You could say the same thing about neoliberalism or any other political or economic system. It's about analyzing why it worked somewhere and not elsewhere, and seeing if it is possible to implement those systems where you live. For example if you want to argue that the US doesn't need a minimum wage because Sweden doesn't have one, you need to adress the fact that Sweden is much, much more unionized than the US.
What even is neoliberalism ? It's a boogeyman word used by the left and the right. Even here on this sub, we can't agree on what neoliberalism is.
Maybe worth mentioning that not every culture is the same and not every culture will respond positively to the same solution. Government isn't one size fits all
Corruption and adept leadership makes a huge difference.
If the world’s population didn’t have to deal with all the bullshit of systematic corruption and inept leadership, we’d be colonizing Mars and figuring out how to terraform the next closest solar system.
Having read more of your replies OP I'm flattered by how you seem to think that only we Nordic countries can implement social democracy sucessfully. You seem to think that the US is so incapable that if it tried to implement some social democratic policies it would always fail.
I disagree.
If a political system has a failure somewhere, that's not proof it's unworkable.
If a political system has success somewhere, that is proof it's workable.
A system that succeeds in one place and fails in another is a theoretically successful system that needs corrections in the places it failed.
It's only when a system fails everywhere that it should be considered a failed system.
If a political system has a failure somewhere, that's not proof it's unworkable.
This a million times. How many times over the last two years have we heard succs and tankies cry over how the US "cannot be reformed" and is irredeemable. It's just pure nonsense.
India is not comparable to Europe and North America economically. India was very socialist since independence with a massive bureaucracy and licensing requirements that lead to massive corruption that still holds it back today. Western Europe and North America didn’t have nearly the amount of regulation that was there in India.
Weren’t the ones in LATAM and such “democratic socialism” not “social democracy”? Massive difference.
LATAM etc is just half-baked “free money” populism, tied into the endless cycle of reactionary left-right politics where we elect a leftist after the rightie fails and a rightie after the leftist fails, going on and on in a grand populist mess until either a dictatorship is installed, a centrist wins, or one of the two actually somehow succeeds, leading to Chile (or Brazil etc), Uruguay, and Bolivia respectively.
I hope the fact that everyone here are dunking on you has made you realize that your reply to me about India and LATAM being examples of socdem failure is very stupid. For those who are wondering, his reply to my comment is where this meme came from.
I agree you can't compare USA to Germany or Scandinavia 1:1, but we're a hell of a lot more similar to Germany and Sweden than we are to Argentina or India.
When I say I support the Nordic Model, I'm not saying we should copy paste their system 1:1. We need to adapt those policies for the USA and implement them one at a time and assess whether they work or not before we move forward. I'm being pragmatic here.
I hope the fact that everyone here are dunking on you has made you realize that your reply to me about India and LATAM being examples of socdem failure is very stupid. For those who are wondering, his reply to my comment is where this meme came from.
As a Brazilian, I consider social democracy to have been a partial failure here. It's nowhere near what we want but it's far better than living in a very laissez-faire country.
For example, I think that healthcare in Brazil is better than American healthcare when we look at the "common person". Sure, if you have some rare disease or are very rich you will be far better in the US, but the fact that Brazil has a public healthcare system allows people to not have to worry about crushing medical debt and allows them to actually go to the doctor instead of just waiting until it's unavoidable like many Americans do.
When it comes to overall healthcare metric Brazil is almost certainly worse off than the USA but our population is much poorer so it's hard to do as much as the US is capable of even with their stupid pseudo-private insurance system.
we're a hell of a lot more similar to Germany and Sweden than we are to Argentina
You say that now, but we also just got over the four year term of a Peronist president, so maybe not so much.
Are we closer to Sweden than Argentina? There’s an argument that given bad things like rates of violence and also good things like birthright citizenship and a more inclusive conception of citizenship and nationalism, we’re more like Latin America than Western Europe.
How is the US more similar to Germany and Sweden instead of Argentina or India ? Are you saying in terms of policy or economic development ?
It’s not intellectually disingenuous. The US is much more similar, particularly in terms of economic and political development, to Northern and Western Europe than LATAM and India. I enjoy dunking on the succs as much as the next person, but a dunking this is not.
It’s actually quite the opposite. The US is in most ways significantly more similar to other new world countries than to relatively small and homogenous European nations. If you take a look at literally any social variable, the US always is around countries like Colombia or at most Australia while European countries are either far ahead or far behind.
The US has way more in common with LATAM countries that largely have federal systems, histories of colonization and revolution, gun rights, and cowboy/vaquero/gaucho culture. Hell, many LATAM countries are more dependent US dollar than their own currency.
The problem is Europe does not apply the same policies that Latin America does. Europe, in general, is much better to run a private business without so many taxes, red tape and labor laws that Latin America has. Not to mention the risk of hyper inflation, price control and financial market control that some LA countries have (Argentina, Venezuela, Bolivia). So it's not really a matter of culture, it's a matter of policy. A counter example is Chile, with pro-market policies and the most developed nation in LA. And Spain, with anti-market policies and a long lasting unemployment rate of 14%.
Focusing on countries with institutional integrity more similar to yours is a good idea. Why should you compare effects of policies in countries with massive institutional corruption or a non independent central bank when your country doesn’t have those problems?
Focusing on the failures of Social Democracy in LATAM, India, and other countries and ignoring its successes in Western and Northern Europe would be equally intellectually disingenuous even if you think this framing is true.
Seems like nuance is important here.
Yea but its an economic ideology that has been mostly a failure across the world besides northern and western Europe, so acting like its a pancea is delusional. I'm moreso arguing against the American social democrats who ignore its failures.
Like I never hear American succs ever discuss the failures of Argentina and India. Corrupt unions, overregulation, protectionism, and high taxes can hold back an economy a lot
Do we really think we won't end up like LATAM? America under socially democratic policies would have high taxes, a lot of protectionism most likely, lower immigration. We all would end up much poorer as a result. American populism very much considers strands of LATAM populism
Totally fine. Definitely a good thing to do. Putting too many eggs in one basket will always lead to short comings. Just wish we could get some political diversity in the US.
The US is a whole lot more like Europe Econ/Institution wise than India or LatAm. Not a intellectually rigorous argument here either.
Disagree, America is probably pretty similar to LATAM. We share presidency system after all. American populism shares a lot of similarities to LATAM populism
I mean, he's admittedly a Republican who's voting Dem. Dude's a neocon, not a neolib. So many neocons have invaded this sub and I don't get why we're all shocked lol
TBF Neoliberalism died in 2008 and we are just here larping it. Go to India or LATAM and ask them how they feel about neoliberalism and the Washington consensus.
It'll swing back.
India or LATAM and ask them how they feel about neoliberalism and the Washington consensus.
Because they're idiots blaming the wrong things for their failures. India still can't establish a mlreal market for food goods, and is actively depressing incomes for most farmers.
Like watching Angentina's government and people blame Capitalist Greed for inflation, while they rely on seigniorage to keep the government afloat.
What's cringe is how far the public has moved away from "neoliberalism" as a result of manufacturered outrage, and outright disinformation they're exposed to non stop on TV and the internet, while actual economists with actual data, are completely ignored.
Bernie crowd don't even know how european social democracy works. They think is just tax the rich to pay for the humungus welfare state, that most industries are government owned and the government regulates the little of private industry it exists.
This is much more similar to social democracy in latin america than in Europe. In the nordic countries, the middle class pays heavy taxes (50% of their income or more), corporate tax and regulation are super low, labor laws are flexible and are some of the easiest economies to start and run a business with little government intervention.
Many people here seem to deny LATAM even has social democracy though, even if its in its non-perfect form... And many people here think social democracy in America would be something that nordic countries have when it'll probably end up what LATAM is doing lmao
Last time I checked, India is still developing alongside worker strikes in the MILLIONS of people, and LATAM ‘failures’ stem from systemic interventions by the American CIA, so…
Yeah, American is mixed results.
In my opinion you need a well-developed economy for social democracy to work, and the best way to get to that point is through low taxes and deregulation, but once you're there it's generally the best system.
What those western and northern European nations have is actually stronger capitalism. As measured in degrees by indices of private property rights, free markets, ease of starting business, etc. They are in many cases even higher than the US.
India before liberalisation (1947-1991) had no capitalism at all, and today has a mixed economy and the little opening of the market has led to incredible growth, (and better ability to support social programs) - but its capitalism (measured by same standards) is still way behind.
Nordic countries have high degrees of private run healthcare, schools - the govt mostly pays the bills with higher taxes. The wealth comes entirely from the strong capitalist economy. How on earth is ANY of this a good argument for anticapitalists or socialists? It only shows the desperation of anticapitalists of all flavours that they cling to capitalist economies which are barely social democracies as "their" example. It IS entirely intellectually disingenious.
Almost like America overthrowing democratically elected leaders in Latin America might destabilize their society. Who knew!
Sure, because it's not like the US has more economic, cultural, and political similarities to W or N Europe compared to LATAM or India, who were export oriented dirt poor nations in the early post war period.
This is a very good post because as much as Americans don’t want to admit it, they’re much more similar to Latin Americans than they are to Europeans socially. Especially now as literally a significant portion of Americans has not-so-distant roots in those Latin American countries.
American populism is literally the same strand of LATAM populism. And we share the presidency system as well.
oh wow thats fair.... could someone name a type of government that works everywhere universally for comparison?
massive corruption problems in all LATAM countries kinda srip them of the 'neolib' moniker imo. neolib requires some type of democracy, but many politicians in these places can make one or two bad policies and find themselves in car trunk while their beheaded face is sent to their successor to remind him not to do the same
India.. western European social democracy.
Explain please. Is this including the UK in this monicker?
Speaking as an American Succ but who is actually rational and prefers results over ideology (i.e. like much of this sub), I think the biggest takeaway is that a prerequisite for succ policies succeeding are strong institutions to prevent and punish corruption. In the absence of those protections, they may well do more harm than good.
The failures of Succism around the world can largely be attributed the temptation that comes with having control of the government money spigot. Often inefficiencies develop but they aren't dealt with because the powers that be need to maintain the recipients in order to maintain power. Those range from inefficient programs key voting blocks want to rewarding control of state owned companies to incompetent but well placed figures in the military.
That and protectionism. Protectionist tendencies, which fosters its own forms of corruption and corporate welfare as the beneficiaries seek to profit and prevent being beaten by better foreign competition, has been a huge anchor on left wing developing countries.
More mixed economies (and open for global trade!) are generally able to do better against corruption because the free market making those propped up inefficiencies less tenable.
Young democracies may well not have sufficiently strong institutions that they can support a robust social state without it rotting or backsliding into authoritarianism but with a red coat of paint.
This is a strawman of a meme
The US is at or above the development levels of Western/Northern Europe and both areas are basically different planets in terms of institutional capacity to India, LATAM, etc.
This is an impossible test for any social, political or economic system to pass 100% of the time. Given a long enough timeline all such systems trend towards failure; like in Anna Karenina, all happy systems are happy because of the absence of large failures, any of which can bring down the whole thing, and which will randomly arise demanding a solution. So the existence of failures just tells you the system has been tried.
Not saying failure rate is a useless metric, it just points to some of its weaknesses, which we can discuss how likely they are to creep into another system that tries to follow. Contemporary examples of it working are much more useful IMO as proof by existence than examples of it not working.
I don't understand the equivalence here. Aren't the failures from these examples due to bad monetary policy, overreaching price controls, and central planning? Implementing more social democratic policies here in America aren't dependent on those.
Damn this sub has really been taken over by succs if THIS post is controversial 😂
Benchmarks usually don't focus on failures because the entity in question has already navigated past such calamities.
Ah yes India with its caste system and sectarian violence amongst different religious groups totally respects the tenants of social democracy
Neoliberalism works in some countries and doesn't work in other countries because of institutions and social norms. No I will not elaborate.
What I've learned from reddit:
If it capitalism and it fails, it is capitalism.
If it is capitalism and it succeeds, it is because it is secretly socialism.
If it is socialism and it succeeds it is socialism.
If it is socialism and it fails, it is because it is actually secret crony capitalism.
American immigration system > European welfare system. Support for welfare and immigration seem to be negative correlated (tho the direction of causation isn't clear). Anyone who cares about the global poor should support the American model over the European.
The US is a form of social democracy. It has been since the late 1930's. All that term means is a democracy where taxes are collectively spent on social infrastructure programs. It doesn't even replace capitalism...it just regulates it.
Pre-chavez social democracy in Venezuela was amazing so making a broad statement on LATAM is incorrect. Plus, I disagree with this idea that you need to judge a system by successes and failures if that system has succeeded in one place. The mentioned countries have far different circumstances than LATAM, India, etc. LATAM for example was caught right in the middle of the Cold War and unfortunately had a small affliction known as "operation Condor". And if we were to abide by this logic there's no such thing as a good system because there has been at least example of system from each ideology failing at one point in history. Can we conclude that the failures of South American governments in the 90s are because of the implementation of economic liberalism? Or rather, poor government planning, corruption, authoritarianism, etc.
In case you still aren’t aware, within the last few hours many images have been shared of absolutely horrific mass killings of civilians in Ukraine. Apparently before retreating, the Russian forces seem to have decided to execute every male aged 16-60, with many with their hands tied behind their back. Many were then dumped in mass graves, the sewers, or just left in the streets. This appears to have repeated in village after village throughout the Kyiv oblast. Personally my gut feeling is that these images have serious potential of pushing the world over the edge and potentially getting involved in this conflict. Absolutely brutal, horrific stuff.
r/Place is being resurrected by the admins. For those of you who aren't familiar, the basic idea is that Reddit provides a canvas and users can place pixels onto the canvas to form an image. Once a pixel is placed, it can be overwritten by anyone else - nothing is permanent. For some history, see this Wikipedia page.
r/Neoliberal and fellow lib-sphere subreddits including r/NonCredibleDefense, r/GlobalTribe, r/EnoughCommieSpam and r/Enough_Sanders_Spam have formed a coalition to leave our mark on r/Place this year. NCD will be joining our logo and GlobalTribe will be putting the Earth Flag just above and to the left of our image, while Enough_Sanders_Spam will be placing their logo beneath ours.
If any other lib-sphere subreddits would like to join us, please get in touch!
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