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Some years ago, when cryptocurrencies weren’t talked about as much, we were considering announcing a parody cryptocurrency for April’s Fools. It would be called ThinkCoin, and the joke was that all the value associated with it was in the mind of the user, with no software to back it in the real world.
This was ridiculous, of course, playing on the idea that actual cryptocurrencies have no actual value either. This should tell you that we never thought seriously about entering that space. These days, however, with the incredible hype and attention that cryptocurrencies, and more recently NFTs, are currently getting, we couldn’t even go for such a joke, for fear that it would be taken seriously.
Since the discussion around cryptocurrencies has reached such an extreme, I think it is high time to clarify Vivaldi’s position.
Cryptocurrency – is it a revolution?
Cryptocurrency has been touted by many as a revolution in currency, the future of investment, and a breakthrough technology. But if you look beyond the hype, you’ll find nothing more than a pyramid scheme posing as currency.
It’s basically a digital commodity, though one without government backing or banking system support. Claiming to be the new digital currency of the internet, cryptocurrencies promise decentralization and freedom from governments.
Each cryptocurrency typically follows a certain recipe to ensure that the founders create a lot of wealth, a way to distribute the currency to give it legitimacy, and some story on how it is different from all the others.
But since cryptocurrencies are too volatile to be used as an actual currency, people treat it as a sort of investment scheme. The problem is that to extract actual money from the system you have to find someone willing to buy the tokens you are holding. And this is only likely to happen as long as they believe they will be able to sell them on to someone who’ll pay even more for them. And so on, and so on.
If at any point one stops being able to find people willing to buy those tokens on just the promise of them being worth more in the future, the whole scheme might well come crashing down, with the value of all tokens going to zero.
An environmental disaster
The energy consumption of cryptocurrency is another major concern. The energy usage of bitcoin alone is staggering, consuming as much electricity as some countries. And this is likely to keep increasing as the technology behind it does not and cannot scale in any reasonable way.
For obvious reasons, that sort of energy consumption isn’t good for the environment as the energy could clearly be spent better somewhere else. This is also true if it’s renewable energy since it could instead be used to displace fossil fuels in other applications.
While so many of us are trying our best to reduce our carbon footprints, it feels counterproductive to indulge in technology that undoes that hard work.
The entire crypto fantasy is designed to lure you into a system that is extremely inefficient, consumes vast amounts of energy, uses large amounts of hardware that could better be spent doing something else and will quite often result in the average person losing any money they might put into it.
Jon von Tetzchner
Where we stand
At the time of writing (January 2022), there are over 8,000 cryptocurrencies in existence. Compare this to the 180 actual currencies worldwide that can be used as legal tender.
The most baffling part of this cryptocurrency craze is that it’s still unclear if there is any viable use case or a meaningful way to value it. Without this, it is reduced to merely an overcomplicated slot machine for those with money to burn.
Yet, despite all the negatives, there will still be those who opt to participate. And for those who end up owning some crypto tokens that they’ll need to manage, the browser might seem a logical place to keep track of it all. Indeed, some of our competitors have done just that and now provide crypto-wallets in the browser.
Since Vivaldi is all about offering choices and customizability, you might expect us to include this functionality, as well. But in good conscience, we cannot.
The entire crypto fantasy is designed to lure you into a system that is extremely inefficient, consumes vast amounts of energy, uses large amounts of hardware that could better be spent doing something else and will quite often result in the average person losing any money they might put into it.
When you strip away the hype, these virtual currencies have very real repercussions for people, society, and the environment. By creating our own cryptocurrency or supporting cryptocurrency-related features in the browser, we would be helping our users to participate in what is at best a gamble and at worst a scam. It would be unethical, plain and simple.
We refuse to dress these scams up as opportunities. Instead, we encourage you to treat them with the skepticism they deserve. This may be a game for some curious crypto-investors and wealthy speculators, but for those unlucky enough to get caught out by the pyramid scheme, it could be devastating.
It’s just not worth it.
What are your thoughts on Vivaldi’s stance or cryptocurrencies in general? Let us know in the comments below.
Comments are closed
My respect! Will retweet your clear message. Thank You.
Coin mining is the "new" technology to increase more and more the world wide carbon footprint.
Vivaldi should never be part of such system.
Great and clear article, as usual.
A browser wallet can be useful only if you can buy something real in a store but now it is not possible in all the most part of stores so it is only a high risk investment and high resources consumption, not needed.
I think cryptocurrency is potential much more than just a pyramid scheme. It is still in its infancy. Problems like energy use and transaction speed/cost are soluble.
The ₿ Word.
I would never recommend it. In my opinion, is better to invest in TSLA, which has real assets and great potential, with a stated mission of accelerating the transition to sustainable energy. I don't see any better investment, with a good balance between risk and ROI.
This is not investment advice. Do your own due diligence, stock prices can go down as well as up, etc.
@pesala: I see the real market share (the one that deals with real companies) same as Jon sees crypto - a scam, pyramid scheme, or gambling.
There is no way that TSLA is worth that much. They still didn't reach a milion cars a year, and they supposedly worth much more than companies that sell 10 milion cars a year...
Same as Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook (Meta) and Google (Alphabet) are not worth as they showed in that scamy market share. I think that is some kind of American scam, where imagine that, only American companies worth so much more than others...
I think same of crypto currencies, at least for more of them. Especially the newer ones.
As I'm concerned, my religion forbids gambling (it's clear why), so I would never gamble with my money that I earned by hard working.
@senja said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
So does mine, but investing for the long term in successful businesses after due diligence is not gambling. Day-trading in volatile stocks is gambling.
Buying Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies is risky, and is not something I would recommend, as it is beyond my area of knowledge. Do some research into ARK Invest (an ETF Fund Manager) to separate the facts from the FUD.
Tesla is so much more than a car company. You obviously have not done any due diligence. They also made the world's biggest banana.
@pesala: Tesla stock is grossly overvalued.
Yes, they do have a lot of assets and actual products, but little of their technology is actually unique and they are not a high quality manufacturer (all the established automakers are far more efficient and produce higher quality). Hell, a lot is others' technology or together by Tesla.
Yes, the entire market is overvalued at the moment, but Tesla especially so.
@tams80 said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
Including about $2 billion in bitcoin from $1.5 billion invested. They now accept Dogecoin only for several products in their online shop. Bitcoin has some environmental issues that need fixing before Tesla will again accept it for payment.
@tams80 said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
Your knowledge is out of date already.
Investing in *Coin and *Chain is like gambling, with fraud, robbery, tax evasion, vanished wallets and so on.
@doctorg said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
Just like good ol' regular money then![🙂](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="32" height="32"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg> ":)")
Good to hear![🙂](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="32" height="32"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg> ":)")
Totally agree with you there, its good that Vivaldi is backing sanity.
Wow this is a really terrible take.
First, I'm sick of hearing the environmental argument. Ripple, Hedera both use less energy per transaction than VISA.
You want a use case? Remember the financial crisis of 2008? Could have been entirely avoided if distributed ledger technology was available. Why? Because the root cause was short-term liquidity and trust issues -- both solved by DLT.
If you have DLT running property titling, credit scores, and fractionalized NFTs with smart contracts for mortgages, you can get a mortgage same-day in many cases. And with credit scores, you don't need to worry about things like Experian data breaches and identity theft.
As for "the revolution", it does have the potential of restoring the American Dream. That is, a world where those with the lowest incomes see the greatest income growth -- bucking the trend of seeing those with the highest incomes seeing the greatest income growth that's been going on since at least the 1980s.
@frattaro: Yeah- no. The financial crisis was caused by too few regulations and control over a financial system, the last thing it needed was the entire thing run by a completely inscrutable, unregulatable system where you can't even reverse a fraudulent transaction. It would've made everything unimaginably worse as the crisis could've been manipulated to make more money for a few people and there'd have been nothing we could do to stop it.
Cryptocoins is a solution without a problem, and no amount of fantasy scenarios will change that.
@frattaro: The American Dream was nothing more than a talking point in the first place, so no it's not a revolution. Unless you count a fringe, which isn't happening because Crypto is propped and paraded around by the richest of the rich. This is nothing more than a bunch of hypotheticals to justify that it's all awful right now.
Lately I have been hearing ads on radio here for setting your pension into Crypto. That is one of the uglier cases I have seen. People´s pensions need to be secure. Clearly some people just do not care and as long as they will make a buck, they will do anything.
But I recently sent 200 USDT to New Zealand for a transaction fee of 2c. Arrived within 5 minutes. That's neither scam nor Ponzi. Everything can be abused, even crypto, and yes, crypto can and is being speculated on heavily, mainly because it's new. As soon as the use/acceptance increases, the peaks will level out.
Happy days.
I registered just to be able to post this: GREAT MOVE! Cryptos are plague so thank you!
@nalf: I logged in just to be able to upvote your comment![🙂](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="32" height="32"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg> ":)")
@elc00l: Classic argument from coiners: "you don't undertsand". Get lost.
Sad to see such a misinformed post. For one, you should separate between Bitcoin and crypto. Yes, there are a lot of scams and pyramide-like schemes in crypto, but Bitcoin is something else. The usual FUD recirculated (pyramide scheme, no value, environmental disaster) is just that, recirculated FUD. I expected more from the people behind Vivaldi.
I will not stop using Vivaldi because of this, but it certainly made me loose some of the respect I've had for the project.
@sveino: Just to be clear here, this post was not misinformed. The point has been extensively researched by several Vivaldi engineers over the last few years years, myself included. If these points were just FUD, they would have gone away as cryptocurrencies demonstrate that they are indeed useful tech. They have not demonstrated this, the environmental damages are demonstrable and the people who come out in favor of the whole thing own cryptocurrencies themselves, meaning they have a vested interest in them succeeding.
@julien_picalausa: A research colleague of me used to say: What's your competence? Prove it!
My competence:
What's your competence?
@sveino https://www.reuters.com/technology/how-big-is-bitcoins-carbon-footprint-2021-05-13/
@catweazle: Bitcoin Net Zero (by Nic Carter and Ross Stevens)
https://assets.website-files.com/614e11526f6630959fc98679/616df63a27a7ec339f5e6a80_NYDIG-BitcoinNetZero_SML.pdf
@sveino: This report doesn't mention the fact that miners went to Kazakhstan and created an energy crisis there. How odd.
https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/27/22805033/kazakhstan-cryptocurrency-miners-suffer-energy-shortages
@cqoicebordel: Is Bitcoin mining in Kazakhstan the problem or is it just showing the dysfunctional electrical system? I think the Bitcoin-Kazakhstan issue is a typical misconception of cause and effect. Bitcoin mining has shown the problems in the nation's electrical grid and overall policy, but it is not what has caused the problem. Bitcoin mining is highly price sensitive and as soon as the price of electricity goes up miners need to shut down or move their rigs.
@cqoicebordel: Also, the date of the report reads September 2021 so it is not odd at all.
@sveino: You are clearly biased. All the best for you, though.
BTW, Ad hominem or ad verecundiam arguments are not the best way to discuss these matters.
@aqasoft: I might be biased, but what about Jon's original post? I would say it's extremely biased and lacking knowledge about the subject. At least I've studied this for years.
@sveino Thank you for taking the time to reply to my comment. The subject of digital coins is very interesting but at the same time extremely dividing between coiners and no coiners. I wish it wasn't that way.
Jon is stating a thoughtful opinion backed up with his research on the field and the help of many of Vivaldi's team members. It is clearly not a one man's decision.
At the same time, you have studied the subject thoroughly and it would be foolish not to take your point of view into account.
And then again, lots of people may dissent, like I do, having given the digital coins world a good time of studying and thinking. And take my opinion as that of an electronic engineer with an MBA and many years of software development and IT experience.
Like I said previously, all the best of luck with your investment.
Again, as a final thought, I think Jon's got a point worth respecting and taking into account.
@aqasoft said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
Coiners and no coiners? What are you talking about?
@eggcorn Very simply put, in the jargon, coiners are advocates of cryptocurrency and no-coiners are anti-cryptocurrency. The ones in the middle are able to debate on the subject, while coiners and no-coiners have severely strong positions and are unable to debate healthily.
@aqasoft Than the problem isn't that digital coins divide "coiners" and "non-coiners". The problem is: Those people embrace a childish us-and-them mindset! If they weren't divided over digital coins, they'd just be divided over something else.
@eggcorn So true!
@julien_picalausa
https://cointelegraph.com/news/iota-selected-for-phase-2a-of-eu-blockchain-initiative
(also look at the energy expenditure).
@julien_picalausa: "The point has been extensively researched by several Vivaldi engineers over the last few years years, myself included."
Thank you for your time invested in this research. I myself have done some pretty deep research too, and have reached the same conclussions.
@julien_picalausa: The issue with the "environmental damages" statement is that you lump all cryptocurrencies together. Hedera and Ripple both use less energy per transaction than Visa. If the environment were indeed your top priority you would be promoting these, not damning the entire industry.
I will forgive Vivaldi, because the article is written by that dinosaur that you get when you lose the internet connection.
The dinosaur knows browsers and knows them very well. You should not expect the dinosaur to play with crypto, but with cactuses and prehistoric birds, like Chrome and Edge.
Let's not forget that the dinosaur was once "the crypto" for all those things, starting with the innovation that Opera brought and what Vivaldi has now become.
But that's how the circle of life goes: You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
Wow, so much Crypto Funk Buzzards here.![🍿](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="32" height="32"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg> ":popcorn:")
![🍿](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="32" height="32"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg> ":popcorn:")
![🍿](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="32" height="32"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg> ":popcorn:")
Yes, all these Cryptochainees, Bitcoiners will save the world with Greenwashing and give Everyone the American Dream to get rich. Really!? Or is this the New Internet Socialism made by some pranksters?
PS: I can not participate in the American Dream as i am not a US citizen.
@julien_picalausa The simple fact that this statement is necessary suggests otherwise.
@doctorg: The American Dream is the ability to make your life better. It isn't restricted to the United States. See this: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/07/opinion/leonhardt-income-inequality.html
@frattaro , in the American Dream, all so soft and clean
@catweazle That dream of straight US boys and girls makes me run away!
These on the image mostly want to speak about a special WASP religion and tell people how bad they're if they do not follow the path of this or that or [whateverelse].
@doctorg , that was the meaning.
Sarcasm off
@doctorg As an American myself, I wish I could tell you that you were wrong. But I can't! Too many Americans will tell you how bad you are, if you don't follow the "right" path and profess the "right" beliefs.
And it's not just the right or the left, the Christians or the Woke, the straights or the gays. Americans on both sides of the political and cultural divide behave that way! Fortunately, not all of us are like that.
I believe blockchains have some value, technologically speaking. But none of their usages as of today add anything of value to the world, solve any problem, or do something we couldn't do with a DB.
Cryptocurrencies are a scam. NFTs are worse. Web3 is the worst.
Thanks Vivaldi for staying away from those things![🙂](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="32" height="32"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg> ":)")
I agree with you Jon, close to 100% but not quite.
Looking at all those 8000 coins that are available, there are a very modest few that actually have some kind of value, my opinion of course. I am talking about cryptocurrency that rewards science, they are rare but do exist.
The only one I have any experience using and working with is Gridcoin, I shall describe it here every so slightly. Gridcoin is a cryptocurrency that is using Proof of stake as a “baseline” for the ledger etc, but also rewards science that is “performed” by your computer on the BOINC network (more on this down below). Proof of stake rewards you with a little coin as long as you are staking (holding) coins, the icing on the cake are the coins you receive from doing research on the BOINC network.
Using Proof of stake has an extremely low power consumption in comparison with any Proof of work crypto (for instance Bitcoin), we are talking several orders of magnitude lower. On the other hand, when your computer is “performing” scientific research on the BOINC network it is consuming a lot of power. The key difference is that the projects available on BOINC are actual scientific research being conducted by universities, colleges, private companies and so forth. Some of the projects include research on cancer, Covid19, tuberculosis, HIV-AIDS, the Milkyway galaxy, neutron stars using LIGO and a lot of other topics.
In my opinion the electricity used does not go to waste, it serves a scientific purpose. Gridcoin acts as an incentive for people to participate in research for BOINC. If for some reason the coin itself one day is worth nothing, or it becomes meaningless, the research performed for BOINC will always have its value.
Adding this sort of cryptocurrency to the Vivaldi browser would be a nod to scientific research using volunteer computing.
@thooor: The story is a big part of a crypto. There is always some reason why this one is better than the others, but in reality there is no reason to include crypto in any of this.
Funny to see that the team feels it HAS to take position. This fact is already giving crypto some credibility. I don't get why you have to choose such a strong position. Everybody is able to understand there are obviously some scams when there are 8000 different tokens. But there are also some very interesting innovations, beyond the speculative aspect. The large majority of the major projects has been created by some really brilliant people, coming from MIT or other recognized places. I mean check who are Vitalik Butterin or Sergey Nazarov. There are extremely instructive podcasts from Lex Friedman with each one of them. I understand the team doesn't want to add an integrated wallet but please don't put everything in the same bag. We can even actually follow some projects without investing a single dollar, it can actually be very informative. And, eventually, we can imagine that maybe one or several of those projects will be useful. But as any emerging technology or company, it can also been forgotten in a few years (like internet browsers, heh). You could have simply said that the technology is not mature enough and still too associated to scams and you don't see the benefit to add it for now, and maybe reconsider later if necessary. Lots of crypto projects on Ethereum blockchains are privacy related, most of them are 100% open source, organized in DAOs...
@kennit said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
Blockchain may have some limited usefulness - cryptocurrencies have been around for something like two decades already and have never demonstrated that they are anything but get-rich-quick schemes for people to believe in. That's also why all the arguments for them turn into vague promises or jargon-filled rants. It's nothing to do with the technology - the entire concept is foolish.
@kennit: "This fact is already giving crypto some credibility"
No it really doesn't. It just involves a lot of money. It's like saying because people have to speak against anti-vaxxers, they have some credibility. It says nothing about its credibility, just that it's a big topic right now. And people have been demanding crypto implementation for a while, so it works to answer why they won't even offer the option.
Extremely disappointed and particularly with the energy stuff. Would have been so much smarter to not have taken a position after watching Mozilla stick their foot in their mouth. I had actually touted Vivaldi as a great choice to switch to after they came out with that. Huge regret. On the search for my next replacement, good riddance
The article disappointed me. I highly appreciate what Vivaldi does. I agree that almost all crypto projects are scams. I also support and consider it right not to integrate the crypto wallet into the browser. So what disappointed me? You are a smart person, but you have not said a single kind word about bitcoin. I am a poor person. The welfare state rips off exorbitant taxes from me, and then devalues my savings with the help of inflation. This is a painful blow to the poor people. We live in debt and cannot get out of this poverty. We are in the financial slavery of large banks and the state. Me and some poor people found salvation in bitcoin. He saved us every time the state struck at the poor and middle classes. And all this time the media has been throwing mud at bitcoin and blaming it for all the sins. In a world where freedom recedes and barbarism sets in, where liberal democracy is in decline, where globalists gather in Davos and do not hesitate to present their plans to financially enslave the population to the world, where the left has invented new tools to rob the middle class by "fighting" racism, climate change, the coronavirus, and all the other evils, where regulations and taxes help the rich and hurt the poor, there's nothing left but the internet and bitcoin to save us. We chose bitcoin because we refuse to play by unfair rules. And I sincerely hope that you are on the side of ordinary people.
That's great to hear. We need more voices from tech people and organisations calling the crypto space for what it essentially is:
A giant bubble, based on the Greater fool theory and blatant get-rich-quick schemes, pushed by VCs, and harmful for both the average person and our society in general.
Thank you for your clear stance!
You think you are better than these "crypto kids", but in fact you fear what you don't understand. And you don't really want to understand, because that means extra work for you. It could mean shaking your belief system, your "throne of authority", by being a novice again.
The points brought up by the main article are "mainstream media myths". Believing in them, without in-depth research, is the easy way out.
For those who want to find the truth, seek out "Andreas Antonopoulous" channel on youtube. He flawlessly destroyes these myths, one by one.
But don't worry, as Vivaldi did with the other browsers, crypto-savvy browsers will do with Vivaldi.
Thanks for making it clear for all of us that Vivaldi will be the next Internet Explorer, having the same fate.
@jon said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
It's impossible to aptly put into words the relief and hope these kinds of posts give me. Everywhere you look it seems like society has gone topsy-turvy. This sometimes makes me feel hopeless—why bother any more if right is wrong and wrong is right? Why bother if justice is out the window?
I realise corruption, gambling, charlatans, pyramid schemes, etc., basically immorality, has been from all ages, but once exposed it was heavily frowned upon. Conversely, in this day and age, even when the corruption and lies and deceit are obvious, it seems as if it doesn't matter; “Who cares about morality, as long as I make money!” Living in such a soulless world becomes incredibly draining, but seeing the likes of Vivaldi and South Park raising their voice against these despicable insidious industries is what keeps me and many other going.
From the bottom of my heart: thank you team Vivaldi. I will proudly wear my just bought Vivaldi's Yoda T-shirt when it arrives.
I have seen one group of people with a genuine use case, that is privacy minded people wishing to support projects with full anonymity. This group of users is so small that the environmental impact is negligent (hopefully entirely so if the proof-of-stake model works out)
Considering the current situation, it makes sense for vivaldi to take this stance I guess, though it is unfortunate they will exclude that group of people.
Also what @thooor posted also seems interesting, as it's no longer harming the environment, and incentivizes people to help with research.
Cryptocurrency = a financial initiative using a valuable technology (blockchain) as argument to convince people to buy some sort of digital assets.
I am happy to see a ray of lucidity and honesty on this crypto world full of illusions, especially when one sees, at the same time, the direction of Opera, for example. However, I think that Dapps deserve a special treatment; it's faaaar more interesting than coins.
I don't think you are going in the right direction.
I switched to Firefox a few months ago and haven't had a reason to change back.
@code3: Firefox is also against decentralisation. They also "care" about environment.
@erecster Yeah but at least Firefox is open source. Also it seems to me that the Mozilla decision was a more careful one that could be changed later as crypto gets more eco friendly, whereas the Vivaldi post is much more extreme. I respect Jon but have noticed that he tends to have extreme views and isn’t open to new perspectives.
@code3 said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
In other words, you "respect" Jon but don't actually know him at all. As someone who has literally spent dozens of hours in one-on-one conversation with him, I would say, categorically, Jon neither has extreme views, nor is he closed to new perspectives.
@ayespy You know him better than I do. But this article seemed pretty extreme, and owning all shares of Vivaldi is another way he can exercise control. You are entitled to your own opinion, but I stopped using Vivaldi a while ago, and recent events only reaffirm that choice.
@code3 said " ... owning all shares of Vivaldi is another way he can exercise control."
Vivaldi is Jon's initiative and project and he's been able to fund it on his own SO OF COURSE HE SHOULD HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL over it; and that's a good thing because he's providing users with a fantastic browser for free AND COERCING NO ONE in the process. And since no one other than him has an ultimate say in how the browser is developed no outside person can wreck the project. When you say, "... owning all shares of Vivaldi is another way he can exercise control" you imply Jon is doing something wrong or malign when nothing could be further from the truth. It's his; so he can do as he pleases with it and he owes no one anything. I hope Jon never relinquishes control of Vivaldi.
@g_bartsch @code3 My understanding is that Jon doesn't have complete control of Vivaldi. That Vivaldi Technologies is an employee-owned company. And I'd feel more comfortable if Jon owned the company (or owned a majority of the shares).
And Code3: Are you saying that you stopped using Vivaldi, because you don't like Jon owning the company he founded, and you don't like his opinion on crypto-currency? You can use whatever browser you want, for whatever reason you want. But if those are your reasons for not using Vivaldi, I don't think they're good reasons!
@eggcorn said:
I believed Jon self funded this project and paid the salaries of everyone at the start. That could have changed over time and employees now have a stake (which I think would be good). But I'm not privy to the detailed internal workings at Vivaldi so could even be wrong on my origins belief and will happily change my mind if presented with evidence. I am sure Jon doesn't want to let Olde Opera's fate to befall Vivaldi.
@code3 I perceived the article as certain/firm and not at all extreme.
Jon does not own "all the shares" of Vivaldi. He co-owns it with employees (which is very generous of him, as he staked it himself).
Control is an issue. When Jon allowed investors and lost control of Opera, the world lost the most configurable browser ever, and the investors sold out to the Chinese. So his desire to retain more control, along with people who share his vision, is a) understandable and b) not at all extreme. It's interesting to see how he runs the company. He does not issue orders, but solicits input and guides mostly by consensus.
But as you are not a Vivaldi user, you are expressing opinions about something in which you have exactly zero stake, while we users do have a vested interest in the direction of the browser. And I, for one, find nothing to object to in the article.
@ayespy said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
You have informed me and I was partly wrong in thinking Jon owned the entire company outright; he may have put in all the money at the start but I'm so glad the employees co-own the project now because their having 'skin in the game' will result in the best outcome. Thank you.
@code3: Not to mention Firefox supports Big Tech censorship against people that are deemed possibly problematic online. Instead of engaging in discussions and changing people's minds, they have joined Google and many others in support of deplatforming people who do not share the same views or opinions or that go against the mainstream norm or ideas. This goes against the original motto of Mozilla which advocated for "a free and open internet for everyone"
If you wanted truly decentralized and uncensored internet for anyone use Brave.
@artex said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
Or Vivaldi.
@code3 said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
First privacy evasive components from Google have been removed. Second nowhere on the site or forums does it say or imply the Vivaldi devs support anything about manifest 3. Three the UI is fantastic. Four Firefox's extension engine is still a piece of shit. Still plenty of extensions that won't work, not because of their creators but because the way the extension engine was implemented. Various extensions slow to load.
@code3 said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
I don't think that's fair, for two reasons:
#1: I can like Firefox, while disliking the Mozilla Foundation. So why can't Vivaldi use Chromium code, while disliking Google?
#2: It's true that most of Vivaldi's code comes from Chromium. So what? The small difference in code results in two vastly different browsers! Much has humans and chimps have 98% of the same DNA, yet humans and chimps are vastly different.
@eggcorn said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
FF don't dislike Google, it use it even as default search engine.
...at least most (see daily news)
@code3: firefox, that thing sponsored by Google so no one can blame them for having a monopoly on the browser market lol.
@jon thanks for being so down to earth .... Again. This blog post renews my loyalty to Vivaldi browser and services.
Also for the "is bitcoin the future" type debate a fundamental variable for "no" is I cannot see nations giving up control of their currencies. Should a private crypto start being common means of transition it a reasonable assumption most major nations would step in and restrict it, as some are pre-emptively doing now.
Like when a nations currency collapses they always replace it rather than decide to use another nations more stable one. Or an example of how seriously nations take this is its believed the western support against Qaddafi was in part due to his gold dinar project and the threat of moving away from the franc/dollar in North Africa: https://theecologist.org/2016/mar/14/why-qaddafi-had-go-african-gold-oil-and-challenge-monetary-imperialism
At best I see a few key ones will remain as a digital storage of value and the rest largely becoming a new Dutch tulips story in the future.
Generalizing on the subject matter is not fair:
http://cointelegraph.com/news/iota-selected-for-phase-2a-of-eu-blockchain-initiative
(real life use cases are endless, for example: https://education.dellemc.com/content/dam/dell-emc/documents/en-us/2020KS_Todd_Project_Alvarium-The_Future_of_Edge_Data.pdf)
Hi Team Vivaldi, Thank You So Much for such a concrete stance! Keep it up!
I'm an avid user of your browser platform, with at times 100 over tabs opened at once. No other browser can provide what I need. I won't want my browser be tainted with FOMO (monetisation) trends.
Rest assured, I will keep using it.
Registered just to say thanks for taking a stand. "Overcomplicated slot machine" is as good a summary I've seen. It's hard for technologists to see the full picture and apply judgement when there are "cool" aspects of a technology. That's why voices like your's are so important.
Was just reading the other day that a couple of well-known antivirus suites include crypto-miners. I mean Norton and Avira. I suppose they're trying to make money off their free product, but still...
Cryptocoins are not an unreasonable concept, but as long as the value is based on, well, rainbows and unicorns then it could be worthless tomorrow. Until they have a crypto currency with some reasonably assured value (and that includes being sure your "banker" won't just steal it) it might as well be a pyramid scheme.
@sgunhouse said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
This is the only instance I know of in which “cryptocurrency” is not a misnomer, i.e., not a pyramid scheme: TU Delft: Delft café premieres with EEMCS blockchain euro.
But, if it is practical remains to be seen, since Africa has superior payment alternatives that don't require blockchain at all—which I address in the following essay: Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely.
@sgunhouse: you only unlock the crypto mining feature for Norton if you pay their subscription.
Good.
I do see a space for some cryptocurrencies, but as you wrote, all of them are currently too volatile to be used as an everyday currency. And the environmental and social costs just aren't worth the current ones.
Hypocritically, I do do some cryptocurrency trading. I'd rather not, but governments have decided that your average person shouldn't have easy access to currency markets (and in many countries it's even harder to get into the stock market). Cryptocurrencies do solve this, but the aforementioned costs and that too many see them as get rich quick schemes make them hard to stomach.
It's one thing for someone like me (with no way or say) to dabble with them, but for you to endorse them could have bigger impact and lead people (and the environment) to come to serious harm.
Thanks, interesting and informative.
Already independent due to the energy implications, a limited amount of virtual money, not backed by a real value, which continually increases in value, by definition is a bubble that will burst sooner or later.
Something similar happened in the Netherlands in the 17th century with Tulips, where it was also believed that the unit can increase in value to infinity.
There is no infinite growth and even less in a virtual economy, even less than in the real one, although the capitalist system wants us to believe that it does, as well as those who deal with Bitcoins, just as they did when they dealt with Tulip bulbs.
In any economy, more in the virtual one, in a capitalist system, the inherent greed of the traffickers is never taken into account, who do everything to keep the myth alive (just as oil lobbies always show us that fossil fuels have nothing to do with climate change), which recurrently every x years leads to a financial crisis, than in the past many times led to wars to make a 'reset', but always with dire consequences for the population.
This article (at least, the bit about people treating it as an investment scheme) isn't so much a case against crypto-currency, as it is a case against financial irresponsibility. Crypto-currency is a tool! Like any tool, it can be used responsibly or irresponsibility (though I can buy that most users use it irresponsibility).
Remember: Even in America, we have credit card companies blocking political donations to causes they don't like. And that's America! Imagine how much worse it is in a dictatorship, when you criticize the government. There's nothing to stop the government from freezing your bank account, if you call for democracy.
That's why we need something decentralized like crypto-currency. The alternative is surrendering too much control to governments, banks, credit card companies, etc.! Crypto-currency is necessary as a backup system. As way to transfer money that credit-cards can't block, and dictatorships can't freeze.
@eggcorn: I agree with at least part of this. Crypto-currencies must be used responsibly if they are to be used at all. Using them responsibly requires a thorough understanding of both tech and finances that most common people do not possess and therefore, there is no reason to expose the general population to it in its current state.
Unfortunately, a lot of the advertising around cryptocurrencies pushes people to put large amounts of money in it without making the risks clear. Being the ones most likely to profit from people following such advertising in good faith, I'd say cryptocurrency enthusiasts are the ones responsible here, and having them blame the victims of this paints the whole cryptocurrency sphere in a bad light.
It's time for more responsible voices to make themselves heard and ward people off from this travesty.
@julien_picalausa @julien_picalausa said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
Wouldn't that depend on how you're using it? If you want to convert massive amounts of money into crypto-currency, you better know what you're doing! But if you're trying to convert 50$ into cryptocurrency, so that you can donate it (as I said, America has credit card companies blocking political donations to causes they don't like), that's a much less risky endeavor!
Cryptocurrency ads promote financial irresponsibility, and you hold cryptocurrency enthusiasts responsible. Why?
Say I'm a computer enthusiast. I think computers are wonderful useful tools, and that everyone should have them. Is it fair to hold me responsible if Dell (for example) starts an advertising campaign to sell vastly overpriced computers? If Dell's ads promote financial irresponsibility?
Or are we talking about two different things?
I tend to agree, but I don't think "cryptocurrency is good" or "cryptocurrency is bad" is the most responsible thing to say. The situation is more nuanced than that.
I am so glad there are other people seeing this rationally. Ironically, after yet another article on what a waste of carbon it all is, I typed "ban cryptocurrencies" into the search bar and was pleased to see a number of countries have indeed banned them and that there are commentators out there who feel the same. That wasn't the case when I did a similar search a few years ago.
The most annoying is when people criticise cryptocurrencies in comments under news items and get swamped by others claiming "you just don't get it". No, the people who fall for the hype are the ones who don't get it, thank you very much.
Also nice that a recent sustainability employee survey by my company kept popping up "we should denounce cryptocurrencies and distance ourselves from them" as one of the topics.
@mossman said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
You can oppose something, without wanting to make it illegal. Take me for example. I think people ought to switch from Chrome to Vivaldi. But I'm not calling for Chrome to be made illegal!
@eggcorn said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
No I mean it! It should be banned. It adds nothing of value to the world yet takes exponentially more out each time it's used. Having a system which get more and more complicated/wasteful to use the longer you use it is ridiculous.
@mossman: Many countries who have banned crypto are in fact planning themselves of launching their own type of "fedcoin". They just don't want to competition and well want to spy on the population better.
Please stop comparing bitcoin to tulips, that is so lame.
This myth debunked here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff5G81W3Skg
@xmasbug: yes, tulips have a real value. They make people especially woman feel good.
Boa tarde a todos!
Falo do Brasil, e por aqui tá uma loucura essa estultícia de cripto moedas,quem tá acostumados trabalhar com dinheiro, sabe bem como funciona o jogo financeiro, é como dizem: para fazer um omelete tem que quebrar alguns ovos, e não existe almoço grátis, mas me pergunto? E para pessoas feito eu que não está nem aí para essas ondas, vou ser um ovo quebrado para sua omelete? Aliás VIVALDI, ÓTIMO texto, ainda estou aqui, fui mais voltei e agora pretendo ficar com vocês, realmente me arrojo mais a vocês que os outros, abraço do Brasil Rio de Janeiro, e tudo de ótimo para todos nós desse ano para adiante...!
At least you can feel Monopoly money. You might not be able to trade in Spanish Doubloons, but the material they are made of has value. Even cloth dollar bills have barter ability. But, if computer systems go down because of some infrastructure disaster, what are you going to say? I'll pay you when my computer comes up? Don't get me wrong - I very rarely have cash on me because I either shop online or use a credit/debit card. But I know that my money is safe in a financial institution - not in the cloud somewhere that an enterprising crypto thief can grab it. I'm glad Vivaldi will have nothing to do with this. Another reason why Vivaldi is my favorite browser.
@arbpen said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
Bank accounts are vulnerable to the same issues. Users can be scammed, banks can make errors, passwords can be lost, if the power or the Internet is not available, people cannot access their funds, etc.
As with any disruptive technology:
Cash in bank accounts dwindles away due to inflation. The banks invest your cash, that is how they can afford secure high street buildings, ATM machines, security guards, advertising, and highly paid executives. Guess who pays their salaries? They have a lot to lose if any cryptocurrency becomes mainstream.
@arbpen: see my comment on hot, custodial wallets vs cold, non-custodial. There is a middle ground. That said, I wholeheartedly agree, browsers have no place in the crypto space, at least insofar as wallets and storage is concerned. Nor do I see any inherent value in earning a browsers own minted coin for viewing ads, etc. THAT truly only further contributes to the unnecessary overconsumption of energy and does reek of scam-ridden
I am a bit saddened by the lack of basic knowledge and understanding demonstrated in this article. Jumping in on the hype of "hating" blockchain without doing a little bit of research is not reassuring. Especially when coming from the CEO of such a nice project, this kind of lack of vision is disappointing (I recommend the 3rd industrial revolution lecture from Jeremy Rifkin on youtube, it doesn't address the topic directly, but connecting the dots from there isn't too difficult). Hating on blockchain technology today is like hating on the internet in the 90s, products take time to mature. If many people (including academia, governments, etc...) are excited by blockchain today (and I specifically say blockchain here and not crypto), it might be for a good reason![😉](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="32" height="32"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg> ";)")
@victorguillet No person hates a blockchain or a cryptocurrency.
Some people do not have a need to use such technology.
@doctorg: Fair enough, as a gentle reminder though, a similar thing was said about the internet initially. Blockchain as a concept is not old, but might be evident in its implications already, despite it still admittedly being of very little use in its current applications. Blockchains (and DAGs) are enabling creating the literal internet of value, and it is likely to play a pivotal role along with the internet of things, transport internet, and energy internet on the rise.
It provides a programing language for value. This is also why we are seeing 8000 different currencies today, anyone can now tinker and experiment. Most are admittedly useless, or poorly done, but does it really matter? The bad ones die, the good/useful ones stay. We do the exact same thing in the data internet (right here), and it has brought about tools like vivaldi, or any other program for that matter, which we never thought we needed before. Calling something a scam and pyramid scheme does qualify as a form of hate, which is disappointing given the article is factually wrong on many points. Additionally, voluntarily or not, deception by omission is also ethically debatable, and this articles omits a lot.
P.S. Im sorry btw, this comment was not addressed to you as much as the comment below it btw. I clicked on the wrong reply button hence the addressed user being different*. But cheers to the interesting conversation non-the-less!
@victorguillet said:
'Calling something a scam and pyramid scheme does qualify as a form of hate ...'. Thus the definition of hate becomes VERY broad and an 'intense emotion' is watered down to 'disagreement with something,' or 'a position on something'. Let's not ruin a good word.
@g_bartsch Sure, I guess I could agree with you on that there. But if semantics is the only thing you considered worth considering in my reply, I guess there is not much point in continuing this conversation. Everything else still stands.
I fully agree, as I have a few crypto. So I know how it works. But i also see al the mentioned downsides, and not enough added benefits, at the moment. Really pow is a very bad idea that continually needs more far to cheap power, there is no reason to think it will ever need less power.
Using Icelandic Banks was a gamble not so long ago.
When some well-known financial institutions failed, the government was obliged to bail them out. Wealthy executives received golden-handshakes as a reward for their mismanagement, while the British tax-payers paid the bills.
HSBC were fined £64 million for money-laundering.
The problem I see with pension funds is that you may be indirectly investing in things that are harmful to society: alcohol, animal slaughter, weapon manufacture, betting, etc. The risks are typically spread in an ETF.
If you are intelligent, and willing to do some research, why not invest in something that you consider beneficial to society, whether that is medical research, green energy, or whatever else you want to see progress?
Your stance is mine; I'm so glad Vivaldi won't even consider adding any CC features. That would have really disturbed me given my view on CC's. Thank you!
Glad to know Vivaldi management's opinion on this subject and not falling for the slight-of-hand of crypto currencies.
In fact, although not quite as volatile as crypto currency, fiat currency is still a false economy, too. Anything that can be just printed up as required, with nothing to back it up, is only as good as what people "imagine" it to be. As soon as the people realize the emperor is wearing no clothes, the house of cards falls apart. It's happened in the past and will happen again at some point in the future.
Mozilla also reject Crypto currency, at least for the moment, for similar reasons
https://www.makeuseof.com/why-mozilla-stop-accepting-cryptocurrency-donations/
https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/mozilla-halts-cryptocurrency-donations-after-climate-impact-backlash/articleshow/88749995.cms
Playing along with the "Mozilla and crypto" analogy, Bitcoin is the "Gecko", the browser engine that Netscape invented in 1997.
The other 8000 coins are variants, that use a modified version of bitcoin, just like you had lots of browsers pop up back in the days.
What happened? Firefox was competing for dominance, and unexpectedly Chrome took over. Now most browsers use Chromium instead of Gecko.
I think that's pretty much what will happen with Bitcoin. It will rule for many years to come, unless a breakthrough event like "Chrome" will mobilize a mass of programmers to create something new.
Until then, believing the mainstream media narrative, not doing extensive research on the topic, is a mistake. You will continue believing myths, because it's easy for you to brush off the topic easily.
Then crypto will become mainstream, and you will see yourself get left out, and forced to educate yourself on that very thing you brushed off for so many time.
ANY crypto CRAP in the browser will make me drop it like a hot potato.
I had to laugh at the jibe "Bad UI/UX"... Thankfully, AyeSpy's comment soon thereafter said all that I would.![🙂](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="32" height="32"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg> ":)")
Except that I sometimes envy you: I'm an ex-Cantabrigian.
Undeniably based. This is amazing!
@justanothermalaysian said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
Yes farwayer is undeniably biased.
@farwayer said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
Well, laugh until you explode.
I do not defend any financial system which destroys people and resources.
@doctorg Then I guess we will have to revert to bartering.
@Catweazle
Scrap E-bay, Amazon, PayPal, bank accounts, international currency transfer, and cryptocurrencies.
Gold is also a finite resource, which gets more expensive to mine as time goes by, and most of the rich and easily accessible seams have already been exploited, and miners risk their lives to get it.
If you want to fix the problem, remove the root cause of suffering, which is craving in its many forms: craving, greed, lust, attachment, etc. This includes removing attachment to views and opinions. No issue is just black or white; there are at least fifty shades of grey.
@pesala , that is what I mean, because of this I refer to the inherent greed in the current economic systems.
But even with this, it's a difference between a economic system based on real values and working power, where are exist fluctuacions, but with a relative stable value, like the gold, and a virtual value, augmented only by the greed of especulators.
See the value of bitcoins in the beginning and the value today, increasing constantly (until the crash), gold never has experimented this increasing, apart, it's a recourse limited, but which augmented constantly with new explotations, it can be recycled to other uses in tecnology and art or as economic value itself (coins, etc). It's not the same.
But yes, the root of the problem, as I say before, is the capitalist system in the benefit of fews, a cost of the work and suffering of the rest.
@catweazle No, the root cause is not in the Capitalist system. It is in human nature. The Communist system also benefits the few at great cost to the many. Read Animal Farm by George Orwell, if you have not already done so.
@pesala , yes, I've read the Animal Farm, which schows well how the comunist system is betrayed by the greed of a few pigs with 2 legs, turning it into a capitalist system as well.
Capitalism, as we know it today, is based on selfish and greedy human nature, the communist system is the attempt to invert it, but it has always failed because the corruption and greed of a few.
Because what I said, neither capitalism nor communism ever took human nature into account, so they fail, until the society don't change it's values.
I think you know it better than the most. Mankind need evolution, not revolutions.
@catweazle said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
Yes, I agree, we should have stuck to the gold standard. But, of course, out of greed, they done away with it in the 70s. Now, our fiat money is utterly meaningless and based purely on debt. They've been setting up for this economic crash for decades. It will be devastating when it topples (and it will like all fiat currencies have in the past).
Naturally a computerized economic system requires resources, but with bitcoins we add more resource expenditure, instead of less, which normally with climate change should be the goal.
The underlying problem, apart from the environmental one, is the speculative system itself, which bases its values, not on countervalues, but on the desire to make money, using money itself as a commodity. This is a lethal form in an economy, especially if it is a purely virtual value, with an assigned value that is only based on the desire to earn more from this value.
It is not necessary to be a genius of economics, to realize that a purely virtual article, which also with a limited quantity, can not continue to increase its value indefinitely, as it has done over the years, this was already shown on several occasions in the past in the recurrent economic crises, precisely because of the savage speculations in the capitalist system, which in the end has ruined not only the speculators, but also the rest of the population by the collapse of a political system that is based on the values of the market, instead of that of its people.
Ask Obie whether or not he approves of Dog Ecoin.
This thread deserves a proper finale, like debunking the ultimate FUD of crypto: the energy consumption.
Here you have Saifedean Ammous explaining Jordan Peterson that Bitcoin incentivizes cheap energy production, contradicting the idea that it's a waste of the world's resources.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am7L648-ML0
@xmasbug If it incentives cheap energy production that doesn't mean it's not using a lot of cheap energy!
Also, still waiting to hear what benefit any of these cryptocurrencies bring. Plenty of arguments about whether or not they are energy hungry, stable, speculative or pyramid schemes - but if they're so great why can no one actually point to a solid argument about their usefulness?!
Thanks, as if I needed one more reason to not use your browser. That a dumb stance on a new technology.
"The problem is that to extract actual money from the system you have to find someone willing to buy the tokens you are holding."
Yeah, like the FIATs and stocks.
Let us see what are saying three economists (among them Joseph Stiglitz with Nobel Price) about Cryptocurrency
https://www.investopedia.com/news/three-leading-economists-come-out-against-bitcoin/
Also recommended to read
https://www.cmcmarkets.com/en/learn-cryptocurrencies/what-are-the-risks
https://www.makeuseof.com/biggest-risks-crypto-investors/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dantedisparte/2018/07/21/beware-of-crypto-risks-10-risks-to-watch/
https://www.indiatimes.com/explainers/technology/bitcoin-cryptocurrency-trading-risk-for-investors-545401.html
Tulips
@catweazle said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
“Tulip mania reached its peak during the winter of 1636–37, when some bulb contracts were reportedly changing hands ten times in a day. No deliveries were ever made to fulfill any of these contracts, because in February 1637, tulip bulb contract prices collapsed abruptly and the trade of tulips ground to a halt. The collapse began in Haarlem, when, for the first time, buyers apparently refused to show up at a routine bulb auction. This may have been because Haarlem was then suffering from an outbreak of bubonic plague. The existence of the plague may have helped to create a culture of fatalistic risk-taking that allowed the speculation to skyrocket in the first place; this outbreak might also have helped to burst the bubble.” —Wikipedia
Hmm…
If they're so great why can no one actually point to a solid argument about their usefulness?!
Money printing causes long term economic instability through distorted price mechanisms. Bitcoin fixes this by having a fixed monetary supply that is predictable, impossible to change, capped at 21 million units.
Debasing money leads to inferior products. You either compromise on the quality of products or the price goes up. Money printing leads to inflation, increasing income inequality.
Fiat runs on debt, and creates more debt, leading to its collapse through hyper-inflation. Bitcoin fixes this by making investments "saving based" and not "debt based".
In countries like el salvador, middle men take up to 50% of fees for transactions. Bitcoin fixes this being open, borderless, almost fee-less, with "layer 2" solutions like the lightning network.
It fixes racial and gender discrimination, whether you are an afghan woman or a black male in a racist environment. Bitcoin is the most inclusive financial system ever created.
1.7 billion adults don't have access to the financial system. Bitcoin reduces the number of unbanked people. In el salvador 70% of people are unbanked. Now, bitcoin is legal tender in the country.
Protesters in belarus, nigeria and hong kong had their bank accounts frozen and their funds ceased. Bitcoin is censorship resistant, neutral, apolitical.
A huge percentage of energy gets stranded. It can't be easily used, stored, transported. Bitcoin leads to fast infrastructure refinancing and incentivising green energy.
Find out more here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecLbZF2AvxM
@xmasbug said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
That might be the best argument for Vivaldi to support crypto-currency. If many 3rd worders simply don't have access to banks, if the only way they can use online financial transactions is via crypto-currency: Seems to me that Vivaldi should support crypto-currency. This blog's case for not supporting crypto-currency is that Vivaldi's protecting people from themselves. If protecting 1st worders from themselves means shutting 3rd worders out of online financial transactions, the price is not worth it!
To be clear: I'm not saying that the Vivaldi team ought to make their own crypto-currency (Vivaldi's a browser not a bank). I am saying that (at least ideally) Vivaldi ought to support online shopping via crypto-currency, same as it supports online shopping via convectional currency.
@eggcorn said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
El Salvador is a special case since the 70% were told they should use Bitcoin and given a $30 wallet... and then promptly crashed the system by all trying to take out their $30 in cash at the ATM. Ha ha ha.
So much for those people being liberated.
A better example of the kind of democratised currency you're talking about has been quietly adopted in Africa for some time already, where people exchange mobile phone credit by SMS. I forget the details but I understood it's actually a very popular and viable payment method over large areas there.
@mossman said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
Now that you mention it, I remember reading about that. I can see why they prefer using mobile phone credits over crypto-currency:
#1: They were already using mobile phone credits as, well, mobile phone credits.
#2: In terms of digital money, phone credits are the equivalent of a gold-back currency. Because they're backed by something of real value, you can always exchange your credits for phone time. While crypto-currency is like the modern US Dollar, it only has whatever value people feel it has. It's not backed by anything real.
@mossman said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
And if the mainstream media isn't interested in it, you know it's working and viable. There's no desire to spread that kind of information around.
While I share your critique of crypto in general I think there is something much more significant happening with the emergence of blockchain technology and Web3. Take a look at what Tim Berners-Lee and others are working on to decentralize identity and reshape the future of the internet. Blockchain can be a catalyst for shifting power if used right. I believe crypto can find it's place in all of that; not as currency the way we traditionally think of it - but more like barter economies in a digital first world. I agree - it is a joke though to think that cryptocurrencies are the revolution. The revolution is blockchain.
@wiselywoven , I agree in this. In the current system of centralized internet and a savage capitalist system, cryptocurrency is the intend to extinguish fire with gasoline
To say that blockchain is the true innovation is like saying Vivaldi's best use case is syncing your history and bookmarks to the cloud.
Blockchain alone is meaningless, it's a glorified SQL database.
It's the combination of technologies that run in the background that makes a system like Bitcoin great.
El Salvador as an example seems to disprove BitCoin's value rather than prove its usefulness. Searching for updates on the situation there gets mostly "it isn't going very well" from establishment press or "people there just don't understand it, but it was the right decision because blah blah blah" same ol' excuses" from the crypto-proponents.
I'm sorry, but the "proof" I keep hearing has all the hallmarks of a belief system rather than being any practical proof.
And talking of belief, I find it extremely hard to believe that a Visa transaction - which should be on the order of sending an e-mail or viewing a webpage - can be using more energy than a transaction which BY DESIGN is conducted through having a network of computers performing complex calculations just for the heck of it.
@mossman , Banking certainly spends energy on servers, like anything these days. But there the problem lies in the fact that, to combat climate change, it is urgent to reduce energy consumption and not to add another one, although supposedly 'it spends little' according to some crypto gurus on YT (especially since YT eliminated the dislike counter).
I think that if economists of the first rank and both computer experts affirm, that surely there are in Vivaldi and also Mozilla, that cryptocurrencies are more than dubious, which in some way also says common sense, I trust them more than some affirmations in social networks and from YT.
how much cryptocurrency rates will be going higher in 2022?
BBC News
New laws to tackle misleading crypto-asset adverts
Meanwhile Opera just launched a fully-fledged crypto browser.
Of all the predictions, the one I've posted here 5 days ago must be the fastest one to come true.
@xmasbug Hardly surprising that Opera goes the opposite direction to Vivaldi, since disagreement with the fundamental direction of Opera is exactly the reason that Vivaldi exists in the first place.
@thomasp Fortunately, Oprea's somewhat backtracked on that direction change. Ironically, the crypto-currency features are an example of how they've backtracked.
My understanding is: Oprea decided to drop nearly all of her features and customizability, the things the browser was famous for. In other words: Opera stopped being Opera. So Jon (Opera's co-founder) left and created Vivaldi.
Opera's somewhat backtracked on that. Somewhat! It's no Vivaldi. But in terms of features and customizability, it's well above the average browser.
@thomasp: Sounds like the fork of Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash.![🙂](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="32" height="32"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg> ":)")
@thomasp said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
EXACTLY
@xmasbug said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
WOW so we should be jumping up and down with joy that a browser based out of China has crypto mining built into it. I think NOT!!!!!!
@locutusofborg: So please tell me more how exactly this crypto mining works...
@xmasbug said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
@xmasbug Here's my understanding: As crypto-currency is a fully digital currently, it needs servers to keep track of financial transactions.
The crypto-currency's automated systems rent servers to do that. If you rent your server to those automated systems, you get paid in the crypto-currency. That's what "mining" is.
@eggcorn: So how does crypto mining works in Opera?
@xmasbug said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
It doesn't. As far as I know: Opera is a browser, not a crypto-currency miner. My impression is that Opera supports making online payments in crypto-currency (as well as conventional currency). But that's not the same thing as mining.
Edit: Oh, you knew that already. Seems I missed the context of your question.
@eggcorn Indeed, @XmasBug is just jumping on the fact that someone else accidentally or mistakenly said that Opera contains crypto mining. It's actually nothing to do with anything that you said.
@thomasp Ironically, there is a browser that mines cryptocurrency. It's called "CryptoTab". But I wouldn't recommend it. It looks like CryptoTab skims money off the top. If you want to mine cryptocurrency, you're probably better off with another program.
@xmasbug said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
I'll tell you how cypto mining works when you can tell me how some greedy people can justify buying up every piece of graphics hardware and drives so as to drive up the prices to make a few pennies. Till then don't respond to me.
@Eggcorn thanks
//MODEDIT: Inappropriate comment removed. User is reminded to observe the Code of Conduct
~pafflick
@locutusofborg: Respectfully, your replies demonstrate you have no clue about how crypto works. That only contributes to the FUD surrounding the topic, and confuses people who would want to learn about the topic.
The correct answer was: there is no crypto mining in Opera, using crypto does not imply mining anything.
@xmasbug said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
The entire point is it is bad for the environment and should not be used. Now again I'm not asking you not to reply to me, I'm tell you not to reply to me.
Opera currently is the browser which less respect user privacy, less than Chrome or EDGE. Privacy for Chinese companies is a Klingon word.
@catweazle: Opera doesn't give a shit about their users. Many issues and suggestions that have been provided to Opera goes unheeded for many years now.
@artex Not quite the same, Some suggestions are contradictory, some just don't fit with what the owners feel their niche is. I doubt they'll ever implement the various theming suggestions in Opera Stable, as they think a simplified theme will make the browser faster. Not sure if their new so-called crypto browser really adds anything. Up to them, of course.
@artex , I know, current Opera has nothing to do with the old Opera, it should be called Arepo, or better 雷波, to avoid confusion.
Lolz... reading on a different forum about the Opera crypto launch (which most users were pretty scathing about) someone pointed to this site listing all the crypto-fails as they happen:
https://web3isgoinggreat.com
Her opinion on the whole thing, which certainly chimes with what we're seeing in this thread: https://web3isgoinggreat.com/what
@mossman: Other than the metaverse and NFT shit, I think its fine, there are many more DApps out there that are doing great and are very successful, unfortunately many of these projects are not as secure as they seem to be and yes there are a lot of shitcoins or scam coins out there, which is why people who do engage in crypto must do their extreme due-diligence, research the project, research the makers/founders of the project, etc.
And other thing to add a lot of the horrible no good stuff that happens seem to occur with projects that are very centralized as opposed to similar projects on the more decentralized side of crypto. I do agree with one thing this shouldnt be promoted to the general public especially at this stage which is still its infancy.
So does fiat money, which is pretty much all money in circulation. If it's not backed by silver or gold then it is as worthless as Bitcoin is. Remember that what happened in Weimar Republic or in the US in the 1930's can happen even now, because of the fact that currencies have no real value, just like Bitcoin. Plus, a lot of the cryptocurrencies around are pretty much worthless, not even worth 1 cent per coin. Those are essentially dead in the water, because anyone can make a cryptocurrency, but barely anyone can keep it's value.
Many people have been blacklisted from gaining funds through banking due to the MATCH list, and it's not because they were doing illegal things, people get blacklisted by banks because of their politics or beliefs. It's often because new platforms that allow true freedom of speech as is written in the Second Ammendment will inevitably be flooded by all the extremists that have been banned from all the major websites that have tight control of who can say what, and it's not representative of the views that the owners have, it's just a side effect of current policies in large corporations. That's where cryptocurrencies come into play, where there is no central entity that can dictate who can receive money and who cannot. For many it's the only way to fund an alternative to all the Silicon Valley giants.
And a fun history fact: the carbon footprint idea got popularized by BP, the oil company, to shift the blame of polluting the environment onto consumers, who cause a promile of the pollution that big corporations do. And as for the energy consumption, I'd argue that all the banking infrastructure that's now in place and operating utilizes more energy than Bitcoin mining, so it's not fair to point out that Bitcoin is consuming a lot of energy if the traditional systems consume even more.
In my opinion cryptocurrencies are getting too much hate and are often accused of the flaws that our current currency systems have, and that cryptocurrencies do have a purpose in modern day, where banking is heavily controlled and can be used to keep a monopoly on social media. I of course fully respect Vivaldi's decision, and I'd even say it would be a waste of resources as such a cryptocurrency would simply die out, but I do believe that both sides of the argument should be represented and discussed.
@supra107 , I see the problem, apart from adding another carbon source to the existing one, even if it is less (?), in the system itself, rather than using cryptocurrency.
By definition in a capitalist system, as it is practiced today, the greed of a few prevails, turning any economic system into a pyramid scheme, which with a virtual economy is even worse.
If it is already a risk to make money with speculation, it is even more so with an economy that exists exclusively in the cloud.
@supra107 said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
I say we go back to using something useful as currency, like when they use to use salt. At least you can use it for something.
If you don't like them, don't invest in them; simple. Do not tell everyone else what to do because you think you know better. That's arrogant and condescending.
@zikalify2 said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
Is the blog post telling everyone else what to do?
@doctorg said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
Not even remotely true, but you knew that before you made your post.
Everyone is free to do what they please, personally I can only give reasons why I do not like crypto currency, which is also shared by renowned economists, just as I do not like any speculative economy.
Therefore I am with those who are against it for similar reasons and get those who use it to reflect on the implicit risks.
I still think that in the current capitalist system, cryptocurrency is trying to put out the fire with gasoline, or greed with a virtual currency of uncertain values.
Thank you for being a voice of sanity.
There is much to learn from the story of "The Emperors New Clothes".
In this modern age we have made the Emperor some new coins, new art and now people are even trying to sell the Emperor some new land.
Interesting take - "Never" is a long time.
I think crypto or digital currency will emerge in some form and gain legitimacy, but it has a lot of growing up and consolidation to do so.
Ultimately, I would like to see money out of the hands of governments and politicians, who can abuse monetary policy to achieve political ends. Some form of absolute financial worth outside the boundaries of a government that can manipulate it.
It seems a decentralized digital currency of some sort has the potential to do that.
@rickbsgu , as I said before, in a capitalist system, like the current one, it is even more difficult to prevent politicians from abusing monetary policy with a virtual economy, the real one is much more controllable and controlled and it is more difficult to hide hidden boxes in B, extremely simple with crypto currency.
Before thinking about changing to this type of economy, we must first change the system that allows it, without opening the social gap even further because of a certain speculative and corrupt elite.
The original idea of capitalism is of a system for the fair exchange of goods and services, but this elite and these 'neo-liberal' politicians have turned it into a pyramid scheme.
First you have to put an end to this, before thinking about a virtual economy, there is no other way.
Regardless of your opinion for/against cryptocurrencies, I admire the V team for investigating, drawing a conclusion, and standing by that conclusion as a point of ethics.
I'm sure there are browser extensions that can add crypto functionality to Vivaldi if someone so desires. If the V team have evaluated crypto and concluded that it goes against some particular ethical principles they stand for, I find it admirable that they refuse to bake such functionality in the browser, regardless of whether I want that functionality or not. It's simply that they're actually standing for something they believe in. To me, that instils a bit more confidence in the team, their individual characters and therefore their browser. Besides, if someone wants such functionality, it is easy enough to add it to the browser themselves via extensions or helper programs - as far as I understand it, the Vivaldi team is not blocking anyone from doing so.
It is not wrong to refuse to code a feature that you don't want. It is also good that the user still has the freedom to add the feature (via extensions), if they so choose.
I am personally skeptical about crypto too. I've not studied it enough to form a concrete opinion "for" or "against", but for me, it has little use beyond investment/speculation, because I don't frequent anywhere online or offline, that accepts crypto for payment. And for investment or speculation, there are other things I understand a tiny bit better.
While my rather long answer on this topic has sadly been lost in two tabs being opened concurrently and the wrong one being saved by the forums when I restarted my PC (I'm never again drafting my in-depth replies in the compositor
!), I wanted to express my support your stance, Jon. Thanks for bringing up the topic. And I've taken my time to at least write up something, again.
My original response was also going into capitalism and society, the causes as of why people want to be rich in the first place, why it is such an seemingly important desire. But I'll leave this for another time.
I've only skipped through the pages of this discussion, because I was mildly amused to see that it's still going on, but I really don't expect good arguments for crypto coins, let alone integrated mining. So I'm sorry that I'm repetitive because either Jon or others have already written most of this, but I'll make it simple and provide 3 theses. I could go on, but I think that should be sufficient if anyone who's really interested wanted to be convinced why crypto coins are just a bad idea.
(1): Issues with the monetry system. Yes, there are issues with money and with the monetary system. But the main issue is not that there can be inflation, that it is not limited and can be reprinted, or that you cannot trust the / your government, at least not for most of us here. The main problem is injustice, that few people own lots and many few.
Bitcoin and the like won't change that inequality. They will likely worsen it with their pyramid schemes, with huge price fluctuations. They are speculative objects and hypes will support those who already own them or invest soon enough, to then also sell soon enough.
(2) Building the pyramid, and how proof-of-work differs from other currencies. There is no actual value for crypto coins. If one buys crypto coins, they bet that price increases because demand increases. If one sells crypto coins, they bet that the price will decrease. It's like going to the lottery, but instead of purchasing a ticket for a fraction of their salary, people will invest.
Let's first compare that to gold and other materials that may also show very arbitrary prices. At least you could find a use case for gold or diamonds, although I do not believe that the price paid for those resembles near true value either. But: Crypto coins are (literally) just hot air. They don't resemble any actual value.
Let's now compare it, as some would, to fiat currency. This typically does not come at a significant cost for the environment. And while there can be crises, fraudster, ..., this all can happen just the same with crypto coins. If you don't trust banks, get a safe. If you don't trust your government, you can trust other governments and purchase their currency.
So why then do people get crypto coins? They purchase a big chunk of hot air with big chunks of money, because they expect that someone else will be dumb enough so that they can sell it for more.
There are advantages of non-fungible coins, but most of these you already have if you pay cash coins. Crypto coins are great for money laundering for sure, or for ransom viruses. For semi-anonymous payments. But there is just no intrinsic value in them or in the concept. The energy invested has vanished, you won't ever get it back. It's nothing.
(3) How it does not work in practice. Transaction costs on the bitcoin ledger have been massive before and may become again, because the number of transactions is limited. Use a system that charges for money transfer, where all credits cards or even pay
palmay be cheaper? It's not practical, you will not be able to use it for purchasing groceries or getting a tea without paying unreasonable fees.There can be made a case that other coins can solve this, but why is Bitcoin still the main crypto coin then? Because it's well-known, because there are people who advertise Bitcoin because they make loads of money if prices rise. See (2). So where can crypto coins be used to actually purchase real goods? Possibly you'll find a page on the clear or dark web for some drugs or weapons.
Much more importantly, people do not check on their own blockchain, they trust brokers. They may not even have their own wallet with their coins, but leave them at brokers, so that they won't be charged all the transactions fees. But if they store all their money at coinbase, where is the difference to trusting banks? Well, yes, banks are regulated and checked, they won't just disappear with money like so many crypto ventures do.
To sum it up, crypto coins do not have a use case (unless you are a crypto scammer), cause harm for the environment, make some people richer (typically those who own) and some people poorer (typically those who buy). But they have no intrinsic value whatsoever.
@jumpsq
A concise statement; a rarity in a fantasy-driven world. For those wanting to invest in fantasy, I recommend a feature-length film; that will at least provide a tax break. For those wanting to buy, sell and trade anonymously: "Bitcoin is not anonymous and cannot offer the same level of privacy as cash" - Bitcoin's FAQ page. Barter software is another option with less hype.
This post, by itself, made a convert out of me. Well done, Vivaldi!
Thank you so much for teaching me this. I've never considered the environmental impact of crypto. I really really liked this post, it shows that the Vivaldi team is not afraid of speaking up. And that's awesome. This post (and the other blog posts it references) have made my day. Keep up the amazing work Vivaldi team!
Thank you and I agree for your attitude
Tulips
@catweazle
My NFT is:
Valuable Price 0.0001 BTC
@doctorg , capitalist
@catweazle Ⓐ I never ever will become such NFT and *Coin trader.
@doctorg, I can imagine, neither do I, nor am I interested in the daily horoscope.
Thank you!!!!! A long-awaited beacon of sanity.
Fiat money has no value but the value we attribute to it. Even those currencies backed by gold, are only worth what we agree gold is worth.
Praise God almighty in the highest![😉](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="32" height="32"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg> ";-)")
I like it!
We've taken Crypto (eth/btc) for almost five years. It works great as currency and legal tender.
Why blame consumption for a production and legacy problem? Crypto uses less energy than traditional banking systems. Energy is effectively infinite in the universe.
Additionally, all bitcoins will eventually be mined - leaving only tranactions to process (fraction of the computing power)
We have paid multiple people around the world in BTC almost instantly. Compared to the slow traditional banking, it is a dream come true.
I totally agree, it does not belong there.
Only people who don't care about security would use a browser based wallet built by the browser programmers.
Bitcoin and the other top coins are not going no any where. There is currently about 25 TRILLON dollars (US) in Bitcoin alone. That kind of value doesn't go away.
Keep considering the issue (just incase you end up on the wrong side of this one)
...but a browser supporting crypto? We don't need that.
Thanks for making your position clear on this matter. Unfortunately like it or not and with all its pros and cons, cryptocurrencies are here to stay and we have to embrace change or be left behind. New user to Vivaldi but really hope its not the next Netscape.
Kudos for that. It's a valuable and important message in a time where organisations and individuals, as musicians or other content creators, get bent by his wave. Thank you.
So sad to see that technical decisions are based on emotions and three very weak arguments.
I LOVE Vivaldi and won't switch to other browsers because of anti-crypto thought. There are enough extensions as replacement.
I am very sure this article will be removed in the future and Vivaldi will need to support at least BTC, since there is a lot getting cooked.
Hint: when you change your mind, you can say .... ammmm context has changed![😉](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="32" height="32"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg> ";)")
Best regards
@ahmad2go said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
If you're talking about Bitcoin, then the energy and hardware use is scary. I would not say that it is a weak argument. An alternative crypto could be far better than Bitcoin in all respects.
People will remain vulnerable to crypto scams, but they are also vulnerable to banking scams, and many other forms of Internet crime.
@pesala , I still think that the underlying problem is not cryptocurrency as such, but the current capitalist system in which it is being implemented.
Creating an anonymous virtual currency in a corrupt to the core capitalist system, "what can go wrong?"
It's not hard to imagine who takes advantage of this, surely not the little cryptominer.
@ahmad2go: "based on emotions" God forbid this be ran by human beings.
Sehr gut dargestellt. Ich sehe das genauso. In meiner Altersgruppe hat man für das Kryptozeug keine Nerven. Mein Geld werde ich auf keinen Fall für derartige virtuelle Machenschaften zur Verfügung stellen. Der Vergleich mit dem Pyramidenspiel ist genau richtig. Irgendwann wird das System zusammenbrechen und der Erfinder der Kryptowährung wird dann im Geld aller Teilnehmer baden. Aber es ist auch klar, dumme Menschen werden es immer geben, die das finanzieren. Nur leider reicht ihre Anzahl bald nicht mehr aus. Das liegt im System der Pyramide.
Schade finde ich nur, dass der Grundbaustein des Lebens ( CO2 ) als negativer Faktor dargestellt wird, und die Energieträger als fossil bezeichnet werden, was ja wirklich nur die Braunkohle ist.
E é por isto que uso o Vivaldi.
And this is why I use Vivaldi.
I was looking for some sort of statement to this a while ago, as Firefox made a move no one expected and Vivaldi is really closer to its users. Appreciate the effort and research put into this, as clearly some of the userbase sounds a bit too enthused into this stupid thing.
I never been that interested into cryptocurrency and you make me think I'll never be. I was already concerned for the social cost, now you added pollution. Thanks for your deep interest in people. That may be what I like the most about Vivaldi's goals.
Crazy thing is, few currencies have any value. Since the gold standard was done away with, USD has no value any more than crypto does. Just like crypto, dollars have value because they are desirable.
@ldpatt , with the difference that money has real equivalents and is not only available in fixed amounts. It is also traceable with a better possibility of avoiding evasions and fraud.
Thank you for labeling it as the ponsi scheme it clearly is! It's the whole reason computer hardware is fleeting and it's a massive waste of energy.
If I wanted a crypto wallet app, I'd get one. Good on you for not jumping into that dumpster fire set of pyramid schemes.
Will Vivaldi be actively blocking access to websites or putting warnings on websites that deal with cryptocurrency, including PayPal? It's a brave stance to take considering it will alienate a number of users who do not think a web browser should control what they can see and do online.
@tgheretford , one thing is that Vivaldi does not participate in the world of cryptocurrency and another thing is that it will prevent the user from doing so, which will surely not be the case.
@tgheretford said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
No, that is not the philosophy of Vivaldi Team.
My respect for Vivaldi just went up another couple of notches. Well done.
Wow!! So much respect. I'm so happy to see my values resonating with Vivaldi.
Wow! Your ignorance is absolutely breathtaking, and it shows that even a company with good ideas can sometimes let out a brain fart.
Imagine if someone argued the following points:
And so on.
"When you strip away the hype, these virtual currencies have very real repercussions for people, society, and the environment. By creating our own cryptocurrency or supporting cryptocurrency-related features in the browser, we would be helping our users to participate in what is at best a gamble and at worst a scam. It would be unethical, plain and simple."
Given that you show an insane amount of ignorance, then let me demonstrate to you why you're speaking nonsense.
Take a look at this social media network that is based on a cryptocurrency called Hive: https://hive.blog
In this blockchain-based social media network, users get paid in a cryptocurrency called Hive. They get rewarded for posting and engaging other users. The user base is made up of people from all over the world. This means that many disadvantage people can develop a source of income by coming up with novel ideas (science, literature, poetry, technology, etc) and sharing them with a community. As an example, there are a large number of Venezuelans, whose lives and livelihoods have been destroyed by leftist socialist policies. Many of them actually earn a living by posting in that website and getting rewarded with cryptocurrency. To those of us living in first world capitalist countries, a few dollars is not much, for these people it's a lifeline to a better life. The same goes for other groups who come from other poor places like Africa. This cryptocurrency social media network has been a financial lifeline for them and allowed them to improve their sometimes dire situations. Yet, here you come with your ill-informed socialist ideas to try and tell us that cryptocurrency is bad for us. Obviously, you haven't done your research and are blinded by your virtue signaling.
Given that your company does not want to support these novel and transformative ideas and has decided to go woke instead, then I will no longer support you. I will uninstall your browser from all my computers.
Go woke, go broke!
@helarios , https://yesterweb.org/no-to-web3/
@helarios said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
That's what you call "going woke"? Not being a fan of cryptocurrency?
@eggcorn said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
"Going woke" plainly just means "not being on the wrong side of history (derogatory)".
@helarios: I could be wrong, but I truly believe that they weren't speaking out against cryptocurrency in general, but more so about weaving it in with web browsers more generally i.e., browsers including crypto wallets out of the box and/or earning X, Y or Z web browser's own type of cryptocurrency for viewing ads etc, etc. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but that was my take. And while I am a user of cryptocurrency , in this context, I agree wholeheartedly that browsers and crypto need not mingle. I'm not saying there's no space in which a browser developer could incorporate cryptocurrency or blockchain technology for the greater good, but to Vivaldi's point, there is a lot of funny business going on in this space at present that perhaps warrant closer inspection as to the underlying motivations etc
Finally someone who gets it! And its my favorite browser!
I love this post but you may want to clarify that vivaldi will not block access to cryptowallets for users, it just won't build one in to the browser for them because there seems to be some confusion in the comments
@chimmpres, I think this has been made quite clear in the blog post, at least if it is not confused by not wanting to use crypto currency and preventing the user from doing so.
Thank you very much for stating the truth about cryptocurrency concisely. I might add plainly that the value of crypto is even less secure than that of fiat money, and the problem with fiat money is being made obvious with the current Bidenflation. The supply of unbacked US dollars was increased too much, so now we have high inflation – the dollars are worth less. Cryptocurrency such as Bitcoin is unbacked also, and worse, no government will try to preserve its value.
Why are Cryptocurrency Ads Taking Over the Superbowl?
Full honour and respect to your statement. I agree upon everything, because I believe this is an important stance, especially in the light of Web3, which many crypto enthusiasts claim to be their platform.
Don't forget about another piece of mess appeared, which is NFT.
@vkvo2000 said in Why Vivaldi will never create ThinkCoin:
NFTs are absolutely insane! The very definition of tulip mania... getting a lot of media coverage recently and I'm pleased to see that a lot of it is about what a rip-off it is.
I am in an investment class, where you can invest in anything using a practice account.
According to my teacher, people have lost over 60% of their original money by buying a bunch of crypto. Thank goodness that it was a practice account.
Millions in Bitcoin Pouring into Ukraine.
In other news, Elon Musk has made Starlink Internet available in Ukraine, and is sending some terminals.
On the other hand...
Avast warns users of crypto scams taking advantage of Ukraine conflict
Agreed. When you say Vivaldi is about "choices and customizability", I immediately think of is custom images on Android speed dials... cryptowallets? not so much.
While I do utilize crypto on occasion and see value in its existence, I also not only see where you're coming from but admire and respect your stance on why you would not incorporate a crypto wallet in-browser. In my mind, a browser is the last place one would want to store their digital coinage, as it is considered not only "hot" storage but also custodial and neither of those features are desirable in a crypto wallet if he, she or they that are looking to store their coins knows what they're doing. It goes without saying that the best way to store any kind of cryptocurrency is in a cold, non-custodial type of wallet. Be it a paper wallet, hardware wallet or simply one that is on a device that is always offline and has no means if connecting to the Internet. But I applaud Vivaldi for taking such a hard line stance and making it known to the public because while I don't necessarily agree 100% that there is no use for cryptocurrency and that it amounts to nothing more than hype, at the same time I do recognize that there is a very considerable hype factor to be taken into consideration and there are plenty of folks out there looking to capitalize on it, some of whom develop web browsers and insofar as that's concerned, this article and Vivaldi's stance on the subject is applicable and beyond that deserves recognition. Other software developers, take notes
agree, i just would never understand, how is it possible to "Create" money out of nothing. and then use those as a proper currency??? how??
it creates more problem than solving any. and as a gamer, i really hate them
@kshatria Most money, including the US Dollar, is created out of nothing. A dollar bill is just a piece of paper. Yet the world considers that piece of paper valuable.
@eggcorn Actually, government-issued money is created out of debt. It is a solemn commitment by the government to redeem its face value.
@ayespy Redeem it's face value for what? Can I go to the US Treasury, and say "Here's my dolor bill. Now give me something of actual value, not a piece of paper". Can anyone?
@eggcorn The dollar is the thing of value. What the government can do, and does, is create the legal requirement, backed by the full authority of the government, that anyone/everyone must accept that dollar in exchange for whatever they have on offer - labor, goods, services, opportunity, whatever. If the seller does not honor the dollar as a unit of exchange but requires something else, the government can literally put them out of business. "Legal tender for all debts public and private."
Given the size and growth of the world economy, there is no precious item or substance in the world sufficient to conduct the exchange of labor, goods and services taking place every day. Hence, the only medium that will serve is money backed by the good faith and credit of governments. All the gold ever mined is worth only 1/8 of the world economy, and all diamonds ever mined are worth less than a fifth of the gold.
To make matters worse, the size of the world economy grows by the minute, while the planetary supply of precious stones and metals does not. Money was invented so we would not have to carry sides of beef, buckets of fish and bushels of grain around to engage in commerce, and government fiat currency was invented so that no one would have to hoard, or lug around, enough gold for the world to engage in commerce.
The fact is, humans produce more value than any item of fixed size, amount or supply can represent. Fiat currency is the only medium capable of doing that job. And what it is, in its most basic form, is trust. The vendor of something must be able to rely on an enforceable fact that whatever they receive in exchange will be exchangeable, in turn, for whatever they need to obtain. That trust, and the symbols of that trust, are money. There is, in the end, no other kind of money.
I'm glad for the stance taken by Vivaldi.
So many message noise on the internet that it is THE only way to future financial freedom.
However, good old common sense and learning about handling finances responsibly remains a good way to go.
Thanks Vivaldi
Absolutely agreed. There is no use for a cryptocurrency when a real currency can replace all of its uses. Not to mention the EXTREME instability. Plus, most browsers with a built-in "crypto wallet" cough opera cough are extremely insecure. Great article as always!
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