Breech plug on India-made barrel

[dave_person]

Here are some photos of the gun along with 2 original English fowlers that are over 250 years old. The India-made Ketland officier's fusil is in the middle. The bottom gun may have been a private purchase fusil by an officer serving in North America.

Here are some more detailed photos along with an original English fowler.

The English gun on the bottom was export quality and would not have been terribly expensive at the time.

dave

 

[Pukka Bundook]

No comparison, is there Dave?

 

[FlinterNick]

No comparison, is there Dave?

This is what I don’t like about Indian made repro muskets. They pale in comparison to other repro’s and originals, yet the prices upwards near 800-$900 seem to attract buyers who can get much better quality for less work.

Lately I’ve been turning away projects, they’re just too time consuming and often fail.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
In a different thread about India-made guns the OP wrote that he could not believe the original British muskets were made any better than the India guns. That really blew my mind. Anyway, I found out a bit more about this "Ketland Officer's fusil". It seems Middlesex Village Traders developed the gun using an original as a model. They have photos of the original on their web site. The gun they are calling a Ketland Officer's fusil is almost certainly a New England made militia musket that was shortened. If you look at page 52 of Grinslade's book on American fowlers, you will see a New England fowler with identical trigger guard and side plate with the same engraving. It is a French style guard and the side plate is a rustic style used by some New England gun makers during the late 18th century. The only things British on the original gun are the Ketland export lock (flat lock plate mind you) and the Birmingham barrel. The lock is probably from the end of the 18th or early 19th century.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi,
In a different thread about India-made guns the OP wrote that he could not believe the original British muskets were made any better than the India guns. That really blew my mind. Anyway, I found out a bit more about this "Ketland Officer's fusil". It seems Middlesex Village Traders developed the gun using an original as a model. They have photos of the original on their web site. The gun they are calling a Ketland Officer's fusil is almost certainly a New England made militia musket that was shortened. If you look at page 52 of Grinslade's book on American fowlers, you will see a New England fowler with identical trigger guard and side plate with the same engraving. It is a French style guard and the side plate is a rustic style used by some New England gun makers during the late 18th century. The only things British on the original gun are the Ketland export lock (flat lock plate mind you) and the Birmingham barrel. The lock is probably from the end of the 18th or early 19th century.

dave

yea I saw that thread Dave, I’m surprised that some folks think Indian made guns are higher quality than the originals, that one blew my mind as well.

The Locks don’t even compare in quality.

I was working on a middlesex trading Long Land Bess Lock and I was surprised that it was even considered a long land lock, the geometry was far off that of an original Bess, even the Pedersoli Grice is closer in design to the 1755 locks. The internals were very soft, and needed serious case hardening. The frizzen and Mainspring were excessively heavy, and grinding the frizzen foot and tumbler foot away like an eraser. The screws were stripping the plate away too, with the plate not being hardened correctly.

For some reason they used a shorter sear spring too brining the screw out from under the cock.

I ended up giving the lock back with an apology because I just didn’t have the time or resources to make the lock more authentic and tuned.

The biggest issue was the stock was being so oversized in weight, with the 46 inch barrel. The entire gun weighed almost 13lbs. My Rifle Shoppe Bess that I’m working on right now weighs maybe 10.5 lbs in total weight.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Nick,
I am starting on an upgraded pattern 1730 Bess this week. It will have the stronger trigger guard, brass nose band, and double bridled lock but the rest will be the first pattern King's musket. The metal parts are from TRS so I have to build the lock. I am not using a TRS stock blank rather my own black walnut blank. I could not find a reasonably price English walnut blank long enough for the gun so opted for the American walnut. However, the wood is very dense for black walnut and I can stain it to look very similar to English walnut using a wash of yellow aniline dye. I'll post a thread about it soon.

dave

 

[Kansas Jake]

Dave, there is probably a special place in Hell for folks who take advantage like your friend was taken advantage of on that gun. Maybe they can spend eternity repairing similar guns with a pocket knife and a soft screw driver.

 

[spudnut]

If they could just take some bulk out of the stocks ,they would look so much better.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Spudnut,
Yes, that would help somewhat but in this case the whole concept of the gun is false. Joe Puleo, who has researched and written about the Ketland family, wrote some years ago that the Ketland-made officer's fusil is a myth, albeit a persistent one.

dave

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Dave and all,
A year or two ago, I saw the following guns up for auction in the UK, and discussed them with Joe Puleo.
We came to the conclusion that these, Could be considered as bona-fide officer's fusils.
You will note in the photos, how one has more wear commensurate with service life.
The other appears to have "stayed at home" and is in better condition.
These were I believe made as a pair of sporting guns, but with the intention of being taken on active service with the owner.

They are both rather nice, but neither myself or Joe had the spare funds at the time!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

A couple more photos for you;

 

[Artificer]

Hi and thanks folks,
What looks like corrosion on the bottom of the barrel and at the breech in the photos above is actually the mastic filler stuck to the barrel. I took the lock apart yesterday and found that the bridle and sear screw were not tightening down all the way, When I did that, it pinched and locked the tumbler in place. So the tumbler is wider than the space for it under the bridle. The tumbler spindle that goes in the bridle has a flat on it. The lock plate is thicker than the round tumbler post so the squared shoulder is buried within the hole in the lock plate, which is loose. That means when the flint cock is tightened down, it grinds against the lock plate. The lock plate is so thick that I can consider it just a raw mass of steel to be reshaped. In the process of examining the lock I could not help laughing and thinking of Jean Shephard's funny story about his first car in high school with the balsa wood transmission and bald tires on which the dealer burned in tread with a soldering iron.
dave

As I'm sure you know, not being able to tighten down lock screws all the way is a somewhat common problem even on original locks and a common problem on repro locks. Tumbler binding under the bridle is not as common, but it shows up too often. However, the squared shoulder of the Tumbler that goes inside the lock plate is uncommon and/or at most sometimes one sees the inside of the Cock/Hammer rubs a little on the face of the lock plate.

The customer is very lucky to have you working on the gun, as I'm certain you will get the problems corrected.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Dave and all,
A year or two ago, I saw the following guns up for auction in the UK, and discussed them with Joe Puleo.
We came to the conclusion that these, Could be considered as bona-fide officer's fusils.
You will note in the photos, how one has more wear commensurate with service life.
The other appears to have "stayed at home" and is in better condition.
These were I believe made as a pair of sporting guns, but with the intention of being taken on active service with the owner.
They are both rather nice, but neither myself or Joe had the spare funds at the time!

Pukka,

Great Pics and thank you for sharing them!!

I see the roller bearings under the feather springs on the locks, but are there also rollers under the bottom leg of the Hammers/Frizzens? My eyes may be playing tricks on me again.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Here are some photos of the gun along with 2 original English fowlers that are over 250 years old. The India-made Ketland officier's fusil is in the middle. The bottom gun may have been a private purchase fusil by an officer serving in North America.

The English gun on the bottom was export quality and would not have been terribly expensive at the time.

dave

Would it not have been terribly expensive because it did not have wire and other inlays?

Gus

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Gus,

Nice to talk to you!
Yes the locks have double rollers, but one was replaced in working life. Iron furniture was always more expansive than brass..

 

[dave_person]

Hi Richard,
Nice guns! My mention of Joe's comment refers just to Ketland produced guns. There are other examples of officer's fusils but the attribution to Ketland is in doubt. The examples folks cite usually are guns with Ketland export locks not Ketland-made guns. It is also useful to note that there was strong disagreement within the British high command during the 18th century whether officers should have fusils and be distracted from leading their troops by loading and shooting. William Howe supported it, Clinton and Burgoyne did not.

dave

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Dave,

I didn't misunderstand you re. fusils, I was just posting these photos here to show what they should look like, as there is a common
misunderstanding that any piece of non-ordnance rubbish was an "Officer's fusil".

I also think that many officers took a fusee or fusil with them purely for sporting purposes, but may have had a sling attached for convenience in transport.

 

[FlinterNick]

A friend of mine just unbreeched an Indian made Bess, took him weeks until he figured out it was right threaded, not to the left. He said it came off easily when he turned it to the right side.