ダライ・ラマ インタビュー
実施日：1998年9月30日 September 30, 1998
場所：インド ダラムサラ Dharamsala, India
●チベットの未来と自由 Freedom and the Future of Tibet
－チベットの将来についてどう考えるか。
私は仏教と仏教文化とを区別している。仏教は仏教徒のものだが、仏教文化には、仏教徒ではない者であっても従うことができる。チベットの将来は、チベットの仏教文化を基盤に調和がとれ、平和で、幸福な社会が出来上がることを私は思い描いている。それはまた、環境が保護される社会でもある。仏教文化は物質的な価値よりもむしろ内面的な価値を重視する。そこにはより大きな満足があり、環境の破壊はより小さい。私は教育や家庭生活などを通して幸福な社会を創造することは可能だと思っている。
Q : I would like to begin by thanking you very much indeed for allowing us this the privilege of this opportunity to talk with you, on behalf of the students and staff members of Kyoto Seika University. May I start by asking Your Holiness what is your own vision of the future of Tibet?
DL : Now, between Buddhist culture, and Buddhism, I usually make a distinction. Buddhism means for Buddhists. But Buddhist culture -- even a non-believer, or a believer in some other religious tradition, also can practice, or follow Buddhist culture. So on the basis of Tibetan Buddhist culture, I see a harmonious, peaceful, happy society -- also preserving the environment. In a Buddhist culture, usually the emphasis is on the importance of inner values, rather than just material values, so, there is more contentment, and the environment could suffer less destruction. I think it is very possible to create a happy society, mainly through education, and also through family life, and so on. So that's my view, my vision.
－日本そして日本人はチベットのために何ができるだろうか。
日本には長く特別な伝統があり、同時に高度な物質的進歩を遂げたと思っている。私は初めてあなたの国を訪れて以来、いつも精神的な発達、すなわち内面の価値と物質的発達を両立しなければならないと言ってきた。日本人にはそれを自分たちで実現できる潜在的能力と機会があり、他の人々の見本となり得るのだ。近年日本を訪問した後で、私は古い友人にこう話した。経済発展はいずれ限界を迎える。その時、容易に対処できるように心の中で準備しておいたほうが賢明だと。精神的な発達と物質的な発達の両立を心がければ、個人としても家族としてもより幸せになれる。そのような家族が組み合わされば、さらに幸福な社会ができあがるのだ。それゆえ、当面日本は少なくともチベットの物質的な発展に貢献することができる。
一方で、内面的価値の発展、すなわち精神的発達を実現するために、仏陀の法がある。これは仏教の伝統的教えで、すべての人は愛や慈悲を基にした内面的平和を創り出す可能性をもっている。仏陀への祈りだけでなく、仏陀の法を通して自分自身の心の中でこのことを大切にすることは、とても有意義なことだ。もちろん我々は仏陀に祈る。しかし大切なことは仏陀自身が述べているように『汝自身の支配者になれ』ということだ。行いのすべては個人に依拠するものなのだ。実に仏陀の法は個人の心を変革してくれる。伝統的に日本は仏教の国でもある。それゆえ、確かにあなたがたは我々を援助できる。
Q : What can Japan and the Japanese people do for Tibet?
DL: Firstly, I feel you also have a long tradition, and a special tradition, and at the same time, you also have achieved quite high material progress. Since my first visit to your country, I expressed to my Japanese friends that the spiritual or mental development, or inner values, and the material development, these two things must combine, and our Japanese brothers and sisters have the potential and also the opportunity to achieve (this combination) by yourselves, and also to make an example to others. Then after my last visit to Japan, I told some of my old friends, regarding economic development, it is quite obvious that one day you may reach a certain stage from where there is no further progress. Well, sooner or later that situation will happen, so it is far better to prepare in your mind, so that when the situation becomes difficult you can handle it more easily. So I feel the basic belief combination of spiritual development or mental development, and material development, if you combine these two, then as an individual you will be a happier person, and with that your family will be more happy, or more successful, and combining such families then there could be a happier society. So naturally, in the future of Tibet, you can make a contribution, at least for the time being, to material development. Certainly our Japanese brothers and sisters can give help, as they do in China proper. Another thing, in order to develop inner values, or mental development, there is certainly Buddha-dharma. All major Buddhist traditions all have the potential to create inner peace on the basis of the sense of brotherhood and sisterhood, and love and compassion -- the old, major Buddhist tradition. This is certainly very useful to humanity, and particularly through the Buddha-dharma, placing more emphasis on one's own mental attitude, rather than just on prayers to Buddha or things like that. Of course we do pray to Buddha, but the main emphasis is, as Buddha himself always stated, that "You are your own master," so everything depends on the individual, from one's own practice, and through analytical meditation. Certainly the Buddha-dharma can help to transform human mind. In Japan, of course, traditionally the Buddha-dharma is one of your religions, so certainly you can help us.
－あなたは40年前にチベットを脱出、インドへの亡命を余儀なくされた。その間多くの困難や苦しみを経験されてきたことと思う。どのようにして心の平和を保持しつづけたのか。
私個人の経験で、悩みを乗り越える上で間違いなく助けになったのは仏陀の法だ。もちろんある状況下で、怒りや憎しみ、それに嫉妬といった感情が生じるのは自然のことである。仏法の修行の中心には、これらネガティブな感情が、いかに多くの害を我々に与えるかを教えるものがある。状況がこれらネガティブな感情を引き起こすのに充分なものであっても、その破壊性を自覚することで、最初からこれらの悪感情と距離を保つことができる。そして慈悲、寛容、精神的和解といった感情を意図的に増大させることができるのだ。ポジティブな感情を意識的に広げることでネガティブな感情を解消する。このように心の持ち方によって大きな違いが生まれてくる。私自身の経験では、仏教の教えの実践が日常の生活の中で、とくに困難な状況に直面した際には大きな力となり、心の平和を維持することに役立つ。心の平和があれば困難な事態は消失する。
Q : You were forced to leave Tibet nearly 40 years ago, and the Chinese occupation of Tibet has been so brutal and relentless. In these circumstances, how have you retained your apparent inner peace and your commitment to a non-violent solution?
DL : In my own personal experience, certainly the Buddha-dharma is very very helpful, to stop worry. My point is of course, under certain circumstances it is quite natural to experience the emotions such as anger, hatred, jealousy... these things, you see, happen. At the center of Buddhist practice is that you have clear awareness of how much harmfulness there is in these negative emotions. So therefore when the circumstances are such that there is every possibility to develop these negative emotions, because you have clear awareness of the destructiveness of these utterly negative emotions, therefore, right from the beginning you have an attitude of distance from these emotions. You do not welcome them. So although sometimes negative emotion, maybe destructive emotion, may arise, however, it is much weaker. And then on the other hand, you deliberately try to increase compassion, forgiveness, and spiritual reconciliation and so on. So you see, through a combination, one antidotes (counters) these negative emotions by deliberately extending positive emotions. That way, you see, the mental attitude can change, can have different attitude or feeling. In my own experience the Buddhist teaching, the practice of Buddha-dharma, is really helpful in our daily life, particularly when you face a tragic situation, and it is helpful to sustain your peace of mind. If you have peace of mind, then the difficult situation fades, because your mental attitude is peaceful, more calm, therefore you can handle such a situation more peacefully, or more gently. So this is nothing so special in my case -- all genuine Buddhist practitioners have this kind of experience. I know quite a number of Tibetans, who have been practicing their Buddha-dharma sincerely, and they also have this kind of inner peace. For one example, there's a Tibetan monk I know very well -- in early '80 he joined us here in India from Tibet, after he spent more than eight years in a Chinese prison. One day I had a long talk with him about his experiences, during that difficult period, and he told me that he had faced some danger on a few occasions. I asked, "What danger?" Then he told me: "The danger of losing compassion towards the Chinese." I mean, that is the sign of genuine practice. So he considered losing compassion, or developing negative emotions, in this case towards the Chinese, he considered this bad, not right. So he was deliberately trying to keep compassion, a sense of caring towards the Chinese, and whenever this situation was such that this kind of attitude was diminishing, he considered that dangerous. So wonderful! But also some Tibetans are really really furious towards the Chinese now. One more example, a Tibetan lad who came I think in '59. Since then he has lived in India as a refugee. One day I asked him about his feeling towards the Chinese -- I asked him, "Do you feel anger towards the Chinese?" Then before his answer came, his cheek was shaking, trembling, then his face became red, then he said "Oh yes, certainly, I feel very very very angry!" Of course it's understandable -- Tibetans are also human beings. However, as I mentioned earlier, when people are really devoted towards Buddha-dharma then they have a different sort of mental attitude. It's wonderful. So the person, himself or herself, gets more inner peace.
－あなたにとって＜自由＞とは何を意味するか。
とても重要なことだ。一人の仏教僧として私は次のように考える。すべての生きとし生けるものは幸せを求め、苦しみを乗り越えたいという願望を持っている。そしてすべてのものは苦しみを克服する権利を持っている。我々人間は知性によって他人を助けるのと同様、自分自身を守る強い能力も持っている。 個人の創造性は人間の最も重要な価値の一つだ。創造性という人間の性質を充分に生かそうとする際、制限や拘束があれば、精神的にこの可能性を弱めることになる。だからこそ我々には自由が必要なのだ。たとえ小さな子供であっても、家庭や学校で、そこに自由の雰囲気、解放された環境があれば発達はずっと健康的でより良いものになる。一方環境がいつも抑圧的で堅苦しいものであったら、本来もつ可能性が小さくなる。それゆえ幸福な人間社会、健全な共同体を作るためには自由にむけての個人的な努力が大変重要だ。さて全体主義について見てみよう。２０世紀の初頭には国家と同じく個人も全体主義、独裁主義のシステムをもった社会への変容を経験した。それは極めて困難な時代だった。人間は社会的な動物である。私は人間の最も基本的な性質は、優しさであると考える。だから他者への思いやりや協力の気持ちが本来すべての始まりだ。しかしながら、困難で抑圧的な状況下では、時として思いやりの気持ちは失われてしまう。自分自身が他者からの思いやりで包まれていないと、他者に対して思いやりを持つことは困難だ。一つ付け加えたいことは、時として自由と権利を熱心に求めるあまり、責任についての意識が希薄になることがあるという事だ。権利と責任は両立しなければならない。完全な自由を持つということは、より大きな責任を持つということを意味する。誰か他者に物事が支配されていれば、責任は他者にあるので、責任にわずらわされることはない。しかし、人が完全な自由を持っていれば、より大きな責任感を持つべきだ。これを一つの機会と考え、正しく肯定的に活用しなければならない。私はそのように＜自由＞という言葉について考える。
Q : Our university was founded during a period of intense questioning of educational ideals, in the belief that freedom and autonomy are vital elements in the development of responsible individuals. So, can I ask, what does 'freedom' mean to you personally?
DL : It's very important! As a Buddhist monk, I feel this way: although all sentient beings have the desire for happiness, and desire to overcome suffering, and all sentient beings have the right to overcome suffering, then the difference among human beings is that we have better intelligence, so therefore I think only human beings can develop altruism -- infinite altruism. Some of the social animals can develop some sense of responsibility or sense of caring, and to some extent, even some animals also have altruism... but we human beings, we have the capacity to develop infinite altruism, and of course, because of our intelligence, you see, we have much more ability to protect ourselves, as well as to help others. The human individual initiative, or human individual creativity, that's one of the most important treasures of human beings. Now, in order to utilize the nature of human creativity properly, or fully, if there's some kind of restriction, some kind of rigid restriction there, then emotionally, or mentally, eventually it can weaken this potential. So we need freedom! Even small children, in the family, or in the class, if you have some kind of atmosphere of freedom, atmosphere of open air there, then their development could be much healthier, much better. On the other hand, if the atmosphere is always somehow tense, with some kind of pressure, suppression, then that natural potential will decrease. Therefore, in order to develop a happier society, a happier human community, successful human community, the individual effort is very, very essential. Now look at the totalitarian system. I think in the earlier part of this century, people, as well as nations, experimented with the transformation of society or the country through totalitarian systems, the dictatorship system. That's difficult, very very difficult. Individual freedom is the basis of further development.In everything, I feel (that) the basic human nature is gentleness, because the human being is a social animal. Therefore, the sense of caring for one another, the sense of cooperation, that is by nature the beginning. However, under difficult or suppressive circumstances, then I think the sense of caring for one another is sometimes lost. Without a sense of being cared for oneself, by others, as a result you yourself also then find it difficult to show a sense of caring for others. So, in order to maintain or increase, or utilize I think one of the most important parts of human nature, that is caring for one another, sharing (with) one another, I feel also that freedom, individual liberty, is very essential. Another thing I want to add is that sometimes people have more enthusiasm about freedom and rights... but less thorough awareness about responsibility. I think the rights and the responsibility, these must go together. If you have complete freedom, complete liberty, that means you have more responsibility. So generally speaking, if things are controlled by someone else then the responsibility is on another, so you may have the tendency to not bother with responsibility. But on the other hand, if you have complete freedom, then you see, then you should have more sense of responsibility -- (feeling that) I have this opportunity, now I must, you see, utilize it properly, positively. So that is my view of the word "freedom".
●教育と若者 Education and Youth
－あなたはどのような教育を受けてきたか。
もちろん私は現代教育を受けた経験がない。私はチベットの古い伝統的な仏教の教育を受けた。私は仏教が＜解放＞ということを非常に強調しているように感じている。＜精神的自由＞という文脈の中での内面的解放、内的自由という意味だ。ネガティブな感情は、それに操られている以上、悩みや災いの一番の源だ。さらに社会の中では、主として身体的なレベルで誰かに支配された状態は苦痛で、充分に人生を楽しむことができない。私は仏教の考えというものは社会的なレベルでも同様だと思う。私の経験では仏教の修行が私の人生にとって極めて適切で有益だった。
Q : We want to ask you about education, so, could you share with us any personal experience in your own education that illustrates this?
DL : Education...? Of course I have no experience of modern education! I trained in the Tibetan old traditional Buddhist education system, but I feel like in some other Indian paths or traditions, that Buddhism has very much emphasis on liberation --so liberation means here, now in the context of spiritual freedom. Liberation means some kind of inner liberation, inner freedom. Now negative emotions are the ultimate source of trouble, and suffering -- so long as those emotions control you, there is no freedom. So getting rid of these negative emotions, that we call liberation, freedom. Similarly, in society, mainly at the physical level, if someone controls you, it's difficult. You can not enjoy life fully, therefore, I think that the Buddhist concept is quite similar at the society level. So, according to my experience, in my life, I feel the Buddhist training is quite helpful, or relevant, useful, in the society or in the general field.
－日本の若い世代に何かメッセージを。
先に述べたように、人はその人自身の支配者だ。すなわち人は自分自身で正しい道を見つけなければならない。私は自分の経験から日本の若者と共有できることがある。私は若い頃ときどき短気を起こした。忍耐力の欠如が時に不必要な問題を起こしたのだ。私自身の経験では、忍耐力を持つことは非常に重要だ。他方、決断力や自信も大切だ。そして何か考えが思い浮かんでも行動を急いではいけない。考えて考え抜くことが大切だ。 若者は未来の主要な担い手だ。だからより良い世界、より良い社会に向けての若者の決断や貢献はとても重要だ。そのために、自信、慈悲心、お互いの思いやり、それに責任感を持つこと。これらは正しい決断力や意志の発達の基礎となる根本的な要素だ。
Q : What is your message to the young people of Japan, in general?
DL : As I mentioned before, as a Buddhist monk, you are your own master. So you yourself should find the proper way, or proper path. One thing I can share with Japanese youth, that is according to my own past experience, when I myself was young, sometimes, was the lack of patience. Sometimes, due to the lack of patience, unnecessary problems may be faced. So, according to my own past experience, it is very important to have more patience. And meantime, determination, and self-confidence. Also I think, when one idea comes in your mind, then it should not be finalized hurriedly -- you should think more, more. That I think is important. Of course, for youth, time always is moving, nobody can stop that. So the coming generation, the youth, are the major factor for the future, so youth's determination or contribution for betterment of the world, betterment of the society, is very essential. For that, clear awareness and firm determination with self-confidence, determination or willpower, and self-confidence, compassion, a sense of caring for one another, the sense of responsibility, these are fundamental elements, the basis for development of the proper determination or will. Sometimes hatred also, you see, can act as a basis of determination, but this source of determination is very destructive, very dangerous. So you need determination, self-confidence on the basis of a sense of compassion, and self-confidence, sense of caring, then your determination will be positive and constructive.
－教育者へのメッセージを。
私は常に教育者の仕事を高く評価している。先に述べたように、宗教的信仰としての仏教や仏教文化は仏教徒のものであるが、現実にこの社会では大多数の人々は仏教徒ではない。それゆえ、仏教の宗教機関としての社会への影響は限定されている。現在、ほとんどすべての人は教育を受けており、それら教育機関の教育者は学生を正しく導く上でもっとも大切な立場にいる。教育機関において、教育者は個人（学生）の発達に最大の関心をおくべきであると思う。そうでなければ良い心の発達、すなわち道徳がおろそかにされ、頭脳の発達だけに力点がおかれる。実際に優秀な頭脳が時として他人を苦しめ、また自らをも害する場合もある。仏教の教えとは、他人および自己に対する正しい態度を養うことであり、それは主として深い人間的価値に基づくものだ。私は教育者や教育の現場で働くすべての人々に『個々の人間の正しい発達に心を傾けてほしい』と申し上げたい。とても重要なことだ。教育は道具のようなものだ。道具の使い手の動機が正しくなければ、その道具は間違って、あるいは破壊的に使われることがある。それゆえ、頭脳の発達と正しい心の育成を両立しなければならない。
Q : Do you have a message for the teachers, the educators of today's students?
DL : Well, I have always appreciated the work of educators. Now, as I mentioned before, regarding Buddhism, and Buddhist culture, Buddhism as a religious faith, that's for Buddhist believers. However in this society, in reality, the majority of the people are non-believers. So you see the religious institutions, their influence to society is limited, and really doesn't cover all members of society. Now all generations, all people, go through education, so those institutions which give the education now I feel can be the most important place to guide the students properly. In educational institutions, I feel they should pay equal or more attention to the development of the person himself or herself, the basic self. That I think is very important. Otherwise you see a lot of attention paid to brain development, and less attention paid to the development of good heart, to the moral issues. So in fact the brilliant student may have no moral sense, and that brilliant brain sometimes creates a lot of pain for others, and ultimately, ruins itself also. As I mentioned earlier, regarding Buddhist culture, that means the right kind of attitude towards others, towards oneself, mainly based on deeper human values... Here I want to say to the educators, or the people who are working in the education field: "Please pay more attention to the proper development of the person, himself or herself" -- that I think is very important. Education is something like an instrument; the user of the instrument is the person, so if the person's mental attitude is not properly developed, then that instrument is sometimes used wrongly, or destructively. So the development of brain, and development of good heart, must go together.
●環境問題と京都精華大学への期待 Saving the Environment: a Message for Kyoto Seika University
－チベットは、環境を保護する法律を制定した最初の国であると聞いている。あなたは環境問題にも多くの提言をされている。京都精華大学が設置を計画している環境社会学科にも助言がいただければ。
とてもすばらしい。環境問題は私にとっても実は新しい問題だ。かつてチベットでは仏教の慈悲の考えから、野生動物を厳格に保護してきた。それは無意識的な環境にとっての貢献だった。チベットは日本よりもはるかに広大な国土をもち、それでいて人口は少なく、人々の生活様式はとても質素で、生活のための資源は充分だった。またチベットは他国から隔絶していたので、採掘や森林の伐採からも自由だった。空気も清浄で、水も汚染されておらず、どこでも心配せずに飲むことができた。 我々はインドに来て以来、環境の専門家に会う機会が多くあり、問題の重要性に気がついた。汚染の問題は暴力や流血とは性質が異なる。暴力は即座に我々の心を打ち砕く。しかし、環境や生態系へのダメージはあまり気づかれずに、徐々に進行する。破壊が目に付くようになったら、その時はおそらくもう手遅れだ。たとえばオゾン層の破壊などのために、気候全体が変化することもある。大災害だ。一部の地域ではすでにこのことが現実の問題だ。それゆえ環境保全を心掛けることは極めて重要だ。 個々人がこの問題を明確に認識し、自然に対する思いやりを持つ。そのことで自然を大切にすることが毎日の生活の一部となる。それがあるべき姿だ。その点で、環境に関しての教育を行うことは、本当に必要不可欠だ。多くの場合私たちは遠い先に起きる事柄については解らない。これは例えば経済といった要因と深く関係している。インドや他の発展途上の国々では、その経済状況のために森林伐採を行い、環境にとても有害な結果を生んでいる。しかし、そこに住む人々にとっては、他に生活の糧を得る手段がない。人々は生き残らなければならない。これが現在ヒマラヤの山々で起きている環境破壊の原因だ。人口は増え、同時に生活の糧を得る方法は乏しい。生活は困難を極めている。人口政策、家族計画もとても重要になってくる。経済成長は永遠には続かない。人口が増え、死亡者が少なくなることは歓迎すべきとてもよいことだ。しかし最終的にはそれが必ず収拾のつかない大問題を引き起こす。
Q : I have read that Tibet was one of the first countries to make laws protecting the environment, in the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama. You yourself have written extensively on humanity and ecology. Do you have any special advice for Kyoto Seika University, as we prepare to establish a new department of Environmental Studies?
DL : Very good! Environmental issues, of course, are for me also new. In previous times in Tibet, of course mainly due to the Buddhist concept of compassion, we protected animals, wild animals, very strictly, which made a big contribution for environment. But about the environment itself, you see, we had no idea. I think firstly, because Tibet is a big land, bigger than Japan, a vast area, and had a small population. Then life, and of course life-style, was very simple, so the resources were sufficient. And on the other hand, it was isolated, so therefore mining or deforestation, these never happened, in the past -- or at least were very limited. And then because of the clean air it was a clean area, so almost I think no polluted water. Everywhere the water was clean, pure, you could drink it without any fear. Now, after we came to India, and had more contact with environmental specialists, then we realized how important this is. Now my personal feeling is that the problem of pollution, is unlike bloodshed or violence. Violence of course immediately strikes our mind, but the damage in the environment, ecology, is without much notice, it happens gradually. Once it really becomes obvious, and (for example) you feel some discomfort in your eyes, and children suffer due to dirty air, then maybe it's too late, because of the environment, the depletion of the ozone layer... If the whole climate pattern would change, this would be a disaster! And even now some areas are already experiencing this. So taking care of the environment right from the beginning, is very important. And then the way of caring for nature this is ... each individual, each individual family, should have clear awareness, and then taking care about nature should be part of our daily life. I think that's the proper way. So therefore, education about environment from the early childhood, now seems really essential, very important. In many cases we don't know the long-term consequences -- and also now of course all this is very much related with other factors such as the economy. But now in India and these other undeveloped or developing nations, because of their economic situation, they are using timber or certain things which are very harmful for the environment, but because for local people there is no other way to earn, and they have to live. In the ancient times, with limited population, OK, but the population has increased, and with no other way to earn, they have to survive.... This is the reason for a lot of damage to the environment that is now happening in the whole of the Himalayan Range. The population is increasing, but in the meantime, because of the scarcity of their way of earning, living is sometimes difficult. So population, family planning is very essential, to ensure the rate of growth doesn't grow continuously. Big population increase, lower number of deaths -- most welcome, very good, but in the long run it certainly creates uncontrollable problems, there's no doubt. So family planning is also very important.
－ 京都精華大学の30周年へのメッセージを
あなた方の理念と計画を伺い、環境問題への取り組みなど人間性の向上に対する重要な貢献への熱意を感じうれしく思う。それは素晴らしいことだ。これらすべては建設的な仕事の第一歩だ。壮大なことをする必要はない。それは時として大きすぎ、失敗の前触れとなる。おそらく、最初は小さな規模から始め、他へ良い模範を示し、そうすることでより多くの人々が引き付けられ、集まってくるだろう。そこに協力が生まれるのだ。あなた方の活動の成功を祈願する。良い動機、良い協力を与えること、それが大切なのだ。ありがとう。
Q : Could Your Holiness give us some message for Kyoto Seika University's 30th anniversary?
DL : I am very happy to hear about your thinking and your programs, your eagerness to make a greater contribution for your immediate environment, and also through that a considerable contribution for the betterment of humanity. That's wonderful! All these, I think show positive work at the beginning. It's not necessary to do something grand -- sometimes grand is too big, sometimes it's a sign of failure. Perhaps I think it's better to start from the small scale, and make a good example to others, then more people, more intitutions, you see, will be attracted towards that, then cooperation certainly will come. So I wish and also pray for the success of your activities. Providing good intentions, good cooperation -- that's what's important... Thank you, thank you very much!
－本当にありがとう。
Q: Thank you, Your Holiness...
