Ambidextrous Horse Archery

Thegn Ansgar · Aug 21, 2016

About four years ago I asked a question in this thread; http://historum.com/war-military-history/47958-horse-archery.html relating to ambidextrous horse archery. It started off getting sidetracked because I wrote "significantly dominant force on the battlefield". Improper wording on my part, as even then I knew that horse archers by themselves could not dominate battlefields. However, that was not the point of that thread, and it isn't the point of this thread either. The point of that thread was in asking if anyone had come across sources describing ambidextrous archery apart from what I mentioned in the initial post.

To save everyone from having to go through that thread, I simply mentioned a list of names of specific Chinese individuals, who were noted (in their biographies) as being capable of ambidextrous archery. Such individuals as: as Dong Zhuo, Li Shimin, Li Guang, Chen An, Yue Fei, Fu Shuwei, Heba Yue, Yuwen Xianhe, Qiliang Meng, Yuwen Xin, Yu Qingze, Zhang Jie, and Qiang Bin.

As I rightfully said in that thread, and will repeat here, most of these names will mean nothing to the people reading this. I suspect a few folks will recognize Dong Zhuo, Li Shimin, Li Guang, and Yue Fei, but that's about it. The rest are completely unknown in the west, and even among people who study Chinese history, they might not recognize those names either.

To get to the point however, I've discovered a fair amount of examples relating to ambidextrous horse archery. Belisarius brought up Laszlo Botos' statements in "The Homeland Reclaimed" from the Journal of Hungarian studies in the previous thread, which states;

"The Greeks called the Scythians "horse archers" because they were so skillful with their small composite bow. These horse-archers were ambidextrous and extremely accurate and their arrows traveled a great distance (over 500 meters). A practiced archer could shoot around twenty arrows a minute."

In addition, I've discovered Renate Rolle who wrote "The World of the Scythians" wherein he says;

"Their proficiency in archery, -- they were ambidextrous in the handling of the bow -- and their way of living and fighting on horseback earned the Scythians the Greek term 'horse-archers'. They seem to have achieved a remarkable degree of accuracy, as is confirmed by a series of burial finds."

But the two biggest finds I've come across are from the 'Wu Bei Yao Lue' (Principle Outlines of Military Preparedness) by Cheng Ziyi (1638) which states in the "Instructions for Horseback Archery" section:

"In today's parade-grounds, just ‘shooting over the stirrup’ is regarded as sufficient. But on the battlefield, you may get a sudden enemy charge from the right side. In that case it goes without saying that you need to shoot ambidextrously."

As well as Taybugha Al-Ashrafi Al-Baklamishi Al-Yunani's archery manual "Saracen Archery" written in 1368 describes ten types of shots:

1. To left flank, forward and downward parallel with thigh.
2. To left flank, forward and upward.
3. In horizontal plane (target roughly level with left shoulder).
4. Ahead with bow, upper limb to right, canted above horse's neck.
5. To right flank, forward and downward.
6. To left flank rear, upward or downward, with bow canted over horse's croup.
7. To left flank rear, upward or downward, with bow vertical.
8. Jarmaki (shooting with drawing hand behind head at nape of neck) of two kinds, to the left and right.
9. Beneath the horse's neck from right to left.
10. Beneath the horse's neck from left to right.

You can also see in these miniatures, archers shooting left handed.

Hopefully you found this interesting.

Lord Oda Nobunaga · Aug 22, 2016

Amazingly horse archery is something that I have never attempted. I wish I could get some sort of actual experience and first hand knowledge to try this. But my riding skills (few) are far better than my archery skills (none).

Ichon · Aug 22, 2016

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a common ability though probably not universal. Ambidextrous isn't that difficult with practice for most people but some % of population does seem to find it extra diffcult.

Lord Oda Nobunaga · Aug 22, 2016

I say amazingly because I have ridden horses for much of my life.

Thegn Ansgar · Aug 22, 2016

Ichon said:
I wouldn't be surprised if it was a common ability though probably not universal. Ambidextrous isn't that difficult with practice for most people but some % of population does seem to find it extra diffcult.

That's generally my opinion as well. It likely was not a universal ability that every horse archer had, but it was probably a common one that was trained and practiced for. Otherwise it gives horse archers a huge glaring weakness that you'd think all capable commanders would've exploited; engage them from their right with fast lancers and other light cavalry. If the horse archers had to turn their horses around 180 degrees just to engage a force on their right flank, that greatly limits their mobility and tactical effectiveness.

Thegn Ansgar · May 26, 2021

Just updating this to show;

Justin Ma (English translator of Gao Ying's 'Shi Dao' (Way of Archery) military manual) demonstrates shooting a verified 123 lb bow ambidextrously.

pugsville · May 26, 2021

Thegn Ansgar said:
That's generally my opinion as well. It likely was not a universal ability that every horse archer had, but it was probably a common one that was trained and practiced for. Otherwise it gives horse archers a huge glaring weakness that you'd think all capable commanders would've exploited; engage them from their right with fast lancers and other light cavalry. If the horse archers had to turn their horses around 180 degrees just to engage a force on their right flank, that greatly limits their mobility and tactical effectiveness.

Archery justis not siognifncat in sucha situation, you have turn you horse, get your sword and shield before the enemey closes anyway. Or evade.firing a few arrows will not change such a tatcical situation. You have bith hands enaged on abow when the melee starts you lose,.

Ichon · May 26, 2021

pugsville said:
Archery justis not siognifncat in sucha situation, you have turn you horse, get your sword and shield before the enemey closes anyway. Or evade.firing a few arrows will not change such a tatcical situation. You have bith hands enaged on abow when the melee starts you lose,.

I've wondered about command & control of ranged cavalry a few times because of the wheeling and target rich environment if they did move quite near the enemy it would take quite a bit of coordination to move as a unit. Ideally, someone with the power to shout a command or simply lead by example could see a flanking attack and have the horse archers moving before it hit but with some delay it is quite possible some lancers or other cavalry could catch up before the horse archers were fully able to move away but at the same time, a dense mass of horse archers might only lose a few men on the periphery if they started moving quickly enough and then being able to aim ambidextrously would be quite an advantage as they would get nearly point-blank targets.

From other things I've read recording some Arab & Persian sources on fighting horses archers, it was generally agreed that if lancers could get close enough the horse archers were at a disadvantage but it seemed to require a lot of work, hiding behind dust clouds, luring horse archers too close to an enemy formation that is hiding lancers with their horse lying down, or some other strategems using terrain or horse archers mixed with lancers or more likely most war-trained bow cavalry used both bow and lance so the point about when to put the bow away and hold the lance is probably important.

Maintaining some tight formation should still offer an advantage for lancers compared to horse archers who would need to ride more loosely with gaps in the formation so central riders could aim out or variations on caracoles while lancers could advance into a group of enemy almost like a spearwall with 2 ranks of lancers and the 2nd rank covering for the 1st rank.

Thegn Ansgar · May 29, 2021

pugsville said:
Archery justis not siognifncat in sucha situation, you have turn you horse, get your sword and shield before the enemey closes anyway. Or evade.firing a few arrows will not change such a tatcical situation. You have bith hands enaged on abow when the melee starts you lose,.

Cheng Ziyi disagrees with you. I'm more inclined to believe someone who has experienced the situation than someone who hasn't.

Th'AnchoriticSybarite · May 30, 2021

As one who has no qualifications in either archery or horsemanship (in Boy Scouts my only attempt at archery resulted in holes in the ground and my one attempt at horsemanship ended in falling off the horse and being dragged with my foot in the stirrup). It seems to me that most bows would require one to practice and learn to shoot from one given side or the other. A short bow which must be used from horseback, would allow one to switch sides. HOWEVER as it is a SHORT bow there would be no difficulty from switching from one side to the other without switching hands. So while I suppose it would be POSSIBLE to do so why would one even comtemplate doing so.

pugsville · May 30, 2021

Thegn Ansgar said:
Cheng Ziyi disagrees with you. I'm more inclined to believe someone who has experienced the situation than someone who hasn't.

Blind appeal to authority without reason.

Ichon · May 30, 2021

Th'AnchoriticSybarite said:
As one who has no qualifications in either archery or horsemanship (in Boy Scouts my only attempt at archery resulted in holes in the ground and my one attempt at horsemanship ended in falling off the horse and being dragged with my foot in the stirrup). It seems to me that most bows would require one to practice and learn to shoot from one given side or the other. A short bow which must be used from horseback, would allow one to switch sides. HOWEVER as it is a SHORT bow there would be no difficulty from switching from one side to the other without switching hands. So while I suppose it would be POSSIBLE to do so why would one even comtemplate doing so.

To get a full draw on the bow- you can move a short bow to the alternate side but even with flexible lower back body mechanics limit both the draw length and coverage you can achieve on the far side, you can aim forward with some degree off to the side but not fully sideways when holding a bow with the opposite arm. Basically 270 degress out of 360 while if you are ambidextrous you can get about 350 degrees with only a small area straight behind that an archer couldn't cover.

Thegn Ansgar · Jun 23, 2021

pugsville said:
Blind appeal to authority without reason.

Appeal to an authority who actually lived during a time of war, and fought and trained people on how to fight with bow, sword and other weapons. That is to say, someone who is actually an authority on the topic.

Yeah, of course I'm going believe him over you. It's a primary source.

Th'AnchoriticSybarite · Jun 23, 2021

Let me first say that I have no expertise in archery of any kind. The one time I even attempted to shoot an arrow at a Boy Scout jamboree...well I would have caused serious injury had anyone had the misfortune of witnessing the attempt. They could easily have laughed themselves into the emergency room.

Years ago I worked at a furniture assembly plant for several years. After a good while on the job, I experienced a revelation regarding handedness. I am left handed. One of my fellow employees was a master carpenter--he could build a desk, wardrobe, etc by simply looking at a picture of the piece. He though was right handed.

My revelation was that I and every leftie I've ever known, faced with the need to drive a nail or screw a screw, would simply pick up the hammer or screwdriver/drill with the hand opposite where the screw/nail needed to be driven. To your left, use your right hand...to the right use your left. A righty given the same situation would superglue his toes to the ceiling so he could hang upside down and use his right hand and avoid using his left.

I bring this up because I can see an inherent bias against ambidexterity by right handed people who make up the overwhelming majority of the population.

Ichon · Jun 24, 2021

Th'AnchoriticSybarite said:
Let me first say that I have no expertise in archery of any kind. The one time I even attempted to shoot an arrow at a Boy Scout jamboree...well I would have caused serious injury had anyone had the misfortune of witnessing the attempt. They could easily have laughed themselves into the emergency room.

My revelation was that I and every leftie I've ever known, faced with the need to drive a nail or screw a screw, would simply pick up the hammer or screwdriver/drill with the hand opposite where the screw/nail needed to be driven. To your left, use your right hand...to the right use your left. A righty given the same situation would superglue his toes to the ceiling so he could hang upside down and use his right hand and avoid using his left.

I bring this up because I can see an inherent bias against ambidexterity by right handed people who make up the overwhelming majority of the population.

I rode horses nearly before I could walk but my experience with archery is way more limited. I am good enough to consistently hit a straw bale at 50 yards from a standing position and have actually tried mounted archery a few times where I have nearly the same accuracy when aiming to the front 45 degree arc of my left hand which holds the bow but turning past 45 to the left or switching hands definitely requires practice along with releasing the arrow on target while moving at any speed. While mounted, at a walk if I drew at 50 yards, I could usually hit between 40-45 but lost about 5 yards/2 strides of the horse while I tried to balance, exhale, and release all at the same time. I never tried releasing an arrow at faster than a walk though I rode holding a knocked arrow at a gallop several times, I just didn't trust myself to draw and release at that speed.

That said, when I was younger I broke my right arm and learned to play tennis and raquetball left handed so for certain things I am fairly ambidextrous. I can't throw very well or write left handed but I can swing bats, any type of racquet, or hit volleyballs left handed very comfortably. I fracture my arm and left ribs in a skating accident last summer and really put that to the test while I've also taught a few friends how to hit switch handed because I find it is very useful to correct problems with mechanics playing tennis as you have to really think about where your feet are, body position, etc when learning to hit with your weak side, then when you go back to hitting with your strong side you almost always end up better.

Niobe · Jun 24, 2021

@Thegn Ansgar ... do you know if Chinese horse training included reliance on leg cues? Typically anyone who is in the saddle for hours with the same mount (or 3 or 4) will find the horse develops the ability to anticipate all sorts of directional signals just by feeling the rider tensing different muscles through the legs and seat. We train horses for steering leg cues today - do you know if there was the same sort of effort made with this era you are referring to in your OP? If so... the reins may not be the only method of directing the horse.

All the images in your original post show the reins up over the body - or implied that they are held in the elbow... modern mounted archers drop the reins onto the pommel or horn. It just made me curious.

Ichon · Jun 25, 2021

Niobe said:
@Thegn Ansgar ... do you know if Chinese horse training included reliance on leg cues? Typically anyone who is in the saddle for hours with the same mount (or 3 or 4) will find the horse develops the ability to anticipate all sorts of directional signals just by feeling the rider tensing different muscles through the legs and seat. We train horses for steering leg cues today - do you know if there was the same sort of effort made with this era you are referring to in your OP? If so... the reins may not be the only method of directing the horse.

All the images in your original post show the reins up over the body - or implied that they are held in the elbow... modern mounted archers drop the reins onto the pommel or horn. It just made me curious.

Considering we know steppe archers rode without reins and many trained or were employed by various Chinese dynasties I would be incredibly surprised if most Chinese cavalry did not also develop that method- especially archers, it is way more difficult to ride and shoot holding a bow + arrow + reins than simply guide the horse via pressure while holding a bow + arrow.

That said, it isn't necessary that ALL Chinese cavalry did this... there were often conscipted cavalry and many dynasties with weak cavalry traditions where perhaps only the most elite cavalry did this regularly but it is a fairly basic horsemanship skill to be honest so the standards would have to be extremely low not to be able to do this for any full-time cavalry.

Arminius · Jun 26, 2021

Ichon said:
I've also taught a few friends how to hit switch handed because I find it is very useful to correct problems with mechanics playing tennis as you have to really think about where your feet are, body position, etc when learning to hit with your weak side, then when you go back to hitting with your strong side you almost always end up better.

i found the same when I boxed, and started training ambidextrously (of course there are also tactical reasons ambidextrousness is useful)

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