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(Spoilers Extended) Similarities between Westeros/Ancient Greece and Essos/Ancient Persia
I came to a realization yesterday that, while Westeros is often compared frequently to Britain, it has similarities to the ancient world as well - particularly with Westeros in the role of Ancient Greece and Essos in the role of Asia/Persia. I came to this realization while I was listening to the Hardcore History Podcast by Dan Carlin - specifically the three parter about the Persian Empire called King of Kings.
Hear me out:
Westeros-Ancient Greece: "Civilized", divided into different kingdoms/city-states, including major rivalries between many of them. To the west is Essos/Asia/Asia Minor, and the Westerosi/Greeks view everyone to the north and east as barbarians. Neither really knows whats to the far north or west.
Essos/Asia: Important free cities/Greek cities states on the west coast, just across the Narrow/Aegean Sea. The continent is dominated by barbarian, horse-lords (often the way Greeks viewed others - the Persians are obviously more complex than that). The map becomes essentially completely unknown the further east you go (at least for the Westerosi/Greeks).
Phillip of Macedon/Aegon the Conquerer: A weak comparison, but a military leader coming in from a formerly peripheral territory (Dragonstone/Macedonia) and uniting the region under one leader.
It's obviously not as fleshed out as the Westeros-Britain comparisons, but I found it pretty interesting and thought I'd share with you all.
TL;DR: Lot's of similarities between Ancient Greece and Westeros, as well as between the Ancient Near East and Essos. Not wholly fleshed out, but interesting nonetheless.
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I think you might be suffering from ethnic biases here. I would actually flip the comparison. Westeros is a large empire more analogous to Persia. There was never really a Greek empire. Alexander would be a better comparison to Aegon if considering the Westeros=Greece side, but Alexander didn't care much for ruling, only conquering, and because of this his lands split up into several different nations upon his death.
Persia, however was a large empire comprised of several kingdoms. The emperor was often called the "King of Kings," which calls to mind the phrase "Ruler of the Seven Kingdoms." The "Persian Empire" isn't exactly an accurate term, as there were different iterations of a Persian Empire with different ruling dynasties. That being said, it was an empire that lasted for several centuries, denoting stability similar to that fostered by Aegon the Conquerer. The Achaemenid Empire seems to fit rather nicely with the history of Aegon's conquest. The Achaemenids would delegate ruling to local rulers so long as taxes were paid and (I believe) troops answered their call. The Achaemenids also instituted a common language for this large span of land and were accepting of varied cultures and religions under their rule. Side note: I don't see how Persia could be considered a land of barbarians analogous to the Dothraki, as you seem to posit in your post.
Essos seems to be more similar to the Greek system of city-states with realms of influence surrounding them. This really only applies to the western coast of Essos, but Essos is such a large land mass with a huge variety of cultures that you can't try to find a single historical analogue for the whole of it.
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Very good points! I definitely wasn't writing this attempting to be 100% fair to both sides, but let me address a couple of your points.
You're right! Persia probably fits better, for the reasons you described. I would agree largely on this. I might have pigeon holed the comparison I did due to the geography (Greece in the west, Asia huge and in the east, like Essos)
I was thinking about it, intentionally, from the Greek bias/Western side - as that, unfortunately, is often the common narrative and is (likely - I don't know) the POV GRRM is coming from. I am aware that the narrative presented by Herodotus, or say "300", isn't reality. But is interesting from a narrative/story-telling perspective (like, say, ASOIAF)
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4 years agoWell since western and eastern cultures are so heavily influenced by them it would be impossible not to have these connections. He couldn't have westeros be based on Britain without connections to Ancient Greece.
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It's the answer to our whiny prayers! #TheMartinCut is coming!
In-between performing deadlifts, famed auteur director Zack Snyder has agreed to re-shoot Game of Thrones, Season 8 as a two-hundred hour limited series on HBO MAX.
In a press release, Zack Snyder spokesman, Jeff, said the following
"Zack is eager to sink his teeth into this project, and he believes that he can bring George RR Martin's true vision onto the small screen."
A source who wishes to stay anonymous told me that early storyboards have Daenerys dual-wielding Drogon and Viserion as ancient lamentation music plays. Reached by phone in his bed of million dollar bills, I asked Zack about what changes he might make to Season Eight:
"To be true to George's vision, we're going to have to darken the screen more during The Long Night. This isn't a kiddie show about dragons, you fucks. You have to be period-accurate to fucking capture that it's a long fucking night. Fuck."
Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington are set to reprise their roles as the dragon lady and the sad boy. But in a surprise move, Zack Snyder has asked that Michelle Fairley return. In what role? Snyder isn't telling, but he cryptically smiles at me over Zoom before saying:
"Lady Fucking Stoneheart who was once Catelyn Stark who rises from the fucking dead."
What does this mean? Time will tell, but pre-production is well-underway with an expected release date of early 2020! Stay tuned for more exclusive updates!
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The HBO series Game of Thrones began development on January 16, 2007, and it aired its final episode on [May 19, 2019](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Throne_(Game_of_Thrones)). From the start of development to the airing of the final episode, it was a span of 4507 days.
George R. R. Martin's novel A Dance with Dragons was released on July 12, 2011. 4507 days after that is November 13, 2023.
If George does not release TWOW by that date, it would be possible to make the entire show and air it to completion in between books. This is absolutely a possibility.
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This is something I think most ppl understand but it always frustrates me when this quote gets misinterpreted. The full quote is this:
“The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.”
So looking at who can actually hold and swing a sword, that’s pretty limited. You have to be an able bodied man with enough strength to swing a sword and take off a head. And we even see this go wrong in canon with Theon completely screwing up an execution. And the reason theon’s execution feels wrong and unjust even though he followed the concept of swinging the sword technically, is because he didn’t actually conform to the spirit of the concept and didn’t actually fulfill the meaning of this idea.
There’s a reason this quote doesn’t stop with just the man swinging the sword. It continues, saying that when you kill someone, you have to look them in the eye and hear their words. This allows the person killing to understand the weight of the death.
So, characters like Bran, Sansa, and Arya can all still fulfill the Stark ideal of taking death seriously and understanding how hard the decision to kill someone is even if they can’t actually behead someone. Hell, in the books, Robb executes some ppl by hanging and that’s because of practicalities. As long as the person sentencing ppl to death is still acknowledging their decision, confronting death head on, and being death’s witness, the physical act matters so much less.
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Could sir Barristan had really been have to defeat the five kingsguard guarding joffrey like he said when he was dismissed from the kingsguard?
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Even the early seasons, which I think are some of the greatest seasons of television put to air, are partially guilty of this, but it becomes more evident later on as D&D had no source material to reel them in, so they go to Hollywood tropes.
Renly is basically this physically meh, flamboyant fob which is a little too on the nose supposed to indicate his gayness, whereas in the books he's the spitting image of Robert, a little less strong/masculine, but still a decently strong fighter (going far enough in jousting tourneys). He still has an appreciation for fine clothing, but it almost seems like they made him into a modern depiction of a gay stereotype in some ways. And leading from this...
Loras was done even worse, he goes from a reckless and cocky, yet honorable knight who certainly has some skills to a laughable character. He is extremely promiscuous, compared to book Loras who says "when the sun has set, no candle can ever replace it."
Arya goes from being a tomboy who has an inferiority complex about more traditionally feminine girls and wants to be pretty like her sister is turned into a girl who hates other girls and wants to straight-up be a boy and is a terminator killer.
Sansa goes from "courtesy is a lady's armor" to a cold-hearted, Cersei-type character. This one is more a reflection on the showrunners decision to have her raped by Ramsay and they say it made her stronger than bad writing, per se. Like I think Sansa might realistically become emotionally muted because of being held captive and raped by an evil monster like Ramsay, but I think it was still stupid
Brienne goes from being one of the most compassionate characters in the series with a mother-like relationship to Pod to being a brutal warrior who seems to take some amount of pleasure in her kills and derides someone for "being like a woman."
Stannis turns into a caricature of "emotionless justice." No moment where he says if he dies you must avenge me and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. No "there will be no burnings. Pray harder".
Tyrion goes from having all this hate and spite and venom to this affable guy and one of the most morally good characters in season 8, essentially. They completely gut his character when they don't have Jaime reveal that Tysha wasn't a whore
Jaime is probably the worst fucked character by D&D with his misadventures in Dorne and "I never cared about the innocents" line. No putting the letter in the fire.
I'll end on one final note, which is Littlefinger, which as GRRM notes was changed from season 1 to be a somewhat trusted man to an "everyone hates this guy". Now, I don't think this change was objectively bad, but I think it speaks to some of D&D latent Hollywood tendencies that would be introduced post-season 4 (and even in s4e10 with not being brave enough to break up Tyrion and Jaime and make Tyrion a villainous guy). The reason I say this is because the purpose behind making Littlefinger so obviously hated was to make him an easier villain for the audience to hate, compared to making him a liked guy.
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Martin has done a lot of interviews and the bulk of what he says goes right down the memory hole within a week, but a few of his statements circulate among random and one of them is this one:
"Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?"
I've seen a lot of people interpreting this quote as Martin complaining about Tolkien's lack of world building specifics in order to nail down things like tax policies. I don't think that's what Martin means at all. After all, except for a bit about Jaehaerys in F&B it's not as if Martin gives us much do go on in terms of the tax policies of Westerosi kings, even in cases where that information would have been useful (for example, how is it that the Vale and Dorne are able to stay neutral in the War of the Five Kings, where are taxes collected in those areas being sent? Are the Arryns and the Martells forwarding money to King's Landing or keeping it for themselves? Or do those areas really owe no taxes whatsoever to the Iron Throne?).
Martin isn't interested at all in the nuts and bolts of Medieval government, but instead with people. He's interested in "the human heart in conflict with itself." Good guy is good king and does good stuff doesn't provide for much conflict so that isn't interesting for Martin.
What Martin IS interested in is things like the conflict between personal morality and public duty ("love is the death of duty" etc. etc.). The conflict between being a good king and a good man seems to be the focus of where Martin was planning to go with Egg's later life where trying to be a good father, improve the lives of the smallfolk, and keep the nobility on side became such a tangled mess that we ended up with Summerhall.
We also see with characters like Tywin Lannister that morally repugnant people can be effective politically (in at least some ways, or at least for a time) and that being morally upstanding doesn't mean that you have the practical skills to set up effective governance.
Martin also tells us that isn't not easy to see what is good. If the orcs are evil then is it good to exterminate them? "Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?" Separating out good and evil aren't simple and those that think that is simple are often monstrous themselves in ASoIaF.
None of this is really about taxes or worldbuilding. It's about characters, duty, moral greyness, and all of Martin's other favorite things.
On a personal note I'm not sure I agree with Martin here since the historical account can give us a warped view of the morality of kings. "Great" kings often get painted in a positive light even if the only thing they were great at was killing large numbers of people while incompetent kings often get portrayed as being nice guys when they were mostly just too bad at their jobs to kill or save anyone. A lot of the more moral kings in history just had boring reigns in which not much happened so they get skipped over since the "interesting times" that fill up the history books tend to be times of horror and mostly forgotten. Doesn't mean that they didn't do good things, at least compared to their more famous and bloody peers.
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The first book amazed me, however, I think season 1 of the show does a 10/10 job at adapting the first book despite thinking that the book is still better. So for ACoK I was a little more excited because season 2 was never one of my favorites, I always thought that season 1 set up so many things that season 2 didn't live up to, so I was excited to see if the book was any different, and what I found was a very nice surprise...
A Clash of Kings is amazing, and it starts amazing right away, the prologue is one of the best chapters in the saga in my opinion, it establishes Stannis' character in a way that I had never seen before, turning stannis in one of the best characters in the book and in an already superior version of the show.
The storylines are pretty great too, some are way better in the books vs the show, some examples are:
Arya's storyline is more detailed and allows you to see the effects of the War in a more vivid way, and her time in Harrenhal is way more interesting (however, I did miss her conversations with Tywin, this one of the things the show did better.)
Dany's house of the undying is one of my favorite things in this book while I completely hated it on the show
Jon storyline is way more interesting, Qhorin is an amazing character in the books, while in the show he's meh. Also, the fact that Jon freed Ygritte I think that makes his character better than his show counterpart.
-Bran's and winterfell storyline is much more fleshed out, the whole thing with Ramsay, Reek, Rodrik and lady Hornwood is very interesting, I would have loved to see this on the show.
Theon!! I loved book Theon, he's a total incompetent asshole in the show (still a great character tho) but in the books, he's on a whole another level, seriously, his storyline is great.
Tyrion's storyline is pretty similar, by far the best, but I feel like book Tyrion is more interesting and his last chapter is GOLDEN
I hated Catelyn and her choices in the show, I like her in the books and her choices make more sense within the context of the character, also, her chapters are freaking heartbreaking. ( I miss Robb tho, point for the show)
Lastly, the entire war is so much better on the books, like on the show, battles happen I guess? The country is at war I guess? But I feel like we as spectators never really perceive any of that, but in the books however, you do get to find out about every little detail, It is so much more interesting and fleshed out.
Some examples are: The Siege of Storm's End, Robb's battles in the west, Renly's character, the Iron Ironborn invasion and battles on the North, etc...
For all of these reasons is that I think Clash of Kings is an amazing book, and a superior version of its TV counterpart. I can't wait to read a Storm of Swords.
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This is actually a couple of months late, but probably close enough. George R.R. Martin recently passed the milestone of being a published author for fifty (50) years.
Martin's first professionally-published story was "The Hero," a story from his Thousand Worlds space opera setting. It was published in the February 1971 issue of Galaxy Magazine, though he'd written it in 1968-69 when he'd made his first serious push to become a published author. This period also resulted in "The Added Safety Factor" (eventually published in 1979 as "Warship"), "The Fortress" (eventually published in 1985 as "Under Siege," no relation to the Steven Segal movie), "And Death His Legacy" and "Protector." Martin's earlier writing had been for juvenile fanzines and fan comics (albeit involving some very familiar names, like the brave warrior Barristan the Bold fighting against the evil forces of the Dothrak Empire). In fact, his very first-published material of any kind was a letter to Stan Lee and Jack Kirby printed in Fantastic Four #20 (August 1963).
"The Hero," though, was the first of Martin's stories to see print and kick-started a run of early, promising fiction that eventually culminated in his Hugo Award-winner "A Song for Lya" (1974). Additional, multi-award winning fiction followed, including the Hugo and Nebula Award-winning "Sandkings" (1979) (soon to be a Netflix film from Gore Verbinski) and Hugo Award-winning "The Way of Cross and Dragon" (1979), along with his novels Dying of the Light (1977), Windhaven (1981, with Lisa Tuttle), Fevre Dream (1982) and The Armageddon Rag (1983), the commercial failure of which triggered a sideways career movie into film and television scripts. Martin spent years working in Hollywood on TV shows including The Twilight Zone and Beauty and the Beast, whilst rebuilding his novel career through Tuf Voyaging (1987) and working as the creator-editor of the popular Wild Cards series of superhero anthologies (starting in 1987 and continuing to this day).
This year also marks the 30th anniversary of Martin starting work on his wildly popular Song of Ice and Fire book series. Although A Game of Thrones wasn't published until five years later, Martin began work on the novel in the summer of 1991 when he was struck forcibly by the image of a young boy being taken by his father to see a deserter being executed in the snow. At the time he had no idea whether this was the idea for a short story or a novel, and certainly no idea it would be the start of a magnum opus that would still be running three decades and just shy of 100 million book sales later.
So happy anniversary to George for a full half-century in the business.
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Hey! I’m sure this has been picked up before but I hadnt seen any recent or noticeable post about it, and I thought it was cool.
In STORM, when Jon first meets Mance, he is singing a song, The Dornishmans Wife. I just found it lovely that this song was given its full lyrics in a Jon chapter, and he specifically mentions
Jon knew the song, though it was strange to hear it here, in a shaggy hide tent beyond the Wall, ten thousand leagues from the red mountains and warm winds of Dorne.
and I think this is important because that’s where Jon was (most likely) born. A lot of people say the RLJ foreshadowing drops off after AGOT for the most part but this really stood out to me.
This is pretty obvious on re-read so nothing profound, I just wanted to share this and see what others think!
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Perusing through Dany IV ACOK I noticed a line I think might be often skipped over, since there is just so much going on in this chapter:
A white lion ran through grass taller than a man.
A white lion? A Lannister in a kingsguard cloak? Hello Jaime, nice to see you.
As for tall grass, recall Jorah’s story of ghost grass in Dany III AGOT:
Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end."
I think we can gather that this story is an allusion to the Others, as the story matches the progression of a global Long Night. And the word pale is key too. From the prologue of AGOT:
A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk.
Jaime running through white walkers? A badass visual at the very least, although in the context of the other visions around it, it might not be intentional. But still, it’s fun to parse the connections.
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Targaryens leading the Golden Company?
The Golden Company, a mercenary company founded by Aegor Rivers to preserve the strength of the exiled Blackfyre supporters following Daemon Blackfyre’s defeat by the Targaryens. Famed for never breaking a contract, has broken a contract, and for a Targaryen at that. Aegon Targaryen, the son of Rhaegar, has come out of hiding and seeks to seize the Iron Throne.
Many fans point to the Golden Company’s support for Aegon Targaryen, a scion of an old family enemy, as one of the quintessential points in favor of the fAegon/Blackfyre theory. However, the GC’s support of irrefutable Targs like Viserys and Daenerys contradicts that somewhat.
To reconcile this with the Blackfyre theory, some form more convoluted plots of betrayal and suggest that the GC isn’t truly devoted to Viserys’ cause, citing Dany’s recollection of the GC laughing at Viserys’ initial request for their support.
Her brother Viserys had once feasted the captains of the Golden Company, in hopes they might take up his cause. They ate his food and heard his pleas and laughed at him. – ADWD, chp. 16 Daenerys III
This may well be a show to cover for the Golden Company's support for Viserys. Considering that the moment Dany became politically relevant by marrying Khal Drogo, Robert Baratheon sent an assassin after her, it wouldn’t be the worst idea. The same would have been done for Viserys here if the GC joined him.
But the more likely reason is that this is a rejection that comes at the height of Robert Baratheon’s power. Balon Greyjoy had recently rebelled and been put down and no houses in Westeros proper joined him. It would have been suicidal for the GC to join Viserys on this venture. The North, Vale, Riverlands, Westerlands, and Stormlands were all firmly behind Robert. The Tyrells may well have already given up Loras to squire for Renly, and Dorne was not like to rise for Viserys if he was only bringing the GC along with him.
The Golden Company’s decision then was not indicative of the GC’s willingness to never support Targaryens. In fact, we later see that the Golden Company’s position changed.
"The plan—"
"Which plan?" said Tristan Rivers. "The fat man's plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns? First Viserys Targaryen was to join us with fifty thousand Dothraki screamers at his back. Then the Beggar King was dead, and it was to be the sister… - ADWD, chp. 24 The Lost Lord
Not only was a captain of the company willing to support Targaryens, but they were so dedicated to the idea that they grew upset that the plan had changed from supporting Viserys, an unquestionable Targ. Jon Connington and Septa Lemore, the two most closely involved with the Aegon plot, outside Varys and Illyrio, also reveal themselves as in on the plot to support Viserys and Dany.
"Illyrio could not have been expected to know that the girl would choose to remain at Slaver's Bay."
"No more than he knew that the Beggar King would die young, or that Khal Drogo would follow him into the grave. Very little of what the fat man has anticipated has come to pass." Griff slapped the hilt of his longsword with a gloved hand. "I have danced to the fat man's pipes for years, Lemore. What has it availed us? – ADWD, chp. 24 The Lost Lord
So, the plan as the GC knew it was to pledge their support to Viserys Targaryen, the crowned king of the Targaryen cause, and attack Westeros during a time of turmoil and see Viserys’ allies join them.
Consider that even in the best view of the Blackfyre theory, they have to keep Aegon’s identity from leaking out. So, even if Aegon is a fake, the vast majority of the GC (a rather democratic organization with the Blackfyres gone) believe they’re supporting an actual Targaryen. After all,
Ten thousand armed strangers, plus hangers-on and camp followers. All it takes is one to bring us all to ruin. – ADWD, chp. 24 The Lost Lord
Only one man was necessary to expose the secret. So, how does one reconcile this apparently abrupt change in the attitudes of the GC? The GC, an organization explicitly founded for the purpose of preserving Blackfyre strength and placing them on the Iron Throne in place of their Targaryen kin. Aegor would weep bitter tears to see his dream of the Golden Company taking Westeros fulfilled, but through supporting a Targaryen. Ooh, a bittersweet ending!
The weakness of Westeros and waning confidence in the Blackfyres
This change isn’t founded on nothing. With King Robert dead, and near all his former loyalists fighting amongst themselves, Westeros has never been riper for a Targaryen restoration. Illyrio and Viserys had wed Dany to the Dothraki and supposedly gained a sizeable force of cavalry, and loyalists in Dorne and possibly friends from the Reach were expected to rise for the Targaryen’s now very realistic cause. Rather than the GC taking on near all of Westeros alone, they’d instead have a huge host of allies and could take on weakened Westerosi factions piecemeal.
And in terms of the old Targ-Blackfyre feud, questionable support for the Blackfyre cause is something they’ve had to deal with since Daemon Blackfyre. A significant portion of the original Blackfyre supporters were made up of opportunists, second houses, ambitious lords, men seeking position and power, and those who were on the fence and wanted a foot in both camps. Lothston and Torwyn Greyjoy for instance, were prominent betrayals from within their ranks that might have turned the tide. And shifting alliances have always been a thing in all Asoiaf, the members of the GC are not unique.
But most importantly, the Blackfyres saw less and less support with each consecutive loss, as more and more people gave up the cause. No doubt these losses would affect the dedication within the Golden Company as well. Daemon’s descendants never rose to the standard set by their progenitor, none held that same charisma and air of opportunity that swayed so many. And while the sword Blackfyre was a symbol of kingship, that aspect wanes with every succeeding year it isn’t held by the ruler of Westeros.
It has been near half a century since the Golden Company put forward a contender for the Iron Throne. The bright-eyed soldiers of that era are now grizzled old men, like Tywin Lannister and Barristan Selmy, in their late fifties and up. And mercenary work is not a good profession to grow old in, Brown Ben Plumm says as much to Daenerys.
There are old sellswords and bold sellswords, but no old bold sellswords. – ADWD, chp. 30 Daenerys V
This is even a lesson that Brown Ben Plumm repeats to Daenerys a few chapters later when he’s explaining why his men gave up her cause, adding the following:
"We went over to the winning side, is all. Same as we done before. It weren't all me, neither. I put it to my men." – ADWD, chp. 50 Daenerys VIII
Although the Golden Company is exceptionally loyal compared to other sellsword companies, the principle no doubt holds true. Those who were most fiercely dedicated to the Blackfyre cause will have died off. Those that remain, and the Golden Company has been around a long time, will be exceedingly cautious and more willing to give up a lost cause like that of the Blackfyres. And I believe we see this manifested somewhat in the rise of the overly cautious Harry Strickland, and the fact that the Golden Company tends to take contracts they know are a safe bet.
Even those few remaining survivors that stayed in the company and who are old enough to remember a Blackfyre will remember Maelys the Monstrous. A grotesquely deformed kinslaying monster that needed to kill his cousin for leadership and never even made it to Westeros. He was not an inspiring figure to look back on fondly, he gained no support in Westeros and there’s plenty of reason to think many in the GC didn’t like him considering the leadership dispute.
To put it simply, the Blackfyres left a lasting image, and it wasn’t pretty.
The Golden Company cares for more than the wishes of the dead
We should also take into account the fact that the GC has taken on recruits from Essos and Westeros who have no stake in the old Blackfyre feud. Consider that they even took on Targaryen loyalists like Jon Con, who was favored for leadership. These exiles, though disunited in terms of the Blackfyre feud, may be united in another goal.
It's home they want, as much as gold. Lord Yronwood knows that as well as I do. – AFFC, chp. 13 The Soiled Knight
It’s even noted that many in charge of the Golden Company aren’t the like of Bittersteel’s day.
Connington gave the plump captain-general a cool look. This man is no Blackheart, no Bittersteel, no Maelys. He would wait until all seven hells were frozen if he could rather than risk another bout of blisters. – ADWD, chp. 61 The Griffin Reborn
Harry Strickland boasts 4 generations of family in the Golden Company. Although (or perhaps because) his great grandsire was exiled following the original Blackfyre, he shows immense caution and looks little like a warrior as Jon Con notes upon introduction. And despite his family’s old Blackfyre leanings, Harry is one of the greatest voices in support of joining Daenerys. Although tbf, her dragons make for a strong case to ignore the old blood feud as well and he points out that she grants legitimacy to Aegon’s name.
There are other leaders in the company however. Essosi like Lysono Maar and Gorys Edoryen, with little to no stake in the old feud, have taken up the important positions of spymaster and paymaster. A Summer Islander like Black Balaq rose to become a captain and commands the GC’s archers.
And Westerosi like Rolly Duckfield or Franklyn Flowers are utterly disconnected from the Targ-Blackfyre feud, yet rise to important positions. Franklyn becomes captain, is knighted, and he’s even a close friend to Jon Con which inclines him to the Targ cause. Rolly was granted not only the prominent position of Strickland’s squire, but then was sent to train Aegon under Jon Con’s care. This is a case of Rolly’s talent winning out, but it also indicates that either the old blood feud doesn’t matter to Harry and he sends a good man to a Targ, or he doesn’t care enough to send Blackfyre loyalists to protect and train the future Blackfyre claimant.
Even longtime Blackfyre supporters like the Peakes (several in the GC even now) have been known to bend their knees to the Targaryens when the cause is lost.
The magister waggled his fat fingers. "Some contracts are writ in ink, and some in blood. I say no more." – ADWD, chp. 5 Tyrion II
While some take the above quote to mean the GC will follow their great-great grandfather’s feud with the Targaryens. Tyrion himself immediately touches on the greater cause of the Golden Company.
From that day to this, the men of the Golden Company had lived and died in the Disputed Lands, fighting for Myr or Lys or Tyrosh in their pointless little wars, and dreaming of the land their fathers had lost. – ADWD, chp. 5 Tyrion II
The Golden Company was founded by exiles wishing to return home, to make a better life for their families. They merely need an avenue to see their goals achieved, the Targaryens are that path forward. Jon Connington, beyond his loyalty to Rhaegar and Rhaegar’s son, encapsulates many of the motives driving the exiles of the GC. Jon Connington wants,
To reclaim his lands, his name, his honor. To still the bells that rang so loudly in his dreams whenever he closed his eyes to sleep. – ADWD, chp. 24 The Lost Lord
It’s clear that the old commitment to the Blackfyre cause is non-existent in many new and prominent members of the company, and commitment has evidently grown extremely diluted in the members from old families. Restoration of hearth and home, to take up their old names and restore respect to them, to restore a sense of honor, and bury the shame of past defeats and current occupations are all strong reasons to put their old ghosts to rest. They have all grown tired of waiting, desperate even. And so, agree to Aegon’s change of plan to sail for Westeros and have Dany follow them.
Peake said, "I would sooner die in Westeros than on the demon road,"
and Marq Mandrake chuckled and responded, "Me, I'd sooner live, win lands and some great castle,"
and Franklyn Flowers slapped his sword hilt and said, "So long as I can kill some Fossoways, I'm for it." – ADWD, chp. 24 The Lost Lord
Backing Aegon, and Viserys before him, fulfills all these desires. Grievances more personal than the old Blackfyre feud will be sated, ancestral lands will be restored, the wealth of Westeros will be theirs, titles and positions of honor and power beyond that of the dishonorable profession of sellsword will be granted out. Or, failing that, they can die in their homeland.
"Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon. When Maelys the Monstrous died upon the Stepstones, it was the end of the male line of House Blackfyre." The cheesemonger smiled through his forked beard. "And Daenerys will give the exiles what Bittersteel and the Blackfyres never could. She will take them home." - ADWD, chp. 5 Tyrion II
With the male line of the Blackfyre’s dead, many in the GC may well have seen their family’s allegiance default back to the Targaryens. And as Illyrio said, the old feud no longer matters to the GC. It is dead and gone, they’re all exiles now. And Aegon Targaryen is the best chance they have at taking Westeros since Daemon Blackfyre himself.
TLDR: The Golden Company supports Targs now. And they do so because:
Westeros is weak, and the Targaryens have a good chance at retaking the throne
Blackfyre supporters tend not to be particularly reliable in regards to their cause
The Blackfyres spent their entire history getting stomped by mainline Targs, and their support weakens each time they lose
The last Blackfyre claimant was half a century ago, and Maelys the Monstrous left a terrible taste in their mouths
Plenty of new recruits in the GC have no stake in the old feud, or even have reason to be pro-Targaryen
The sellswords most dedicated to the Blackfyre cause will tend to die off, while more cautious sellswords willing to give up the old feud will rise to prominence
Far more than their great-great-grandfather's bloodfeud, the current members of the GC want a return to home, grants of land, riches and positions of power and honor beyond the dishonorable practice of sellswording
Viserys, Dany, and Aegon Targaryen are seen as the greatest avenue to achieving the Golden Company's goals
Of course, this post isn’t a total denunciation of the Blackfyre theory, but I intend it to gather my thoughts on one of my favorite topics - Aegon and the Golden Company. As well as help clear up a pretty common misconception in the fandom. That misconception being, of course, the idea that the Golden Company would never support Targaryens.
This is my first long analysis post, that wasn't a comment at least. I hope you all enjoyed reading. If you have anything to add, feel free to comment.
439
From an Inn's kitchen to the famous pies of Merman's Court. Amateur cooks duel it out as Hot Pie and Wyman Manderly turn up the heat.
Contestants from across the Known World will battle it out to perfect five iconic Westerosi dishes in this limited series.
Lemon cakes - A favorite of our dear Queen Sansa in the North. Queen Sansa will be a special guest judge for this episode, if the contestants nail this dish they are sure to gain her favor. If they don't, she may send them to the dogs.
Direwolf bread - This bread is beloved by many and created by our host Hot Pie. Be sure to get this right or you may find yourself facing no one.
Weasel soup - A famed broth from the kitchen of Harrenhal where no one knows if a weasel is in the soup or the one making the soup. Guests beware if this is your fare, for the end is near.
Frey pie - A pie created by our second host Wyman Manderly to remind us all the North Remembers. This pie is best served to your enemies cold.
Jojen paste - Our contestants won't be quite sure about the ingredients needed for this treat but it is rumored to awaken gifts that are found inside you. Are the red threads just weirwood sap or do they hint at something more?
Our contestants have reason to keep an eye on each other as they learn that in order to win - you must be ready to sacrifice all.
MaesterChef will be launching 1 June 2021, at 7PM EST on our newest streaming service BraavosTV.
Last year the mod team for r/asoiaf was approached by HBO to share pitches for new productions. We're excited to finally be able to share them with you. HBO is also looking for future submissions and they are excited to see more ideas from this community.
![](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="750" height="785"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg>)
202
Euron's strangely devoted relationship with Cersei Lannister from the show is actually based on a future in book relationship with Daenerys, and you can tell due to Euron's obsession with Cersei's child.
In the books, Euron has no interest in Cersei but a borderline obsession with Daenerys. He is seemingly willing to commit the entire naval capacity of the Iron Islands to go get her, even though as Rodrik the Reader points out he would almost certainly lose the majority of his ships in the journey. When the ironborn reject this plan in favor of an attack on the Arbor, he immediately storms off to go drink warlock booze and have consolation sex with Falia Flowers.
While in public Euron claims to be focused on claiming Daenerys's dragons, in private conversation with Victarion he seems to have a different focus: an heir worthy of him.
Balon was mad, Aeron is madder, and Euron is maddest of them all. Victarion was turning to go when the Crow's Eye said, "A king must have a wife, to give him heirs. Brother, I have need of you. Will you go to Slaver's Bay and bring my love to me?"
I had a love once too. Victarion's hands coiled into fists, and a drop of blood fell to patter on the floor. I should beat you raw and red and feed you to the crabs, the same as I did her. "You have sons," he told his brother.
"They are of your body."
"So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the Seastone Chair, much less the Iron Throne. No, to make an heir that's worthy of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware." -The Reaver, AFFC
The weirdness of the phrasing "an heir worthy of him" has been abundantly commented on and while I have an explanation (Euron = AA) it's not really what I want to focus on. What's important is that Euron seems to think that a child with Daenerys Targaryen will have some type of special value that will make his seemingly impossible ambition of world conquest happen.
In this regard Euron is not alone; others seem to regard Daenerys's children as having some sort of special power. Not only the obvious "Stallion That Mounts The World," but also the hypothetical child of Hizdahr and Daenerys.
"We are an old people. Ancestors are important to us. Wed Hizdahr zo Loraq and make a son with him, a son whose father is the harpy, whose mother is the dragon. In him the prophecies shall be fulfilled, and your enemies will melt away like snow." -Daenerys IV, ADWD
But this is specific to Daenerys. No one seems to think Cersei is going to produce any world conquerors. At least in the books. In the show, in S8E4 (ugh), there's this line that seems extremely reminiscent of Euron's talk about "when the kraken weds the dragon."
CERSEI: When the war is won, the Lion shall rule the land, the Kraken shall rule the sea, and our child shall one day rule them all.
Euron spent the better part of two seasons utterly fixated on this goal of making a child with Cersei, and when it (supposedly) arrives Cersei ominously pronounces that it will "rule them all." None of this makes any sense as a thing to come in the books; Euron would not give a single care about a kid he has with Cersei, his treatment of Falia Flowers confirms as much. However, put Daenerys in Cersei's place, and suddenly it's not entirely unreasonable.
For this reason I think the show hints that Euron will be successful in his goal of winning over Daenerys, at least for a time, and being a "villain with good publicity." Together he and Daenerys will be the "heroes of Westeros" pushing back the Others. Euron probably will be responsible for setting the Others loose in the first place, but no one needs to know that.
EURON(to YARA): This is the life. Look at them. Cheering for a Greyjoy. -S7E3
His unswerving devotion to Cersei on the show may actually carry over here as well; it's possible Euron will actually behave genuinely devoted towards Daenerys, whether as a self-interested facade or perhaps even an actual emotional fixation. But his goal, first and foremost, will be the heir worthy of him.
189
Sources very close to the situation tell me that over the course of the past several months George and Rowling have been in regular correspondence, as she has been advising George on the steps she took to actually finsih the Harry Potter story.
Upon realizing that without the help of Rowling, George would never finish ASOIAF on his own, he has decided to recruit Rowling to help carry the story across the finish line.
The following statement has been released by Rowling - "I could not be more thrilled to aid George in finishing his amazing story. I would advise all his readers to especially keep an eye out for deep, momentous revelations regarding certain characters' sexuality. That will be our primary focus in the story moving forward. Just to provide a little tease, I can reveal that Ned & Robert were passionate lovers during Robert's Rebellion. More to follow!"
In a statement released by George - "...I don't give a shit anymore."
164
We complain a lot about things that were changed for the worse or dropped all together. But there were some good changes. The three things I liked a lot that are not in the books are:
The scenes between Arya and Tywin at Harenhall.
Brienne and the Hound fight over Arya (rather than him just dying from the bar fight wound)
And scene is season one between Cersi and Robert, when she asks him if there was ever a chance for them to work out.
148
I do not understand why everybody is clowning on Mace Tyrell? Cersei and Jaime speak about him like he is a useless idiot. Mace's own mother is his biggest hater. Overall though, the Tyrells under Mace's leadership are doing very well for themselves. At the beginning of the war Mace Tyrell wanted his daughter to be queen and for his grandson to be the king one day. He sided with Renly in the beginning. Most of his bannerman stayed loyal to the Tyrell's and followed him into declaring for Renly, even the Florent. Everything looked good, with the combined army of the Reach and the Stormlands, and with Mace's son looking to be the new lord commander of the kingsguard Mace was leading House Tyrell into a good spot. He couldn't have forseen Renly's death. When Renly died Mace made the most of it and found a new way for his daughter to be queen. Mace teamed up with the Lannisters and him and his sons fought on the Blackwater. Mace led House Tyrell to be handsomly rewarded. Loras joined the Kingsguard, Margarery would marry Joffrey, and Garlan would be the new Lord of Brightwater Keep and Mace himself named too the small council. Thousands of Tyrell arrive in King's Landing and he has tremondous influence over the kingdoms. He is able to secure a new marriage between Tommen and Margarery, and by the end of the book, Mace is named Hand of the King and many of his bannerman also join the council. Mace is actually a great leader who led his house into probably the most powerful house by the end of the books.
122
GRRM reads widely, and he references a vast array of sources in his writing. He also has a fondness for classic sci fi and fantasy films (“Forbidden Planet” is his favourite). It seems to me that Daenerys’s sojourn in Qarth has some parallels to Dorothy’s visit to the Emerald City in "The Wizard of Oz” (1939), as well as L. Frank Baum’s original 1900 novel The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
Let’s break it down...
Both Qarth and Oz are surrounded by deadly deserts that make them difficult to reach. Nonetheless, Dorothy/Daenerys eventually arrive at the EmeraldCity/Qarth, a city of wonder and luxury, after a long and arduous journey. These cities are exclusive places, and our heroine is only admitted after some negotiations at the gates. While in the city, she and her companions dwell in luxury, but she grows frustrated: what she really wants is to go back to her home in the West (Kansas or Westeros). The inhabitants of the wondrous city make many promises to aid her in this, but they delay taking any actual action. Eventually, she decides to seek out the city’s Wizard/Warlocks, who dwells in a mysterious building in the heart of the city.
The parallels seem particularly strong between Dorothy’s audience with the Wizard of Oz and Daenerys’s audience with the Undying of Qarth. Daenerys first enters a room in which she encounters “a splendor of wizards” and a “wizard king” including one in “emerald armor,” perhaps a nod to the Emerald City. Like Dorothy at the court of the Wizard of Oz, Daenerys has come to the court of the warlocks seeking answers to her questions and aid in going home. Also like Dorothy, she is at first awe-struck by the “splendor of wizards” in their magnificent chamber. Both are initially fooled by visions of wizardly grandeur. Fortunately, both are also accompanied by a little helper in the form of a small black animal companion – Drogon and Toto. While Dorothy is distracted by the glorious illusory wizard, Toto scampers off into a corner of the audience chamber and pulls back a curtain to reveal that the real “wizard” is actually a feeble old man who hides behind the splendid illusions he has created with trickery (in Baum’s book, Toto reveals the wizard by knocking over a screen). Likewise, while Daenerys is distracted by the glorious visions of the wizards, Drogon attacks the door behind which the real Undying of Qarth are revealed to be lurking - ancient, decrepit, and deceitful - while they project illusory images of mighty wizards to deceive Daenerys.
I think the similarities are there, both in how the respective scenes play out and in the underlying message about the nature of magic, illusion, trickery, and power. It's noteworthy that Dorothy and Daenerys are both fooled, but Drogon and Toto are able to reveal the truth. This could be interpreted in a number of ways. It could be a statement about the susceptibility of human intellect to deceit, while their animal companions instinctively see through the trickery (or, more mundanely, just sniff it out?). Drogon and Toto could also be playing the role of animal guides (very common in myth, fable, and vision quests), or perpetuating the widespread idea that animals can see (or see through) the supernatural.
There are a few other interesting things worth mentioning.
Daenerys is known as “Stormborn” and famously entered the world during a storm. Dorothy’s last name is Gale, a word which literally means a windstorm, and she arrived in Oz during a storm.
Much of Daenerys’s story focuses on her killing the slavers and liberating the slaves in the lands of the East. Dorothy slays the Wicked Witch of the East and liberates the Munchkins who live in the lands of the East from slavery. Here’s the passage that explains this in the book, shortly after Dorothy lands in Oz and crushes the Wicked Witch of the East.
“She was the Wicked Witch of the East, as I said,” answered the little woman. “She has held all the Munchkins in bondage for many years, making them slave for her night and day. Now they are all set free, and are grateful to you for the favor.”
“Who are the Munchkins?” inquired Dorothy.
“They are the people who live in this land of the East where the Wicked Witch ruled.”
The superficial similarity to Daenerys liberating the Meereenchkins (sorry) aren’t hard to see. Of course, there’s still one more Wicked Witch to deal with – the Wicked Witch of the West, who like her sister also holds people in slavery (the Winkies). The Winkies are essentially slave soldiers armed with “sharp spears” (according to Baum’s book) who serve the Wicked Witch, making them good analogues for the Unsullied. Dorothy eventually frees the Winkies, and they then agree to serve her willingly instead. Who could the Wicked Witch of the West herself be? As a green (in the film) old woman who wields power through slavery and has a force of winged monkeys that she sends out to attack her enemies, it’s tempting to see parallels with the Green Grace, who is an old woman associated with the colour green who (perhaps?) commands a force of “harpies” whom she sends out to attack her enemies. It's possible that Daenerys will have to finally defeat the Green Grace to end the last opposition to her liberation of Meereen, just as Dorothy ultimately had to defeat the Wicked Witch to liberate the Winkies. In the book, the Wicked Witch also wears an eyepatch and has a magical eye that can see things others can’t, which brings to mind a certain other eyepatch-wearing magic-user from the distant West who has a mystical eye and may be on an eventual collision course with Daenerys.
Lastly, there are Dorothy’s closest companions. The surprising parallels between Drogon in the House of the Undying and Toto in the Emerald City have already been mentioned. What of the others? This is much more speculative (i.e., total crackpot), but I’ll give it a shot… The Tin Man seems a good fit for Jorah, who often stands out in Essos as an armoured knight. The Tin Man, remember, is looking for a heart, while Jorah’s backstory involves heartbreak and acts of heartlessness (slave-trading), but he gradually reveals himself to be a romantic who follows Daenerys for love, just as beneath his tough armoured exterior the Tin Man was truly sentimental and loving all along. I don’t think it’s hard to guess who the Cowardly Lion is: the Lion of Lannister who is never given credit for his ability to command, but eventually rises to the occasion and shows his true courage (e.g., at the Battle of the Blackwater). Hear him roar! The Scarecrow is trickier, but perhaps there are some very loose parallels with Daario, the commander of the Stormcrows, whose outward jesting and somewhat goofy appearance hides a surprising amount of cunning intelligence. When Dorothy leaves the Emerald City to return home to Kansas, the Scarecrow is appointed the city’s new king. We don’t know what the ultimate fate of book Daario will be, but show Daenerys leaves Meereen in the hands of Daario when she departs the city to return to Westeros.
Anyway, I think there are some clear parallels that are probably too close to be mere coincidence, namely the scenes in which Daenerys/Dorothy meets the Warlocks/Wizard. The rest is a lot more speculative but still fun to think about. As always, I am by no means claiming that any of these parallels are one-for-one character transpositions or that this is somehow the secret key to unlocking all the mysteries of ASOIAF. Most of these nods to other works of literature (and cinema) that GRRM includes in his books are nothing more than that – fun little asides for the enjoyment of knowing readers or just random things that might amuse George himself.
121
I know this will probably get downvoted to hell, but anyway.
Stannis always talks about the law and about his birthright to the throne, while he himself rebelled against the king he swore to defend. This was also pointed out by Davos:
"It is every man's duty to remain loyal to his rightful king, even if the lord he serves proves false," Stannis declared in a tone that brooked no argument.
A desperate folly took hold of Davos, a recklessness akin to madness. "As you remained loyal to King Aerys when your brother raised his banners?" he blurted.
Stannis broke his own rules and now he must face the same consequences: Fighting against people who should be loyal to him, but are not.
103
Placeholder post for the many, many EXCLUSIVE rumors about brand new successor shows and content coming.
Last year the mod team for r/asoiaf was approached by HBO to share pitches for new productions. We're excited to finally be able to share them with you. HBO is also looking for future submissions and they are excited to see more ideas from this community.
The New Successor Shows
(Spoilers Production) Introducing MaesterChef: the latest series from HBO and BraavosTV
(Spoilers Production) HBO and A&E Announce "Hound the Bounty Hunter"
(Spoilers Production) New spicy Game of Thrones Spin-off! Wylde Heart
(Spoilers Production) HBO and Really Useful Group soon to announce Lord's Kiss: The Musical!
(Spoilers Production) JK Rowling to co-write the remainder of ASOIAF with GRRM
(Spoilers Extended) Winter is coming!.. at least part of it. Bantam To Split WINDS Into Six
(Spoilers Production) Coming this summer to court tv: All Men Must...Serve?
(Spoilers Production) HBO and BraavosTV announce new GoT spinoff "Below Deck: Reaver's Fleet"
100
As someone who has seen TV show I thought I would find small differences here and there but damn. The way Kevan spoke to Cersei in that chapter. He absolutely destroyed her. So far I thought of Kevan as submissive brother of Tywin, kind of "do what you are told" guy. No idea where I got that impression but after that chapter I got very intrested in this guy. The difference between his and Cerseis cunning and intelect is stark in comparison. I am happy books can surprise me in such a positive way. :)
97
It is well accepted Arya and Lyanna Stark share both physical and temperamental features but the similarities between aunt and niece go far beyond looks and riding skills. AGOT, ACOK and ASOS are crawling with clues but, when going through the sheer horror of Arya's time in the Riverlands, it could be very hard to remember she was not the first Stark girl who got lost/abducted near Harrenhal.
THE KNIGHT OF THE LAUGHING TREE
The first parallel can be found at the very beginning of AGOT when eight years old Arya steps up to defend her friend Micah and gives rince Joffrey a lesson to remember, with nothing more than a wooden stick. It is not unlike Lyanna chasing Howland Reed's attackers with her wooden sword and donning the Knight of the Laughing Tree's identity to get him some moral retribution afterwards.
"Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her." AGOT, Arya II
In her last chapter of "Steel and Snow" the shadow of womanly knighthood also leans over Arya:
"Clegane glanced at Arya: "You are going to make her a knight too, Dondarrion? The first eight-year-old girl knight?' "I am twelve," Arya lied loudly, 'and I could be a knight if I wanted."
As brave as they are, Lyanna and Arya's actions end in man hunt and long term consequences. Mad King Aerys will ask for the Kinght of the Laughing Tree to be chased and brought to him for questioning. (Soon to become mad) Queen Cersei sends people to hunt Micah and her own brother to kill Arya.
THE GHOST OF HARRENHAL
At first glance, there is no way Lyanna's honored guest status can match the borderline slavery poor Arya is forced into. One a second look tough...
We know from Arya's ACOK chapters Harrenhal looms large over horizon for days before her party will reach its enormous gates, while coming from the south. The sight can't be much different for Lyanna, while approaching Harrenhal from the north. Arya's thoughts go to Old Nan's stories - as presumably do Lyanna's before her. The stone monstrosity Arya meets for the first time is surrounded by Lannister's troupes. An army of lords and knights has gathered around Harrenhal for the famous tourney, in the Year of the False Spring. Needles to say, both girls are consumed by curiosity, wonder and dread.
"It would be better once they got to Harrenhal, the captives told each other, but Arya was not so certain." ACOK
"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." Eddard IX
I never seen this issue addressed in the fandom but shouldn't we ask what is Lyanna doing so far away from North? In a medieval society a woman's place is at home, especially when young and unmarried. There will be tourneys and young men will flock from all over the realm to fight them, but the women attending these events will be always local. We can see it with the Hand's Tourney - Sansa and Arya attend it only because they are living within KL, but no Bracken, no Frey and no Royce will send daughters to enjoy the festivities. The other two women known to have attended the tourney at Harrenhal are Elia and Ashara, but they where both on business, one as wife to the Crown Prince, the other as her attendant.
It is my opinion, Lyanna had protested so much about the blind match her Father had agreed for her, old lord Stark just sent her to meet Robert, in the hope she will fall for the six feet plus maiden's fantasy and that will be all. (It is often ignored Arya also meets her betrothed - a young Elmer Frey.)
As strange, if not even stranger, is the fact Lyanna doesn't return home when the tourney is done, especially after the shock of her coronation as the Queen of Love and Beauty. Let's imagine you are lord Stark and you just heard about this. You would want your daughter back right away or you will marry her on the spot to prevent any further gossip. Sure, the little brat might invent all sort of reasons to delay her travel and her marriage kind of requires you presence. We have to remember lord Rickard won't be able to travel south until Benjen returns home, because there must always must be a Stark in Winterfell and, as it happens, the false spring has gone as it come, the winter is back and some roads might now be slightly impracticable.
There will always loom the suspicion lord Whent, at Rhaegar's request, offered to shelter Lyanna, but I doubt very much there was any direct correspondence between them at this time. As far as we know, Rhaegar went on with his life and had another child with his wife - Elia's frailty and her children's births timeline make it unlikely she was pregnant at Harrenhal and, for the matter, nobody noticed Rhaegar going past his "pregnant wife" - I am sure the the Baratheon propaganda wouldn't miss such a juicy detail.
While a guest at Harrenhal, Lyanna ponders. Unlike Arya, she daesn't have to work really hard, or at all for the matter. But presumably, very much like Arya she walks the god's wood, thinking about Winterfell and asking herself if she will be able to go back ever again. (We know she will later make a point in having her body brought back in the North.)
By this time she had already met Robert and she is sure she doesn't want to marry him. The fact she might be a little bit taken with Rhaegar Targaryen doesn't help either. She might feel as disempowered as Arya, knowing she is not able to control neither her body nor her future in a world where women are sold and treated as broad mares. She knows the day when her Father will come south is approaching and willing or not she will be forced to accept the marriage and the ensuing marital rape. Unlike Cersei, Lyanna doesn't seem to come to terms with laying on her back and thinking of Rhaegar Targaryen.
Perchance it is not a coincidence GRRM makes a point in bringing the perspective of rape in Arya's last ACOK chapter, in the very dramatic and disgusting goodwife Amabel's speach:
"See there?" Amabel pointed across the yard at Pia. "When this northman falls you'll be where she is." "Let me go." She tried to wrench free, but Amabel only tightened her fingers. "He will fall too, Harrenhal pulls them all down in the end. Lord Tywin's won now, he'll be marching back with all his power, and then it will be his turn to punish the disloyal. And don't think he won't know what you did!" The old woman laughed. "I may have a turn at you myself. Harra had an old broom, I'll save it for you. The handle's cracked and splintery—" ACOK, Arya X
Later that chapter Arya will go to the god's woods as usual (not before having a few words with her now dishonored ex-betrothed: "I hope your princess dies" she said, and run off before he could grab her.") and there, in the silent of the night she hears a wolf howling and the weirwood reminding her, in Ned's voice, who she is. Blame Bloodraven fans, brace yourself, what are the chances the weirwood talked Lyanna into finding her lost identity, too?
FELL UPON STARK
"With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides" TWOIAF
Maester Yandell is big tool of Baratheon propaganda, but sometimes it happens he slips a truth or two. Like when he states Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna not ten leagues away from Harrenhal.
My question is why was Lyanna 10 leagues/56 km (or any other distance for the matter) away from Harrenhal, in the middle of the winter, in the first place? One might argue she was going to attend Brandon’s wedding - but why then no companion of hers is ever mentioned? Might be because she was alone and, instead of going to a wedding, she was running away from one? We have no solid proof in the books but if we try to think with Rickard’s mind for a minute, why bother to travel south twice, for two weddings, when you could have both your kids married to their betrothed in the same ceremony?
For Arya, running from Harrenhal proved to be a bloody business. For Lyanna escape will prove easier and presumably nobody will die during her escape. It is the end of the year, everyone is drunk and a skinny girl on a stolen horse can easily squeeze through a gate nobody cares to guard anymore.
"Every time she looked back, she half expected to see a blaze of torches pouring out the distant gates of Harrenhal." (...) "She was only ten, a skinny girl on a stolen horse, with a dark forest ahead of her and men behind who would gladly cut off her feet. " ASOS, Arya I
Now, let’s imagine the face lord Whent, Lyanna’s host, has made the morning after his guest disappearance when realizing he is about to be held responsible by both Rickard Stark and Robert Baratheon. The poor lord had nothing left to do than to organize some searching parties and send a raven to Dragonstone, demanding help, if not from the prince, at least from Ser Oswald, his Kingsguard baby brother. Long story short, in three to four days, Whent searching efforts will be joined not only by his brother but by a conspicuously worried Rhaegar and his best pal, a certain Arthur Dayne. LC Gerold Hightower might be around, too, but I incline to doubt this.
"Her dreams were red and savage. The Mummers were in them, four at least, a pale Lyseni and a dark brutal axeman from Ib, the scarred Dothraky (...) and Dornishman..." ASOS, Arya I (Why, I wonder who is the pale guy and who is the Dornishman on Lyanna's trail.)
Meantime, while everyone in Harrenhal is burning with anxiety, Lyanna is freezing. Let’s remember the winter had returned and Lyanna, despite her courage and riding skills, won’t be able to take the king's road like any honest traveler. Wherever she decided to go, she will attempt, as Arya does, to find her way through the rivers and woods. Remember how this proves a complicated affair, even for street schooled Arya and during what could count for the beginning of autumn? Lyanna had never been in the position to take care of herself and she will soon get lost in a land she doesn’t know, without food, a decent source of heat and directions.
When we catch up with Arya, in her second chapter of ASOS, six days had passed since she and her friends had finished their stolen food and our runaway Stark is now stealing vegetables from some dead guy's garden - amongst cabbages, a well known symbol of fertility - when a singer's voice reaches to her. Really George, a singer?
"Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho..." (...) "I'll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho." She thought she heard a woodharp too... (...) I'll make her my love and we'll rest in the shade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho."
ASOS, Arya II
Well, I doubt there was any singing the day when a frozen Lyanna was discovered/fell upon by a similarly frozen searching party. I can imagine, knightly vows or not, all seven men would imagine the chastising she would deserve, even Rhaegar, although he might be the only one whose idea of chastising could involve some spanking. Anyway, everybody remember their vows and settle in stead for an exchange of verbal aggression. Lord Whent, who presumably leads the party - is his turf and his guest, remember - decides they will take to escapee to the nearest inn to feed her and then bundle her ASAP for Riverrun, for her Father and brother to deal with her. He doesn't want anything to do with Miss Trouble, anymore, no sir.
As it happens, the Inn at the Crossroads might be the nearest one - if the ten leagues away from Harrenhal clue is true. Arya herself will be taken to the more remote Inn of the Kneeling Man, which brings the poetic vibes of Starks yielding to Targaryens, but, if an honest traveler will meet up with Lyanna and her captors,by this time, there will be nothing yielding in her attitude.
This honest traveler, lets call it Petyr, in honor of the Braavosi sellsword present at the Inn in Arya II, will notice a very dirty and uncooperative highborn lady, whose features and maybe pin cloak will tell on her identity, being held hostage by seven very dirty men, amongst whom two are wearing white cloaks and a thrid, the one drooling over the captive, is sporting long silvery now unwashed hair.
THE MARRIAGE
All Arya's ASOS chapters are crawling with marriages references. She and the band of outlaws are traveling from sept to sacred weirwood grove and back to sept and once they even hit a brothel. The same one where mighty Robert Baratheon sampled all the girls on his way to save the woman he loved, but let's not get away of ourselves.
In Arya III, Hot Pie won't go further with the rest of the party. In Lyanna's story is to be expected lord Whent and his men will call quits, too. Whent won't find any pleasure in meeting with Lyanna's relatives in this circumstances and will be most happy to let Rhaegar and his KG to deliver Miss Trouble to her brother's wedding, and perchance, hers, at Riverrun. What can go wrong?
Well, first and foremost, Miss Trouble will try to run again. In Arya III, her niece tries too. the only difference being one tries to run from Riverrun and the other wants to reach it.
"Captive. Arya took a breath to still her soul. (...) And then she was in the open field, and running. (...) ...and there was Harwin six yards back and gaining. No, she thought, no, he can't, not him, it isn't fair. (...) "You ride like a northman, milady... (...) Your aunt was the same."" ASOS, Arya III
The only man in her party Arya won't kill or hurt is Harwin. The same is true for Lyanna and Rhaegar. Might be she wasn't nice to him until this point in the story, but she is still secretly fancying him and, soon enough, she might understand they are not bound for Riverrun, after all.
"We're going the wrong way" Arya had already noticed at the beginning of the chapter.
The wedding the deceitful Rhaegar Targaryen is taken Lyanna is neither Brandon's nor Robert's. In my opinion, Rhaegar had two whole weeks since the beginning of this crisis to think it through. A bookish boy like him will notice a parallel between his Queen of Love and Beauty and his own great-great-great- grandmother, then princess Alysanne, betrothed against her will with a Baratheon whoremonger. What did Alysanne? She run to her brother. What did her brother? He married her on the spot. Of course he did, because he wasn't married, which Rhaegar is. But, since we are... slightly in the realm of tinfoil, I would presume, by this time, Rhaegar's other friend, Gerold Hightower, is already two weeks in Oldtown negotiating an annulment with the Highsepton, presumably a Hightower himself. They kind of like to keep in the family, in the Starry Sept, if you get my meaning.
Arya IV is a particularly sexually charged chapter. Much and more is said on the willingness of the local girls to undress for singers - really, George? - and on how often this ends in pregnancy. Considering Arya is ten by this time, the steaminess surrounding her seems... quite inappropriate. It is true she has witnessed rapes and much worse in ACOK, but... something still feels wrong.
"I'll almost be a woman soon. I'll be one-and-ten. " "Best watch out I don't marry you, then."
"I look like an oak tree, with all these stupid acorns." "Nice, though. A nice oak tree." He stepped closer, and sniffed at her. "You even smell nice for a change." (...) Arya shoved him back against the anvil and made to run, but Gendry caught her arm. She stuck a foot between his legs and tripped him, but he yanked her down with him, and they rolled across the floor of the smithy. He vas very strong, but she was quicker. Every time he tried to hold her still she wriggled free and punched him. Gendry only laughed at the blows, which made her mad. He finally caught both of her wrists in one hand and started to tickle her with the other, so Arya slammed her knee between his legs and wrenched free." ASOS, Arya IV
Whatever impression this passage leaves us, the singer distracts us with a very interesting choice of verses right away.
"My featherbed is deep and soft, and there I'll lay you down, I'll dress you all in yellow silk, and on your head a crown. For you shall be my lady love, and I shall be your lord. I'll always keep you warm safe, and guard you with my sword. (...) And how she smiled, and how she laughed, the maiden of the tree. She spun away and said to him, no featherbed for me. I'll wear a gown of golden leaves, and bind my hair with grass, But you can be my forest love, and me your forest lass." Also ASOS, Arya IV
Maybe is not about ten years old Arya after all. A crown, lady love, keeping warm (in Dorne?), a laughing maiden of the tree - I don't know about Jenny, but this definitely is Lyanna's song and it is highly plausible George is squeezing it in as a reminder there was no abduction, no rape and no sex for the sake of prophecy only.
Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other. Old good blind cheesy love. They didn't do anything about it so sexual tension existed between them since the tourney at Harrenhal. George said Rhaegar was left "lovestruck". If little Aegon was conceived in the aftermath of their meeting it is highly possible to owe his short princely life to the said unsolved feelings. Elia might not be able to have children anymore but we'll be wrong to presume this is the only reason why he looks for annulment/separation. Chances are, in time, we are going to discover plenty of technicalities that will allow Rhaegar to divorce, but the real human explanation behind his behavior could apply to any modern man who married before finding love. Love is the death of duty, after all.
Lyanna's story goes a little deeper than Rhaegar's. She stands for all the women who had suffered for hundreds and thousands of years in the real world, trapped in patriarchal environments where they were practically owned by their male relatives. Unfortunately, the hate her character receives in the fandom is the living proof toxic masculinity is still rooted deep in some hearts and minds today.
But back to the story, little hints to Lyanna's journey can be found in any other Arya's ASOS chapter, but the biggest and the most important parallels should be found in Arya's last chapter, the one when she finally reaches the wedding... the Red Wedding... only to find out it was all for naught, her mother and brother are dead and she will probably never go home ever again.
Those who are claiming Rhaegar and Lyanna hid callously in some warm corner of Dorne while her family was butchered by the Mad King might want to reconsider their opinionsLyanna's last wish is to be buried with her Father and brother. Rhaegar can't bring himself to deprive Aerys of Jamie, his leverage on Tywin. Those are not the action of callous selfish people who don't give a fig about their close relatives.
What happens, in my opinion, is Rhaegar thinks they are going to pull this the way Jaehaerys and Alysanne did before them. They will get married and nobody will be able to do anything about it. While they hide waiting for the Highsepton blessing, news might reach them Brandon went nuts and got arrested. Another reason to hurry with their marriage, but not solid enough to leave their hiding. For now, Aerys waits Rickard to come south and explain his son's behaviour. Rickard has been Aerys friend, as Steffon annd Tywin were, they fought together on the Stepstones, they planned to build another Wall... Why would anyone suspect Aerys will ever harm Rickard?
Presumably a marriage takes place - as a marriage takes place, in the end, at the Twins. It would fit too well into GRRM's world to have the newly weds happily celebrating their union while some of their relatives get butchered near by.
Arya has managed to escape Harrenhal, after all, as did Lyanna before her, but at the end of their journeys there is only death. A Mother and brother for Arya, a Father and brother for Lyanna. With ashes in their mouths, they will disappear for a while. Arya across the narrow sea, Lyanna in Dorne - the only place she could be safe for a while if Aerys decides to have her murdered too or kept as a hostage, alongside his other daughter in law.
I can only hope these sets of parallels end truly here and, come spring - A Dream of Spring - no Needle will be found between a frozen Arya's fingers and no "promise me, Jon" will follow suit.
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News and discussions relating to George R. R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" novels, his Westeros-based short stories, "Game of Thrones" and all things ASOIAF - but with particular emphasis on the written series.
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