[jackal28]

Currently researching better means by which to create the best phosphate coating. It does involve the use of Manganese Nitrate as a source, but the Manganese Dioxide, as some have seen, is not readily soluble in water (black sludge) which can lead to a more difficult process. Although somewhat effective, these homemade solutions w/ manganese dioxide, are not "on par" with the commercial solutions available.
I have been experimenting and researching the best ways to get an even, thorough, coating at home for less money given a larger quantity. My previous solution to this was Manganese Dioxide, through the use of parkerizing, cleaning, parkerizing, cleaning, etc etc etc. Eventually you may obtain a good even coating. The insolubility of the managnexe dioxide plays a role in hindering the process as it settles on the metal, thus blocking the process.
Also, the addition of nitric acid seems to accelerate the parkerizing process, but I will continue to experiment in a safe environment.
If you guys have any input for "at home" solutions, please feel free to add.
Store/ Commercial bought products are currently the best/ safest method, at least, until their "secret" ingredients are deciphered.
My last project turned out wonderfully, but I believe there to be a better method.

Messing around with chemicals can be dangerous, deadly, and expensive. As always, do so at your own risk.

 

[jackal28]

Here is a experiment regarding the phosphate coating process. Pretty interesting stuff for all of you chemists or chemically inclined gunsmiths out there.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6316882/

 

[jglenn]

So you are in essence pulling the product cleaning it in ?? And then re-immersing it into the solution ? Multiple times.?

 

[jackal28]

Finally Found the Formula

So you are in essence pulling the product cleaning it in ?? And then re-immersing it into the solution ? Multiple times.?

Yes, that is what it took with the Manganese Dioxide.

Theoretically, the parkerizing is uneffected by the phosphoric acid which means that there would be a limitless amount of time that you could submerge the iron/steel into the solution until it is fully coated and no longer reacting. That being said, I wouldn't try this with a non-commercial product, nor would I test it by leaving it in past the reactive (bubbles of hydrogen) point.


Finally, I have found the commercial solution. So while the layman has to use Manganese Dioxide to create the Manganese Di-hydrogen Phosphate (active ingredient) an alternate source as well as an accelerator is still required. Manganese Nitrate seems to be the main missing ingredient of "at home" solutions. Manganese Citrate is also excellent, but due to the expense and the fact that its a controlled substance, is unrealistic.

I hate to reiterate, but obviously for 1 or a few times usage it is most financial viable utilizing LCW's, Brownell's, or Allegeny Arsenal's (best deal for over 1 gallon) solution.

Although, if you are an avid DIY'er or just have to know, like me, below is the formula that I found for commercial parkerizing:

Water 60% - 100%
Phosphoric acid 5% - 10%
Manganese dihydrogen phosphate 10% - 30%
Manganese nitrate 1% - 5%
Nickel nitrate 0.1% - 1%
Iron sulphate 0.1% - 1%
Cobalt dinitrate 0% - 0.1%

This is from a prominent company regarding chemical applications and corrosion prevention, and I doubt the DIY solutions have any where near this level of additives, but this solution would make it about perfect. Also the reactive temperatures are around 190F minimum to 209F Maximum. I would stick with 195-200 for best results and to avoid boiling/ excess loss of water. I have a quote request into this company now for how much they will sell a pail of their solution for. I will update as soon as I know.

 

[jackal28]

If you would like to use a powder instead of steel wool, this is the best deal I've found:

ArtMolds Iron Powder 1-lb on Amazon.com

Its only 11.99 per pound. I use 1lb per gallon, which is about right for the coffee filter method, but you may be able to use less a different way.

Same directions as brownells w/ the coffee filter, but may be able to use less in powder form. The only problem with the powder form is that if it makes it to the bottom of the pot, a pile, will Parkerize and no longer react or be removable with conventional means.

I accidentally had one of my filter bags break and it did exactly that.

 

[jackal28]

If you are making your own, you can purchase Manganese (II) Nitrate Solution, 50% Aqueous, Laboratory Grade, 100 mL here:
https://www.carolina.com/catalog/detail.jsp?prodId=873890&s_cid=ppc_gl_products&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&scid=scplp873890&sc_intid=873890&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImcK9wq7j4wIVh4CfCh2qNQ2cEAkYASABEgJ12PD_BwE

You should use Manganese Nitrate as your main source of Manganese for the production of Manganese Phosphate, but I understand that the cost can be prohibitively expensive.

Nitric Acid added to the mix in small amounts works as an excellent accelerator of the process.

As always messing with chemicals can be EXTREMELY DANGEROUS, DISASTROUS, and DEADLY. If you choose to experiment, be prepared and everything you do is always at your own risk.

If you want to add Nickel to the mix, the best bet would be to just purchase Nickel Nitrate.

BEWARE THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS AND THE FUMES CAN BE DEADLY

It can be made via Nitric Acid and Nickel Strips/ Nickel Coated "anything", etc. Following which you allow the liquid to evaporate:

BEWARE THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS AND THE FUMES CAN BE DEADLY

 

[jackal28]

Reiterate Nickel Nitrate Production:

BEWARE THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS AND THE FUMES CAN BE DEADLY

 

[jackal28]

Question:
Parkerizing will rust is no oil/ sealant is applied. The question is, is it possible to post rust blue a parkerized finish to make it blacker/ more even?
Has anyone tried this?

 

[jglenn]

Have you tried the blackening pre dip. Works pretty well with brownells.

 

[jackal28]

Yep, I've used it, but I'm not sure how much it does. I do believe it is good to help with a final degreasing/ uniform parkerizing, but it seems like most of the blackness flakes off like dust either during the parkerizing or during the post parkerizing scrubbing.

The way I did it was to use the black dip, and then to get the gun up to temperature, use a rolling boil distilled water rinse so the gun dries quickly.

Many people say that preheating is not important, but I do believe that if you want a dark coat it is very important. I did a slide after a frame once, with only the frame being preheated and it made much more difference in the color then the black dip did.

 

[jackal28]

For a dark manganese parkerized finish, what do most people see as the best post parkerizing treatment. I've heard of Mobile 1, but that still leaves it pretty susceptible to corrosion. I've also heard about ATF, but the red dye may stain, well, everything.

As it takes ALOT of lube/ corrosion prevention post treatment, what would be an affordable yet reliable method of soaking up?

There doesn't seem to be as much information about post parkerizing, then the parkerizing itself.

I'm on my second Audi and have two expensive bottles of Euro Haldex Fluid...I wonder if that would be good as it is made much like ATF, but completely clear.

 

[jackal28]

Here are the latest pics that I promised. As you can see, I was going for an as black as possible finish.
It's a Remington 1911 Enhanced w/ threaded barrel. I ended up getting it for only $475 NIB, and everything about it was top notch. The only problem was the pitiful attempt at bluing. Some of the coat got scratched of by a copper brush which I was using to remove brass from a tap.

I also refit a new BGS which I had to fit to .220 Wilson Cut radius as I wanted the concealed BGS. Anyways, it was either touch up blue (which would have never been even), or go with my good ole' reliable parker finish.

One note, get an ultrasonic cleaner, it will save tons of time and energy. I degreased with it, right after parkerizing, removed excess salt/ particles with it, turned out better then scrubbing. Finally, I did an oil application with it. It took about 1.5 hours to completely saturate with oil. The ultrasonic method was very effective as you could tell when it was done by watching the tiny bubbles of the gun replaced with oil.
1.5 hours versus 5 days soaking, not bad.

Also, there is no need to get the expensive, name brand, unless you want to. Mine was a 6.5L Made from, what I could tell to be, a 1/3 6" deep resteraunt pan which made accessories for it very cheap and abundant. This is the one I got:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QFRBY7B/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Oh, and yes, the sights went through it all to although I did tape over the trijicon itself during blasting, but that was it. Somehow, even with the black dip, the white paint never came off. I really expected it to as I was going to change it to a bright orange, but Novak uses some crazy strong paint.

Turns out its actually a Vevor brand which was a dutch company, but I couldn't imagine doing another gun coating without it.

Also, since I had no cabinet, I had to use a gravity fed bead blaster from Harbor Freight, which worked great w/ 80 grit glass beads.

 

[Autonomous]

Just a random thought. Fluid Film is a wool wax we salt water boaters use with great success to prevent corrosion. Dunno if anyone has ever experimented with it on parkerized surfaces.

 

[jackal28]

Just a random thought. Fluid Film is a wool wax we salt water boaters use with great success to prevent corrosion. Dunno if anyone has ever experimented with it on parkerized surfaces.

Definitely never would have thought of it, but it sounds solid. I may try it. Worse case, I can always degrease. From its claims it sounds like a good idea. What color is it?

 

[jackal28]

Has anyone ever tried the post chromic acid rinse per military specs?
I did find Alodine (Bonderite), I am curious as this is a chromic acid based coating, would a diluted solution of Alodine as a post rinse be beneficial?

 

[jackal28]

Much has been speculated as to what the sought after green tint may be in the military parkerizied weapons. I am beginning to believe that more and more it is due to the chromic acid rinse. Chrome oxide is a very green substance often utilized in pottery to create a green tint.

Any chemists out there, help me out here.

Also, it seems that if mixing your own solution, manganese carbonate, not dioxide, may be the best solution for the manganese content required.

Also, as stated before, nickel nitrate, and nitric acid are also excellent additives for activation, uniformity, and strength of coat.

Keep in mind that mixing different chemicals can be extremely dangerous. I have the correct equipment and will be testing some of these reactions, following much much more research at my own risk.

 

[Autonomous]

Definitely never would have thought of it, but it sounds solid. I may try it. Worse case, I can always degrease. From its claims it sounds like a good idea. What color is it?

Fluid Film is mostly transplant. It can be tenacious which is why it works so well.

 

[jackal28]

Many people have created or posted their own Manganese Parkerizing Treatments.
I did a LOT of research regarding a DIY solution. YES its much more expensive then prebought, but I decided I'd share it anyways.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++Treatment++++++++++++
UTILIZING CHEMICALS CAN BE DANGEROUS, DISASTEROUS, AND DEADLY. DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK
FYI Searching for 1/3 or Third Size on Amazon will list multiple affordable sizes of Polycarbonate or Stainless Steel Tanks
(these pans are only useful up to 10" barrels)
With solutions use either HDPE, (true)Stainless Steel, or PYREX

1a. Degrease 5 minutes
-*Ultrasonic
-**Lye 10% Boiling

2. Rinse
-Distilled 3 minutes (Room Temp)

3. Blast (25lbs) - 120 Aluminum Oxide

1b. Degrease 5 minutes (as needed)
-*Ultrasonic w/ Solution optional Simple Green Addition (recommended)
-**Lye 10% Boiling 80-85C

4a. Rinse
-Distilled 3 minutes Boiling (keep metal temperature high)

5. Etch - Remove possible flash rust (gallon formula)
3 minutes - HCL (Muriatic Acid) Tom Thumb 15% w/ 1-10mL 3% Hydrogen Peroxide (3 minutes)

4b. Rinse
-Distilled 3 minutes Boiling (keep metal temperature high)

5. Activating (4 minutes 100-110 degrees)
-***Manganese Phosphate 8g (from Manganese Carbonate and Phosphric Acid)
-Sodium pyrophosphate 8g (NA4P2O7) Ebay
-Distilled Water 1 gallon

6. Phosphate Bath (Allow at least 1-2 hour for Iron and Manganese carbonate conversion before (Dip 15 minutes+ 195-210 degrees)) - Theoretically, because the Phosphate surface will no longer react, the amount of time would be unlimited (THEORETICALLY)
In a previous DIY solution I submerged 3 different times, cleaning between each due to initial low Manganese Soluability (Manganese Dioxide Method) totaling 45 minutes
The previous DIY was no where near as technical as this solution.
-1 Gallon Distilled Water
-134.5 grams of Manganese Carbonate
-117.45 ml or 1/2cup of Phosphoric Acid (takes into account the Mn(PO4)2 Req)
-Optional----55.5ml of 50% Aqueos Solution Manganese Nitrate
-Optional---->2grams Nickel Carbonate (pottery supply, etc.)
-Optional----<2grams Potassium Nitrate or Sodium Nitrate (CAN GIVE OFF DEADLY GAS) No more than 2.5 Grams %100 per gallon
-<32 grams 6.25% Curing Salt

7. Rinse (3 minutes)
-Distilled Water
-Optional----Passivation via Zirconium or Fluorosilicic acid along w/ Nitrates and Salts,
not for DIY unless commercial use/ military/ combat environments - expensive and/ or dangerous
-Optional 2--Chromic Acid diluted solution (mil-spec) also expensive and/or dangerous

8. Treatment
-Oils, Gun Oils, ATF, Graphite Based Lubricants, ETC.
*Ultrasonic Oil Impregnation is probably one of the fastest ways to saturate all pores fully
Tested between 1.5 to 2 hours of Ultrasonic Lubrication until fully saturated (no more bubble/ no more absorbtion )

 

[jackal28]

I'm actually going to use Audi/VW Haldex fluid. It's specifically engineered for exactly what a gun seems to need, much like ATF, except its clear, there is no smell and only a slight yellow color.

 

[jackal28]

Parker Boosters

Im getting ready to parkerize another 1911. It seems like most people like the premade instead of DIY which I don't blame them as I do as well. Because of this I developed an activation bath mixture, as well as, a Parkerizing Bath Booster which will work with Manganese as well as Zinc, although it may make Zinc darker. It is designed to create smaller, more dense, crystals with extra nuclei to produce layer upon layer of said dense crystals which are more uniform in shape and have a smoother (rounded) external layer of crystals.

Included in the boosters are other chemicals and metals which effect the inhibition of corrosion. Obviously, I am doing them myself first. Hopefully buy this weekend I will have the chemicals needed for the passivation of the Manganese surface which will layer chromium, zirconium, and silica, ions into the substrates of the finish thus providing even more corrosion protection, even before oiling.
Which, call me crazy, but I'm actually using VW/ Audi's Haldex fluid (after a layer of Eezox drys) for the hot oil soak.

All together this should be well beyond any mil-spec coating. I am adding in some components which are bases for self-healing materials. If your wondering why the commercial DIY products don't contain this stuff, its because one, they would make it ugly, and two it would not be economical. DIY solutions are designed to be good enough.

I still need to get a look at Palmetto's, but from what I've seen. The most complete formula seems to be from Brownell's as they also include nitric acid/ or nitrates.

Wish me luck. I attached pictures of the activation bath components (for 2 gallons of water), and the two different booster solutions(dry, wet (not water)).

One thing I know for sure is that activation plays a HUGE role in the phosphating process to produce the most durable, uniform, dense coating.