ever to back to actually use twitter again (rather than reading and very occasionally replying, what I'm doing now)

@chrpistorius @irina @forestfae @ajsadauskas
I use the bookmarks, but had no idea, this is the way to delete one.
This is the most counterintuitive method, anybody could ever have come up with.

@forestfae @ajsadauskas I actually use them! But then forget they're there and have to go searching again. But give me time—I've only been on there 14 years, and that's nowhere near long enough to understand why the design is as it is.

It's also horrifying how few people there know there's a chronological view, so they're not even able to see the tweets they want to.

@forestfae @ajsadauskas I feel that we should use browser bookmarks not app-specific bookmarks; however I don't know a browser that has a good bookmarks system, like delicious used to be. My Chrome bookmarks are a terrible mess because Chrome uses a hierarchy rather than tags.

@sswam @ajsadauskas I wish that you had a good option for that for yourself, but that would actually be much MUCH worse for me.

@forestfae @ajsadauskas
yes, i use/used bookmarks all the time on birdsite but when i got onto mastodon web interface, was just so pleased to see the button sitting there under each toot

@estrapade @ajsadauskas I assume you’re referring to Bluesky? While it was organized by Twitter, it’s actually a non-profit initiative that Twitter has no controlling stake in. Whatever happens to Twitter, Bluesky is its own thing. I imagine research is still going forward, but still… it’s kinda reinventing the wheel at this point.

@deriamis @estrapade @ajsadauskas except that Bluesky protocol has some clear advantages over ActivityPub on the identity front. On the other hand, on the posts side, it is mostly a reimplementation of Twitter model without any meaningful thought to generalizing.

@osma @estrapade @ajsadauskas Fair enough regarding the advantages, if indeed they *are* advantages. I’m personally not convinced that a strong identity association with posted content is always a good thing, and I just don’t see something being developed to support corporatized social media making that optional. There’s nothing in ActivityPub that prevents adding it as an option, either. The existing culture around the protocol just hasn’t made it worthwhile.

@deriamis @estrapade @ajsadauskas on the early nineties a lot of people didn't see enabling "corporatized presence" being all that valuable on the Internet. Fortunately though, the web didn't prevent it, either.

@deriamis @estrapade @ajsadauskas before commercial interests required it, there were no standardized and generally supported means to encrypt any transaction of information either. You may not like the concept of having commercial entities on your Internet, but you wouldn't have one without them.

@osma @estrapade @ajsadauskas @osma @estrapade @ajsadauskas I don’t dislike commercial entities on the Internet. I simply don’t want to be required to give them control over my online identity. I also don’t want them to have a monopoly over what information I can access. Capitalism isn’t necessarily evil, but its goals are often in tension with what would be good for society as a whole. I don’t want a world where the only choice is what makes someone else money.

@deriamis @estrapade @ajsadauskas well in that case we're in agreement. As far as implementation, I'd like to see a return to self-owned domains. I think identities are in general valuable and would prefer people to not only have more control over theirs, but responsibility over the outcomes, too.

@deriamis @estrapade @ajsadauskas bluesky should consider Federating, with the REAL fediverse..